[Theory] Naruto Used a form of Banbutsu Sōzō [Creation of All Things]
- Thread starter Vega
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Behemoth55
Active member
I can't quite concur with you, and Naruto's words aren't exactly clear, I guess at this point it'd probably be best to wait for the VIZ for a better translation I suppose. Good discussion nonetheless. Lol
It very well probably is.
narutoblitz
Active member
Naruto doesn't have Yin-Yang release. He hasn't used Yang to destroy anything. Here's from Japanese message boards:
2Chan dudes think Sasuke's power is to bend/destroy stuff, including space and time. Naruto's ability is to create stuff. Sasuke didn't dodge Madara's attack, he destroyed the space around Madara, shortening the distance beyond Madara's ability to perceive and then cutting him in half.
Naruto's power obviously is light-release. He creates shit, such as eyes or hearts.
2Chan dudes think Sasuke's power is to bend/destroy stuff, including space and time. Naruto's ability is to create stuff. Sasuke didn't dodge Madara's attack, he destroyed the space around Madara, shortening the distance beyond Madara's ability to perceive and then cutting him in half.
Naruto's power obviously is light-release. He creates shit, such as eyes or hearts.
Naruto already has Yin-Yang release via Truth Seeking balls acquired to him via the Six Paths Senjutsu. I've already stated that this Banbutsu Sozo isn't equivalent to Hagoromo's because Naruto has more Yoton than Inton.That Japanese board thing was also interesting in regards to Sasuke.
Naruto didn't use "creation of all things."
Naruto used the power of Ninshu.
Ninshu was most likely an art developed and practiced by the Ototsuki, who were alien beings born with chakra. Kaguya obtained the power of the God Tree by consuming the fruit and ruled over the lesser beings to bring peace and order to them. Her close involvement with the God Tree ended up with her involved in the lives of the shamans who tended the tree on the island of Uzu (the Uzumaki). Thus we get the Sage and his brother.
The Uzumaki likely learned to evoke nature chakra through rituals and symbols (the origins of sealing jutsu and very early forms of 'sage' abilities). It was through these influences that Hagoromo was trained up until a contingent of the Ototsuki arrived to arrest Kaguya, who had become obsessed with control and authority (perhaps she was actually an escaped convict of some kind). The resulting battle stranded the ototsuki and shifted the development of the Uzumaki toward seals to check vast sums of power. The eight trigrams seal was likely co-developed with the Ototsuki warriors.
The Eight Trigrams seal was developed to seal Kaguya and to force her to become a part of the Dead Demon Consuming Seal - as evidenced by the fact that all who evoke the Dead Demon are left with an Eight Trigrams seal upon their body.
I imagine Hagoromo sealed half of the Juubi's chakra inside of himself. The other half ultimately was distributed to the people (perhaps this was the fate of his brother - sacrificed to 'enable peace') of the planet, who were supposed to be brought together by the practice of ninshu.
But, of course, they weren't (and I suspect that Hagoromo knew exactly how humans would respond).
Even the art of the 'sage' differs between its original implementation under the Uzumaki and Ototsuki. Ninjutsu utilizes one's own chakra, and for it to work with natural energy, requires it to be drawn into one's self and balanced. No such requirements existed prior to the development of ninjutsu - where the 'sage' could directly work with the natural chakra around him/her.
Naruto used the power of Ninshu.
Ninshu was most likely an art developed and practiced by the Ototsuki, who were alien beings born with chakra. Kaguya obtained the power of the God Tree by consuming the fruit and ruled over the lesser beings to bring peace and order to them. Her close involvement with the God Tree ended up with her involved in the lives of the shamans who tended the tree on the island of Uzu (the Uzumaki). Thus we get the Sage and his brother.
The Uzumaki likely learned to evoke nature chakra through rituals and symbols (the origins of sealing jutsu and very early forms of 'sage' abilities). It was through these influences that Hagoromo was trained up until a contingent of the Ototsuki arrived to arrest Kaguya, who had become obsessed with control and authority (perhaps she was actually an escaped convict of some kind). The resulting battle stranded the ototsuki and shifted the development of the Uzumaki toward seals to check vast sums of power. The eight trigrams seal was likely co-developed with the Ototsuki warriors.
The Eight Trigrams seal was developed to seal Kaguya and to force her to become a part of the Dead Demon Consuming Seal - as evidenced by the fact that all who evoke the Dead Demon are left with an Eight Trigrams seal upon their body.
I imagine Hagoromo sealed half of the Juubi's chakra inside of himself. The other half ultimately was distributed to the people (perhaps this was the fate of his brother - sacrificed to 'enable peace') of the planet, who were supposed to be brought together by the practice of ninshu.
But, of course, they weren't (and I suspect that Hagoromo knew exactly how humans would respond).
Even the art of the 'sage' differs between its original implementation under the Uzumaki and Ototsuki. Ninjutsu utilizes one's own chakra, and for it to work with natural energy, requires it to be drawn into one's self and balanced. No such requirements existed prior to the development of ninjutsu - where the 'sage' could directly work with the natural chakra around him/her.
Well that was long.
I agree on Kaguya's possible extra-terrestrial origins; that whole monologue on the Uzumaki shaman thing was rather speculatory though well-written along with most of the statements. Nice train of thought though.
Ninshuu is merely the means to spiritual connect people.
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Naruto had already replicated Ninshuu before in the manga when he spread his spiritual connection to the Shinobi alliance as well as calling his friends.
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Banbutsu Sozo is not Ninshuu, its Ninjutsu. Furthermore off-spring Jutsus like Izanagi share the same trait. And mainly this would be Naruto's unique form of COAT.
That is actually about as brief as I get.
It's a bit deeper than that:
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I've speculated on the Uzumaki origins from a while back.
That is hardly the extent of the abilities of Ninshu.
Ninshu is somewhat different from ninjutsu. Ninshu revolves around the Five Elements theory of human anatomy.
In Taoism, the Eight Trigrams are the universal elements while the Five Elements are those that form the body and spirit.
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Naruto's 'new ability' has not been consistent with ninjutsu.
In neither case did he create anything. He repaired damage to a person. What little evidence there is suggests that Naruto's abilities are far more in line with Ninshu than with Ninjutsu.
Ninshu is far, far more than the idea of giving people chakra from a tailed beast. Being able to do that is like the water walking exercise of chakra control for ninjutsu. It's a basic talent/ability/requirement to use Ninshu.
My friend, He Made an Eye in thin air. We cannot literally take his words that he took a piece of Kakashi, as he literally right after states its more complicated then a simply piece & revive. Personally I'm stilling looking forward to what the Viz says. And though that Taoist jargon may be intriguing, but it alarms too much Hyuuga allusion to me which is rather irrelevant; and I can't say I entirely agree with that as Kishi incorporates various philosophies/ideologies in his work. I've made many threads on this, but a brief example would be one way he incorporates Creation from Christianity:
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As I mentioned Naruto successfully reached that goal of Ninshuu to connect one another's with passion. Moreso Naruto isn't emanating any sole-representation of the Uzumaki with his role right now; he's Ashura's (and possibly Hagoromo's) successor. Anyways nice discussion, but let's not derail the thread
No, he told Kakashi to close his eye, touched Kakashi's closed eye, and then told him to open it.
You are jumping to the conclusion that he created an eye. He rejuvinated Kakashi's eye.
He's doing more than working with damaged tissue, because he is using Ninshu.
The entire Naruto saga started because of Kaguya, who embraced a heretical philosophy within Taoism by seeking power that was not hers and to overcome every obstacle with more power.
Similarly, Hagoromo is a heretic and embraced the Outer Path - seeking to create a world according to his ideals rather than learning to work within the natural world.
This is why the Hyuuga do not use ninjutsu.
All of the plot of Naruto is based around Taoism and closely related concepts of Budhism with a flavoring of Shintoism for the Uchiha and Hinduism for the Senju.
There really isn't any Christian base in Naruto.
The more you study religions, the more you realize there are many similar concepts and even legends/events shared between them (even across culturally isolated groups - which is incredibly interesting... whatever inspired the story was an exceptionally profound event).
But there really isn't any Christianity designed into Naruto.
"But... Aim... Tree... Fruit..."
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The inspiration for the Juubi is:
"The first known mention of tree spirits is in Japan’s oldest known book, the Kojiki (Record of Thing’s Past) that talks about the tree god Wakunochi-no-kami, second born of the godling brood of Izanagi and Izanami."
The Uzumaki also have their origins, here:
"In Aogashima, Izu Islands, people place small shrines at the base of cryptomeria (Japanese cedar) trees and still worship and pray to them. This is said to be the remainders of a nature-worshiping religion that once dominated."
The Izu island chain was the inspiration for the island of Uzu in Naruto. From this, we get the Uzumaki, who were the original tenants of Wakunochi-no-kami - the God Tree, or Juubi.
Kaguya is a direct reference to "The Bamboo Cutter" - a tale about a young girl found in a glowing bamboo stalk who grew into a beautiful woman before her people returned from the moon to reclaim her.
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There is also a possible allusion to the "Moon Rabbit" - a story -
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- where a rabbit, fox, and monkey respond to an old man's begging for food. The rabbit sacrificed itself upon the fire and was not burned in honor of its sacrifice (the old man revealed himself to be Sakra (the ruler of heaven) and engraved the image of the rabbit on the moon).To understand what is happening now, you have to look beyond the simplistic concept of reincarnation.
Naruto and Sasuke are an upcoming fight (perhaps not necessarily the next). Sasuke's goal is to destroy the world. This touches on philosophy - the many different ways people embraced an evil and selfish path with different outcomes. This is what I mean by the core of Naruto is Taoism, which is partially why the Hyuuga have been reserved for last.
Ninshu is not simply chakra connecting with people's emotions. That's the tip of the iceberg.
Much of Taoist medicine is not intended to directly treat what is going on. It is meant to 'balance' and 'react' with the body's energy to empower it to a desired outcome. It goes with the Taoist philosophy of "Wei Wu Wei" - Action without Effort, or to do without doing. The motto of the Taoist master is: "Nothing is done, yet nothing is left undone."
You have to view the 'lesson' of Naruto through that lens.
To understand the greater plot, you have to realize that the Sage is walking the same path as Madara, just with his own destination in mind:
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"The Eight Trigram Furnace is a Taoist symbol. The furnace symbolizes the method for creating the Golden Elixir (Pill) through the Firing Process.
Each of the eight trigrams is made up of Yang (———) and Yin (— —) lines. Yang stands for the mind of Tao and Yin stands for the human mind.
The crescent moon symbolizes the sudden manifestation of the celestial root in people when they have attained utter stillness. This celestial root is called the mind of Tao. A furnace is a vessel in which fire is used; because the mind of Tao has a Yang light which can be used to burn away a person`s mundanity (Yin energy), the mind of Tao is also represented as a furnace. Actually, the mind of Tao is the Heart of Heaven and Earth. -- Liu Yiming (18th C. Taoist master)"
The symbols on Naruto and Sasuke's hands are not the Sun and Moon. They are phases of the moon.
Hagoromo is steering events toward the creation of the Elixir of Life - the Gold Elixir, or the Elixir of Immortality. Most likely to release Kaguya from her seal as the Dead Demon.
Naruto is the one who will walk the right path, however.
Ninjutsu is a heresy, in a sense. It is the utilization of unnatural power to overcome obstacles. While it is natural for heretics to be heretics (welcome to the paradoxes of Taoism that are infinitely fun to explore), if a time of peace is to come, then Ninjutsu is not the answer to the problem. It is a means to ending a current problem - but it is not the long term solution to the problem.
When a Kodama is cut down, a celebration is held to appease the spirit - so we'll likely see Ninshu play a part of that.
But this all builds to Ninshu being a natural power. Rather than using one's chakra to force change - one uses their chakra to evoke a change in another person's chakra. This should sound suspiciously similar to the combat techniques of the Hyuuga - because Ninshu was originally an art practiced by the Hyuuga (with the Jyuuken being a militarization of the concept). It was not an art of empowering one's self, but an art of empowering others - an art where people share very deep connections in order to better each others' lives.
Ninshu is just as powerful and versatile as ninjutsu - it is just with an entirely different focus. And it is necessary to appease the God Tree, angered by the theft of its chakra.
But there is still a missing factor. The current fruit must be dealt with. There is a person who shares Naruto's destiny, as has been bluntly stated during the Chuunin exams.
If it is Naruto's duty to deal with the human mind, it is her duty to deal with the mind of the Tao.
Though I'm sure the meaning of all of it will go right over the heads of most of the people who read/watch Naruto.
Very interesting Aim64c , you seem to know a lot on Taoism.
I agree with you on the fact that Naruto and Sasuke's symbol on their hands are representing moon phases:
-Naruto's moon is full moon.
-Sasuke's moon is in the waxing gibbous.
-Indra's moon is in the waning crescent.
-Sakura's symbol could very well represent new moon.
Have those phases signification in Taoism?
I agree with you on the fact that Naruto and Sasuke's symbol on their hands are representing moon phases:
-Naruto's moon is full moon.
-Sasuke's moon is in the waxing gibbous.
-Indra's moon is in the waning crescent.
-Sakura's symbol could very well represent new moon.
Have those phases signification in Taoism?
FreeTanner17
Active member
Pretty sure vega is competely correct but nothing's too clear right now. We need more backup info. Plus, sasukes rinnegan ability is to shift, not to destroy space. That has nothing to do with the abilities of the seal on his hand. We have yet to see the other abilities he gained
I personally don't think so. I think he used a form of Yang Release. He breathed life into form, while Sasuke, using his Yin Release, can create form from nothing.
Naruto and Sasuke together can use COAT
No, Madara pulled Kakashi's eye out of his socket. Meaning Kakashi lacked his eyeball in his socket which Naruto created in thin air. Rejuvenate literally means to take something already present and restore it. So Naruto didn't rejuvenate Kakashi's eye as that would mean fixing up a damaged eye which /= making a new eye.
Much of this is rather irrelevant to the specific case, and the Hyuuga are irrelevant with this specific case. I understand you like them and this is interesting stuff but they serve no purpose with Naruto's ability regardless if you want them to or not.
This is straight-out wrong, Kishi incorporates all Religions. He has taken countless instances with Christianity such as Original Sin, Adam and Eve, Abel and Cain, and the serpentine Satan just to name a few.
Kishimoto did not solely gather his inspirations from Japanese context solely as clear indications of other ideologies are present. And again, much of this stated here is irrelevant and off-topic. And I have studied religions so I am well aware of what I talk about.
Pure speculation without justification; Sasuke wants to destroy the world is something you just made up.
You're basing all your assumptions off from Taoist perceptions of the world, and rather out of context and irrelevant again. And that's your opinion to what the moon symbolizes which again you linked to your idea of the Naruto philosophy linked with Taoism.
Speculation and your own opinion; as there's equal evidence to support its the sun. And the latter portion is pure speculation on your behalf.
This isn't anything new, we already know this.
Again this is out of context, given the current situation the reality is that Naruto is using Ninjutsu and Senjutsu to fight his battle against Madara. Ninshuu comes to the broader scheme of things.
My friend you need to cut down on this arbitrary Hyuuga incorporation.
Again, your post is filled with speculation and your own personal twist to the Manga. I don't mean to sound blunt as I do think some of what you wrote is interesting, but this isn't relevant and these are your own conclusions based from inconclusive Taoist beliefs. Perhaps we can continue this conversation another time in VM, but I specifically request we not fill the thread with these menial statements anymore. Thank you.
Refer to my above information. Kakashi had no eyeball in his socket. Fixing an eye /=/ making an eye.
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Exactly right. It is painfully obvious that Naruto didn't use COAT, he clearly regenerated eye tissues in kakashi i.e. breathed life into the form of kakashi, restoring his missing tissues. It's that simple. Regeneration of tissues =/= creating a form from nothing and breathing life into it. Did naruto create a new kakashi/person? Did he imagine a new human life in his mind, use chakra to form the being, then bring that new being to life miraculously? Obviously, he did not. He even stated himself he used part of kakashi, an already existing form, and breathed some life into it. We would know if he used COAT, it would be quite clear. This power is not that, it is simply Yang.
Anyone who disagrees, please show me when naruto created a new form with Yin release, I will be happy to retract my statements if anyone can prove with manga facts that Naruto used Yin Yang release.
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My lord, I've probably addressed this same thing a million times. Kakashi had no eyeball, Naruto made him a new eyeball out of thin air. Or is next someone going to tell me he pulled it out of his rear? And I've already stated as well that this is a lesser scale of COAT. And yes Naruto's words were rather short so I look forward to the VIZ.