Natsu Shazneel
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
All Hail Kishi!
All Hail Kishi!
Naruto Criticism: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
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1Told
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
no need to have inside track, you can see how much someone worked on something just by reading it, it's what good teachers do at school for ex and what they want you to learn.
Kishimoto is not a bad writer, he created Naruto, a good story and a nice universe but he's not a flawless genius neither a mind blowing author like Tolkien for ex
you cannot compare them and it's necessary to use your brain and self criticism a lot because this is what keep your mind sharp as a knife aka intelligent and sane.
no need to have inside track, you can see how much someone worked on something just by reading it, it's what good teachers do at school for ex and what they want you to learn.
Kishimoto is not a bad writer, he created Naruto, a good story and a nice universe but he's not a flawless genius neither a mind blowing author like Tolkien for ex
you cannot compare them and it's necessary to use your brain and self criticism a lot because this is what keep your mind sharp as a knife aka intelligent and sane.
Natsu Shazneel
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
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paratise
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Imo author fails to build relevancy if linage is not involved. You can just know a character not having much importance unless he/she is relevant to Sage's clan which makes things elitist and predictable.
Certain aspects of manga could not develop so he forced in 'parallels' to link those things somewhere. A good example is Naruto and Sasuke being reincarnations because they did not present a developed or relatable bond. Instead of actually developing that bond he have.chosen to force relationship; when it did not work he made them reincarnations of other brothers/friends.
Which again falls back into "work vs destiny". Naruto and Sasuke were simply destined to be friends and saviors, they did work but it was all naught compared to what destiny offered.
These just show things are not "developed" in actual sense of meaning. Adding parallels mean development to some while if you look from a bigger picture those parallels are excuses and shortcuts for plotholes and undeveloped aspects of fiction.
Imo author fails to build relevancy if linage is not involved. You can just know a character not having much importance unless he/she is relevant to Sage's clan which makes things elitist and predictable.
Certain aspects of manga could not develop so he forced in 'parallels' to link those things somewhere. A good example is Naruto and Sasuke being reincarnations because they did not present a developed or relatable bond. Instead of actually developing that bond he have.chosen to force relationship; when it did not work he made them reincarnations of other brothers/friends.
Which again falls back into "work vs destiny". Naruto and Sasuke were simply destined to be friends and saviors, they did work but it was all naught compared to what destiny offered.
These just show things are not "developed" in actual sense of meaning. Adding parallels mean development to some while if you look from a bigger picture those parallels are excuses and shortcuts for plotholes and undeveloped aspects of fiction.
Ansatsuken
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Im stayed Neutral this time.
But my stand is still the same as on your deleted Thread before
Im stayed Neutral this time.
But my stand is still the same as on your deleted Thread before
Shruikan
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
As I have said countless times that would mean you cant ever criticise any piece of art of work and the concept of critics would not exist.If I got to a restaurant and the food is shit you cant just tell me to show that I can cook it better as a basis for criticising it when I paid for it
As I have said countless times that would mean you cant ever criticise any piece of art of work and the concept of critics would not exist.If I got to a restaurant and the food is shit you cant just tell me to show that I can cook it better as a basis for criticising it when I paid for it
Ansatsuken
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Or the batter way, don't visit that same restaurant ever again. Save your mouth and brain energy. Plain and simple
We got many option in this world not just one.
Or the batter way, don't visit that same restaurant ever again. Save your mouth and brain energy. Plain and simple
We got many option in this world not just one.
shelke
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
That is not the only thing. There were so many inconsistencies in the plot that it became a thready mess in the end. Kishimoto himself admitted that he isn't resolving anything and decided to leave it up in the air. If this isn't bad writing then I don't know what is.
First, he created Madara as a background character, then he went for impersonation, then he brought him out front. Then he roided out that guy to such an extent that he himself didn't know what to do with him. This is when Kaguya and her redundant clan was brought in. All this is simply a guy running into one brick wall after another when he ran out of solutions. That is what happens when you keep running forward without any thought out plot mechanics.
Also, the bijuu ruined this manga. I didn't mind tapping into a bit of their power. But when they started completely taking over, that is when Kishimoto decided to up the power tier of all the characters to match them. No wonder this manga got more and more ridiculous in this regard as the story progressed. Had he put a curb on, or kept their powers in check, or not introduced them in this manner a lot of things would have been kept within the mythos of Ninjas.
What made the story good then? Naruto? Minato and Kushina's love that was out of this world - he loved her wig and she thought he was a gelding when they were young? Hinata's secret wetness inducing repeated chanting of the same words? Naruto's special reasoning that people who want to be Hokage are so cool? Obito throwing away his balls to fall to Naruto's level? Pein killing himself over Jiraiya's bad fan-fiction? Take your pick.
That is not the only thing. There were so many inconsistencies in the plot that it became a thready mess in the end. Kishimoto himself admitted that he isn't resolving anything and decided to leave it up in the air. If this isn't bad writing then I don't know what is.
First, he created Madara as a background character, then he went for impersonation, then he brought him out front. Then he roided out that guy to such an extent that he himself didn't know what to do with him. This is when Kaguya and her redundant clan was brought in. All this is simply a guy running into one brick wall after another when he ran out of solutions. That is what happens when you keep running forward without any thought out plot mechanics.
Also, the bijuu ruined this manga. I didn't mind tapping into a bit of their power. But when they started completely taking over, that is when Kishimoto decided to up the power tier of all the characters to match them. No wonder this manga got more and more ridiculous in this regard as the story progressed. Had he put a curb on, or kept their powers in check, or not introduced them in this manner a lot of things would have been kept within the mythos of Ninjas.
What made the story good then? Naruto? Minato and Kushina's love that was out of this world - he loved her wig and she thought he was a gelding when they were young? Hinata's secret wetness inducing repeated chanting of the same words? Naruto's special reasoning that people who want to be Hokage are so cool? Obito throwing away his balls to fall to Naruto's level? Pein killing himself over Jiraiya's bad fan-fiction? Take your pick.
Dockinabix
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Shipuuden sucked at nearly all levels
But should we sentence all the manga ? No, the first part was very good, it just started to smell rotten fish starting mid shipuuden.
So it’s a bad series ?
In a logical way yes. Man of sin, is showing it well in this analysis so I won’t go there.
But yes, the series have too many flaws to be considered as "good". At least, it’s a decent series, with the help of part one who avoid the manga of being an inter-generational stool.
But in a more personal way, it’s not that simple. It will all depends on people. The most demanding will say that it’s badly written, inconstant ,overated, poorly developed and technically weak.
The most lenient will say that for a first big serialization( when I mean big, it’s when the series goes over 15 vol), it’s could be worse.
(I wont talk about the ones who don’t have self respect, saying that the series in awesome in nearly every point… oops said it
)
It could be worse, that true, but the “first series” excuse it’s not an acceptable one.
When we wee first series like Rurouni kenshin, FMA, Slamdunk, or even Berserk and sun ken rock in an other register, it’s just a false excuse.
Naruto could have been awesome as awesome as these, but the author doesn't seems to have taken some time to deeper and his story and fix the flaws.
Naruto is a huge waste. The starting synopsis, the universe, everything had potential… and it finish like an ersatz of Dragon ball style series with all the good points ( interesting universe, intense fights) but also lot of flaws ( absurd rise in power, minimum scenario, trucks of inconsistencies)
For more than 8 years of reading that series, the hardest part was those last 3 years, where the series could give some very good stuff in the middle of poorness to pure “Hey I don’t know what I’m doing but I’m doing it.”
I’m glad I don’t buy series before I’ve read all of it, in case of naruto I would felt betrayed of such waste of potential and waste of money.
Shipuuden sucked at nearly all levels
But should we sentence all the manga ? No, the first part was very good, it just started to smell rotten fish starting mid shipuuden.
So it’s a bad series ?
In a logical way yes. Man of sin, is showing it well in this analysis so I won’t go there.
But yes, the series have too many flaws to be considered as "good". At least, it’s a decent series, with the help of part one who avoid the manga of being an inter-generational stool.
But in a more personal way, it’s not that simple. It will all depends on people. The most demanding will say that it’s badly written, inconstant ,overated, poorly developed and technically weak.
The most lenient will say that for a first big serialization( when I mean big, it’s when the series goes over 15 vol), it’s could be worse.
(I wont talk about the ones who don’t have self respect, saying that the series in awesome in nearly every point… oops said it
)It could be worse, that true, but the “first series” excuse it’s not an acceptable one.
When we wee first series like Rurouni kenshin, FMA, Slamdunk, or even Berserk and sun ken rock in an other register, it’s just a false excuse.
Naruto could have been awesome as awesome as these, but the author doesn't seems to have taken some time to deeper and his story and fix the flaws.
Naruto is a huge waste. The starting synopsis, the universe, everything had potential… and it finish like an ersatz of Dragon ball style series with all the good points ( interesting universe, intense fights) but also lot of flaws ( absurd rise in power, minimum scenario, trucks of inconsistencies)
For more than 8 years of reading that series, the hardest part was those last 3 years, where the series could give some very good stuff in the middle of poorness to pure “Hey I don’t know what I’m doing but I’m doing it.”
I’m glad I don’t buy series before I’ve read all of it, in case of naruto I would felt betrayed of such waste of potential and waste of money.
Last edited:
Slifer
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Hey German Hetler, you mean replacement? =DShipuuden sucked at nearly all levels
But should we sentence all the manga ? No, the first part was very good, it just started to smell rotten fish starting mid shipuuden.
So it’s a bad series ?
In a logical way yes. Man of sin, is showing it well in this analysis so I won’t go there.
But yes, the series have too many flaws to be considered as "good". At least, it’s a decent series, with the help of part one who avoid the manga of being an inter-generational stool.
But in a more personal way, it’s not that simple. It will all depends on people. The most demanding will say that it’s badly written, inconstant ,overated, poorly developed and technically weak.
The most lenient will say that for a first big serialization( when I mean big, it’s when the series goes over 15 vol), it’s could be worse.
(I wont talk about the ones who don’t have self respect, saying that the series in awesome in nearly every point… oops said it
It could be worse, that true, but the “first series” excuse it’s not an acceptable one.
When we wee first series like Rurouni kenshin, FMA, Slamdunk, or even Berserk and sun ken rock in an other register, it’s just a false excuse.
Naruto could have been awesome as awesome as these, but the author doesn't seems to have taken some time to deeper and his story and fix the flaws.
Naruto is a huge waste. The starting synopsis, the universe, everything had potential… and it finish like an ersatz of Dragon ball style series with all the good points ( interesting universe, intense fights) but also lot of flaws ( absurd rise in power, minimum scenario, trucks of inconsistencies)
For more than 8 years of reading that series, the hardest part was those last 3 years, where the series could give some very good stuff in the middle of poorness to pure “Hey I don’t know what I’m doing but I’m doing it.”
I’m glad I don’t buy series before I’ve read all of it, in case of naruto I would felt betrayed of such waste of potential and waste of money.
MAN OF SIN
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
He didn't write himself into a corner with Madara. As I said Sakura could have destroyed his eye.
He didn't write himself into a corner with Madara. As I said Sakura could have destroyed his eye.
Dockinabix
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
* Nah, replacing Dragon ball title of "The shonen who marked his generation and the next" is a very hard thing, the only one who actually can do the same is One Piece =D
When I say Ersatz, I mean a thing that have a lot in common with the original, look somehow like the original, but it's under the original.
PS: I'm not German (even though I learn two/three things in german when I was young)
* Nah, replacing Dragon ball title of "The shonen who marked his generation and the next" is a very hard thing, the only one who actually can do the same is One Piece =D
When I say Ersatz, I mean a thing that have a lot in common with the original, look somehow like the original, but it's under the original.
PS: I'm not German
(even though I learn two/three things in german when I was young)
MAN OF SIN
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Answer me this: Would you want to eat crappy food?
Answer me this: Would you want to eat crappy food?
Ansatsuken
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Because that I said just leave the crappy restaurant because of their crappy food when one time you eat there unless you really love that restaurant, you can critisize them, but what happen when they dont want to listen. In the end they will called 'Restaurant Impossible' to fix their lower customers problem, but that is their problem because not wany to listen to complain
And its batter you cook by yourself, save money, words, brain energy etc.
My post have help answer your question in not direct way because I love this way.
Because that I said just leave the crappy restaurant because of their crappy food when one time you eat there unless you really love that restaurant, you can critisize them, but what happen when they dont want to listen. In the end they will called 'Restaurant Impossible' to fix their lower customers problem, but that is their problem because not wany to listen to complain
And its batter you cook by yourself, save money, words, brain energy etc.
My post have help answer your question in not direct way because I love this way.
KCMNaruto
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
OP: You are so pathetic... it is not even funny. Your narrow mind can only hate and blame any weakness/poor execution on characters themselves which are nothing else then ink in shape which they got from the author who put life int to them lol.
I would solo most of your pathetic rant, but I don't have time for that, unless you insist.
blame Kishi, he confirmed that the author himself would much better handle The Ootsutsuki epic great might, but he failed.
OP: You are so pathetic... it is not even funny. Your narrow mind can only hate and blame any weakness/poor execution on characters themselves which are nothing else then ink in shape which they got from the author who put life int to them lol.
I would solo most of your pathetic rant, but I don't have time for that, unless you insist.
blame Kishi, he confirmed that the author himself would much better handle The Ootsutsuki epic great might, but he failed.
Dockinabix
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Hum I'm curious about your "solo" about that full argumented analysis, but let the OP choose the "fight" or not
Hum I'm curious about your "solo" about that full argumented analysis, but let the OP choose the "fight" or not
Natsu Shazneel
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MAN OF SIN
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
Lol u mad. I brought up Kishi several times in the post.
You must be registered for see images
Lol u mad. I brought up Kishi several times in the post.
You must be registered for see links
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Florio
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
I agree completely with every point. I actually think that the Ootsusuki are the worst addition to the story, it really did kill so many of the previous themes and characters, and actually makes the whole story (especially the war arc) less enjoyable while rereading.
I just wish Kishi took some extra time to buff out these plotholes, I'm sure he could have. And he should have made Kaguya more menacing and I agree that Sakura should have remained useless. Kishi cares too much about stupid fan service.
Either way I am done with this series... nothing intrigues me about it anymore. Before I was expecting so much but as soon as Madara got soloed by Black Zetsu, I have lost all hope in the series.
I agree completely with every point. I actually think that the Ootsusuki are the worst addition to the story, it really did kill so many of the previous themes and characters, and actually makes the whole story (especially the war arc) less enjoyable while rereading.
I just wish Kishi took some extra time to buff out these plotholes, I'm sure he could have. And he should have made Kaguya more menacing and I agree that Sakura should have remained useless. Kishi cares too much about stupid fan service.
Either way I am done with this series... nothing intrigues me about it anymore. Before I was expecting so much but as soon as Madara got soloed by Black Zetsu, I have lost all hope in the series.
Lia
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Re: Naruto Criticism Chapter 2: The Ootsusuki Clan Ruined This Story
So.. the other thread was deleted? Too bad that I didn't save my post, but I will sum it up. Cause I want to open the eyes of these blind Kishi-fanboys, which are defending every plothole he ever created.
Kaguya is the most pathetic character I've ever seen in an anime/manga/videogame or book story.. and it isn't possible to surpass this sh*t. She ruined 15 years of the manga by herself, Hagoromo, Hamura and the Databook-story not even mentioned. She wasn't even needed in the story. Hagoromo should've been a human who ate the fruit of the god-tree to bring peace. But no, Kishi f***ed up and made a fool of himself. Yeah.. Kishi just needed something to turn "Mugen Tsukuyomi" into a bad thing. Otherwise Madara definitely were the savior of the world and Naruto/Team 7 would've been the 'evil guys'.
But that's the challenge if you bring moral-aspects into a work like this. It could've been interesting if a lot of people would like to live that fake dreamworld. Seriously, look at Nagato. In a world full of sorrow, destruction and death.. nearly everyone would end like him and yearn for peace.
The next point is that BS Zetsu-story. Even the biggest Kishi-fanboy has to admit that this was not foreshadowed but a stupid spontaneous idea to give Kaguya some sort of background and turn Mugen Tsukuyomi into a bad thing. Kishi just took the easy way out of his selfmade misery. Zetsu were Madaras creation and that isn't deniable.
Remember when it was stated that Zetsu were male because of Hashiramas DNA within them? Remember when they called themselves "clone" after Sasuke killed "the original"? Remember when Obito became very powerful due to his Zetsu armor ("Uchiha+Senju=Powerful"-thing) to kill all the Kiri-Nins after Rins suicide? Remember when the Zetsus could use mokuton and turned into a tree after Naruto hit them with Bijuu chakra? Remember when Madaras wood dragon hugged Narutos Kurama-avatar? There were also trees growing out of the dragon's wood-body because mokuton reacts to Bijuu chakra.
I won't accept that Kishi rewrites his complete story about 20 chapters before the end. It's nothing more than miserable storytelling.
Then at the end, there is Hagoromo left. He is the second enormous failure in the whole Naruto story.
Remember when he was a big mystery? This character was one of the reasons why I started to read and watch Naruto. I thought he would be a powerful man with a great and uniqe personality.. but what did we get? An idiotic senile who can only float and make dumb grimaces. He was like "Yes I saw that Sasuke-thing coming, but I still gave Sasuke all the power in the world. I'm already dead so it's not my business.. good luck Team 7" and then disappeared like Homer Simpson in a hedge, hoping no one would notice.
Apart from this, his lifestory makes no sense too.
If he sealed Kaguya/Juubi together with Hamura, using that Rikudou-Chibaku-Tensei.. then tell me, when did he became a Jinchuuriki of the ten tails? We saw that this jutsu seperates the ten tails body from the chakra and seals it into a giant rock, known as "the moon". So Hagoromo could seal only the Juubi chakra into his body.. like Sasuke did with his susanoo.
But that is wrong, as Kishi said by himself through Kurama after Obito was defeated.
It was said that Obito would survive the extraction of the beasts like Hagoromo did after creating the 9 Bijuu.. thanks to the body of the Juubi, known as "Gedo Mazo". But tell me.. how could that thing be in Hagoboys body if it was sealed in the moon from the beginning? hm? no idea? Yeah, because Kishimoto really f***ed up again!
So that means, Lord Madara and even a crybaby like Obito were much more a Jinchuuriki of the Juubi, than Hagoromo ever was. And because of that, they are both more powerfull than Hagoromo himself. And now please explain logically to me how Hagoboy should be above a two-rinnegan Rikudou-Madara
Juubi also should have stayed as "the god tree". Just the nature itself which was pissed about the human Hagoromo who took the fruit and got power to bring peace to the world. So Juubi would've been the planet/nature itself, reincarnated into a monster to only get back what belongs to itself.
Ninshuu was a great idea as the "true meaning" of chakra, so he would stay very different to Madara/Indra who used it as a power source to make things happen.
Hamura, Toneri and the other Ootsutsuki-midget are ridiculous too. Aliens weren't needed in the story and are pure sh*t. Naruto is not DBZ, dear Kishimoto. The majority of Naruto-Fans loved this series cause it was NOT like DBZ. Since Juubi came back to life, the story crumbled into tiny pieces. But when Kaguya joined, it totally collapsed.
So.. the other thread was deleted? Too bad that I didn't save my post, but I will sum it up. Cause I want to open the eyes of these blind Kishi-fanboys, which are defending every plothole he ever created.
Kaguya is the most pathetic character I've ever seen in an anime/manga/videogame or book story.. and it isn't possible to surpass this sh*t. She ruined 15 years of the manga by herself, Hagoromo, Hamura and the Databook-story not even mentioned. She wasn't even needed in the story. Hagoromo should've been a human who ate the fruit of the god-tree to bring peace. But no, Kishi f***ed up and made a fool of himself. Yeah.. Kishi just needed something to turn "Mugen Tsukuyomi" into a bad thing. Otherwise Madara definitely were the savior of the world and Naruto/Team 7 would've been the 'evil guys'.
But that's the challenge if you bring moral-aspects into a work like this. It could've been interesting if a lot of people would like to live that fake dreamworld. Seriously, look at Nagato. In a world full of sorrow, destruction and death.. nearly everyone would end like him and yearn for peace.
The next point is that BS Zetsu-story. Even the biggest Kishi-fanboy has to admit that this was not foreshadowed but a stupid spontaneous idea to give Kaguya some sort of background and turn Mugen Tsukuyomi into a bad thing. Kishi just took the easy way out of his selfmade misery. Zetsu were Madaras creation and that isn't deniable.
Remember when it was stated that Zetsu were male because of Hashiramas DNA within them? Remember when they called themselves "clone" after Sasuke killed "the original"? Remember when Obito became very powerful due to his Zetsu armor ("Uchiha+Senju=Powerful"-thing) to kill all the Kiri-Nins after Rins suicide? Remember when the Zetsus could use mokuton and turned into a tree after Naruto hit them with Bijuu chakra? Remember when Madaras wood dragon hugged Narutos Kurama-avatar? There were also trees growing out of the dragon's wood-body because mokuton reacts to Bijuu chakra.
I won't accept that Kishi rewrites his complete story about 20 chapters before the end. It's nothing more than miserable storytelling.
Then at the end, there is Hagoromo left. He is the second enormous failure in the whole Naruto story.
Remember when he was a big mystery? This character was one of the reasons why I started to read and watch Naruto. I thought he would be a powerful man with a great and uniqe personality.. but what did we get? An idiotic senile who can only float and make dumb grimaces. He was like "Yes I saw that Sasuke-thing coming, but I still gave Sasuke all the power in the world. I'm already dead so it's not my business.. good luck Team 7" and then disappeared like Homer Simpson in a hedge, hoping no one would notice.
Apart from this, his lifestory makes no sense too.
If he sealed Kaguya/Juubi together with Hamura, using that Rikudou-Chibaku-Tensei.. then tell me, when did he became a Jinchuuriki of the ten tails? We saw that this jutsu seperates the ten tails body from the chakra and seals it into a giant rock, known as "the moon". So Hagoromo could seal only the Juubi chakra into his body.. like Sasuke did with his susanoo.
But that is wrong, as Kishi said by himself through Kurama after Obito was defeated.
It was said that Obito would survive the extraction of the beasts like Hagoromo did after creating the 9 Bijuu.. thanks to the body of the Juubi, known as "Gedo Mazo". But tell me.. how could that thing be in Hagoboys body if it was sealed in the moon from the beginning? hm? no idea? Yeah, because Kishimoto really f***ed up again!
So that means, Lord Madara and even a crybaby like Obito were much more a Jinchuuriki of the Juubi, than Hagoromo ever was. And because of that, they are both more powerfull than Hagoromo himself. And now please explain logically to me how Hagoboy should be above a two-rinnegan Rikudou-Madara
Juubi also should have stayed as "the god tree". Just the nature itself which was pissed about the human Hagoromo who took the fruit and got power to bring peace to the world. So Juubi would've been the planet/nature itself, reincarnated into a monster to only get back what belongs to itself.
Ninshuu was a great idea as the "true meaning" of chakra, so he would stay very different to Madara/Indra who used it as a power source to make things happen.
Hamura, Toneri and the other Ootsutsuki-midget are ridiculous too. Aliens weren't needed in the story and are pure sh*t. Naruto is not DBZ, dear Kishimoto. The majority of Naruto-Fans loved this series cause it was NOT like DBZ. Since Juubi came back to life, the story crumbled into tiny pieces. But when Kaguya joined, it totally collapsed.
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