My Tier List.

[Nattana]

-The only reason Hiruzen lost was age, and that he would have won had he been 10 years younger, which isn't even his prime.

Wrong. It was said that 10 years younger Hiruzen would've managed to finish his RDS. Not win the fight. And the reason Hiruzen even managed to set up his RDS was because Orochimaru let him do that out of curiosity.

 

[KidGamer65]

The same can be said vise versa.

Not really.

I was pointing out that the muscles in your arm are doing a different workout when resisting a bind then your average pick and lift body strength. Much like how wrestling works.

I know, but does that mean if a binding is weak enough, someone strong enough won't break out?

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Superman was strong enough to break out, so he did.

1.@Bold dude, tell me how that makes sense. Her enhance strength results to her pumping chakra w/ precise on her body, doesn't matter what limb she is using. What I was bringing up as the power of her strength doesn't mean it will work as effectively by being held down.

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CES works by gathering chakra in the hands or feet, and then releasing as you strike the ground, thus a stronger impact. So no, it doesn't increase her strength overall. The only one who is naturally super strong is Tsunade, not Sakura.

2. We can't disprove each other by scenario considering Oro has full knowledge of her strength and thought this was the best option to over power her.

He's going to overpower her strength wise by binding her neck? That makes no sense.

3. Ok thats reasonable to say. Now do you think he could of broken out anyway? And with what diff?

I don't know if he could have broken out or not.

The scenario we were talking about was close quarters.

I know it is, but close quarters doesn't mean that the scenario starts with Susanoo being bound. Having the tools to do something means nothing if they can never be properly applied. That's like saying Base Madara and Konohamaru should be on the same level because the latter has the tools to kill the former.

The comparison is weight x mass.

Weight X Mass doesn't equal strength last time I checked.

weight x mass shows enough evidence that its body weight and muscles can fight something the same mass.

We talking about super ninja's who have been catching blades around the same mass as them. Even Manda 1 showed this again Gamabunta.
[/QUOTE]
Except Gamabunta isn't even in the same universe of strength as Perfect Susanoo.

You cant effectively use a sword when someone is holding your arms and legs down.

Except such a thing would never happen.

Not true, Kabuto said Manda 2 has the best senses compare to the king of snakes. We already witness Edo Itachi stating the snakes he was fighting against knows their exact movements through heat sensing. But one failed to dodge Sasuke sword when aren't using their senses.@Bold That doesn't make sense, he wasn't inside all 3 snakes. Using Naruto or anybody with toad contract as your proof isnt proof since both contracts has different communication and attributes.

He said he has better senses than Manda, not that he has better senses than himself. Moot point.

Edo Itachi stated that the snakes know their exact location via heat sensing, not that their reflexes are on par with Kabuto's.

3 snakes are there, then Kabuto shows himself, and there is only himself, and the snake attached to his body.

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So yes, he was in all 3 of them.

Same thing, they are all following orders, except the orders are delivered different ways. Different snakes, different physical parameters, yet you are telling me they all react as fast as Kabuto can? Lol, no.

Even if you still disagree with all of these, Kabuto already breach PS to which the sword will be useless to use for being so close Thus genjutsued

Before either does this and cuts his snake apart?

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No. Your scenario assumes that Manda has already bound Susanoo, which makes no sense at all.

The motion swung disagrees. And the fact that his hitbox would be very difficult to land that close anyway. When Madara got even closer guess what he did[

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].

No, it agrees since, he didn't swing at them or in their direction. He swung away from them to show them his power.

Then I guess you might have some kind of point here, that if they are too close PS shockwaves won't work, or killing them that way would be much more effective.

Base on science:

That only proves they move much faster than any other wave, not that they can't overpower any other wave due to speed.

No it covers all around[

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] from Shiki reaction. Temari blow it from all directions. air current above her, **** back to to built wind, and blew forward towards Tayuya. It covered all around Temari.

He looked around because Genjutsu means that he should be seeing something.

-Came at her in a straight path.

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-She blew it back, in a straight path.

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Does Hashirama have feats to dodge Susanoo arrow? Hashirama making the decsion to catch it instead of dodging doesn't =/= that he couldn't dodge. Then you are suggesting Hashirama couldn't avoid nor escape him [

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].<- The context here shows that Madara leveling the ground would put him at a devantage anyway.

Base Madara was able to Shunshin fast enough, that SM Naruto had to block. Base Hashirama is on his speed tier, so yes, I'm pretty sure that he can avoid a Susanoo arrow.

Hashirama being shown to catch it=/=Hashirama being able to dodge it. There's no basis for you to say that he can dodge it.

Except that scan doesn't show Madara swinging his blade. Hashirama was running from him and Madara was chasing him using PS Kurama. Anime clarifies that perfectly, and all logic dictates that no, he did not swing his blade there. Not to mention you have no evidence that he did swing his blade and that Hashirama did evade it.

That isn't even the same example w/ Juubito as he was already in motion when Sasuke was keeping track. But being one position moving at the last sec is much different to change where they decide they are going to move, when you already swung in motion

Being in motion isn't going to make it harder for him to evade Sasuke's attacks. Sasuke was

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but started to be able to track him, then he tagged him. Being in motion isn't going to change how Sharingan's precognation works, nor is it going to make it any harder or easier to hit Juubito.

So once again, Kabuto isn't evading slashes that Juubito couldn't.

No speed strike speed to do that unless you think Six Path boost didn't make help Sasuke perform that feat. Otherwise your gonna need evidence.

Six Paths Boost?

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Oh wait, that was before. Lol. Kabuto isn't evading what Juubito couldn't.

Why does that matter? Every point can factor PS users trouble to defeat Kabuto as much as vise versa. Sounded bias here

Bias? Being able to stop PS's attack once doesn't mean that Kabuto can fight on par with it. Kabuto having the tools to defeat PS means absolutely nothing when he can't apply them during battle without getting hard countered.

 

[OmegaRed721]

Nagato and Edo Itachi should be in the tier above KCM Nardo and Killer B imho.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I know, but does that mean if a binding is weak enough, someone strong enough won't break out?

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Superman was strong enough to break out, so he did.

Thats not even remotely close to my example comparison as the chain is much weaker then a man with limitless strength.

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CES works by gathering chakra in the hands or feet, and then releasing as you strike the ground, thus a stronger impact. So no, it doesn't increase her strength overall. The only one who is naturally super strong is Tsunade, not Sakura.

I guess it was natural to pull in Sasori from hitting Chiyo. Meh

How about Sage Kabuto being held down by Susanoo arms? Whats your view? Can the same arm be able to = strength with Sage Mode characters?

He's going to overpower her strength wise by binding her neck? That makes no sense.

Overpower her strength? No. But choking her as his best result to kill her yes. Wither she would succeed or not there will be resisting.

I don't know if he could have broken out or not.

Why doubt about it being successful or not? He clearly block a V3 chop. Are you suggesting the blocking a swipe isn't the same as breaking out of a bind?

I know it is, but close quarters doesn't mean that the scenario starts with Susanoo being bound. Having the tools to do something means nothing if they can never be properly applied. That's like saying Base Madara and Konohamaru should be on the same level because the latter has the tools to kill the former.

I didn't start the battle being bound. No need to address anything else as you already agree that the shockwave isn't effective close quarters.

Weight X Mass doesn't equal strength last time I checked.

Not = strength doesn't matter. Remember humans can't overpower a snake as you suggested, if they were to get choke by them. Who has more mass and weight? The human. A human's weight and mass can easily throw or kill a snake. So the comparison I am making follow that not = strength is irrelevant. Just use its weight against it. Snake have different muscle anyway and it comes from suppressing.

Except Gamabunta isn't even in the same universe of strength as Perfect Susanoo.

Nor is it to Manda 2. That example was to show the compatibility that carries the same mass and weight range from each other.

Except such a thing would never happen.

What do you mean? It close quarters, Manda 2 would target the arms thats being swung and work its way from there.

He said he has better senses than Manda, not that he has better senses than himself. Moot point.

I didn't say that they were equal... But forget this point as I dont feel like arguing their link inbetween. Heat sensing it enough to read Susanoo's movements.

Edo Itachi stated that the snakes know their exact location via heat sensing, not that their reflexes are on par with Kabuto's.

Same as above

3 snakes are there, then Kabuto shows himself, and there is only himself, and the snake attached to his body.

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So yes, he was in all 3 of them.

Thats impossible since the scan shows 3 separate (unless you want me to draw the separate lines for you, to prove they aren't fused) entity so no he wasn't he was in one of them.

Same thing, they are all following orders, except the orders are delivered different ways. Different snakes, different physical parameters, yet you are telling me they all react as fast as Kabuto can? Lol, no.

Same as above

Before either does this and cuts his snake apart?

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Before of course

No. Your scenario assumes that Manda has already bound Susanoo, which makes no sense at all.

No I didn't I argue when gets to that point in close quarters.

That only proves they move much faster than any other wave, not that they can't overpower any other wave due to speed.

Then why does a sonic bomb come after a shockwave? It literally leaves it to dust. The shockwave Madara produces only cuts. Madara will only be cutting sound. So it isn't overpowering it, its just going to cut right through.

He looked around because Genjutsu means that he should be seeing something.

Huh? He look around because sound travels all around.

-Came at her in a straight path.

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-She blew it back, in a straight path.

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Doesn't disprove how sound works. Like I mention above. And this scan also shows Temari cover wind all over around her.

Sound travels all around fact. You can even see Kabuto's sound waves above the Uchiha brothers[(

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)]. So its not at a specific spot.

Base Madara was able to Shunshin fast enough, that SM Naruto had to block. Base Hashirama is on his speed tier, so yes, I'm pretty sure that he can avoid a Susanoo arrow.

Base on that? How does that prove anything when EMS Madara was able to fight CQC on bar with Base Hashirama + SM Hashirama can CQC (considering SM increases your stats)[

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] Your reasoning is not adding up to determine Hashirama's speed.

Hashirama being shown to catch it=/=Hashirama being able to dodge it. There's no basis for you to say that he can dodge it.

Why can't I base on his words that he can easily predict to where you will swing that sword?

Except that scan doesn't show Madara swinging his blade. Hashirama was running from him and Madara was chasing him using PS Kurama. Anime clarifies that perfectly, and all logic dictates that no, he did not swing his blade there. Not to mention you have no evidence that he did swing his blade and that Hashirama did evade it.

That scan wasn't to show that he can dodge it. It was to show that his decision was best that he block it instead since smashing the ground along with Hashirama would put Madara at a advantage.

Being in motion isn't going to make it harder for him to evade Sasuke's attacks. Sasuke was

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but started to be able to track him, then he tagged him. Being in motion isn't going to change how Sharingan's precognation works, nor is it going to make it any harder or easier to hit Juubito.

So once again, Kabuto isn't evading slashes that Juubito couldn't.

Except I said the exact opposite of being motion. I said dodging the swing last sec.

Six Paths Boost?

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Oh wait, that was before. Lol. Kabuto isn't evading what Juubito couldn't.

I was directly speaking of this quote "though they can just cut him up into multiple pieces" I took the context as consecutive slashes, which is the only option to cut someone or something in multiple pieces

But still you scan doesn't show what I meant with consecutive slashes you suggest PS can do.

Bias? Being able to stop PS's attack once doesn't mean that Kabuto can fight on par with it. Kabuto having the tools to defeat PS means absolutely nothing when he can't apply them during battle without getting hard countered.

Once? Could of sworn I suggest many options like Doton, snakes, and Genjutsu. And I fail to see this hard counter when PS will have as much trouble due to lack of hitbox, against small characters, lacking a counter to Genjutsu, when close quarters encounter, because once again hitbox of the shockwave. And lack of counter to deflect the sound when the energy of the shockwave would make it impossible.

 

[Varrah]

KCM Naruto and KCM Minato have the speed to evade pretty much all of his attacks, especially Minato. Susanoo is never hitting him, neither is Amaterasu. They both have their own method of getting past Susanoo. Minato can warp it away, or he can warp Itachi outside of it, and Naruto has multiple FRS, or COFRS to break through it.

Aside from sealing jutsu, they have him completely beat.

He can't even touch Obito, and Gedo Mazo would break his Susanoo open like a tin can, so he isn't beating Obito either.

Nagato should be a given. Preta Path shuts down all his Ninjutsu, Shared Vision shuts down his Ocular Genjutsu (Don't say that Itachi countered this in canon, because Nagato was focused on B and Naruto while he did this) and Chou Shinra Tensei blows Susanoo apart, or Chibaku Tensei puts Itachi away for good.

I stated:​

Edo Itachi should be higher; Edo Tensei, in consequence, removes a chief element which restricted Itachi from achieving his potential, ergo the effectiveness of his tactics are significantly improved. ​

The support you’ve used in your argument misses the point of my argument which is the benefits of Edo Tensei erasing a key factor that partly—as it an element not the element—restricted Itachi from achieving his potential so the effectiveness of the tactics he can employ are enriched substantially.

You aren't missing the context of your argument, thus the evidence in support of your argument stands; but, while you are attempting to defend your position of Edo Itachi’s placement on the list, a specific conclusion, the supporting evidence you’ve used does misses the context of mine; the reasons you’ve used do not combat the notion “the effectiveness of his tactics are significantly improved/enriched substantially.” I am arguing that the effectiveness of Itachi's tactics are dramatically improved by virtue of Edo Tensei, thus, he should place higher on the list in a similar matter to how Edo Minato contrasts from his living counterpart, the difference is considerable.

(I understand your reasonsing; but, I do not agree with the reasons you've used.)​

Kabuto should definitely be a given since Itachi needed help to put him down in canon.

This is arguable: once can say the stipulations volunteered Itachi to rely on Sasuke. ​

 

[KidGamer65]

I stated:​

The support you’ve used in your argument misses the point of my argument which is the benefits of Edo Tensei erasing a key factor that partly—as it an element not the element—restricted Itachi from achieving his potential so the effectiveness of the tactics he can employ are enriched substantially.

You aren't missing the context of your argument, thus the evidence in support of your argument stands; but, while you are attempting to defend your position of Edo Itachi’s placement on the list, a specific conclusion, the supporting evidence you’ve used does misses the context of mine; the reasons you’ve used do not combat the notion “the effectiveness of his tactics are significantly improved/enriched substantially.” I am arguing that the effectiveness of Itachi's tactics are dramatically improved by virtue of Edo Tensei, thus, he should place higher on the list in a similar matter to how Edo Minato contrasts from his living counterpart, the difference is considerable.

(I understand your reasonsing; but, I do not agree with the reasons you've used.)​

This is arguable: once can say the stipulations volunteered Itachi to rely on Sasuke. ​

To make it much easier for the both of us, tell me exactly why you think Itachi should go up. I see the main reason you think he should go up, but that's it. You should elaborate. That's why I failed to respond to your argument correctly.

 

[Varrah]

To make it much easier for the both of us, tell me exactly why you think Itachi should go up. I see the main reason you think he should go up, but that's it. You should elaborate. That's why I failed to respond to your argument correctly.

What would you like to be elaborated? The output of Edo Itachi's repertoire is far greater than his living counterpart which combined with his ingenuity and duplicity makes him an extremely dangerous opponent.​

 

[KidGamer65]

What would you like to be elaborated? The output of Edo Itachi's repertoire is far greater than his living counterpart which combined with his ingenuity and duplicity makes him an extremely dangerous opponent.​

Like why exactly he needs to go in the same tier as KCM Naruto, Nagato and the rest of them? How exactly does Edo Tensei increase his fighting ability so much that he should go in their tier? I know its better, that's why I have Edo Itachi a tier above Sick Itachi.