Naruto Shippuden Episode 462 " Fabricated Past" Discussion

[raezil]

This episode proves some things. For example It proves how obito was able throw away juubi from his body, still being jinchuriki of ten tails.

First: As Black Zetsu said she had leftovers of her power before sealing, so chibaku tensei depowered her and this is how gedo mazo was created.
Second: Based that Hagoromo and Hamura look older I can say It takes few years of Myoboku. So possibility that Indra and Ashura are already alive is quite possible and the idea of cooperation came from young ashura.
Third: Hagoromo absorbed Juubi, who was Shinju, Kaguya summon(like susanoo). Shinju had some consciousness of Kaguya, It was beeing controlled by her. Maybe by eating chakra fruit Kaguya created a link between her and god tree.
Fourth: Rikudo Chibaku Tensei seals absolutely power and that why kaguya turns into Gedo Mazo, but what is gedo mazo exactly, why kaguya turns into this after loosing her powers? Maybe those Ootsutsuki's who ate chakra fruit and lose their powers, turns into Gedo Statue thing.
Fifth: Kaguya's depowered state( Gedo Mazo) + Shinju(Juubi, that had some link with Kaguya) is the only way to bring Kaguya bsck. Look Sasuke used kabuto fleshes which contain orochimaru's chakra with anko cursed seal(Orochimaru's conciousness) and Orochimaru came back to live.

 

[Marin]

>has no counter arguments to prove his opponent's point wrong

>insults his opponent instead

>cries and runs away

Exactly what I expected from you :bdpf: welcome to my ignore list :lol

I'm sorry I haven't really been following his replies, but you didn't really lay out any facts yourself. The scans you provided were just retelling the story from one character's perspective, rather than it being the actual word of the narrator.

I too, don't see any contradictions in this episode so, while it may not be canon, it might as well be.

 

[Troyg39]

Manga version: Hago seals juubi, then creates bijuu after seeing Ashura and believing in cooporation, doesn't know he's fighting his mother

Anime version: Hago defeats juubi, seals his mother, and creates 9 bijuu right after the battle, fully aware it's his mom he's fighting

It's clear the Anime is telling a different version of the story from what Kishi told nothing to even argue about there. So instead of the back and forth trying to make the two seem as if they correlate, let's just agree that some people stick to the original story, while some people like the alternative anime version

 

[Mari Makinami]

Good grief, in newest episode, around 14:20, those all 9 tailed beasts which got divided from 10 tails literally goes inside Hagoromo, meaning they are sealed. You are just looking for aesthetics and do not see forest behind trees.

9 bijuu do not equal the Juubi. Otherwise Naruto were a Juubi Jin. Kindly read the whole discussion before repeating the arguments that's already been countered.

I'm sorry I haven't really been following his replies, but you didn't really lay out any facts yourself. The scans you provided were just retelling the story from one character's perspective, rather than it being the actual word of the narrator.

I too, don't see any contradictions in this episode so, while it may not be canon, it might as well be.

@bold - Huh? The first scan is from Obito's perspective when he told the story to the Gokage during the Kage Summit. The other two are from Hagoromo's perspective when he's telling the story himself, to Naruto.

@narrowed - Oh really? Apparently posting 3 manga scans from the perspectives of 2 different characters, one of which is the person with whom the event actually happened, is not what we call providing facts. :kk:

 

[Troyg39]

9 bijuu do not equal the Juubi. Otherwise Naruto were a Juubi Jin.

This was so clearly understood during the manga

 

[Marin]

@bold - Huh? The first scan is from Obito's perspective when he told the story to the Gokage during the Kage Summit. The other two are from Hagoromo's perspective when he's telling the story himself, to Naruto.

@narrowed - Oh really? Apparently posting 3 manga scans from the perspectives of 2 different characters, one of which is the person with whom the event actually happened, is not what we call providing facts. :kk:

Allow me to correct myself. You did post facts (in the form of scans), but those facts didn't help the point you're trying to make.

Better?

 

[Mari Makinami]

Allow me to correct myself. You did post facts (in the form of scans), but those facts didn't help the point you're trying to make.

Better?

Nope. My point is the following: it's been stated in the manga multiple times that Hagoromo sealed the Juubi inside of his body, creating the nine Bijuu later on. And it never happened in today's episode - instead, the Juubi turned into some poop and disappeared, it hasn't been sealed into Hagoromo and thus he hasn't become a Juubi Jin, which he was according to both the manga scans I posted and the 4th databook. Therefore the episode contradicts the canon. Simple.

Sealing 9 bijuu (which, according to the episode, happened sometime later) does not equal sealing a juubi, because otherwise Naruto would've become a Juubi Jin, which he hasn't.

 

[123fire]

Manga version: Hago seals juubi, then creates bijuu after seeing Ashura and believing in cooporation, doesn't know he's fighting his mother

Anime version: Hago defeats juubi, seals his mother, and creates 9 bijuu right after the battle, fully aware it's his mom he's fighting

It's clear the Anime is telling a different version of the story from what Kishi told nothing to even argue about there. So instead of the back and forth trying to make the two seem as if they correlate, let's just agree that some people stick to the original story, while some people like the alternative anime version

He didn't create them he scattered them reread the manga or post a scan proving this , didn't know he's fighting his mother? Wtf? Where was this said in the manag they clearly know that they're fighting their mother

 

[123fire]

Nope. My point is the following: it's been stated in the manga multiple times that Hagoromo sealed the Juubi inside of his body, creating the nine Bijuu later on. And it never happened in today's episode - instead, the Juubi turned into some poop and disappeared, it hasn't been sealed into Hagoromo and thus he hasn't become a Juubi Jin, which he was according to both the manga scans I posted and the 4th databook. Therefore the episode contradicts the canon. Simple.

Sealing 9 bijuu (which, according to the episode, happened sometime later) does not equal sealing a juubi, because otherwise Naruto would've become a Juubi Jin, which he hasn't.

Naruto had little chakra from each bijuu hagoromo had full bijuus , get your facts straight , the episode did show us he sealed the juubi(9 tailed beasts) inside him . Now its 3 against one stop proving yourself wrong and deal with it

 

[Marin]

Nope. My point is the following: it's been stated in the manga multiple times that Hagoromo sealed the Juubi inside of his body, creating the nine Bijuu later on. And it never happened in today's episode - instead, the Juubi turned into some poop and disappeared, it hasn't been sealed into Hagoromo and thus he hasn't become a Juubi Jin, which he was according to both the manga scans I posted and the databook. Therefore the episode contradicts the manga. Simple.

Actually, that's not how it went. We never got to see how the fight played out nor did we see the exact scene of Juubi getting defeated and split/sealed. We only got to see Kaguya get CTed and the Juubi's outside body turn to dust as the effect of Kaguya (who was controlling it) getting immobilized. We never saw how Hagoromo got the Juubi split in 9 parts nor did we see what happened to the Juubi remains.

Sealing 9 bijuu (which, according to the episode, happened sometime later) does not equal sealing a juubi, because otherwise Naruto would've become a Juubi Jin, which he didn't.

Juubi is all the Bijuu put together. The manga was clear on Hagoromo splitting the Juubi in 9 parts (as was the case here) so indeed sealing 9 Bijuu is the same as sealing the Juubi as Juubi is just all the Bijuu lumped together.

Naruto never got all the Bijuus sealed inside him, they simply shared their chakra with him which is why he has a link with them, so your argument is invalid.

 

[Mari Makinami]

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^mfw when I told that crybaby that I've ignored him and he still quotes me after saying that he's not replying anymore and running away

Actually, that's not how it went. We never got to see how the fight played out nor did we see the exact scene of Juubi getting defeated and split/sealed.

We have a scan where Hagoromo clearly says that the Juubi was sealed into him, not to mention the other evidence that proves this. And it didn't happen in today's episode. I understand that you are entitled to your opinion, but kindly stop denying the facts.

We only got to see Kaguya get CTed and the Juubi's outside body turn to dust as the effect of Kaguya (who was controlling it) getting immobilized. We never saw how Hagoromo got the Juubi split in 9 parts nor did we see what happened to the Juubi remains.

True, but what does it have to do with my point aside from proving it even further?

Juubi is all the Bijuu put together.

No. The Juubi is all the Bijuu plus Gedo Mazo put together.

The manga was clear on Hagoromo splitting the Juubi in 9 parts (as was the case here) so indeed sealing 9 Bijuu is the same as sealing the Juubi as Juubi is just all the Bijuu lumped together.

No it's not unless they are sealed into the Gedo Mazo.

Naruto never got all the Bijuus sealed inside him,

Neither did Obito, yet he still became a Juubi Jin.

 

[Marin]

We have a scan where Hagoromo clearly says that the Juubi was sealed into him, not to mention the other evidence that proves this. And it didn't happen in today's episode. I understand that you are entitled to your opinion, but kindly stop denying the facts.

True, but what does it have to do with my point?

It did happen. The Juubi was sealed into him when he sealed the 9 Bijuu inside himself. That's what my second paragraph was reffering to. The part which you asked about, is where I'm talking about this and the point is that they didn't show us how or when the Juubi was split nor did it show the Mazo.

It is simply said that Hagoromo sealed the Juubi inside him and sealed his empty husk (the one that was left crippled upon Kaguya's defeat) in what became the moon. None of this is denied in the episode as we simply saw Kaguya get defeated and then skipped to Hagoromo sealing the Bijuu in himself.

No. The Juubi is all the Bijuu plus Gedo Mazo put together.

The Gedo Mazo is simply Juubi's remains, an empty shell that once contained its essense (chakra) which has been taken out and split into 9 Bijuu.

No it's not unless they are sealed into the Gedo Mazo.

Nowhere does it say that. Even in the manga, Hagoromo sealed the Mazo in the moon (which was later summoned back by Madara) and Hagoromo became the Jinchuriki by sealing the Juubi. So this makes us conclude that Juubi is just the Bijuu and not the empty shell.

The shell was simply used as a tool to rejuvenate the beast because Madara and Obito didn't have any other means of making themselves into Jinchurikis.

Neither did Obito, yet he still became a Juubi Jin.

Obito sealed the Mazo, which contained all the Bijuus, in himself, using the Mazo as a container to get to the 9 Bijuu. Not even comparable to the small link Naruto got. ._.

 

[Urda]

Anime:
- They fought Kaguya
- Never shown him becoming Juubi Jinchuuriki

Manga:
- Didn't know the were fight Kaguya
- Hurama sealed the Juubi inside Hagroome
- Close to his death bed, he split the Juubi and scattered the nine tailed beast

 

[Troyg39]

He didn't create them he scattered them reread the manga

Manga Facts: Hago sealed the juubi during the fight, later had his sons, Ashura grew up and inspired Hago with cooporation, which was what made him create 9 bijuu and name Ashura as the successor

Scans:

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, page 13: Hago says he sealed juubi

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, page 14: Hago says "later on, I had two sons"

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, pages 17 and 18: Hago clearly explains it was after seeing Ashura's life and cooporation he created 9 bijuu and named him successor

Filler Facts: Hago never sealed the actual Juubi, already created 9 bijuu before Ashura was even born, or matured.

didn't know he's fighting his mother? Wtf? Where was this said in the manag they clearly know that they're fighting their mother

Manga Facts: In Chapter 670, page 13, Hago is telling Naruto the story of him sealing the juubi, he thinks he's fighting the juubi to repent for Kaguya's sins, never mentioning the juubi is his mother. Later, Black Zetsu tells Naruto and Sasuke Hago didn't know that was his mother. He seals his mom by sealing the juubi

Scans:

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, page 13: Hago mentions fighting juubi for Kaguya's sins and says the incarnation was trying to take back the chakra

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 681, page 11: Black Zetsu explains it wasn't the incarnation but Kaguya, and states Hago knew nothing of it

Filler Facts: Hago knows the entire time he is fighting his mother, and seals her directly with Hamura, in the same way Naruto and Sasuke sealed her

Now ****boy what do you have to say?

 

[Mari Makinami]

It did happen. The Juubi was sealed into him when he sealed the 9 Bijuu inside himself.

No, it's not the same. I've already explained why and I'm not going to repeat myself.

It is simply said that Hagoromo sealed the Juubi inside him and sealed his empty husk (the one that was left crippled upon Kaguya's defeat) in what became the moon. None of this is denied in the episode as we simply saw Kaguya get defeated and then skipped to Hagoromo sealing the Bijuu in himself.

Sealing the 9 bijuu doesn't equal sealing the Juubi, unless you can show us the manga scan where somebody that doesn't have the Mazo sealed inside of him becomes the Juubi Jin. I'm going to ignore this argument of yours until you provide the manga evidence, sorry. I'm growing tired of this nonsense.

Nowhere does it say that. Even in the manga, Hagoromo sealed the Mazo in the moon (which was later summoned back by Madara) and Hagoromo became the Jinchuriki by sealing the Juubi. So this makes us conclude that Juubi is just the Bijuu and not the empty shell.

You can conclude whatever you want, but it will remain just your theory unless you have some solid manga proof, and I haven't seen a scan from you yet.

The shell was simply used as a tool to rejuvenate the beast because Madara and Obito didn't have any other means of making themselves into Jinchurikis.

Interesting. I hope you can prove this claim with either a manga or a databook scan? Because I smell fanfic here.

Obito sealed the Mazo, which contained all the Bijuus, in himself, using the Mazo as a container to get to the 9 Bijuu. Not even comparable to the small link Naruto got. ._.

@bold - but it didn't. It didn't contain either Hachibi nor any of Kyuubi's halves. Which makes it evident that in order to revive the Juubi, you just need the chakra from all the beasts plus the Gedo Mazo.

 

[Marin]

No, it's not the same. I've already explained why and I'm not going to repeat myself.



Sealing the 9 bijuu doesn't equal sealing the Juubi, unless you can show us the manga scan where somebody that doesn't have the Mazo sealed inside of him becomes the Juubi Jin. I'm going to ignore this argument of yours until you provide the manga evidence, sorry. I'm growing tired of this nonsense.



You can conclude whatever you want, but it will remain just your theory unless you have some solid manga proof, and I haven't seen a scan from you yet.



Interesting. I hope you can prove this claim with either a manga or a databook scan? Because I smell fanfic here.



@bold - but it didn't. It didn't content either Hachibi nor any of Kyuubi's halves. Which makes it evident that in order to revive the Juubi, you just need the chakra from all the beasts plus the Gedo Mazo.

Ok, since the point of disagreement here is only the Gedo Mazo and the terms of becoming a Juubi Jin, I might as well stop cutting posts.

So, who became the Juubi Jin without using the Gedo? Hagoromo. He simply sealed the Juubi inside him while he sealed the Mazo in the moon. Therefore, he became a Juubi Jin without the Mazo. Let's put this aside tho, what is Juubi and what are Bijuu? Bijuu are beings of chakra. This has been said over and over again. They're manifestations of Juubi's chakra, literally living forms of Chakra as it has been said back in 256 by Chiyo.

Spoiler

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It has also again been stated in 467 along with the fact that Juubi is a fusion of the 9 Bijuu. (No mention of the Mazo what so ever.)

Spoiler

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So we know that the Bijuu are chakra, and the Juubi is simply all those Bijuu combined ie all that chakra combined, because logically a group of chakra is a group consisting of members that are chakra no? The Mazo was only ever mentioned in the context of Akatsuki sealing the Bijuu back. It was never said that the Mazo was a crucial part of the Juubi.

So while my explanation may not be directly supported by the manga, it is also not directly refuted. Therefore, the explanation is a possible scenario that isn't guarantied to have happened, but had a good chance of happening. From this it follows that while the explanation isn't perfect, but still an imperfect explanation is better than no explanation at all. So long as there is no contradiction, it can pass.

As for the Mazo at the time Obito absorbed it, it did in fact contain them. Not in full part, but it contained a portion of Kurama and Gyuki along with the complete Bijuus of others, so he indeed did have all the necessarry ingredients. Simply not all of it. It's one thing to have the majority of something and only lack a small part and a completely different thing to have a small part of something and lack the majority of it.

 

[HENI]

Wrong. Nine Biju + Gedo Mazo = Juubi. Otherwise Naruto would've been a Juubi Jin, which he's not.

Not to invalidate you, but the 9 Bijuu's chakra is equal to the Juubi's chakra. The Gedo Mazo is just a body.

 

[Troyg39]

Ok, since the point of disagreement here is only the Gedo Mazo and the terms of becoming a Juubi Jin, I might as well stop cutting posts.

So, who became the Juubi Jin without using the Gedo? Hagoromo. He simply sealed the Juubi inside him while he sealed the Mazo in the moon. Therefore, he became a Juubi Jin without the Mazo. Let's put this aside tho, what is Juubi and what are Bijuu? Bijuu are beings of chakra. This has been said over and over again. They're manifestations of Juubi's chakra, literally living forms of Chakra as it has been said back in 256 by Chiyo.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

It has also again been stated in 467 along with the fact that Juubi is a fusion of the 9 Bijuu. (No mention of the Mazo what so ever.)

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

So we know that the Bijuu are chakra, and the Juubi is simply all those Bijuu combined ie all that chakra combined, because logically a group of chakra is a group consisting of members that are chakra no? The Mazo was only ever mentioned in the context of Akatsuki sealing the Bijuu back. It was never said that the Mazo was a crucial part of the Juubi.

So while my explanation may not be directly supported by the manga, it is also not directly refuted. Therefore, the explanation is a possible scenario that isn't guarantied to have happened, but had a good chance of happening. From this it follows that while the explanation isn't perfect, but still an imperfect explanation is better than no explanation at all. So long as there is no contradiction, it can pass.

As for the Mazo at the time Obito absorbed it, it did in fact contain them. Not in full part, but it contained a portion of Kurama and Gyuki along with the complete Bijuus of others, so he indeed did have all the necessarry ingredients. Simply not all of it. It's one thing to have the majority of something and only lack a small part and a completely different thing to have a small part of something and lack the majority of it.

Not to confuse things but what I think dude is trying to say is that the juubi is literally it's own separate beast. Putting all 9 broken parts inside of you is not the same thing as sealing the already combined beast. That's why both Madara and Obito had to wait until the juubi was revived aka combined into one before they could seal it even though they already had parts of all bijuu.

If it were that simple Obito would've just put each beast inside of him as he obtained them instead of putting it in the gedo first. I believe the point of the gedo was to first combine the chakra, which isn't as simple as just sticking them all together.

I know dude asked you something like "has anyone been a juubi without sealing the gedo", but the real question is, has anyone ever been a juubi without sealing at least a weaker version of the actual 10 tails beast...which the answer to that is no.

 

[Mari Makinami]

So, who became the Juubi Jin without using the Gedo? Hagoromo.

Not without using the Mazo, but rather not having it inside of them. Like I said, provide any manga/databook evidence that proves Hagoromo not having it inside of him when he was a Juubi Jin, please. It's a rhetorical request, though, I know there is none.

He simply sealed the Juubi inside him while he sealed the Mazo in the moon. Therefore, he became a Juubi Jin without the Mazo.

We don't know that for a fact. What we know, though, is that every single Juubi Jin we've seen so far had the bijuu sealed into the Mazo beforehand.

Let's put this aside tho, what is Juubi and what are Bijuu? Bijuu are beings of chakra. This has been said over and over again. They're manifestations of Juubi's chakra, literally living forms of Chakra as it has been said back in 256 by Chiyo.

To be honest, I don't see how this is relevant. I'm well aware of the fact that we can go into pseudo sophistic discussion on what is what in a shonen manga and what the author meant here and there, and I don't feel like doing so.

It has also again been stated in 467 along with the fact that Juubi is a fusion of the 9 Bijuu. (No mention of the Mazo what so ever.)

Because the Mazo is the vessel for them, why does he need to mention it? In nutshell, yes, Juubi is the fusion of the bijuu. Just like the fusion of floor, eggs and milk can become a pancake. But in order for them to fuse into the Juubi, you need them to be sealed into the statue first, otherwise the whole sealing issue would've been pointless, much like you need to bake the fused mass of the ingredients I mentioned in order for them become a pancake. I hope you get the analogy now, it's not that complicated and to be honest, I think you're arguing just for the purpose of arguing right now.

So we know that the Bijuu are chakra, and the Juubi is simply all those Bijuu combined ie all that chakra combined, because logically a group of chakra is a group consisting of members that are chakra no? The Mazo was only ever mentioned in the context of Akatsuki sealing the Bijuu back. It was never said that the Mazo was a crucial part of the Juubi.

Naruto has the chakra of all the bijuu inside of him right now. Why doesn't he become a Juubi Jin? Exactly how do you estimate the amount of chakra needed for that? Why did both Obito, and especially Madara (considering that the Juubi has just been dismembered again, and the beasts obviously don't need, as you called it, 'rejuvenation'), have to re-seal all the tailed beasts back into the statue when they intended to become Juubi Jins? Obito had a very small portion of Hachibi's chakra, and even a smaller one of Kyuubi's. On top of that, why didn't Obito just seal all the bijuu inside of him as Akatsuki collected them? Why wait and bother with the Mazo?

The answer is the following: Yes, the Mazo is a crucial part of the Juubi. You can deny it all you want, I don't really care, because my initial intention of entering these debates was to possibly reconsider something about the manga I've known so far given that I'd receive some valid arguments/manga evidence, but, as expected, I've received nothing but a waste of time.

So while my explanation may not be directly supported by the manga, it is also not directly refuted. Therefore, the explanation is a possible scenario that isn't guarantied to have happened, but had a good chance of happening. From this it follows that while the explanation isn't perfect, but still an imperfect explanation is better than no explanation at all. So long as there is no contradiction, it can pass.

I don't think it can, for I've just pointed out a dozen of holes in your explanation. Sorry, but I don't accept it.

As for the Mazo at the time Obito absorbed it, it did in fact contain them. Not in full part, but it contained a portion of Kurama and Gyuki along with the complete Bijuus of others, so he indeed did have all the necessarry ingredients.

Just like Naruto contains portions of all the Bijuu now, so he has all the necessary ingredients... oops?

Simply not all of it. It's one thing to have the majority of something and only lack a small part and a completely different thing to have a small part of something and lack the majority of it.

And we should think that there is a borderline amount of the chakra you need to gather in order to become a Juubi Jin rather than just sealing it all into the Mazo which turns into Juubi after that, much like we've seen in the manga a few times, because... why, exactly?

 

[123fire]

Manga Facts: Hago sealed the juubi during the fight, later had his sons, Ashura grew up and inspired Hago with cooporation, which was what made him create 9 bijuu and name Ashura as the successor

Scans:

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, page 13: Hago says he sealed juubi

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, page 14: Hago says "later on, I had two sons"

Spoiler

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You must be registered for see images

^^Chapter 670, pages 17 and 18: Hago clearly explains it was after seeing Ashura's life and cooporation he created 9 bijuu and named him successor

Filler Facts: Hago never sealed the actual Juubi, already created 9 bijuu before Ashura was even born, or matured.



Manga Facts: In Chapter 670, page 13, Hago is telling Naruto the story of him sealing the juubi, he thinks he's fighting the juubi to repent for Kaguya's sins, never mentioning the juubi is his mother. Later, Black Zetsu tells Naruto and Sasuke Hago didn't know that was his mother. He seals his mom by sealing the juubi

Scans:

Spoiler

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^^Chapter 670, page 13: Hago mentions fighting juubi for Kaguya's sins and says the incarnation was trying to take back the chakra

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

^^Chapter 681, page 11: Black Zetsu explains it wasn't the incarnation but Kaguya, and states Hago knew nothing of it

Filler Facts: Hago knows the entire time he is fighting his mother, and seals her directly with Hamura, in the same way Naruto and Sasuke sealed her

Now ****boy what do you have to say?

Oh i have to say that you're wrong! He broke up the juubi inside him means the nine tailed beast inside him that he already had. Oh god these are just narration the anime showed us eevrything hagoromo meant . This doesn't mean he created them after knwoing about Ashura its just he scattreed them