Naruto was misleading

[Made in Heaven]

Bolt will return to how the series TRULY should have been.

 

[The Necromancer]

Two prophecies? The only prophecy I recall was that he would be the blue-eyed, blonde-haired boy who'd unite the Bijuu.

A prophecy=/=destiny. Prophecy is guess-work. Destiny means that you have no choice.

Destiny would mean that Naruto could have sat on his ass all day everyday eating chips and reading Icha Icha while working in the ramen shop and still would have saved the world, which isn't true.

The series had the message that no one is bound by "fate," and that if you worked hard, you can change your fate. That's what Naruto did.

Naruto was prophesied to unite the Bijuu, and was also prophesied to bring about change in the form of great peace or great destruction. Both were prophesies made by the Toad Sage, which is why it's easy to forget that there were two, especially considering that both prophesies were made about Naruto, but were explained to a third party.

Prophesy is just the viewing of destiny.

It's all very technical and philosophical, but at the end of the day, Naruto was going to be great. Period. That greatness manifested itself through hard work, yes, but it had to happen one way or another. One can be destined to work hard, that does not make it any less predetermined.

You believe that Naruto rose above his destiny to be a failure, but that's not what Ashura represented. Asura did not represent failure or weakness, he represented awoken strength through the power of bonds and friendship. Naruto perfectly embodied everything Ashura stood for while simultaneously fulfilling his destiny as prophesied by the Great Toad Sage.

Ashura's power bloomed after being acknowledged by those he cared for, the same as Naruto. That's what they both stood for, and that's why Naruto traveled the path of his fate to a tee, which still spits in the face of Part 1's assertion that destiny and fate do not matter. Naruto remains the only character unable to change his fate by the end of the series.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Naruto was prophesied to unite the Bijuu, and was also prophesied to bring about change in the form of great peace or great destruction. Both were prophesies made by the Toad Sage, which is why it's easy to forget that there were two, especially considering that both prophesies were made about Naruto, but were explained to a third party.

These are the same prophecies.

Prophesy is just the viewing of destiny.

It's all very technical and philosophical, but at the end of the day, Naruto was going to be great. Period. That greatness manifested itself through hard work, yes, but it had to happen one way or another. One can be destined to work hard, that does not make it any less predetermined.

Not really. The definition of prophecy is literally:

proph·e·cy
ˈpräfəsē/Submit
noun
a prediction.

Definition of prophecy
plural prophecies also prophesies
1
: an inspired utterance of a prophet
2
: the function or vocation of a prophet; specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose
3
: a prediction of something to come

Definition of prophet
1
: one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such as
a often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
b capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah
2
: one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3
: one who foretells future events : predictor
4
: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

Notice the keywords are prediction and predictor. Even if the Sage Toad had the power to see the future and saw that Naruto would save the world, that's still not destiny.

You believe that Naruto rose above his destiny to be a failure,

No I do not. There is no destiny, at all, is what I'm saying. Nothing was decided for them, everything happened as a result of their decisions.

but that's not what Ashura represented. Asura did not represent failure or weakness, he represented awoken strength through the power of bonds and friendship. Naruto perfectly embodied everything Ashura stood for while simultaneously fulfilling his destiny as prophesied by the Great Toad Sage.

And? This doesn't change that Naruto still had to actually make the decision to associate himself with those he did like he did. It doesn't change that Naruto had to decide to train like he did.

What you're saying implies that no matter what course of life Naruto took, then he would have saved the world. That's not true, so it's not destiny.

Ashura's power bloomed after being acknowledged by those he cared for, the same as Naruto. That's what they both stood for, and that's why Naruto traveled the path of his fate to a tee, which still spits in the face of Part 1's assertion that destiny and fate do not matter.

Part 1 NEVER said fate doesn't matter. You're thinking of fate as synonymous with "destiny." I am talking about fate as "the final outcome," which is what Part 1 was also talking about.

The message was "If you don't like your fate(expected final outcome), then work hard and change that."

 

[The Necromancer]

These are the same prophecies.

They're not. One was foretold in Hagoromo's day, and the other not until Jiraiya's. But okay.

Not really. The definition of prophecy is literally:

proph·e·cy
ˈpräfəsē/Submit
noun
a prediction.

Definition of prophecy
plural prophecies also prophesies
1
: an inspired utterance of a prophet
2
: the function or vocation of a prophet; specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose
3
: a prediction of something to come

Definition of prophet
1
: one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such as
a often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
b capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah
2
: one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3
: one who foretells future events : predictor
4
: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

Notice the keywords are prediction and predictor. Even if the Sage Toad had the power to see the future and saw that Naruto would save the world, that's still not destiny.

I really don't care about official definitions of semantics. Were either of the prophesies wrong? No. Did the Sage see the future? Yes. What is Destiny? The future.

No I do not. There is no destiny, at all, is what I'm saying. Nothing was decided for them, everything happened as a result of their decisions.

Decisions already destined to happen. Decisions which had already been predicted 1000 years before Naruto was born. That's the cool thing about destiny, you literally cannot disprove it, so there's really no use in trying.

And? This doesn't change that Naruto still had to actually make the decision to associate himself with those he did like he did. It doesn't change that Naruto had to decide to train like he did.

You don't really get this destiny thing...

What you're saying implies that no matter what course of life Naruto took, then he would have saved the world. That's not true, so it's not destiny.

Again. Not how destiny works. Naruto was destined to work hard and save the world and unite the bijuu and blah blah blah. He couldn't have done that without training, which is why he trained. Because he was destined to, the same way I was destined to explain this to you again right now.

It's literally not a concept humans can fathom. Free Will is not lessened by destiny, because destiny has already determined free will's existence.

Part 1 NEVER said fate doesn't matter. You're thinking of fate as synonymous with "destiny." I am talking about fate as "the final outcome," which is what Part 1 was also talking about.

The message was "If you don't like your fate(expected final outcome), then work hard and change that."

If you're differentiating Fate and Destiny by claiming fate happens at the end, then you're not looking at the big picture. There is no "final outcome" until you are dead. Every iota of time is destined and fated. They are literally synonymous, and nothing you have said changes the fact that Naruto lived his life exactly as planned and exactly as foretold.

 

[123fire]

Still best anime out there

 

[Punk Hazard]

They're not. But whatever.

Was Naruto uniting the Bijuu not what led to him saving the world?

I really don't care about official definitions of semantics. Were either of the prophesies wrong? No. Did the Sage see the future? Yes. What is Destiny? The future.

That is not what destiny is. Destiny is the notion that what happens to you is determined by an outside force and is beyond your control. In order for an outcome to be destiny, then that outcome needs to happen regardless of the decisions you make. I ask you this, if Naruto decided to not be a ninja and spend his life drawing potatoes, would he have saved the world?

Decisions already destined to happen. Decisions which had already been predicted 1000 years before Naruto was born.

You don't really get this destiny thing...



Again. Not how destiny works. Naruto was destined to work hard and save the world and unite the bijuu and blah blah blah. He couldn't have done that without training, which is why he trained. Because he was destined to, the same way I was destined to explain this to you again right now.

This makes absolutely no sense. By this logic, if there was no prophecy for Naruto the save the world and he did it anyways, I could say "Naruto was destined to train hard and save the world, so the manga falls flat."

The problem here is you're assigning destiny to where destiny isn't there.

The entire concept of destiny is that your decisions don't matter for the outcome, and yet you're saying that particular decisions Naruto made were part of destiny? YOU'RE the one that doesn't get destiny because you stupidly reject the definition of destiny in favor of one you made up

 

[Inmate]

These are the same prophecies.



Not really. The definition of prophecy is literally:

proph·e·cy
ˈpräfəsē/Submit
noun
a prediction.

Definition of prophecy
plural prophecies also prophesies
1
: an inspired utterance of a prophet
2
: the function or vocation of a prophet; specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose
3
: a prediction of something to come

Definition of prophet
1
: one who utters divinely inspired revelations: such as
a often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Bible
b capitalized : one regarded by a group of followers as the final authoritative revealer of God's will Muhammad, the Prophet of Allah
2
: one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3
: one who foretells future events : predictor
4
: an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

Notice the keywords are prediction and predictor. Even if the Sage Toad had the power to see the future and saw that Naruto would save the world, that's still not destiny.


No I do not. There is no destiny, at all, is what I'm saying. Nothing was decided for them, everything happened as a result of their decisions.



And? This doesn't change that Naruto still had to actually make the decision to associate himself with those he did like he did. It doesn't change that Naruto had to decide to train like he did.

What you're saying implies that no matter what course of life Naruto took, then he would have saved the world. That's not true, so it's not destiny.


Part 1 NEVER said fate doesn't matter. You're thinking of fate as synonymous with "destiny." I am talking about fate as "the final outcome," which is what Part 1 was also talking about.

The message was "If you don't like your fate(expected final outcome), then work hard and change that."

Fate is a future already set for you, regardless of the decisions you make along the way. Even if you had the reputation of being a failure and somehow changed that, it was fate you would change that perception of you along the way. Fate is more something that is bound to happen, more or less because of your decisions, but mostly, it's a concept of "what is inevtibaly to come", regardless of what happens between the time you were born and the time you die.

It's a metaphor of death. You can decide to be an alcoholic or decide not to. Fatefully, you'll die. So does fate work the same way, those decisions you make, irrespective of wanting to or not change it. If you were destined to undergo the sort of metamorphosis Naruto kind of went into becoming an epic idol of his village, then you can't rewrite it.

It's in the same way applicable with Naruto's prophecy being this blue-eyed blonde who would befriend all the tailed beasts and all. He could have been like Gaara before he'd changed, or gave up on his dreams or whatever, but fate was fate. He couldn't change even if he wanted to. Also, with Naruto it wasn't really a prophesy. The Toads had had a vision or dream of him. So his case was more a surety.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Fate is a future already set for you, regardless of the decisions you make along the way.

This is one definition of fate. It's also not the one that I was referring to.

Even if you had the reputation of being a failure and somehow changed that, it was fate you would change that perception of you along the way.

Or you changed your fate. Like I said to Necro, this isn't really much of an argument.

It's a metaphor of death. You can decide to be an alcoholic or decide not to. Fatefully, you'll die. So does fate work the same way, those decisions you make, irrespective of wanting to or not change it. If you were destined to undergo the sort of metamorphosis Naruto kind of went into becoming an epic idol of his village, then you can't rewrite it.

Yes, but what proof is there that this concept exists in the Naruto world? No, a prophecy doesn't prove that, since a prophecy is a guess of what will happen. Where is the proof that an external force decided for Naruto that he would succeed where he succeeded, and that would have happened regardless of his choices?

If you want to assert that destiny applies to Naruto, you need proof of that external force making the decision for Naruto.

 

[Genocide]

Still best anime out there

watch hunter x hunter 2011 my equal first

 

[Made in Heaven]

Remember when Naruto was about how the shinobi system was flawed, vile, and corrupted?

Gotta love how Naruto ends with the main character being part of that unchanged system.

 

[shelke]

Naruto's destiny for greatness was set in stone. He developed into a paradox of his part I outing. Another reason why he's a terrible character.

 

[Made in Heaven]

Naruto's destiny for greatness was set in stone. He developed into a paradox of his part I outing. Another reason why he's a terrible character.

Neji was killed cause he defied everything Naruto became in Part 2, both the character and series. Destiny became a component in everything.

 

[Inmate]

This is one definition of fate. It's also not the one that I was referring to.


Or you changed your fate. Like I said to Necro, this isn't really much of an argument.



Yes, but what proof is there that this concept exists in the Naruto world? No, a prophecy doesn't prove that, since a prophecy is a guess of what will happen. Where is the proof that an external force decided for Naruto that he would succeed where he succeeded, and that would have happened regardless of his choices?

If you want to assert that destiny applies to Naruto, you need proof of that external force making the decision for Naruto.

With so many things that happened that pushed Naruto towards his fate, it's kind of futile trying to identify those forces, but to mention one that's sort of an outlier, it's when Minato somehow knew Naruto would need the power to defeat the enemy, as it was of course because of the acquisition of this power that Naruto was able to face off against strong opponents like Madara and Obito, and change the direction of the war.

 

[Punk Hazard]

With so many things that happened that pushed Naruto towards his fate, it's kind of futile trying to identify those forces, but to mention one that's sort of an outlier, it's when Minato somehow knew Naruto would need the power to defeat the enemy, as it was of course because of the acquisition of this power that Naruto was able to face off against strong opponents like Madara and Obito, and change the direction of the war.

But...each one of those things can be brought back to his choices...direct consequences of his choices...for it to be destiny, you'd have to prove it'd have happened without those choices.

 

[Inmate]

But...each one of those things can be brought back to his choices...direct consequences of his choices...for it to be destiny, you'd have to prove it'd have happened without those choices.

He pretty much didn't have a choice with getting Kurama.

 

[Punk Hazard]

He pretty much didn't have a choice with getting Kurama.

So? He was the ONLY person there. Minato needed to do it so that Tobi wouldn't find Kurama again and he wouldn't rampage. Just having Kurama didn't seal his destiny either, considering Kurama's other Jinchuriki didn't do it.

 

[shelke]

Neji was killed cause he defied everything Naruto became in Part 2, both the character and series. Destiny became a component in everything.

Neji accepted his second-rate destiny, though; it's cool to be a chattel for Naruto's mojo!

 

[SixPathsMike101]

Still best anime out there

One close to my heart indeed my dude

 

[SixPathsMike101]

So? He was the ONLY person there. Minato needed to do it so that Tobi wouldn't find Kurama again and he wouldn't rampage. Just having Kurama didn't seal his destiny either, considering Kurama's other Jinchuriki didn't do it.

Yeah kurama's other jinchuriki were not reincarnations of Ashura Otsutsuki were they? :Sparks:

 

[gerizzyYMcrew]

Naruto's destiny for greatness was set in stone. He developed into a paradox of his part I outing. Another reason why he's a terrible character.

Neji was killed cause he defied everything Naruto became in Part 2, both the character and series. Destiny became a component in everything.

too bad the concept of "destiny" doesn't exist