[Discussion] Naruto... abit of a mess?
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The White Fang of Konoha
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I feel the time rush/rush in general is being pushed to emphasize the point that Madara/Tobi does not have this part figured out. Before he had a perfect plan, and everyone was a pawn. Now he is getting surprised with Naruto, two tail beasts not recovered, and Kabuto. In retrospect to the plot, the world made sense because of the village system and no conflict, which was primarily because Madara had his hands on the most powerful 'evil' ninja working for him. Now that the world does not have the secret hand influencing it, the lines of time, reality, and action and blurring into Chaos.
Throughout the series you had two of the Sanin traveling, ensuring a degree of stability. The leaf had the foundation, arguably one of the strongest military forces, a time of peace/treaty with the outher five great villages, an eventual close alliance with the Sand, and so much more protecting the Leaf/influencing it. Now the safety nets are gone and the world from the Leafs and Naruto's perspective is going into chaos. It then makes sense for some items to seem rushed because this is how they unfold, no one but Madara/Tobi knew of the Zetsu army, the 1st's DNA, or the Moon Eye plan. So as they would be abrupt if the Naruto-verse were real, so it would seem abrupt to us.
Throughout the series you had two of the Sanin traveling, ensuring a degree of stability. The leaf had the foundation, arguably one of the strongest military forces, a time of peace/treaty with the outher five great villages, an eventual close alliance with the Sand, and so much more protecting the Leaf/influencing it. Now the safety nets are gone and the world from the Leafs and Naruto's perspective is going into chaos. It then makes sense for some items to seem rushed because this is how they unfold, no one but Madara/Tobi knew of the Zetsu army, the 1st's DNA, or the Moon Eye plan. So as they would be abrupt if the Naruto-verse were real, so it would seem abrupt to us.
uzumakiclanrules
Member
I wouldnt really call it a mess, I rather think the manga is being hastened/rushed...
There are rumors(from some interview) of Kishi planning to start some gangster manga...hes planning to give Naruto the boot soon...which I do not think is very wise considering the cash cow that its been...no matter how good the gangster manga is, it'll take time for readers to warm up to it and it'll rake MUCH less cash compared to Naruto...
Anyways, I really DESPISE Kishi ending Naruto so "pre-maturely"...I would have preferred more development of Naruto's character and another major time skip showing a glimpse of Naruto as the new Hokage and another time skip showing future Uzumakis(possible clan revival)...yeah, I want this even if it sounds cliched and possibly cheesy...
There are rumors(from some interview) of Kishi planning to start some gangster manga...hes planning to give Naruto the boot soon...which I do not think is very wise considering the cash cow that its been...no matter how good the gangster manga is, it'll take time for readers to warm up to it and it'll rake MUCH less cash compared to Naruto...
Anyways, I really DESPISE Kishi ending Naruto so "pre-maturely"...I would have preferred more development of Naruto's character and another major time skip showing a glimpse of Naruto as the new Hokage and another time skip showing future Uzumakis(possible clan revival)...yeah, I want this even if it sounds cliched and possibly cheesy...
veggetta13
Active member
Pl;otholes..??
Ever since Madara stop being stupid Tobi he's been screamoing to four winds his plans of making a ninja, shinobi domination the world has never seen before.
We already knew Zetsu is able to create clones of whomever he touches.
Everyone had been wondering since the start of the series who the heck were Naruto's parents!!!
Some people did wondered what exactly is what happened in the fight between Hashirama and mADARA..NOW, WE KNOW.
I personally always plotted why Kabuto followed so faithfully and closely Orochimaru.. Now, we know he's just like him, a Power-thirsty bastard.
And if you are already feeling ached because of the speed of the manga get ready to know who is inside the coffin, who is Zetsu and what the hell Naruto got from Itachi...
If you are feeling troubled it's because you guys never saw DRAGON BALL.. man, it goes around any corner of that story and BAACK?!! ISN'T TIT? AND WELL, IT IS A LEGEND, CORRECT IN MANGA AND ANIME?
Ever since Madara stop being stupid Tobi he's been screamoing to four winds his plans of making a ninja, shinobi domination the world has never seen before.
We already knew Zetsu is able to create clones of whomever he touches.
Everyone had been wondering since the start of the series who the heck were Naruto's parents!!!
Some people did wondered what exactly is what happened in the fight between Hashirama and mADARA..NOW, WE KNOW.
I personally always plotted why Kabuto followed so faithfully and closely Orochimaru.. Now, we know he's just like him, a Power-thirsty bastard.
And if you are already feeling ached because of the speed of the manga get ready to know who is inside the coffin, who is Zetsu and what the hell Naruto got from Itachi...
If you are feeling troubled it's because you guys never saw DRAGON BALL.. man, it goes around any corner of that story and BAACK?!! ISN'T TIT? AND WELL, IT IS A LEGEND, CORRECT IN MANGA AND ANIME?
X Ventus X
Member
apple pie of doom
Active member
The only thing that is messed up is that Sasuke's head still remains on his shoulders.
For the rest its only getting more exciting to me, more of Madara.
For the rest its only getting more exciting to me, more of Madara.
As much as i love anime, i believe anyone who takes its plot too seriously is nitpicking or just plain naive. Just name any anime and i'll give you a complete and concise critique- plot holes, and all. BTW A-POD are you ever serious?
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I'm really, really sorry... I don't really understand what you're trying to say! Don't take offence but could you try again? Yes I have read dragonball all the way through... what's your point about that? o.o
Sorry I really would like to know what it is you mean... I think I see a good point in there!
I wouldn't like that to be true... Fair enough it has to end one day... but I believe a project should be seen with full intent and effort right to the end!
You see... I may have misunderstood you, but this is exactly the kind of talk I wanted to avoid... I made this thread to discuss the manga... not for anyone to be ridiculed or called "naive" for taking manga/anime "seriously"! I have my reasons for taking an in-depth look at manga (and stories in general)... and I would very much like to get people's opinions on the matter... Comments like this may only serve to put people off...As much as i love anime, i believe anyone who takes its plot too seriously is nitpicking or just plain naive. Just name any anime and i'll give you a complete and concise critique- plot holes, and all. BTW A-POD are you ever serious?
If you don't have a decent opinion to elaborate, that doesn't involve criticism of US having a particular outlook... I'll leave it at that!
Uchiha Riyo
Active member
Legendary Sannin
Member
Doesn't feel rushed to me... Now it's getting good! Maybe'll soon know who was in the last coffin, and why Madara was forced to ally with Kabuto. Can't wait!
gaaras best sand grain
Member
I suggest we just sit back and let the man do his work, the manga is no where near over so stop having your doubts. It will all make sence in the near future, besides this is how Kishis always done it he gets us wondering, interested and anxious all to be uttlerly astonsihed. So hush up with your ranting etc, give him a break.
veggetta13
Active member
Well, I remember Dragonball as an anime out of the ordinary. Took us front and back through all the characters and their families,
We were able to even follow Goku into heaven and hell, saw most of the characters dying and reviving or mutating like Pikolo.
I quoted Dragonball cause if needed or felt by Kishi, he's got more than enough cloth where to cut from to further develope the story.
His main characters have solid personalities, however one of the author's tricks to keep us trapped is holding character background, abilities, and origin.
Relating these with the thread.. the guy is saying the plot is a mess but I truly don't think so. Kishi hasn't cheated on himself making his characters weak by betraying them..
E'g:
Sasuke suddenly becoming a gardener or Naruto being afraid, or Tsunade taking a holiday off to going into boze again ....
The mess is obvious to us, younger generations that the ones who experienced reading Dragonball and its magnitude, now we come to step to Naruto and start questioning the length and fantasy of the plot.
To end, each piece of art settles it's own limits..(whether these are metaphysical or physical)
Naruto is not done by a physics scientist
Maybe is just done by a guy with lots of nostalgy into the warrior path, love for his country and culture, and faith in the human spirit and its will to break its limitations.
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Clearly you two don't know what a disclaimer is... and no... Kishi does not usually flit around so much... I am not complaining or even ranting about the manga... just analysing the shift in styles... Learn to read through what people say properly so you don't assume the wrong ideas... or can't you tell the difference between conversation and an unfounded rant?
Also I am not saying the story is hard to follow... It is simply told in a chaotic way atm... some have pointed out that it is intentional... which I find interesting and am anxious to see if this turns out true... I am not just merely interested in a plot... but how that plot is told... and what styles of story telling are used!
Yeah I get what your saying about the character's info being kept on hold... mystery is indeed a key ingredient in holding an audience...
The issue I bring forth is not one of character development.. (I'll save that for Kubo)... and not even really the speed of which the story flows... It's infact his break away from a generally linear story into a more... let's say... fractal one...
DB never really had any backwards character development... it was always very current... I can't really remember any major flashbacks concerning characters and their histories... Hmm I think I'll use a couple of evenings to read through that series again actually!
DB had it's charms... but at the same time you could see where editors had forced things to alter...
I am wondering if perhaps there is interference from the editorial department concerning Naruto... Seems like someone pushed for more info to be splashed at us and/or more char' flittering! Cos as someone said before... It does feel abit forced...
Some people are unaware how much influence and editor can have! +_+ It's actually not all about Kishi!
ya. i also think maybe Kishi should make 5-10 chapters of Sakuras new training, some flashbacks of other taems *add some major plots non cares about*, pfff who wants to see Madara vs Naruto, and other epicness about to happend U_U ..
veggetta13
Active member
Sweet, ahven't had to make myself think into a passion such as cartoons in a LOOnng time.
Correct, Dragonball never had much of a spiral kond of narration throughout it's timeline, it remained fractal.
Well, putting it simple, Ithink that is one of the charms brought by Kishi.
Naruto remains a work, available to kids so as grown-ups, however it does make use of time leaps familiar to both adult anime and manga.
Into these I do assure it's one of Asia and southeast asia's literature signatures being shown in works such as the Veda's(India's hindu sacred books) and their children, the Mahabaratta and Ramayana.
Characters fight, and the narrator might go back into their childhoods, even jump forward into I don't know, the time of their marriage after the fight. Why?
Well, stories here are told in popular shows such as theater, puppet shows, human puppet shows and other, and the trick of the game is making a known story to the audience if not surprising, interesting, no important of following a story line.
I enjoy these about Kishi, he's showing his knowledge of Japanese story telling, and putting it into modern context, that is Manga!@!!!!
Go Kishi, go insane and flip the story as many times as you will!!!
Whiteknight
Active member
I do agree with the sentiment: The manga has been feeling pretty rushed and hurried lately. Of course, now that I think about it, a lot of story elements have felt kind of rushed in the past. Here are three examples:
1) We never heard anything about "sage mode" before Jiraya used it against Pain. Shortly thereafter, Naruto went off to learn the technique, mastered it more than anybody else, and used it to fight Pain. We haven't heard much about it since then.
2) We hadn't heard too much about elemental chakra for much of the beginning of the manga. Naruto starts training to learn wind style and combine it with Rasengan. They tell Naruto that it's almost impossible to master more than one or two types of nature chakra, and then we meet an enemy (Kakuzu) who has mastered all of them by stealing hearts. After Naruto "mastered" rasenshuuriken, we haven't heard anything else about most nature chakras since.
3) We don't hear a word about Izanagi until Danzo uses it against Sasuke. Now it's the most important, powerful technique ever, and is central to the manga.
So these are three things that we never ever hear about, they become the most important things ever, at least for a little while.
Here are some other changes that I think are pretty abrupt:
1) Hashirama goes from being an obscure historical figure to being the most important person in the entire world. In Part 1, Orochimaru brought Hashirama to life using Edo Tensei, but didn't use his wood release powers for any of the cool techniques that Madara is using them for. If kabuto/orochimaru knows about zetsu and izanagi from Danzo, why wouldn't Orochimaru try to use Hashirama's powers for those things instead?
2) Suddenly we learn that Madara "gave" the rinnegan to Nagato. If Madara had the rinnegan, why didn't he keep it and use it for himself? Was it really easier to give them to Nagato, and then spend years manipulating Nagato to create akatsuki and follow Madara's plans? It seems to me like this was a pretty risky long-term plan for somebody like Madara to follow. With the rinnegan back in his possession, suddenly Madara acts like he is powerful enough to capture Naruto by himself. If Madara kept the rinnegan from the beginning, he would have always had that much power and could have captured the tailed beasts all by himself.
3) We now learn that Zetsu is like the secret part of Madara's plan. Without Zetsu, there isn't any conceivable way that he can fight an army of 80,000 ninjas. But, we still see him sending Zetsu on errands to record fights and devour the bodies of fallen akatsuki. Doesn't it seem a little weird that the most important part of the team wouldn't be kept somewhere more safe? This is especially true considering how many problems Madara's plans have had in the past (Naruto killing akatsuki members, most akatsuki getting killed, Nagato and konan defecting, etc).
All of these things seem pretty sudden to me. Also, a few more things that I don't understand:
1) Why wouldn't madara go with Kabuto to capture the 9tails? There are two jinchuuriki on that island, including a few other powerful ninjas and reinforcements on the way. Shouldn't two powerful ninjas go to collect them?
2) How did Kisame know that his life was in danger, and that he should use a Zetsu clone? Kisame was about to chop the legs off Killer Bee and capture him, why wouldn't he just complete the mission right there? Kisame could easily have been able to defeat the Raikage after collecting all the chakra from Killer Bee. Kisame hiding out and going to the island was a stupid plan that got a very powerful akatsuki member killed. Kisame's ability to absorb and redistribute chakra might have been very valuable in creating more zetsu.
Also, this is another case of a sudden revelation that has turned out to become super-important. We hadn't heard about Zetsu creating super-identical clones before that incident, it seems like it was only added later to hurry the story along.
Things do feel like they are moving very quickly, and like Kishi is making changes and retcons to try and hurry things along. I hope that he isn't trying to bring the series to a sudden end or anything.
1) We never heard anything about "sage mode" before Jiraya used it against Pain. Shortly thereafter, Naruto went off to learn the technique, mastered it more than anybody else, and used it to fight Pain. We haven't heard much about it since then.
2) We hadn't heard too much about elemental chakra for much of the beginning of the manga. Naruto starts training to learn wind style and combine it with Rasengan. They tell Naruto that it's almost impossible to master more than one or two types of nature chakra, and then we meet an enemy (Kakuzu) who has mastered all of them by stealing hearts. After Naruto "mastered" rasenshuuriken, we haven't heard anything else about most nature chakras since.
3) We don't hear a word about Izanagi until Danzo uses it against Sasuke. Now it's the most important, powerful technique ever, and is central to the manga.
So these are three things that we never ever hear about, they become the most important things ever, at least for a little while.
Here are some other changes that I think are pretty abrupt:
1) Hashirama goes from being an obscure historical figure to being the most important person in the entire world. In Part 1, Orochimaru brought Hashirama to life using Edo Tensei, but didn't use his wood release powers for any of the cool techniques that Madara is using them for. If kabuto/orochimaru knows about zetsu and izanagi from Danzo, why wouldn't Orochimaru try to use Hashirama's powers for those things instead?
2) Suddenly we learn that Madara "gave" the rinnegan to Nagato. If Madara had the rinnegan, why didn't he keep it and use it for himself? Was it really easier to give them to Nagato, and then spend years manipulating Nagato to create akatsuki and follow Madara's plans? It seems to me like this was a pretty risky long-term plan for somebody like Madara to follow. With the rinnegan back in his possession, suddenly Madara acts like he is powerful enough to capture Naruto by himself. If Madara kept the rinnegan from the beginning, he would have always had that much power and could have captured the tailed beasts all by himself.
3) We now learn that Zetsu is like the secret part of Madara's plan. Without Zetsu, there isn't any conceivable way that he can fight an army of 80,000 ninjas. But, we still see him sending Zetsu on errands to record fights and devour the bodies of fallen akatsuki. Doesn't it seem a little weird that the most important part of the team wouldn't be kept somewhere more safe? This is especially true considering how many problems Madara's plans have had in the past (Naruto killing akatsuki members, most akatsuki getting killed, Nagato and konan defecting, etc).
All of these things seem pretty sudden to me. Also, a few more things that I don't understand:
1) Why wouldn't madara go with Kabuto to capture the 9tails? There are two jinchuuriki on that island, including a few other powerful ninjas and reinforcements on the way. Shouldn't two powerful ninjas go to collect them?
2) How did Kisame know that his life was in danger, and that he should use a Zetsu clone? Kisame was about to chop the legs off Killer Bee and capture him, why wouldn't he just complete the mission right there? Kisame could easily have been able to defeat the Raikage after collecting all the chakra from Killer Bee. Kisame hiding out and going to the island was a stupid plan that got a very powerful akatsuki member killed. Kisame's ability to absorb and redistribute chakra might have been very valuable in creating more zetsu.
Also, this is another case of a sudden revelation that has turned out to become super-important. We hadn't heard about Zetsu creating super-identical clones before that incident, it seems like it was only added later to hurry the story along.
Things do feel like they are moving very quickly, and like Kishi is making changes and retcons to try and hurry things along. I hope that he isn't trying to bring the series to a sudden end or anything.
yeah I noticed the fast pace lately, but I got used to it so it doesn't bother me that much.. I find it kinda funny that our first reaction is to find it a bit weird when the story goes a bit faster, we got too used to slow story-telling and i don't think Kishi is hurrying up the manga or anything, but there is a war going on so the whole atmosphere of the story changed I guess...
and i don't think Kishi is hurrying up the manga or anything, but there is a war going on so the whole atmosphere of the story changed I guess...
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