[Theory] Naruto Used a form of Banbutsu Sōzō [Creation of All Things]

Vega · May 10, 2014

apsri said:
He breathed life into the eye socket, which, missing an eye, was "dead". He did the same for Guy, breathed life into his body so he won't die, despite using Eight Gates.

I don't view it that way but that's an interesting viewpoint.

Aim64C · May 10, 2014

Vega said:
No, Madara pulled Kakashi's eye out of his socket. Meaning Kakashi lacked his eyeball in his socket which Naruto created in thin air. Rejuvenate literally means to take something already present and restore it. So Naruto didn't rejuvenate Kakashi's eye as that would mean fixing up a damaged eye which /= making a new eye.

This betrays a failure to understand Eastern concepts of the human body.

Naruto did not create the eye from nothing (as he specifically states). I will admit a folly on my own part. Naruto Rejuvenated Kakashi's body/being - which lacked his proper eye. This is consistent with Eastern healing practices that focus on reinforcing the body rather than treating the symptom. The belief is that injury and other damages are caused by disruptions in the flow of energy within the body - by restoring the body to its proper harmony, all injuries can be recovered from.

Much of this is rather irrelevant to the specific case, and the Hyuuga are irrelevant with this specific case. I understand you like them and this is interesting stuff but they serve no purpose with Naruto's ability regardless if you want them to or not.

You are in no position to make such statements.

You have to understand that the Hyuuga cut straight to the very genesis of Naruto. Not just their relevance to the plot development of Naruto, but the very impetus for Kishimoto to create the series:

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The Hyuuga were developed directly from the Taoist legends, teachings, and beliefs that Kishimoto used to form the series.

This is straight-out wrong, Kishi incorporates all Religions. He has taken countless instances with Christianity such as Original Sin, Adam and Eve, Abel and Cain, and the serpentine Satan just to name a few.

These are hardly unique concepts to Christianity.

Tales of brothers fighting and killing each other go about as far back as procreation, itself:

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The concept of "original sin" is, also, not unique to Christianity. Taoism and Buddhism directly refer to human beings as being instinctive and impure creatures who are trapped in a cycle of destruction, suffering, creation, bliss, etc (I greatly simplified it). The goal of each is to bring people into a state of awareness of these natural cycles and to achieve peace and happiness during all cycles.

While there are many common themes among all religions with deep roots, you are simply reading into Kishimoto's work that which is familiar to you, as opposed to inferring where he actually drew his inspiration from. Keep in mind that Christianity is still seen as a somewhat foreign influence in Japan, and is also a very minor percentage of the spiritual/religious identification of the population.

Kishimoto did not solely gather his inspirations from Japanese context solely as clear indications of other ideologies are present. And again, much of this stated here is irrelevant and off-topic.

*rolls eyes*

Kishimoto drew largely from Eastern religions, cultures, and influences. Japan had many beliefs culminating in Shintoism once the principles of Taoism drifted across from China. Buddhism also became very influential as, by that time, Taoism and Buddhism were largely considered two perspectives of the same thing.

There seems to be some influence drawn from India - but western portions of China inherited a number of the arts of the Indian culture without really being Indian - so it gets a little blurry.

And I have studied religions so I am well aware of what I talk about.

You know... At some point, you realize that it is useless to talk about the depth and breadth of your studies. If they were really relevant or you had the capacity to utilize the information garnered, then it would show in your ability to discuss the issue.

Pure speculation without justification; Sasuke wants to destroy the world is something you just made up.

Actually, it's not.

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It is a theory that goes relatively deep.

You're basing all your assumptions off from Taoist perceptions of the world, and rather out of context and irrelevant again. And that's your opinion to what the moon symbolizes which again you linked to your idea of the Naruto philosophy linked with Taoism.

The thing about useful models is that they are consistent and reliable for predictions. Naruto is not supposed to be 'the' Sage of Six Paths. He is supposed to lead the world in the right direction. Creation of All Things is a heretical practice of the Outer Path. It is disruptive and purely destructive. It is also not entirely certain as to whether or not it was an ability of the Rinnegan - as, surely, anyone with Yin-Yang release could perform Creation of All Things.

Speculation and your own opinion; as there's equal evidence to support its the sun. And the latter portion is pure speculation on your behalf.

There is no evidence to support it is the Sun, because it isn't the Sun.

The only evidence it is the Sun is because it hasn't bee specifically stated that it is the full moon, representing the element Wind and the position of First Daughter (interesting correlation, there).

The Full Moon means: "Return"

"Return ䷗ means coming back.......The way to do it involves working in sequence, restoring it gradually; one cannot restore it immediately, or even if one does restore it immediately it cannot be stabilized. It is necessary to first refine oneself and master the mind,
-- Liu Yiming (he Taoist I Ching, hexagram 24 Return) "

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Again this is out of context, given the current situation the reality is that Naruto is using Ninjutsu and Senjutsu to fight his battle against Madara. Ninshuu comes to the broader scheme of things.

You're really not all that bright.

It is not taken out of context, it is consistent. See here:

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The theory has changed a bit over time, as you can see, but the overall idea is the same. Even though Ninjutsu is heretical and brought about unnaturally - it has also become a natural part of the ninja culture and world. But, you have already indicated why Naruto's new ability is not based in Ninjutsu.

Ninshu is to play a much bigger role in the development of the story following the completion of the war arc - the "big picture." Which is why it is being developed, now.

Creation of All Things stands in contempt of the world that currently exists. It rejects the natural order and the natural progression of events.

My friend you need to cut down on this arbitrary Hyuuga incorporation.

You need to understand that the Hyuuga and Uzumaki are the key to this entire series. They are the Heaven and Earth. Which cuts to the core of how Naruto's character will develop.

Again, your post is filled with speculation and your own personal twist to the Manga.

I fail to see how it is distinctive from your own speculation and personal 'twists' on the manga.

Well, it's actually entirely different. You see, I took the most immediate story developments (including the Sage's talk of Ninshu), and used those to compile the theory for Naruto using a form of Ninshu to perform the healing, as opposed to Creation of All Things. Then, I reinforced the notion with the deeper plot of Naruto by illustrating it to be consistent with the progression of Naruto's character as well as Creation of All Things being in conflict with the message of Naruto.

Now, you call that a "personal twist" - however, my 'native' religion is most closely identified with the Presbyterian denomination of Protestant Christianity. My knowledge and study of Taoism is largely born from an interest in the series and from the structure of the series, itself. I did not 'twist' the manga to anything native of my person or insist that it contains elements of what I find to be familiar.

I don't mean to sound blunt as I do think some of what you wrote is interesting, but this isn't relevant and these are your own conclusions based from inconclusive Taoist beliefs.

Stow the false decency, kiddo. Your constant dictation of what is an isn't relevant with nothing more than your holier-than-thou approach betrays any illusion of you being a decent human being.

Perhaps we can continue this conversation another time in VM, but I specifically request we not fill the thread with these menial statements anymore. Thank you.

Denied.

Refer to my above information. Kakashi had no eyeball in his socket. Fixing an eye /=/ making an eye.

Refer to Eastern concepts of medicine, and Naruto's own statements. He took a piece of Kakashi. He did not create an eye. It's even improper to say that Naruto rejuvenated Kakashi's body/eye. Kakashi did that. Naruto was simply acting as a conductor to a band.

But, if you want an example of irrelevance - your theory and speculation as to what Kishimoto is going to do in his story is quite irrelevant to what will happen. While your theory is not entirely without logic or base, successful or unsuccessful defense of either of our theories/models will have any impact on the course of the manga.

That, little buddy, is the meaning of 'irrelevant.'

Vega · May 10, 2014

Aim64C said:
This betrays a failure to understand Eastern concepts of the human body.

Naruto did not create the eye from nothing (as he specifically states). I will admit a folly on my own part. Naruto Rejuvenated Kakashi's body/being - which lacked his proper eye. This is consistent with Eastern healing practices that focus on reinforcing the body rather than treating the symptom. The belief is that injury and other damages are caused by disruptions in the flow of energy within the body - by restoring the body to its proper harmony, all injuries can be recovered from.

You are in no position to make such statements.

You have to understand that the Hyuuga cut straight to the very genesis of Naruto. Not just their relevance to the plot development of Naruto, but the very impetus for Kishimoto to create the series:

You must be registered for see images

The Hyuuga were developed directly from the Taoist legends, teachings, and beliefs that Kishimoto used to form the series.

These are hardly unique concepts to Christianity.

Tales of brothers fighting and killing each other go about as far back as procreation, itself:
You must be registered for see links

The concept of "original sin" is, also, not unique to Christianity. Taoism and Buddhism directly refer to human beings as being instinctive and impure creatures who are trapped in a cycle of destruction, suffering, creation, bliss, etc (I greatly simplified it). The goal of each is to bring people into a state of awareness of these natural cycles and to achieve peace and happiness during all cycles.

While there are many common themes among all religions with deep roots, you are simply reading into Kishimoto's work that which is familiar to you, as opposed to inferring where he actually drew his inspiration from. Keep in mind that Christianity is still seen as a somewhat foreign influence in Japan, and is also a very minor percentage of the spiritual/religious identification of the population.

*rolls eyes*

Kishimoto drew largely from Eastern religions, cultures, and influences. Japan had many beliefs culminating in Shintoism once the principles of Taoism drifted across from China. Buddhism also became very influential as, by that time, Taoism and Buddhism were largely considered two perspectives of the same thing.

There seems to be some influence drawn from India - but western portions of China inherited a number of the arts of the Indian culture without really being Indian - so it gets a little blurry.

You know... At some point, you realize that it is useless to talk about the depth and breadth of your studies. If they were really relevant or you had the capacity to utilize the information garnered, then it would show in your ability to discuss the issue.

Actually, it's not.
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It is a theory that goes relatively deep.

The thing about useful models is that they are consistent and reliable for predictions. Naruto is not supposed to be 'the' Sage of Six Paths. He is supposed to lead the world in the right direction. Creation of All Things is a heretical practice of the Outer Path. It is disruptive and purely destructive. It is also not entirely certain as to whether or not it was an ability of the Rinnegan - as, surely, anyone with Yin-Yang release could perform Creation of All Things.

There is no evidence to support it is the Sun, because it isn't the Sun.

The only evidence it is the Sun is because it hasn't bee specifically stated that it is the full moon, representing the element Wind and the position of First Daughter (interesting correlation, there).

The Full Moon means: "Return"

"Return ䷗ means coming back.......The way to do it involves working in sequence, restoring it gradually; one cannot restore it immediately, or even if one does restore it immediately it cannot be stabilized. It is necessary to first refine oneself and master the mind,
-- Liu Yiming (he Taoist I Ching, hexagram 24 Return) "

You must be registered for see links

You're really not all that bright.

It is not taken out of context, it is consistent. See here:
You must be registered for see links

The theory has changed a bit over time, as you can see, but the overall idea is the same. Even though Ninjutsu is heretical and brought about unnaturally - it has also become a natural part of the ninja culture and world. But, you have already indicated why Naruto's new ability is not based in Ninjutsu.

Ninshu is to play a much bigger role in the development of the story following the completion of the war arc - the "big picture." Which is why it is being developed, now.

Creation of All Things stands in contempt of the world that currently exists. It rejects the natural order and the natural progression of events.

You need to understand that the Hyuuga and Uzumaki are the key to this entire series. They are the Heaven and Earth. Which cuts to the core of how Naruto's character will develop.

I fail to see how it is distinctive from your own speculation and personal 'twists' on the manga.

Well, it's actually entirely different. You see, I took the most immediate story developments (including the Sage's talk of Ninshu), and used those to compile the theory for Naruto using a form of Ninshu to perform the healing, as opposed to Creation of All Things. Then, I reinforced the notion with the deeper plot of Naruto by illustrating it to be consistent with the progression of Naruto's character as well as Creation of All Things being in conflict with the message of Naruto.

Now, you call that a "personal twist" - however, my 'native' religion is most closely identified with the Presbyterian denomination of Protestant Christianity. My knowledge and study of Taoism is largely born from an interest in the series and from the structure of the series, itself. I did not 'twist' the manga to anything native of my person or insist that it contains elements of what I find to be familiar.

Stow the false decency, kiddo. Your constant dictation of what is an isn't relevant with nothing more than your holier-than-thou approach betrays any illusion of you being a decent human being.

Denied.

Refer to Eastern concepts of medicine, and Naruto's own statements. He took a piece of Kakashi. He did not create an eye. It's even improper to say that Naruto rejuvenated Kakashi's body/eye. Kakashi did that. Naruto was simply acting as a conductor to a band.

But, if you want an example of irrelevance - your theory and speculation as to what Kishimoto is going to do in his story is quite irrelevant to what will happen. While your theory is not entirely without logic or base, successful or unsuccessful defense of either of our theories/models will have any impact on the course of the manga.

That, little buddy, is the meaning of 'irrelevant.'

Lmao, I ain't reading all that fan-fiction; though I did skim over it.
Funny thing is all that nonsense you wrote is still IRRELEVANT and SPECULATION. Difference is I use Manga scans to support my claim while you pull out Taoist nonsense to make your arbitrary Hyuuga assumptions feel important to yourself. Though quite frankly I did expected such of the likes of you Lol. Moreso I was trying to kindly put leave the thread alone with your nonsense, but I guess you took that to your ego. And if anything the only thing your posts show is that you are being uneducated and arrogant. I've seen you before argue with people whilst in reality you don't have the support for your claims. Last time I checked you yourself are not Kishi, so keep your fan-fiction to yourself. You also don't understand the importance of various faiths since you're blinded by your own pitiful Hyuuga obsession. Please do me a favor and vanish/quit wasting my time, I shall part with this quote from John Paul:
"Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it."

Aim64C · May 10, 2014

Vega said:
Lmao, I ain't reading all that fan-fiction; though I did skim over it.
Funny thing is all that nonsense you wrote is still IRRELEVANT and SPECULATION. Difference is I use Manga scans to support my claim while you pull out Taoist nonsense to make your arbitrary Hyuuga assumptions feel important to yourself. Though quite frankly I did expected such of the likes of you Lol. Moreso I was trying to kindly put leave the thread alone with your nonsense, but I guess you took that to your ego. And if anything the only thing your posts shows is that you are being uneducated and arrogant. I've seen you before argue with people whilst in reality you don't have the support for your claims. Last time I checked you yourself are not Kishi, so keep your fan-fiction to yourself. You also don't understand the importance of various faiths since you're blinded by your own pitiful Hyuuga obsession. Please do me a favor and vanish/quit wasting my time, I'll part with a Red donation as well. I shall part with this quote from John Paul:
"Stupidity is also a gift of God, but one mustn't misuse it."

You're quite the interesting person. So close, and yet so far. A young man such as yourself requires a few more trials of being before you'll temper out.

You delude yourself into thinking that the manga scans actually prove your point. They do not.

Naruto specifically states - "I took a piece of Kakashi and, um..."

Even you use this to support your first theory, before reverting to: "He created an eyeball out of thin air" to argue with others who point out that he 'breathed life' into Kakashi.

So which was it?

Did he create an eyeball out of thin air, or did he use a piece of Kakashi?

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Naruto used Ninshu as it was intended.

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Creation of All Things would be a very illogical step for Kishimoto to make regarding Naruto's character development.

Vega · May 10, 2014

Aim64C said:
You're quite the interesting person. So close, and yet so far. A young man such as yourself requires a few more trials of being before you'll temper out.

You delude yourself into thinking that the manga scans actually prove your point. They do not.

Naruto specifically states - "I took a piece of Kakashi and, um..."

Even you use this to support your first theory, before reverting to: "He created an eyeball out of thin air" to argue with others who point out that he 'breathed life' into Kakashi.

So which was it?

Did he create an eyeball out of thin air, or did he use a piece of Kakashi?

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Naruto used Ninshu as it was intended.

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Creation of All Things would be a very illogical step for Kishimoto to make regarding Naruto's character development.

Nice try kiddo, trying to twist my words won't work. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've explicitly stated what he was doing and the latter was my response to the fact that some people that he rejuvenated his eye. Now how about you stop wasting my time as I have no longer the desire to speak you, though it seems you're rather desperate for attention.

Aim64C · May 10, 2014

Vega said:
Nice try kiddo, trying to twist my words won't work. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've explicitly stated what he was doing and the latter was my response to the fact that some people that he rejuvenated his eye. Now how about you stop wasting my time as I have no longer the desire to speak you, though it seems you're rather desperate for attention.

You're not going to address the manga scans and the fact that the story progression has been on that of Ninshu and the concept of connecting people?

Okay.

And, I'm quite sure your time is very valuable. I should be humbled that one such as yourself would even bother to glance at the puny worm that I am.

A lowly worm such as myself is incapable of twisting the words of such a divine being. I am merely perplexed by the inconsistency of saying that Naruto "took a piece of Kakashi" to shifting to "Naruto created it out of thin air."

Creation of All Things does not require something to exist prior to it being done, or one can only assume. But Ninshuu - or some other type of 'connective' reaction, would not create something out of nothing.

You can try to fall back on 'lesser forms' - but it would seem unreasonable to go to the length of "creation of all things." Particularly when Naruto was able to prevent Gai from expiring due to his use of the Eight Gates. Which speaks to a use of connection and interaction with another person's chakra, as opposed to a process of external creation.

I apologize if my interpretation of what happened with Gai qualifies as fanfiction.

Vega · May 10, 2014

Aim64C said:
You're not going to address the manga scans and the fact that the story progression has been on that of Ninshu and the concept of connecting people?

Okay.

And, I'm quite sure your time is very valuable. I should be humbled that one such as yourself would even bother to glance at the puny worm that I am.

A lowly worm such as myself is incapable of twisting the words of such a divine being. I am merely perplexed by the inconsistency of saying that Naruto "took a piece of Kakashi" to shifting to "Naruto created it out of thin air."

Creation of All Things does not require something to exist prior to it being done, or one can only assume. But Ninshuu - or some other type of 'connective' reaction, would not create something out of nothing.

You can try to fall back on 'lesser forms' - but it would seem unreasonable to go to the length of "creation of all things." Particularly when Naruto was able to prevent Gai from expiring due to his use of the Eight Gates. Which speaks to a use of connection and interaction with another person's chakra, as opposed to a process of external creation.

I apologize if my interpretation of what happened with Gai qualifies as fanfiction.

*Sigh*, since you're clearly upset I'll go ahead and end this discussion with you. Naruto "taking" a piece of Kakashi were Naruto words and I mentioned how it could allude to how he took Spiritual Essence via Kakakshi that would be rather weak and decrepit so he would stengthened its spiritual form and then create it in thin air. I'm well aware of what I say junior. In regards to the Ninshuu jargon, its clear as day Hagoromo was explaining how his hopes for Ninshuu were to emotionally and spiritually connect people so they would know and understand one another the minute they were bonded. He also then went on how his Ninshuu wasn't successful and why he adhered to Ashura's way. And yes, majority of what you say is Fanfiction. And I will carry on with my time, as should you since your avatar shows you're from the army so shouldn't you be ummm Idk defending the country instead of arguing people on Narutobase? (Answer that in your head)

Disquiet · May 11, 2014

This is interesting, Vega. I didn't really feel like reading all these posts, I have two questions that may or may not have been answered (though from skimming over the posts, doesn't seem like it).

First question: If Naruto has COAT (a weaker version) that he seems to be using from the emblem on his hand, what do you suspect Sasuke's to be? Though that question would probably derail the thread if we focus too much on it.

However, someone here said that Sasuke and Naruto together could use COAT. While that claim don't have much to support it, it makes sense. They're basically two sides of the same coin, Naruto (Yoton) and Sasuke (Inton).

Second question: While it was stated that COAT creates form from nothingness, it stated in that same page that the bijuu was created from the juubi's chakra. This is also backed up by the fact that the juubi is incomplete (just a shell, really) without the other bijuu. So, one could reasonably say that he took parts of the juubi to create the bijuu.

With that in mind, are you classifying it as a weaker version based on the size/complexity of the entity he creates?

At the very least, I believe it's comparable and maybe even essentially the same as COAT. For example, Preta Path can absorb chakra, so can that guy from the chuunin exams that fought against Sasuke, hell even Shino's bugs can. The ability is the same, just different applications and different names for the techniques (not sure if the last two mentioned even has names for that ability). This is partly why I think it's a reasonable theory, considering we're still in the dark about the ability itself.

Vega · May 11, 2014

Yαмα said:
This is interesting, Vega. I didn't really feel like reading all these posts, I have two questions that may or may not have been answered (though from skimming over the posts, doesn't seem like it).

First question: If Naruto has COAT (a weaker version) that he seems to be using from the emblem on his hand, what do you suspect Sasuke's to be? Though that question would probably derail the thread if we focus too much on it.

However, someone here said that Sasuke and Naruto together could use COAT. While that claim don't have much to support it, it makes sense. They're basically two sides of the same coin, Naruto (Yoton) and Sasuke (Inton).

Second question: While it was stated that COAT creates form from nothingness, it stated in that same page that the bijuu was created from the juubi's chakra. This is also backed up by the fact that the juubi is incomplete (just a shell, really) without the other bijuu. So, one could reasonably say that he took parts of the juubi to create the bijuu.

With that in mind, are you classifying it as a weaker version based on the size/complexity of the entity he creates?

At the very least, I believe it's comparable and maybe even essentially the same as COAT. For example, Preta Path can absorb chakra, so can that guy from the chuunin exams that fought against Sasuke, hell even Shino's bugs can. The ability is the same, just different applications and different names for the techniques (not sure if the last two mentioned even has names for that ability). This is partly why I think it's a reasonable theory, considering we're still in the dark about the ability itself.

How you've been Yama?
First Question:
That's a very good question, and I've had some ideas for thought. Generally, Sasuke also in a sense has a weaker version of COAT. I'd like to say they both have COAT, and that rather them using it together would make the scale of the jutsu on a much more massive scale.(will get back to this)
In some ways you could say we've already seen what Sasuke may receive through the usage of Izanagi and Izanami.

To elaborate, we know that Izanagi is the application of COAT itself (top right)
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And we know that Izanami is bound from the exploitation of your opponent's Sense
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Next we also know that Sasuke can see the Limbo World Madara while Naruto can only Sense him.
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So its certainly possible Sasuke will get Limbo,and Sasuke has the Juubi's Eye now, so maybe he can use abilities like Izanagi or Izanami without the after-effects of vision.
But to focus on his Crescent Moon ability for now I would probably say that he could Undo what Naruto has done.
Meaning he could go up to Kakashi eye and cause it to vanish. Why?
Well we already know that Sasuke represents the Inton. If Naruto was able to gather the spiritual essence and breathe life into to it then Sasuke should be able to destroy the essence and take away the life from it. Instead of using Izanagi to make fantasy reality, he's making Naruto reality into fantasy by reversing the process.
Of course Sasuke would probably be able to undo this to thus making it distinct from Inton manipulation to a general output of COAT. To link it with a hypothetical Limbo, I feel as if Sasuke could be able to use his new ability and create a clone of something in the shadow Limbo World. Meaning he could make A Limbo Sasuke Clone as Madara had one. And the way this could Link with Limbo and Surpass Madara's version would be that Sasuke could create Shadow versions of things. Or Sasuke turns Kakashi's eye into 'fantasy' by changing its esscence to the Shadow world

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, then bringing it back to 'reality' or the real world just as Izanagi can do so per say with the second chance of life.

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This certainly would prove to be a devastating ability for Sasuke to use in a battle against Naruto, think of it as counter-balance for each other perhaps.

2nd question-
Yes, Hagoromo had the Juubi within him while he created the Bijuu. But in how he Juubi to do it would be probably in the way that-

The Juubi served as an extra chakra source for Hagoromo to perform the Jutsu

In regards to using the Juubi the create the Bijuu, Hagoromo essentially separated the Juubi's Chakra into 9 forms as we already know. But the difference is that Hagoromo was still the one to 'form' the Bijuu's spiritual shape and 'breathe' life into it. Using the above point 1 we could say that Hagoromo merely used part of the Juubi's chakra to fuel him into doing this. To relate this back with Sasuke, Hagoromo separated the Juubi's essence with its body making the shell

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So Sasuke may very well be able to do the same thing as well. Regarding the scale I mentioned earlier, I meant that neither Sasuke nor Naruto would be capable of performing the feat of such as creating Nine Bijuu individually. Together though, they probably could. This probably is also due to the fact they aren't the Jinchuurikis of the Bijuu but are utilizing the power given to them from Hagoromo.
I hope I managed to shed some light into these matters.

Disquiet · May 11, 2014

Aim64C said:
Naruto didn't use "creation of all things."

Naruto used the power of Ninshuu

I don't necessarily deny that it's Ninshuu, but how would that be a contradiction to Naruto using COAT?

Hagoromo completely denounced Ninjutsu, which is a tacit admission that he never even used it. If you believe that Naruto used Ninshuu to heal Kakashi's eye, then that would also be admitting that COAT could possibly be Ninshuu, it is very similar in technique after all. Furthermore, if Hagoromo did indeed only possess Ninshuu, then that would guarantee that COAT (an ability used by Hagoromo) is Ninshuu.

So:

>Naruto uses Ninshuu to restore Kakashi's eye, by using a "piece of Kakashi".

>Hagorama uses COAT to create the Bijuu from the Juubi's chakra

>Hagormo denounces Ninjutsu, claiming that he possessed Ninshuu.

Again, I don't deny that Naruto may be in possession of Ninshuu, I just don't see the reason to exclude COAT from Ninshuu.

Vega · May 11, 2014

Yαмα said:
I don't necessarily deny that it's Ninshuu, but how would that be a contradiction to Naruto using COAT?

Hagoromo completely denounced Ninshuu, which is a tacit admission that he never even used Ninjutsu. If you believe that Naruto used Ninshuu to heal Kakashi's eye, then that would also be admitting that COAT could possibly be Ninshuu, it is very similar in technique after all. Furthermore, if Hagoromo did indeed only possess Ninshuu, then that would guarantee that COAT (an ability used by Hagoromo) is Ninshuu.

So:

>Naruto uses Ninshuu to restore Kakashi's eye, by using a "piece of Kakashi".

>Hagorama uses COAT to create the Bijuu from the Juubi's chakra

>Hagormo denounces Ninjutsu, claiming that he possessed Ninshuu.

Again, I don't deny that Naruto may be in possession of Ninshuu, I just don't see the reason to exclude COAT from Ninshuu.

Very good point on the fact that Hagoromo took a piece of the Juubi and still used COAT, that's a good example in Naruto's favor imo.

Disquiet · May 11, 2014

Vega said:
How you've been Yama?
First Question:
That's a very good question, and I've had some ideas for thought. Generally, Sasuke also in a sense has a weaker version of COAT. I'd like to say they both have COAT, and that rather them using it together would make the scale of the jutsu on a much more massive scale.(will get back to this)
In some ways you could say we've already seen what Sasuke may receive through the usage of Izanagi and Izanami.

To elaborate, we know that Izanagi is the application of COAT itself (top right)
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And we know that Izanami is bound from the exploitation of your opponent's Sense
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Next we also know that Sasuke can see the Limbo World Madara while Naruto can only Sense him.
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So its certainly possible Sasuke will get Limbo,and Sasuke has the Juubi's Eye now, so maybe he can use abilities like Izanagi or Izanami without the after-effects of vision.
But to focus on his Crescent Moon ability for now I would probably say that he could Undo what Naruto has done.
Meaning he could go up to Kakashi eye and cause it to vanish. Why?
Well we already know that Sasuke represents the Inton. If Naruto was able to gather the spiritual essence and breathe life into to it then Sasuke should be able to destroy the essence and take away the life from it. Instead of using Izanagi to make fantasy reality, he's making Naruto reality into fantasy by reversing the process.
Of course Sasuke would probably be able to undo this to thus making it distinct from Inton manipulation to a general output of COAT. To link it with a hypothetical Limbo, I feel as if Sasuke could be able to use his new ability and create a clone of something in the shadow Limbo World. Meaning he could make A Limbo Sasuke Clone as Madara had one. And the way this could Link with Limbo and Surpass Madara's version would be that Sasuke could create Shadow versions of things. Or Sasuke turns Kakashi's eye into 'fantasy' by changing its esscence to the Shadow world
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, then bringing it back to 'reality' or the real world just as Izanagi can do so per say with the second chance of life.
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This certainly would prove to be a devastating ability for Sasuke to use in a battle against Naruto, think of it as counter-balance for each other perhaps.

2nd question-
Yes, Hagoromo had the Juubi within him while he created the Bijuu. But in how he Juubi to do it would be probably in the way that-

The Juubi served as an extra chakra source for Hagoromo to perform the Jutsu

In regards to using the Juubi the create the Bijuu, Hagoromo essentially separated the Juubi's Chakra into 9 forms as we already know. But the difference is that Hagoromo was still the one to 'form' the Bijuu's spiritual shape and 'breathe' life into it. Using the above point 1 we could say that Hagoromo merely used part of the Juubi's chakra to fuel him into doing this. To relate this back with Sasuke, Hagoromo separated the Juubi's essence with its body making the shell
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So Sasuke may very well be able to do the same thing as well. Regarding the scale I mentioned earlier, I meant that neither Sasuke nor Naruto would be capable of performing the feat of such as creating Nine Bijuu individually. Together though, they probably could. This probably is also due to the fact they aren't the Jinchuurikis of the Bijuu but are utilizing the power given to them from Hagoromo.
I hope I managed to shed some light into these matters.

Awesome. I'll feel even more awesome once my 25th birthday passes tomorrow, never liked the attention (though it's much more tolerable online). How about you?

Hmm that's a good point that I overlooked. Izanagi is just a different application of COAT (and it helps that the manga outright states this). Sasuke undoing what Naruto has created, interesting. So, you're saying that Sasuke can only destroy the life Naruto has created, and not life in general? I guess that would insinuate there's some signature in Naruto's creation, which I guess would be very potent Yoton energy or Ashura's chakra? It's a bit abstract, but I suppose there are more abstract concepts such as Senjutsu being able to hit an entity in another realm whereas Ninjutsu can't. Of course, Sasuke having the ability to destroy any kind of life regardless if Naruto had a hand in creating it is another option, but that would make him extremely OP without some kind of limit. Though, I guess Naruto can be perceived as OP as well, if he can just as easily heal himself to that same extent (replacing an eye like it's nothing, and saving someone that was on the verge of death). I do feel that you're right in some sense, Naruto being the "creator" and Sasuke the "destroyer" seems like something Kishi would do.

Hmm while Sasuke gaining the same ability as Madara doesn't exactly appeal to me, I suppose it's plausible because 1) Madara is able to manifest his presence within that realm proving it's possible somehow 2) Interaction between the real world and that realm has been shown possible via senjutsu 3) Sasuke can see the shadow Madara

If we want to add a little symbology, there's the whole shadow/moon relation. And it also seems very reasonable that Sasuke can now use Izanagi and Izanami (he even obtained some of Hashirama's DNA and chakra), which again, is proved by the manga to be the practical application of COAT.

All in all, both of them possessing COAT to a lesser extent certainly has merit in my opinion.

I see. So it's only weaker in the aspect that they can't create anything on massive scales, at least individually. Sounds reasonable, I'd imagine they're individually weaker in comparison to Hagoromo. My point was that Naruto's new ability is closer to COAT than what was being presented in the thread, but you differentiated on the basis that Naruto cannot create something on the scale of 9 Bijuu. I guess I was correct in my original assumption.

Vega · May 11, 2014

Yαмα said:
Awesome. I'll feel even more awesome once my 25th birthday passes tomorrow, never liked the attention (though it's much more tolerable online). How about you?

Hmm that's a good point that I overlooked. Izanagi is just a different application of COAT (and it helps that the manga outright states this). Sasuke undoing what Naruto has created, interesting. So, you're saying that Sasuke can only destroy the life Naruto has created, and not life in general? I guess that would insinuate there's some signature in Naruto's creation, which I guess would be very potent Yoton energy or Ashura's chakra? It's a bit abstract, but I suppose there are more abstract concepts such as Senjutsu being able to hit an entity in another realm whereas Ninjutsu can't. Of course, Sasuke having the ability to destroy any kind of life regardless if Naruto had a hand in creating it is another option, but that would make him extremely OP without some kind of limit. Though, I guess Naruto can be perceived as OP as well, if he can just as easily heal himself to that same extent (replacing an eye like it's nothing, and saving someone that was on the verge of death). I do feel that you're right in some sense, Naruto being the "creator" and Sasuke the "destroyer" seems like something Kishi would do.

Hmm while Sasuke gaining the same ability as Madara doesn't exactly appeal to me, I suppose it's plausible because 1) Madara is able to manifest his presence within that realm proving it's possible somehow 2) Interaction between the real world and that realm has been shown possible via senjutsu 3) Sasuke can see the shadow Madara

If we want to add a little symbology, there's the whole shadow/moon relation. And it also seems very reasonable that Sasuke can now use Izanagi and Izanami (he even obtained some of Hashirama's DNA and chakra), which again, is proved by the manga to be the practical application of COAT.

All in all, both of them possessing COAT to a lesser extent certainly has merit in my opinion.

I see. So it's only weaker in the aspect that they can't create anything on massive scales, at least individually. Sounds reasonable, I'd imagine they're individually weaker in comparison to Hagoromo. My point was that Naruto's new ability is closer to COAT than what was being presented in the thread, but you differentiated on the basis that Naruto cannot create something on the scale of 9 Bijuu. I guess I was correct in my original assumption.

Ah that's good to hear, and happy birthday man! I'm alright for the time being.

In regards to if Saskue could only use his ability in response to Naruto's, personally I was thinking more along the lines of using it on anything in general and like you said they'd both be OP so it would counter-balance. Yeah I'm glad that Izanagi was stated to be the application of COAT, as this really means Sasuke's ability will be like COAT. That and Kishi has foreshadowed this kind of stuff a lot, just like "eyes that see darkness well" and now Sasuke can see Shadow Madara in the Limbo world. I guess Kishi said it best that he has to think of Sasuke whenever he does something for Naruto.

Yes indeed my mindset was on the scale of what they could create. The jutsu probably is very well in the same vicinity of Hagoromo's techniques based from the mechanics of the jutsu; but yeah, as a duo Naruto and Sasuke could probably create amazing results.

Aim64C · May 11, 2014

Yαмα said:
I don't necessarily deny that it's Ninshuu, but how would that be a contradiction to Naruto using COAT?

Hagoromo completely denounced Ninjutsu, which is a tacit admission that he never even used it.

I wouldn't be so certain. He never stated that he did not participate in war. He said that Ninjutsu was created for war. He and his brother fought against the Juubi using abilities and techniques that were not fully described. Further, his sons both developed techniques that were not fully described, either.

Ninjutsu is cultivating the energies of the spirit and body. This goes along with the Taoist "Three Treasures:"

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"The Three Treasures -- Jing, Qi and Shen – are substances/energies that we cultivate in qigong and Inner Alchemy practice. Though there is no exact English translation for Jing, Qi and Shen, they are often translated as Essence, Vitality and Spirit. The qigong practitioner learns to transform Jing into Qi into Shen – the so-called “path of transmutation” – and also to transform Shen into Qi into Jing – the “path of generation” or “path of manifestation.” The Three Treasures can be thought of also as three different frequencies, or as existing along a continuum of frequency. Practitioners of Inner Alchemy learn to modulate their consciousness along this vibratory spectrum – choosing their frequency in much the same way we might choose a specific radio station to tune into."

Kishimoto could argue that the either Qi or Shen are 'chakra' in the Ninja world - he could also argue that either Jing or Qi are the 'lower' energies of the body. However, it makes more sense for the Chakra, as received from the Sage, represents a heightened awareness of Shen, intended to interact with the Qi of other people to form the basis of Ninshu. Ninjutsu, instead, uses Shen to cultivate Jing.

Alternatively, it could be interpreted as Shen cultivates both Qi and Jing (Shen representing the component of deliberate action upon Qi and Jing).

This would explain why Madara is, currently, not using much in the way of ninjutsu. He has, possibly, divided his Shen, Jing, and Qi into individual parts - Black Zetsu, Ivisi-Madara, and the physical Madara. .... Of course, he's also got Hashirama embedded into him - so a lot of this is intended to be somewhat symbolic and arbitrary on Kishimoto's part.

Creation of All Things goes on a different scale. Just as Sage Mode is described as taking in Nature chakra (or 'the essence of nature'), Creation of All Things goes beyond a simple yin-yang release. Yin-Yang release is a product of the Mind and Body in ninjutsu, but the human mind is a 'false yin' within Taoism.

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Of particular importance:

"There is not only one kind of yin and yang. There is primordial yin and yang, and there is condition yin and yang. There is yin and yang within life and there's yin and yang within essence. There is real yin and yang and there is artificial yin and yang. There is external yin and yang and there is internal yin and yang. It's necessary to study all these kinds of yin and yang and understand them clearly before starting the alchemical work. -- Liu Yiming (Commentary on Understanding Reality by Zhang Boduan)
The mind of Tao is associated with celestial yang, in contrast to the human mind, or human mentality, which is associated with mundane yin. -- Liu Yiming (The Taoist I Ching) "

Creation of All Things is an interaction with Celestial Yang, and possibly even Celestial Yin. The injection of the human mind is typically considered destructive to attaining higher understanding within Taoism.

While that is my extrapolation of it - the use of Creation of All Things was not a restoration of a physical manifestation or a 'recharging' of a collapsing system - it was the fundamental altering of a being known as the Juubi.

The Eight Trigrams seal used to seal the fox, even when splitting its chakra, did not alter its identity.

Similarly, none of the most powerful genjutsus endowed to the Uchiha have the ability to alter the identity and form of another being.

If you believe that Naruto used Ninshuu to heal Kakashi's eye, then that would also be admitting that COAT could possibly be Ninshuu, it is very similar in technique after all. Furthermore, if Hagoromo did indeed only possess Ninshuu, then that would guarantee that COAT (an ability used by Hagoromo) is Ninshuu.

There are reasons to be suspicious of everything Hagoromo has said.

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"The DDJ tells us that sages empty themselves, becoming void of pretense. Sages concentrate their internal energies (qi). They clean their vision (ch. 10). They manifest plainness and become like uncarved wood (pu) (ch. 19). They live naturally and free from desires given by men (ch. 37) They settle themselves and know how to be content (ch. 46). The DDJ makes use of some very famous analogies to drive home its point. Sages know the value of emptiness as illustrated by how emptiness is used in a bowl, door, window, valley or canyon (ch. 11). They preserve the female (yin), meaning that they know how to be receptive and are not unbalanced favoring assertion and action (yang) (ch. 28). They shoulder yin and embrace yang, blend internal energies (qi) and thereby attain harmony (he) (ch. 42). Those following the dao do not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). They do not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use their heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). Indeed, the DDJ cautions that those who would try to do something with the world will fail, they will actually ruin it (ch. 29). Sages do not engage in disputes and arguing, or try to prove their point (chs. 22, 81). They are pliable and supple, not rigid and resistive (chs. 76, 78). They are like water (ch. 8), finding their own place, overcoming the hard and strong by suppleness (ch. 36). Sages act with no expectation of reward (chs. 2, 51). They put themselves last and yet come first (ch. 7). They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace (ch. 27). Because they embody dao in practice, they have longevity (ch. 16). They create peace (ch. 32). Creatures do not harm them (chs. 50, 55). Soldiers do not kill them (ch. 50). Heaven (tian) protects the sage and the sage becomes invincible (ch. 67)."

Hagoromo has done almost everything contrary to how a Sage should be. I would go so far as to caution that he is deliberately misleading Naruto (and by extension, Sasuke).

He is not lying, per se. He is simply giving the bits of truth that lead Naruto to the conclusions beneficial to Hagoromo's intentions.

This goes along well with all of the connotations of the Buddhist Outer Path and the Sage. But that is another discussion.

So:

>Naruto uses Ninshuu to restore Kakashi's eye, by using a "piece of Kakashi".

>Hagorama uses COAT to create the Bijuu from the Juubi's chakra

>Hagormo denounces Ninjutsu, claiming that he possessed Ninshuu.

Again, I don't deny that Naruto may be in possession of Ninshuu, I just don't see the reason to exclude COAT from Ninshuu.

You do make a fair point.

It really depends upon how Kishimoto has interpreted works such as A Journey To the West and the Taoist/Buddhist teachings he's largely used to 'build' the mechanics of chakra and the morals/subjects of the series thusfar.

Disquiet · May 12, 2014

Vega said:
Ah that's good to hear, and happy birthday man! I'm alright for the time being.

In regards to if Saskue could only use his ability in response to Naruto's, personally I was thinking more along the lines of using it on anything in general and like you said they'd both be OP so it would counter-balance. Yeah I'm glad that Izanagi was stated to be the application of COAT, as this really means Sasuke's ability will be like COAT. That and Kishi has foreshadowed this kind of stuff a lot, just like "eyes that see darkness well" and now Sasuke can see Shadow Madara in the Limbo world. I guess Kishi said it best that he has to think of Sasuke whenever he does something for Naruto.

Yes indeed my mindset was on the scale of what they could create. The jutsu probably is very well in the same vicinity of Hagoromo's techniques based from the mechanics of the jutsu; but yeah, as a duo Naruto and Sasuke could probably create amazing results.

Thanks, and lol let's hope it last long enough for you to savor it.

Understood on both accounts. Thanks for the clarification.

Aim64C said:
I wouldn't be so certain. He never stated that he did not participate in war. He said that Ninjutsu was created for war. He and his brother fought against the Juubi using abilities and techniques that were not fully described. Further, his sons both developed techniques that were not fully described, either.

True. Though, if we follow this train of thought, the tracks lead to yet another reason why Naruto's possession of COAT doesn't contradict his possession of Ninshuu. He's currently using Senjustu attacks, which is adding natural energy to enhance ninjutsu attacks. Kabuto, and even Sasuke in CM (and all other Orochimaru's experiments) has done this without the presence of Ninshuu. My point is that Naruto isn't using Ninshuu alone, so acquiring the technique COAT (just like how he now has the truth-seeking balls after Hagormo did whatever he did) shouldn't be a contradiction in his ability to use Ninshuu. Now one could maybe argue that all the techniques he's doing right now is Ninshuu based, but if we follow the idea Ninjustu is used for war/battle, then it wouldn't be Ninshuu.

To illuminate: Naruto is currently using combative jutsu in addition to Ninshuu (supposedly), COAT can be something he acquired as well in his meeting with Hagoromo.

Ninjutsu is cultivating the energies of the spirit and body. This goes along with the Taoist "Three Treasures:"
You must be registered for see links

"The Three Treasures -- Jing, Qi and Shen – are substances/energies that we cultivate in qigong and Inner Alchemy practice. Though there is no exact English translation for Jing, Qi and Shen, they are often translated as Essence, Vitality and Spirit. The qigong practitioner learns to transform Jing into Qi into Shen – the so-called “path of transmutation” – and also to transform Shen into Qi into Jing – the “path of generation” or “path of manifestation.” The Three Treasures can be thought of also as three different frequencies, or as existing along a continuum of frequency. Practitioners of Inner Alchemy learn to modulate their consciousness along this vibratory spectrum – choosing their frequency in much the same way we might choose a specific radio station to tune into."

Kishimoto could argue that the either Qi or Shen are 'chakra' in the Ninja world - he could also argue that either Jing or Qi are the 'lower' energies of the body. However, it makes more sense for the Chakra, as received from the Sage, represents a heightened awareness of Shen, intended to interact with the Qi of other people to form the basis of Ninshu. Ninjutsu, instead, uses Shen to cultivate Jing.

Alternatively, it could be interpreted as Shen cultivates both Qi and Jing (Shen representing the component of deliberate action upon Qi and Jing).

This would explain why Madara is, currently, not using much in the way of ninjutsu. He has, possibly, divided his Shen, Jing, and Qi into individual parts - Black Zetsu, Ivisi-Madara, and the physical Madara. .... Of course, he's also got Hashirama embedded into him - so a lot of this is intended to be somewhat symbolic and arbitrary on Kishimoto's part.

Creation of All Things goes on a different scale. Just as Sage Mode is described as taking in Nature chakra (or 'the essence of nature'), Creation of All Things goes beyond a simple yin-yang release. Yin-Yang release is a product of the Mind and Body in ninjutsu, but the human mind is a 'false yin' within Taoism.

You must be registered for see links

Of particular importance:

"There is not only one kind of yin and yang. There is primordial yin and yang, and there is condition yin and yang. There is yin and yang within life and there's yin and yang within essence. There is real yin and yang and there is artificial yin and yang. There is external yin and yang and there is internal yin and yang. It's necessary to study all these kinds of yin and yang and understand them clearly before starting the alchemical work. -- Liu Yiming (Commentary on Understanding Reality by Zhang Boduan)
The mind of Tao is associated with celestial yang, in contrast to the human mind, or human mentality, which is associated with mundane yin. -- Liu Yiming (The Taoist I Ching) "

Creation of All Things is an interaction with Celestial Yang, and possibly even Celestial Yin. The injection of the human mind is typically considered destructive to attaining higher understanding within Taoism.

Interesting stuff, it makes a lot of sense. Though, I do spot a contradiction.

You said this:

Creation of All Things is an interaction with Celestial Yang, and possibly even Celestial Yin. The injection of the human mind is typically considered destructive to attaining higher understanding within Taoism.

We're aware that Hagoromo possessed both COAT and Ninshuu (temporarily setting aside the idea that COAT isn't Ninshuu). So, According to your interpretation, since Hagormo possessed COAT, that would mean he has rid himself of the mundane Yin. Yet earlier, you insinuate he used Ninjutsu (not to mention being in possession of Ninshuu), by saying you wouldn't be so certain he didn't use Ninjutsu during the war/he fought against the Juubi.

Or are you saying he's able to combine celestial Yang and Yin to perform a higher level of "Ninjutsu"? If so, since the appearance of various would-be jutsus is left to our imagination, we would have no way of judging if Naruto isn't using it now. Would it increase in size? Or would it simply be more "pure"? Maybe both? We wouldn't know how accurate we are since it's left to Kishi's imagination.

Not only that, but we still run into the same problem. Hagoromo possessed Ninshuu and COAT, which would mean the attributes of COAT and the attributes of Ninshuu would have to be capable of interacting between one another i.e. in the absence of the Mundane Yin. And if they're capable of interacting between one another, we don't know if COAT is a product of Ninshuu. However, even if we choose to say no that (though I can't think of a legit reason if the absence of Mundane Yin is guaranteed if one possess COAT, but is still capable of using Ninshuu), dismissing it from Naruto's arsenal because of Ninshuu wouldn't be legit grounds for dismissal.

While that is my extrapolation of it - the use of Creation of All Things was not a restoration of a physical manifestation or a 'recharging' of a collapsing system - it was the fundamental altering of a being known as the Juubi.

The Eight Trigrams seal used to seal the fox, even when splitting its chakra, did not alter its identity.

Similarly, none of the most powerful genjutsus endowed to the Uchiha have the ability to alter the identity and form of another being.

So part of your reason for believing that COAT utilizes celestial Yang and Yin is due to the level it operates. What then, do you make of Kabuto giving life to inanimate objects? If you believe COAT goes beyond the simple Yin-Yang, I'd imagine you'd also believe Kabuto's Yang is far from normal. We saw manipulation of inanimate objects, but to give that inanimate object life? It was unprecedented until then.

And yet, the senjutu attacks used by Kabuto looks no different than ninutsu. Not to mention that senjutsu is natural energy combined with simple Yin and Yang. Again, if Naruto has acquired celestial Yang, we simply may not know basing it off the appearance of his techniques. Although Hashirama can create life (trees and forests), he can't give life to inanimate objects, at least to our knowledge.

There are reasons to be suspicious of everything Hagoromo has said.

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"The DDJ tells us that sages empty themselves, becoming void of pretense. Sages concentrate their internal energies (qi). They clean their vision (ch. 10). They manifest plainness and become like uncarved wood (pu) (ch. 19). They live naturally and free from desires given by men (ch. 37) They settle themselves and know how to be content (ch. 46). The DDJ makes use of some very famous analogies to drive home its point. Sages know the value of emptiness as illustrated by how emptiness is used in a bowl, door, window, valley or canyon (ch. 11). They preserve the female (yin), meaning that they know how to be receptive and are not unbalanced favoring assertion and action (yang) (ch. 28). They shoulder yin and embrace yang, blend internal energies (qi) and thereby attain harmony (he) (ch. 42). Those following the dao do not strive, tamper, or seek control (ch. 64). They do not endeavor to help life along (ch. 55), or use their heart-mind (xin) to “solve” or “figure out” life’s apparent knots and entanglements (ch. 55). Indeed, the DDJ cautions that those who would try to do something with the world will fail, they will actually ruin it (ch. 29). Sages do not engage in disputes and arguing, or try to prove their point (chs. 22, 81). They are pliable and supple, not rigid and resistive (chs. 76, 78). They are like water (ch. 8), finding their own place, overcoming the hard and strong by suppleness (ch. 36). Sages act with no expectation of reward (chs. 2, 51). They put themselves last and yet come first (ch. 7). They never make a display of themselves, (chs. 72, 22). They do not brag or boast, (chs. 22, 24) and they do not linger after their work is done (ch. 77). They leave no trace (ch. 27). Because they embody dao in practice, they have longevity (ch. 16). They create peace (ch. 32). Creatures do not harm them (chs. 50, 55). Soldiers do not kill them (ch. 50). Heaven (tian) protects the sage and the sage becomes invincible (ch. 67)."

Hagoromo has done almost everything contrary to how a Sage should be. I would go so far as to caution that he is deliberately misleading Naruto (and by extension, Sasuke).

He is not lying, per se. He is simply giving the bits of truth that lead Naruto to the conclusions beneficial to Hagoromo's intentions.

This goes along well with all of the connotations of the Buddhist Outer Path and the Sage. But that is another discussion.

I'm still on the fence about this idea, but two legs and one arm is saying Hagormo is deceiving. Even before reading this, I was suspicious because of his apparent naivete for writing on a tablet the secrets to power, but only allowing for one son to do so. The idea that maybe it would have led to peace isn't something I expect from a supposed wise man.

You do make a fair point.

It really depends upon how Kishimoto has interpreted works such as A Journey To the West and the Taoist/Buddhist teachings he's largely used to 'build' the mechanics of chakra and the morals/subjects of the series thusfar.

Indeed, while I do find all the religion/mythology similarities interesting, a lot of it depends on Kishi being 100% accurate. Even if not by mistake, he could always alter it at any point in the story and add his own "twist".

Aim64C · May 13, 2014

Yαмα said:
True. Though, if we follow this train of thought, the tracks lead to yet another reason why Naruto's possession of COAT doesn't contradict his possession of Ninshuu. He's currently using Senjustu attacks, which is adding natural energy to enhance ninjutsu attacks. Kabuto, and even Sasuke in CM (and all other Orochimaru's experiments) has done this without the presence of Ninshuu. My point is that Naruto isn't using Ninshuu alone, so acquiring the technique COAT (just like how he now has the truth-seeking balls after Hagormo did whatever he did) shouldn't be a contradiction in his ability to use Ninshuu. Now one could maybe argue that all the techniques he's doing right now is Ninshuu based, but if we follow the idea Ninjustu is used for war/battle, then it wouldn't be Ninshuu.

To illuminate: Naruto is currently using combative jutsu in addition to Ninshuu (supposedly), COAT can be something he acquired as well in his meeting with Hagoromo.

This is true, it could be yet another arbitrarily granted technique.

My argument is that Creation of All Things is neither Ninshuu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, etc. It is a completely different ability and likely requires direct interaction with 'the firmament' - the Tao, which is a very fixed construct.

But that gets into Taoist concepts of divination and destiny (and the paradoxical benefits and futility of each). The Tao is, in a sense, destiny. It is fixed, unchangeable. Although exactly -what- is fixed, and what is unchangeable is often an interesting subject of discussion within Taoist literature.

For example - Neji was fully correct about Destiny. It was his destiny to die protecting Hinata. He was right in that Naruto and Hinata shared the same destiny. He was simply incorrect in his assumptions about what those destinies were - but the relationship was fixed and unchangeable.

Which touches on a deeper subject - "So Naruto has worked so hard for nothing? He's destined?" - Which is a concept that has been one of the most deeply debated concepts of Taoism through the ages. The overall 'settlement' seems to be that one who is destined to accomplish certain things will also be destined to have the attitudes and ambitions necessary to overcome the challenges - they are operating within their nature and within the flow of life, but not necessarily 'effortless' from the physical perspective.

Kishimoto seems to have settled along the teachings of The ChuangTzu with regards to Taoist concepts of Destiny:

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"The ChuangTzu sees fate and duty as two sides of the same coin. Both must be performed – there is really no choice. Instead, one may become content despite the coercion by serving one’s own mind or by seeing an unpleasant situation in the most pleasant light possible. In other words, wandering free and easy mentally.

Although Kishimoto's use of Destiny doesn't exactly contradict any of the popular texts/authors for Taoist Destiny and it isn't impossible for him to incorporate the others as time goes on - he does seem to have sided strongly with this in both instances where Destiny has come with mortal consequences within the Hyuuga.

We're aware that Hagoromo possessed both COAT and Ninshuu (temporarily setting aside the idea that COAT isn't Ninshuu). So, According to your interpretation, since Hagormo possessed COAT, that would mean he has rid himself of the mundane Yin. Yet earlier, you insinuate he used Ninjutsu (not to mention being in possession of Ninshuu), by saying you wouldn't be so certain he didn't use Ninjutsu during the war/he fought against the Juubi.

In that segment, I was merely contesting the idea that Hagoromo did not utilize ninjutsu and therefor Creation of All Things would logically be an ability more closely related to Ninshuu.

I apologize - I don't always make it clear when I'm meaning to reinforce my own ideas and when I'm simply critiquing the idea in front of me. I can be hard to follow in that, and many other regards.

Or are you saying he's able to combine celestial Yang and Yin to perform a higher level of "Ninjutsu"? If so, since the appearance of various would-be jutsus is left to our imagination, we would have no way of judging if Naruto isn't using it now. Would it increase in size? Or would it simply be more "pure"? Maybe both? We wouldn't know how accurate we are since it's left to Kishi's imagination.

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"However, an important feature of this discipline is that it is only concerned with True Yin, which is the Yin enclosed within Yang, and with True Yang, which is the Yang enclosed within Yin. These are the concealed core, the hidden internal truth; they are the materials or the "ingredients" of alchemy."

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"This chart depicts, on top, the Absolute (wuji) as an empty circle. Below it is another circle that represents the Great Ultimate (taiji) as harboring the Two, or Yin and Yang, shown as two semicircles that mirror one another. Each semicircle is made of black (Yin) and white (Yang) lines that enclose each other, to depict Yin containing Yang and Yang containing Yin. The empty circle within these lines corresponds to the empty circle on top. This alludes to the principle that Yin and Yang are the "function" or "operation" (yong) of Emptiness, which in turn is their "substance" or "core" (ti). Following this are the five agents, that constitute a further stage in the progressive differentiation of Oneness into multiplicity. The lines that connect them to each other show the sequence in which they are generated, namely Wood, Fire, Soil, Metal, and Water. In this cosmological configuration, the Great Ultimate is represented by the central Soil (which is said to have a "male" and a "female" aspect), and reappears as the small empty circle below, which represents the conjunction of Water and Fire ("great Yin" and "great Yang") and of Wood and Metal ("minor Yang" and "minor Yin"). The circle below the five agents stands for the joining of the active and passive principles, which respectively give birth to and support the existence of the "ten thousand things." These are represented, in turn, by the circle at the base of the chart."

I can't be exactly certain where Kishimoto would take this idea. I would combine all of this to extrapolate that True Yang is utilized with True Yin to create and/or radically change "The Ten Thousand Things." Given that the world we live in is seen as somewhat illusionary and a product of the 'mundane self' by Taoist standards, it would then be implied that "Creation of All Things" implies a greater ability to create other mundane entities from the Tao - more so than creating physical illusions within the world.

Which does bring up an interesting point to the "World of Lies" so frequently cited by Kisame, and makes me wonder about something else I've been running across in my research of Taoism - and that is the notion of "A thousand I's".

Basically, the idea is that each person is made up of a thousand smaller identities that all interact in support and competition of each other. Part of the goal of the 'firing process' to create the 'elixir' is to unify all of these entities and/or consolidate them down to one identity. Which would be a rather interesting ending to Naruto - to find it has been a battle within a monk's mind (possibly a monk named Naruto). Though an ending like that would probably piss a bunch of people off. Though it would be a sort of "Inception-like" ending. What's to say the 'true' Naruto is not just another bunch of 'I's' within a greater mind?

Anyway - my point is that the structure of Taoism would suggest that Ninshuu and Ninjutsu are all products of the mundane and would really only have the ability to alter within the confines of the "Ten Thousand Things" - all-out creation would be above and beyond the abilities of mundane yin/yang.

Not only that, but we still run into the same problem. Hagoromo possessed Ninshuu and COAT, which would mean the attributes of COAT and the attributes of Ninshuu would have to be capable of interacting between one another i.e. in the absence of the Mundane Yin. And if they're capable of interacting between one another, we don't know if COAT is a product of Ninshuu. However, even if we choose to say no that (though I can't think of a legit reason if the absence of Mundane Yin is guaranteed if one possess COAT, but is still capable of using Ninshuu), dismissing it from Naruto's arsenal because of Ninshuu wouldn't be legit grounds for dismissal.

This really depends upon how Kishimoto wants to run with the idea of True/Mundane Yin/Yang - if he runs with it at all. Perhaps Creation of All Things was used only temporarily after a great amount of preparation. The work and effort put forth into obtaining the "Elixir of Immortality" - the process for obtaining True Yang - is monumental. Perhaps the Sage was only able to obtain and use the power for a brief period of time before losing it.

Perhaps he seeks to extract the Elixir of Life from the likes of Naruto and others (a sort of internal/external alchemy hybrid approach) because his fixation upon the physical world has prevented him from obtaining the power necessary to complete what he started. Or perhaps he wishes for his mother to have the power.

Perhaps the Juubi's fruit is "The Golden Flower" - the Elixir of Immortality, and all of my speculation on the Sage's motives is silly (though it could also be that the power of the Juubi's fruit - the Eliixir of Immortality - could be created in ways other than the Juubi, itself - and perhaps that is part of what Hagoromo is doing... there's a lot of room for him to have fun with the ideas).

Or, perhaps once you've 'seen' what needs to be seen, you forever have Creation of All Things.

Maybe it just depends upon whether or not you're an Uchiha and/or have Senju DNA. Sometimes the flat-ness of Kishimoto's story development is ... disappointing.

So part of your reason for believing that COAT utilizes celestial Yang and Yin is due to the level it operates. What then, do you make of Kabuto giving life to inanimate objects? If you believe COAT goes beyond the simple Yin-Yang, I'd imagine you'd also believe Kabuto's Yang is far from normal. We saw manipulation of inanimate objects, but to give that inanimate object life? It was unprecedented until then.

This one hasn't been entirely explained, but sealing jutsu certainly plays a part in this. Fuinjutsu is different in that it seems to draw power from elsewhere. I have speculated that sealing jutsu was originally an extension of early Uzumaki practices (Pre-Sage) involving shamanistic rituals and symbols that directed the flow of nature chakra to perform work (perhaps using a catalyst reaction from the chakra of a being with chakra).

The idea, here, would be that you use a human sacrifice (Qi and Jing) and use a portion of one's original Jing to call to their Shen, binding it within a seal that then uses the Qi and Jing of the sacrifice (further empowered by interaction with Nature chakra - though I do not recall if Naruto is stated as being able to sense Edo summons exceptionally well through Sage mode, or not, which one would expect if Kishimoto intended to 'power' them through Nature chakra).

Although the reference to "Edo" implies the Buddhist concepts of the "Impure World" - Which could simply be an allusion to the idea that you are summoning a soul from the "Pure World" (or where those who have escaped the cycle of suffering... although this use by Kishimoto is taken with a bit of artistic liberty, as the "Pure World" is meant as a residence for truly enlightened souls - the "Impure World" is still bound to its own cycle of reincarnation and suffering).

Merging the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism would hold that the "Impure" or "Edo" world is the "Lower" or "Mundane" world. The "Pure" world of Buddhism doesn't merge as well with Taoism - but could be seen as the -state- of being 'one with the Tao.' That, or it could simply mean that one has achieved a relatively higher state of unity with the universe (if we take the "Inception interpretation" of the many 'I's' and an infinite regression of Yin and Yang).

Though the impact to Naruto may simply be in the name and little more.

And yet, the senjutu attacks used by Kabuto looks no different than ninutsu. Not to mention that senjutsu is natural energy combined with simple Yin and Yang. Again, if Naruto has acquired celestial Yang, we simply may not know basing it off the appearance of his techniques. Although Hashirama can create life (trees and forests), he can't give life to inanimate objects, at least to our knowledge.

Trees and forests are not really seen as a separate life within the concepts of the Five Movements/Virtues and the I Ching:

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Wood is actually a phase of the Five Virtues - which represent the flow and cycle of life. In other interpretations it is seen as a combination of Earth, Water, and Fire, and in Naruto it is directly stated as being a specific variation of Earth and Water releases only possible by those of the Senju descent. This would imply a transitioning or empowering as opposed to a creation. I suppose that is splitting hairs fit for a court room, but when you consider that people spit impossible sums of water out of their mouth - there is likely some distinction between "Creation of All Things" and "Stop flooding the damned place, already - where in the hell is that water coming from?"

In the end, that is all somewhat vague. It is also possible that the Senju's ability to sprout and/or manipulate wood is more directly related to the capabilities of the Juubi (much as how the Elder Son seemed to inherit the eyes of the Sage, resembling the eye of the Juubi; perhaps the younger son inherited the body in a literal sense of being able to utilize the body of the Juubi - which is wood/trees).

Of course, that brings up the question of: "So where in the heck do the Uzumaki fit into all of this?" Which I've discussed that already, but it's a factor that is relevant to the overall structure of Naruto.

I'm still on the fence about this idea, but two legs and one arm is saying Hagormo is deceiving. Even before reading this, I was suspicious because of his apparent naivete for writing on a tablet the secrets to power, but only allowing for one son to do so. The idea that maybe it would have led to peace isn't something I expect from a supposed wise man.

I agree.

It is odd, to me, that he introduces the idea of Indra and Ashura. While I am not exactly opposed to the notion of reincarnation - I find the Sage's insinuation that his sons are perpetually reincarnated as being somewhat... troubling. If his drifting through time to observe and attempt to guide his sons to peace was such a noble effort, one would expect results considerably better than the track record the Sage has established for himself.

I think the inclusion of Indra and Ashura is more of a distraction on the part of the Sage, though I am not exactly sure how. Something seems off about his whole story, but I can't quite place my finger on it. The insinuation is that Sasuke is Indra and Naruto is Ashura... but I'm wondering if that is really true, or if the Sage is trying to keep Naruto from realizing something even more important in the mix of things.

Indeed, while I do find all the religion/mythology similarities interesting, a lot of it depends on Kishi being 100% accurate. Even if not by mistake, he could always alter it at any point in the story and add his own "twist".

I think one gets a bit more appreciation for a series like Naruto when you look at the work(s) most probable to have been the inspiration for particular plots and events. It gives you a sense of what the author actually did. Perhaps that is a sort of underhanded jab by me, since I am insinuating that the story is difficult to appreciate on its own virtues - but I do find that I think Kishimoto has done a bit less justice to Naruto than he has to the inspirational materials for his writing.

Minator93 · May 13, 2014

Great thread

davidou · May 13, 2014

Vega said:
As I've already stated, Madara has used a lesser scaled of COAT. Madara's power-up was already stated to be the second Rinnegan along with whatever Kishi has planned for him.

As I've already stated,

How smart do you feel when you begin a sentence by "as I've already stated"?

You didn't understand the problem so your answer is irrelevant.You don't understand implied things.
Simple words for you (I'm going to rewrite what I've already said):
If Naruto has COAT , Madara can't win against team 7 even with COAT , there is no suspens...

You act as someone > , I hate to discuss with you for that.

Disquiet · May 13, 2014

Aim64C said:
This is true, it could be yet another arbitrarily granted technique.

My argument is that Creation of All Things is neither Ninshuu, Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, etc. It is a completely different ability and likely requires direct interaction with 'the firmament' - the Tao, which is a very fixed construct.

But that gets into Taoist concepts of divination and destiny (and the paradoxical benefits and futility of each). The Tao is, in a sense, destiny. It is fixed, unchangeable. Although exactly -what- is fixed, and what is unchangeable is often an interesting subject of discussion within Taoist literature.

For example - Neji was fully correct about Destiny. It was his destiny to die protecting Hinata. He was right in that Naruto and Hinata shared the same destiny. He was simply incorrect in his assumptions about what those destinies were - but the relationship was fixed and unchangeable.

Which touches on a deeper subject - "So Naruto has worked so hard for nothing? He's destined?" - Which is a concept that has been one of the most deeply debated concepts of Taoism through the ages. The overall 'settlement' seems to be that one who is destined to accomplish certain things will also be destined to have the attitudes and ambitions necessary to overcome the challenges - they are operating within their nature and within the flow of life, but not necessarily 'effortless' from the physical perspective.

Kishimoto seems to have settled along the teachings of The ChuangTzu with regards to Taoist concepts of Destiny:

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"The ChuangTzu sees fate and duty as two sides of the same coin. Both must be performed – there is really no choice. Instead, one may become content despite the coercion by serving one’s own mind or by seeing an unpleasant situation in the most pleasant light possible. In other words, wandering free and easy mentally.

Although Kishimoto's use of Destiny doesn't exactly contradict any of the popular texts/authors for Taoist Destiny and it isn't impossible for him to incorporate the others as time goes on - he does seem to have sided strongly with this in both instances where Destiny has come with mortal consequences within the Hyuuga.

In that segment, I was merely contesting the idea that Hagoromo did not utilize ninjutsu and therefor Creation of All Things would logically be an ability more closely related to Ninshuu.

I apologize - I don't always make it clear when I'm meaning to reinforce my own ideas and when I'm simply critiquing the idea in front of me. I can be hard to follow in that, and many other regards.

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"However, an important feature of this discipline is that it is only concerned with True Yin, which is the Yin enclosed within Yang, and with True Yang, which is the Yang enclosed within Yin. These are the concealed core, the hidden internal truth; they are the materials or the "ingredients" of alchemy."

You must be registered for see images

"This chart depicts, on top, the Absolute (wuji) as an empty circle. Below it is another circle that represents the Great Ultimate (taiji) as harboring the Two, or Yin and Yang, shown as two semicircles that mirror one another. Each semicircle is made of black (Yin) and white (Yang) lines that enclose each other, to depict Yin containing Yang and Yang containing Yin. The empty circle within these lines corresponds to the empty circle on top. This alludes to the principle that Yin and Yang are the "function" or "operation" (yong) of Emptiness, which in turn is their "substance" or "core" (ti). Following this are the five agents, that constitute a further stage in the progressive differentiation of Oneness into multiplicity. The lines that connect them to each other show the sequence in which they are generated, namely Wood, Fire, Soil, Metal, and Water. In this cosmological configuration, the Great Ultimate is represented by the central Soil (which is said to have a "male" and a "female" aspect), and reappears as the small empty circle below, which represents the conjunction of Water and Fire ("great Yin" and "great Yang") and of Wood and Metal ("minor Yang" and "minor Yin"). The circle below the five agents stands for the joining of the active and passive principles, which respectively give birth to and support the existence of the "ten thousand things." These are represented, in turn, by the circle at the base of the chart."

I can't be exactly certain where Kishimoto would take this idea. I would combine all of this to extrapolate that True Yang is utilized with True Yin to create and/or radically change "The Ten Thousand Things." Given that the world we live in is seen as somewhat illusionary and a product of the 'mundane self' by Taoist standards, it would then be implied that "Creation of All Things" implies a greater ability to create other mundane entities from the Tao - more so than creating physical illusions within the world.

Which does bring up an interesting point to the "World of Lies" so frequently cited by Kisame, and makes me wonder about something else I've been running across in my research of Taoism - and that is the notion of "A thousand I's".

Basically, the idea is that each person is made up of a thousand smaller identities that all interact in support and competition of each other. Part of the goal of the 'firing process' to create the 'elixir' is to unify all of these entities and/or consolidate them down to one identity. Which would be a rather interesting ending to Naruto - to find it has been a battle within a monk's mind (possibly a monk named Naruto). Though an ending like that would probably piss a bunch of people off. Though it would be a sort of "Inception-like" ending. What's to say the 'true' Naruto is not just another bunch of 'I's' within a greater mind?

Anyway - my point is that the structure of Taoism would suggest that Ninshuu and Ninjutsu are all products of the mundane and would really only have the ability to alter within the confines of the "Ten Thousand Things" - all-out creation would be above and beyond the abilities of mundane yin/yang.

This really depends upon how Kishimoto wants to run with the idea of True/Mundane Yin/Yang - if he runs with it at all. Perhaps Creation of All Things was used only temporarily after a great amount of preparation. The work and effort put forth into obtaining the "Elixir of Immortality" - the process for obtaining True Yang - is monumental. Perhaps the Sage was only able to obtain and use the power for a brief period of time before losing it.

Perhaps he seeks to extract the Elixir of Life from the likes of Naruto and others (a sort of internal/external alchemy hybrid approach) because his fixation upon the physical world has prevented him from obtaining the power necessary to complete what he started. Or perhaps he wishes for his mother to have the power.

Perhaps the Juubi's fruit is "The Golden Flower" - the Elixir of Immortality, and all of my speculation on the Sage's motives is silly (though it could also be that the power of the Juubi's fruit - the Eliixir of Immortality - could be created in ways other than the Juubi, itself - and perhaps that is part of what Hagoromo is doing... there's a lot of room for him to have fun with the ideas).

Or, perhaps once you've 'seen' what needs to be seen, you forever have Creation of All Things.

Maybe it just depends upon whether or not you're an Uchiha and/or have Senju DNA. Sometimes the flat-ness of Kishimoto's story development is ... disappointing.

This one hasn't been entirely explained, but sealing jutsu certainly plays a part in this. Fuinjutsu is different in that it seems to draw power from elsewhere. I have speculated that sealing jutsu was originally an extension of early Uzumaki practices (Pre-Sage) involving shamanistic rituals and symbols that directed the flow of nature chakra to perform work (perhaps using a catalyst reaction from the chakra of a being with chakra).

The idea, here, would be that you use a human sacrifice (Qi and Jing) and use a portion of one's original Jing to call to their Shen, binding it within a seal that then uses the Qi and Jing of the sacrifice (further empowered by interaction with Nature chakra - though I do not recall if Naruto is stated as being able to sense Edo summons exceptionally well through Sage mode, or not, which one would expect if Kishimoto intended to 'power' them through Nature chakra).

Although the reference to "Edo" implies the Buddhist concepts of the "Impure World" - Which could simply be an allusion to the idea that you are summoning a soul from the "Pure World" (or where those who have escaped the cycle of suffering... although this use by Kishimoto is taken with a bit of artistic liberty, as the "Pure World" is meant as a residence for truly enlightened souls - the "Impure World" is still bound to its own cycle of reincarnation and suffering).

Merging the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism would hold that the "Impure" or "Edo" world is the "Lower" or "Mundane" world. The "Pure" world of Buddhism doesn't merge as well with Taoism - but could be seen as the -state- of being 'one with the Tao.' That, or it could simply mean that one has achieved a relatively higher state of unity with the universe (if we take the "Inception interpretation" of the many 'I's' and an infinite regression of Yin and Yang).

Though the impact to Naruto may simply be in the name and little more.

Trees and forests are not really seen as a separate life within the concepts of the Five Movements/Virtues and the I Ching:
You must be registered for see links

Wood is actually a phase of the Five Virtues - which represent the flow and cycle of life. In other interpretations it is seen as a combination of Earth, Water, and Fire, and in Naruto it is directly stated as being a specific variation of Earth and Water releases only possible by those of the Senju descent. This would imply a transitioning or empowering as opposed to a creation. I suppose that is splitting hairs fit for a court room, but when you consider that people spit impossible sums of water out of their mouth - there is likely some distinction between "Creation of All Things" and "Stop flooding the damned place, already - where in the hell is that water coming from?"

In the end, that is all somewhat vague. It is also possible that the Senju's ability to sprout and/or manipulate wood is more directly related to the capabilities of the Juubi (much as how the Elder Son seemed to inherit the eyes of the Sage, resembling the eye of the Juubi; perhaps the younger son inherited the body in a literal sense of being able to utilize the body of the Juubi - which is wood/trees).

Of course, that brings up the question of: "So where in the heck do the Uzumaki fit into all of this?" Which I've discussed that already, but it's a factor that is relevant to the overall structure of Naruto.

I agree.

It is odd, to me, that he introduces the idea of Indra and Ashura. While I am not exactly opposed to the notion of reincarnation - I find the Sage's insinuation that his sons are perpetually reincarnated as being somewhat... troubling. If his drifting through time to observe and attempt to guide his sons to peace was such a noble effort, one would expect results considerably better than the track record the Sage has established for himself.

I think the inclusion of Indra and Ashura is more of a distraction on the part of the Sage, though I am not exactly sure how. Something seems off about his whole story, but I can't quite place my finger on it. The insinuation is that Sasuke is Indra and Naruto is Ashura... but I'm wondering if that is really true, or if the Sage is trying to keep Naruto from realizing something even more important in the mix of things.

I think one gets a bit more appreciation for a series like Naruto when you look at the work(s) most probable to have been the inspiration for particular plots and events. It gives you a sense of what the author actually did. Perhaps that is a sort of underhanded jab by me, since I am insinuating that the story is difficult to appreciate on its own virtues - but I do find that I think Kishimoto has done a bit less justice to Naruto than he has to the inspirational materials for his writing.

Not going to respond to each individual point, since my thoughts on a lot of them are more or less the same. The explanations and tangents are intriguing, though I think it gets a bit iffy when trying to make a defense from a pure mythology/religion influenced viewpoint.

For example, you mentioned Black Zetsu earlier:

This would explain why Madara is, currently, not using much in the way of ninjutsu. He has, possibly, divided his Shen, Jing, and Qi into individual parts - Black Zetsu, Ivisi-Madara, and the physical Madara.

However, the fact remain that he's a being with pretty much his own mind; certainly possess the capacity to operate in the absence of Madara. Madara created Zetsu from his will, one could legitimately argue that this is an application of COAT since Zetsu is an actual being. Sure, he's not completely human, but neither are the the bijuu nor were they created from nothing.

One could maybe raise the argument Black Zetsu's life-like qualities spawned from White Zetsu. That would mean Madara's shen (just based off your interpretation of chakra) interacted with (?) to produce another being. Certainly, not many chakra objects can adhere to White Zetsu and manifest its own separate existence, accompanied by its own separate knowledge. So even if interacting with White Zetsu is the reason for it evincing, it's much like creating the bijuu from the Juubi.

Though you already suggested this as a possibility (senju+uchiha DNA), another area of focus is the Izanagi:

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Now this has the most overwhelming evidence since it outright states that it's a practical application of COAT. The statement has merit to it as well, turning reality into imagination. Anything that happens to the caster in the real world is erased, giving them considerable amount of control over the "mundane world".

Then there's the whole five chakra natures that one gets when acquiring/mastering the rinnegan, insinuating some kind of change/elevation in chakra, and bringing back people from the dead (rinnei tensei) is certainly more than a mere alteration in the mundane world.

I'm leading into the fact that Naruto's truth seeking-balls also consist of different nature transformations:

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Even with the with combination of senju and uchiha DNA and acquisition of the rinnegan, Madara didn't obtain such orbs. When Naruto was a "perfect sage", he didn't obtain such orbs. We've only seen them when one has acquired the power of the Juubi and has become "another Sage of Six Paths". Now obviously, there's a clear difference in appearance from those who have become the juubi's jinchuuriki, and current Naruto. So, the change in their chakra is obviously related, yet different.

Even when considering the philosophies Kishi may have borrowed from, it's all up in the air. It wouldn't take much effort at all from Kishi, since Naruto could have simply acquired the celestial Yin-Yang in much the same manner (however vague) you believe he acquired a higher awareness of shen. Though you pretty much agreed on this point, just explicating.

All in all, I guess one can reasonably say your interpretations supports both sides of the argument. Your reasoning and understanding are aligned with Kishi's inspirations, though what is being omitted from those inspirations and or what's being included often gets too vague for a conclusion, especially when there's instances in the manga that calls into question Kishi's interpretations/use of those philosophies/mythologies/religions.

Trees and forests are not really seen as a separate life within the concepts of the Five Movements/Virtues and the I Ching:
You must be registered for see links

Wood is actually a phase of the Five Virtues - which represent the flow and cycle of life. In other interpretations it is seen as a combination of Earth, Water, and Fire, and in Naruto it is directly stated as being a specific variation of Earth and Water releases only possible by those of the Senju descent. This would imply a transitioning or empowering as opposed to a creation. I suppose that is splitting hairs fit for a court room, but when you consider that people spit impossible sums of water out of their mouth - there is likely some distinction between "Creation of All Things" and "Stop flooding the damned place, already - where in the hell is that water coming from?"

In the end, that is all somewhat vague. It is also possible that the Senju's ability to sprout and/or manipulate wood is more directly related to the capabilities of the Juubi (much as how the Elder Son seemed to inherit the eyes of the Sage, resembling the eye of the Juubi; perhaps the younger son inherited the body in a literal sense of being able to utilize the body of the Juubi - which is wood/trees).

Of course, that brings up the question of: "So where in the heck do the Uzumaki fit into all of this?" Which I've discussed that already, but it's a factor that is relevant to the overall structure of Naruto.

Ah, I actually didn't think of it as a separate life, since I don't believe he's doing something different when creating trees than when creating a forest. I should have said trees/forest.

This one hasn't been entirely explained, but sealing jutsu certainly plays a part in this. Fuinjutsu is different in that it seems to draw power from elsewhere. I have speculated that sealing jutsu was originally an extension of early Uzumaki practices (Pre-Sage) involving shamanistic rituals and symbols that directed the flow of nature chakra to perform work (perhaps using a catalyst reaction from the chakra of a being with chakra).

The idea, here, would be that you use a human sacrifice (Qi and Jing) and use a portion of one's original Jing to call to their Shen, binding it within a seal that then uses the Qi and Jing of the sacrifice (further empowered by interaction with Nature chakra - though I do not recall if Naruto is stated as being able to sense Edo summons exceptionally well through Sage mode, or not, which one would expect if Kishimoto intended to 'power' them through Nature chakra).

Although the reference to "Edo" implies the Buddhist concepts of the "Impure World" - Which could simply be an allusion to the idea that you are summoning a soul from the "Pure World" (or where those who have escaped the cycle of suffering... although this use by Kishimoto is taken with a bit of artistic liberty, as the "Pure World" is meant as a residence for truly enlightened souls - the "Impure World" is still bound to its own cycle of reincarnation and suffering).

Merging the ideas of Taoism and Buddhism would hold that the "Impure" or "Edo" world is the "Lower" or "Mundane" world. The "Pure" world of Buddhism doesn't merge as well with Taoism - but could be seen as the -state- of being 'one with the Tao.' That, or it could simply mean that one has achieved a relatively higher state of unity with the universe (if we take the "Inception interpretation" of the many 'I's' and an infinite regression of Yin and Yang).

Though the impact to Naruto may simply be in the name and little more.

I forgot about the edos when I was making that statement.

I was actually referring to this:

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As we know, chakra is comprised of Yin and Yang, and chakra has been imbued into inanimate objects; no life arose as a result. Kabuto makes a clear distinction, he's somehow using his chakra to give life to inorganic matter.

Keeping that in mind, let's focus on Kabuto's dialogue in the following pages:

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"I think you still don't understand who I am!"

After saying that...

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^Talking about giving life to inorganic matter.

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"I'm becoming someone that can create and control." He did say becoming, but this is still hitting the nail of our discussion on the head (though that one word could very easily be a mistranslated, but I'll leave that aside since that would really get us nowhere). It implies he could do more than giving life to inorganic matter once he obtain the power he seeks.

"All the rules and principles of the natural world that Orochimaru studied thoroughly for many years... they're all stored inside me."

"I'm currently closer to the hermit of the Six Paths than any other person in this world..."

Now, Kabuto may be conceited, but he's very knowledgeable (and even if he was ignorant on what Madara could actually do/have done, that wouldn't make his belief that his abilities puts him near Hagomoro less valid). It's very interesting that he said all that despite lacking Uchiha DNA. Muki Tensei is also an SM technique, very interesting to note.

I, and I'm sure most would agree, believe that Naruto is much closer to Hagoromo than Kabuto.

I think one gets a bit more appreciation for a series like Naruto when you look at the work(s) most probable to have been the inspiration for particular plots and events. It gives you a sense of what the author actually did. Perhaps that is a sort of underhanded jab by me, since I am insinuating that the story is difficult to appreciate on its own virtues - but I do find that I think Kishimoto has done a bit less justice to Naruto than he has to the inspirational materials for his writing.

While I don't make much of an effort to inquire into Kishi's inspirations (aside from reading the theory threads whenever I see them/when I'm in the mood), I agree that it can enlighten one's perspective of the series.

Vega · May 13, 2014

davidou said:
How smart do you feel when you begin a sentence by "as I've already stated"?

You didn't understand the problem so your answer is irrelevant.You don't understand implied things.
Simple words for you (I'm going to rewrite what I've already said):
If Naruto has COAT , Madara can't win against team 7 even with COAT , there is no suspens...

You act as someone > , I hate to discuss with you for that.

There is nothing to feel smart over, as I was reiterating something I already said, so you need to reassess your own mindset.

Alas, I'm well aware with what was mentioned as I've already discussed (let me guess, I'm trying to sound smart? ) this with another fellow who concocted a rather strange yet curious discussion.

@Underline Madara won't win in the end, he is going to lose as does any other villain. Besides, he's getting his second rinnegan so naturally his power will increase.
And it should be quite clear that Madara has already used a smaller scale of Banbutsu Sozo via the Manifestation of Will and Light/Shadow style creations.

Latter portion of underline is also Irrelevant. That's simply your conjecture regarding your personal taste. There isn't much suspense left in the manga despite a few possibilities per say Kaguya's role, along with a few other things.

If you hate to discuss with me then why bother? You are contradicting yourself with that statement. I'm very open to discussion but arbitrary actions like this reflect your own character to me. Grazie.

[Theory] Naruto Used a form of Banbutsu Sōzō [Creation of All Things]

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Kage in the Making 👑

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