[VS] Nagato vs. Gokage

[Lord Tywin]

Thats whats they are arguing about. Preta only absorbs chakra not impacts so he would simply turn a v2 lariat into a base lariat.

It doesn't make sense. Only after Nagano was hit with the lariat we see him absorb B's chakra. He's superior to Kisame in durability based on this alone, let alone with Asura path.

 

[Lord Tywin]

He healed his legs he just didn't know how to walk.

Kisame survived a similar hit and healed, and he doesn't have the addition of the added durability from Asura and the healing from Naraka.

Lmao what you mean he didn't know how to walk.

 

[Apêx1]

Thats whats they are arguing about. Preta only absorbs chakra not impacts so he would simply turn a v2 lariat into a base lariat.

Ah didn't even realise. If Preta Path didn't negate impact than he would've been instantly torn through by the torque of this massive rasengan the moment he touched it;

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Stood in Goemon (splashing next to his foot) and took no damage despite no Preta barrier having been put up yet.

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Seems to me like any attack implementing chakra in any kind of way is void in its entirety against Preta. How it does it isn't relevant.

 

[KidGamer65]

Ah didn't even realise. If Preta Path didn't negate impact than he would've been instantly torn through by the torque of this massive rasengan the moment he touched it;

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Stood in Goemon (splashing next to his foot) and took no damage despite no Preta barrier having been put up yet.

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Seems to me like any attack implementing chakra in any kind of way is void in its entirety against Preta. How it does it isn't relevant.

It negated the impact because those are chakra based attacks. Ay's strike is not a chakra based attack. Preta Path didn't negate the impact from B's attack otherwise Nagato wouldn't have been sent flying backwards in the first place. So we know for a fact that the jutsu hit him unlike with the Rasengan, where it "hit" him but he didn't budge.

Bruh

it doesn't HAVE to be interrogating someone at that exact moment for it not to be seen

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so if he summons it at the start of a match and it can't be seen, its there for healing him when he himself cant instigate the healing. Its one creature so don't say he has to re-summon it for healing.

Except this is not how Nagato was shown to use the technique. We were literally directly shown how the jutsu operates. I will never understand why you love to twist what the Manga has blatantly shown instead of simply going with what was directly shown. Shit is annoying as hell. This is what was shown in the Manga:

1. Nagato calls it.
2. It's visible.
3. Nagato steps into it.
4. Comes out.
5. He's fixed.

Not this nonsense about Nagato being able to have it on standby. It being a summon is irrelevant when it's not a summon in the traditional sense.

 

[Zexion~]

It negated the impact because those are chakra based attacks. Ay's strike is not a chakra based attack. Preta Path didn't negate the impact from B's attack otherwise Nagato wouldn't have been sent flying backwards in the first place. So we know for a fact that the jutsu hit him unlike with the Rasengan, where it "hit" him but he didn't budge.



Except this is not how Nagato was shown to use the technique. We were literally directly shown how the jutsu operates. I will never understand why you love to twist what the Manga has blatantly shown instead of simply going with what was directly shown. Shit is annoying as hell. This is what was shown in the Manga:

1. Nagato calls it.
2. It's visible.
3. Nagato steps into it.
4. Comes out.
5. He's fixed.

Not this nonsense about Nagato being able to have it on standby. It being a summon is irrelevant when it's not a summon in the traditional sense.

Lmfaoooo because he didn't use it like this it all of a sudden can't be done when logic dictates otherwise? Its not twisting the manga its using the manga to make situations that logically can happen. This is something you constantly criticizing as dumb and annoying but by no means am I wrong.

-Nagato has shown to summon it without it being seen
-Nagato has shown to have it on standby without it being seen
-Nagato has shown that it can heal
-Nagato has shown it visible when it heals

ALL IN THE MANGA

Combine all of these together and it most certainly is feasible whether it was directly shown in the manga or not.

 

[Apêx1]

It negated the impact because those are chakra based attacks. Ay's strike is not a chakra based attack. Preta Path didn't negate the impact from B's attack otherwise Nagato wouldn't have been sent flying backwards in the first place. So we know for a fact that the jutsu hit him unlike with the Rasengan, where it "hit" him but he didn't budge.

Perhaps it doesn't negate impact, but rather prevents damage to the user's body. I have no explanation for this but that's clearly what's happening in both the Rasengan scan and the V2 Bee scan. There are clear impact marks on Preta's hands and face with the Rasengan yet he took 0 damage. Same with Nagato getting hit by V2 Bee. There were absolutely no Edo papers flying around from an attack that would bust his entire body despite the clear impact marks. Preta being able to do this doesn't need a genuine explanation/clarification when its done it twice.

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Nagato didn't fly back from Bee's lariat despite having made the 'powerful' initial impact, while Kisame was sent flying.

 

[Zexion~]

Lmao what you mean he didn't know how to walk.

He hadn't walked in like 15 years....

 

[KidGamer65]

Lmfaoooo because he didn't use it like this it all of a sudden can't be done when logic dictates otherwise? Its not twisting the manga its using the manga to make situations that logically can happen. This is something you constantly criticizing as dumb and annoying but by no means am I wrong.

-Nagato has shown to summon it without it being seen
-Nagato has shown to have it on standby without it being seen
-Nagato has shown that it can heal
-Nagato has shown it visible when it heals

ALL IN THE MANGA

Combine all of these together and it most certainly is feasible whether it was directly shown in the manga or not.

We were explicitly shown the process. The process is not how you describe it. There is nothing more to discuss here so do me a favor and stop. Your "logical deductions" are irrelevant in the face of what the Manga has actually shown.

Perhaps it doesn't negate impact, but rather prevents damage to the user's body. I have no explanation for this but that's clearly what's happening in both the Rasengan scan and the V2 Bee scan. There are clear impact marks on Preta's hands and face with the Rasengan yet he took 0 damage. Same with Nagato getting hit by V2 Bee. There were absolutely no Edo papers flying around from an attack that would bust his entire body despite the clear impact marks. Preta being able to do this doesn't need a genuine explanation/clarification when its done it twice.

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Nagato didn't fly back from Bee's lariat despite having made the 'powerful' initial impact, while Kisame was sent flying.

There's no reason why it'd prevent damage to user's body. Nagato got hit by the Lariat and then absorbed B's chakra. Not sure why you are still comparing it to the Rasengan when the Rasengan was actually negated altogether. Rasengan is a chakra based attack. The power from B's lariat comes from the chakra wrapped around his body. At best you'll get away with arguing that absorbing V2's chakra made the Lariat too weak to injure him.

V2 Ay's punch is not a punch that is chakra based thus the example clearly doesn't hold. The power from his punch doesn't come from his Raiton Armor so absorbing said chakra doesn't change the fact that he gets a giant hole punched through his chest.

And even if you guys were right about this Ay can simply disable his armor when he's about to hit Nagato thus Nagato dies regardless. But you aren't right so this is a step that doesn't need to be taken.

 

[Lord Tywin]

He hadn't walked in like 15 years....

How does that stop Kabuto from controlling him? Kabuto stated that he wasn't mobile enough

 

[Lord Tywin]

We were explicitly shown the process. The process is not how you describe it. There is nothing more to discuss here so do me a favor and stop. Your "logical deductions" are irrelevant in the face of what the Manga has actually shown.



There's no reason why it'd prevent damage to user's body. Nagato got hit by the Lariat and then absorbed B's chakra. Not sure why you are still comparing it to the Rasengan when the Rasengan was actually negated altogether. Rasengan is a chakra based attack. The power from B's lariat comes from the chakra wrapped around his body. At best you'll get away with arguing that absorbing V2's chakra made the Lariat too weak to injure him.

V2 Ay's punch is not a punch that is chakra based thus the example clearly doesn't hold. The power from his punch doesn't come from his Raiton Armor so absorbing said chakra doesn't change the fact that he gets a giant hole punched through his chest.

And even if you guys were right about this Ay can simply disable his armor when he's about to hit Nagato thus Nagato dies regardless. But you aren't right so this is a step that doesn't need to be taken.

So when manga ever implied B being a CES user? His power from the lariat comes from his acceleration. F=MA. Both shrouds let the user increase their speed, although Ay to a greater degree.

 

[Dizzldot]

So when manga ever implied B being a CES user? His power from the lariat comes from his acceleration. F=MA. Both shrouds let the user increase their speed, although Ay to a greater degree.

There must be another variable besides what we have in our world because Bee in base overpowered a serious raikage and the raikage is taller and weighs more than Bee and was probably/deffinitely moving faster since he had his V2 cloak on. Chakra must play a factor in the power because Nintaijutsu uses chakra to enhance the lariat so Bee mustve put more chakra into his attack to overcome Ay's speed and size advantages

 

[RedRobin]

It doesn't make sense. Only after Nagano was hit with the lariat we see him absorb B's chakra. He's superior to Kisame in durability based on this alone, let alone with Asura path.

It was absorbed mid-hit so the full lariat in V2 was not carried out.

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all happens in one quick succession.

 

[KidGamer65]

So when manga ever implied B being a CES user? His power from the lariat comes from his acceleration. F=MA. Both shrouds let the user increase their speed, although Ay to a greater degree.

No, most of it comes from the chakra wrapped around his body and that's why V2 Lariat is stronger than V1 lariat. V2 is faster, stronger and the chakra wrapped around the body does far more damage. Regardless of whether or not they are moving at the same speed, a lariat from Base B will be weaker than one from V2 B.

 

[RedRobin]

Another thing to consider is not only is Nagato absorbing the chakra used for the attack he is taking even more to the point where the opponent

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and cant follow through in base .

 

[Apêx1]

There's no reason why it'd prevent damage to user's body. Nagato got hit by the Lariat and then absorbed B's chakra. Not sure why you are still comparing it to the Rasengan when the Rasengan was actually negated altogether. Rasengan is a chakra based attack. The power from B's lariat comes from the chakra wrapped around his body. At best you'll get away with arguing that absorbing V2's chakra made the Lariat too weak to injure him.

Because Rasengan hit Preta Path and then got absorbed. Same situation with V2 Bee. Preta didn't create a barrier around his body which nullified the properties of the chakra from the get-go like he did against FRS. He literally touched the Rasengan and massive impact against his hands/face occurred before he started absorbing/negating the Rasengan. Rasengan was negated after the impact just like V2 was, yet in both situations said 'impact' did absolutely no harm. And no, the power of V2 Lariat is mostly Bee's speed/physical strength and the chakra around him being a mere bonus given its hardness. Base Bee>v1 Ay Lariat wise, so surely the v2 speed/power enhancement is not necessary to inflict damage (he still did have it though given it added to his momentum/initial impact).

V2 Ay's punch is not a punch that is chakra based thus the example clearly doesn't hold. The power from his punch doesn't come from his Raiton Armor so absorbing said chakra doesn't change the fact that he gets a giant hole punched through his chest.

And even if you guys were right about this Ay can simply disable his armor when he's about to hit Nagato thus Nagato dies regardless. But you aren't right so this is a step that doesn't need to be taken.

It's the same exact thing since neither is using CES. Ay's Lariat is amplified via speed/power boost/body becomes so hard it deflects sword, identical to Bee. They're both shrouds, only difference is Ay's is transparent (otherwise it wouldn't increase durability but it canonically does).

And I agree on that, but he'd need prior knowledge of this because after the first failure it's all over via soul rip.

 

[KidGamer65]

Because Rasengan hit Preta Path and then got absorbed. Same situation with V2 Bee. Preta didn't create a barrier around his body which nullified the properties of the chakra from the get-go like he did against FRS. He literally touched the Rasengan and massive impact against his hands/face occurred before he started absorbing/negating the Rasengan. Rasengan was negated after the impact just like V2 was, yet in both situations said 'impact' did absolutely no harm. And no, the power of V2 Lariat is mostly Bee's speed/physical strength and the chakra around him being a mere bonus given its hardness. Base Bee>v1 Ay Lariat wise, so surely the v2 speed/power enhancement is not necessary to inflict damage (he still did have it though given it added to his momentum/initial impact).

But Rasengan did nothing to Preta Path. Didn't damage it nor did it push it back in any way, shape or form despite getting "hit". The same can't be said for Lariat as we can clearly see in the scan where he gets hit and he starts to get thrown back. The two scenarios are not the same and thus are not comparable. If they were the same Nagato wouldn't have budged and inch and then he would've sucked up B's chakra and blown him away.

And no, Base B's lariat isn't stronger than V1 Ay's lariat. B is physically stronger than Ay so if they run at the same speed and clash with each other obviously B will win. Ay didn't use Shunshin, he simply ran at Killer B. Ay uses the armor to boost his speed thus increasing the force he puts out using his lariat. Manga has already stated to use Double Lariat both Lariats have to be equal in power, and V1 Ay and V1 B matched each other and decapitated the Zetsu Kisame. Meaning full power V1 Ay Lariat=Full Power V1 B Lariat.

Is it necessary to inflict damage in general? No, but against someone as durable as Nagato? Yes, it is as there is a large gap between V2 Lariat, V1 Lariat, and Base Lariat. Each state increases speed, physical power and damage potential due to the nature of the chakra wrapped around the user.

It's the same exact thing since neither is using CES. Ay's Lariat is amplified via speed/power boost/body becomes so hard it deflects sword, identical to Bee. They're both shrouds, only difference is Ay's is transparent (otherwise it wouldn't increase durability but it canonically does).

But taking away Ay's shroud does nothing because the majority of his power isn't from his shroud. It's from Onoki's jutsu and the momentum generated by his speed which can't be changed after the fact. The same doesn't apply to B which is why your examples don't connect and don't hold any weight.

And I agree on that, but he'd need prior knowledge of this because after the first failure it's all over via soul rip.

No, it's not, because he'd still be sent flying regardless of negating the damage as B's lariat made him move regardless of the fact it didn't do damage. He has the Rinnegan, and they know that Preta Path is an ability due to their fight against Madara so it doesn't even matter regardless.

 

[Apêx1]

But Rasengan did nothing to Preta Path. Didn't damage it nor did it push it back in any way, shape or form despite getting "hit". The same can't be said for Lariat as we can clearly see in the scan where he gets hit and he starts to get thrown back. The two scenarios are not the same and thus are not comparable. If they were the same Nagato wouldn't have budged and inch and then he would've sucked up B's chakra and blown him away.

And no, Base B's lariat isn't stronger than V1 Ay's lariat. B is physically stronger than Ay so if they run at the same speed and clash with each other obviously B will win. Ay didn't use Shunshin, he simply ran at Killer B. Ay uses the armor to boost his speed thus increasing the force he puts out using his lariat. Manga has already stated to use Double Lariat both Lariats have to be equal in power, and V1 Ay and V1 B matched each other and decapitated the Zetsu Kisame. Meaning full power V1 Ay Lariat=Full Power V1 B Lariat.

Is it necessary to inflict damage in general? No, but against someone as durable as Nagato? Yes, it is as there is a large gap between V2 Lariat, V1 Lariat, and Base Lariat. Each state increases speed, physical power and damage potential due to the nature of the chakra wrapped around the user.



But taking away Ay's shroud does nothing because the majority of his power isn't from his shroud. It's from Onoki's jutsu and the momentum generated by his speed which can't be changed after the fact. The same doesn't apply to B which is why your examples don't connect and don't hold any weight.



No, it's not, because he'd still be sent flying regardless of negating the damage as B's lariat made him move regardless of the fact it didn't do damage. He has the Rinnegan, and they know that Preta Path is an ability due to their fight against Madara so it doesn't even matter regardless.

I didn't realise you were arguing Onoki is using his boulder jutsu on Ay. Thought you were saying Ay punching Nagato with V2 enhancement is different from V2 Bee doing it. My bad, I'll agree with you. Although, if Nagato gets a summon that can give vision behind him, he'd visually see Ay blitzing him - wouldn't he be able to ST him away? Onoki logically would need to react at the very last moment and use his jutsu, meaning in all likelihood he could react earlier. Nagato would just need to react the moment he notices it, if he can (which should be possible as Onoki can't possibly be that superior reactions wise).

 

[KidGamer65]

I didn't realise you were arguing Onoki is using his boulder jutsu on Ay. Thought you were saying Ay punching Nagato with V2 enhancement is different from V2 Bee doing it. My bad, I'll agree with you. Although, if Nagato gets a summon that can give vision behind him, he'd visually see Ay blitzing him - wouldn't he be able to ST him away? Onoki logically would need to react at the very last moment and use his jutsu, meaning in all likelihood he could react earlier. Nagato would just need to react the moment he notices it, if he can (which should be possible as Onoki can't possibly be that superior reactions wise).

Being able to see behind him doesn't mean he can visually process Ay's blitz. Faster people have failed to track and react to regular Ay let alone Nagato against a boosted Ay. Onoki doesn't have to react at the very last moment in order to cast his jutsu. If he times it right he can initiate the "command" to use his jutsu before Ay has reached the target so that the jutsu activates at the same time as Ay's strike despite Onoki being too slow to react to his top speed.

Either that or there is a short period of time in which Ay stops so that the heavy weight jutsu can be used, in that case reacting w/ ST is possible if Nagato can see.

 

[Lord Tywin]

No, most of it comes from the chakra wrapped around his body and that's why V2 Lariat is stronger than V1 lariat. V2 is faster, stronger and the chakra wrapped around the body does far more damage. Regardless of whether or not they are moving at the same speed, a lariat from Base B will be weaker than one from V2 B.

You're literally helping my point. The force behind his lariat comes from his acceleration. The chakra makes B faster, making his lariat stronger

It was absorbed mid-hit so the full lariat in V2 was not carried out.

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all happens in one quick succession.

Don't pull a Tre Mercier and read manga from right to left. It's clear that Nagato was hit then absorbed the cloak.

 

[Icelerate]

Being able to see behind him doesn't mean he can visually process Ay's blitz. Faster people have failed to track and react to regular Ay let alone Nagato against a boosted Ay. Onoki doesn't have to react at the very last moment in order to cast his jutsu. If he times it right he can initiate the "command" to use his jutsu before Ay has reached the target so that the jutsu activates at the same time as Ay's strike despite Onoki being too slow to react to his top speed.

Either that or there is a short period of time in which Ay stops so that the heavy weight jutsu can be used, in that case reacting w/ ST is possible if Nagato can see.

I think Onoki managed to react to Ay because all he has to do is feel Ay reel back his arm the moment he begins an attack. That doesn't mean he'd be able to react to a blitz because Onoki can't keep up with Ay's speed.