Muu vs Itachi

Haizaki · Jan 16, 2016

This dude doesn;t even know how the Sharingan works let a lone what I read regarding the copying aspect. Expect a reply lmao.

Beans2 · Jan 16, 2016

Haizaki said:
This dude doesn;t even know how the Sharingan works let a lone what I read regarding the copying aspect. Expect a reply lmao.

Well, you definitely weren't lying when you said "I vow not to lose."

NarutoX28 · Jan 16, 2016

Mu was praised as the invisible man during Madara's era similar to how Tobirama was praised as the fastest man during Madara's era as well and Tobirama himself fought against multiple Uchihas. The fact that it was an ability exclusive to Tobirama due to Madara's hype could imply that it was for Mu despite being in an era where Uchihas were one of the most dominant clans with only the Senju rivaling him.

Even then, Mu's invisibility doesn't use seals and as Beans already addressed, the Sharingan's enhanced visual perception enables one to copy techniques through seals or muscle tensions, so he's not going to copy Mu's technique as Mu's technique uses water vapor to bend light into a prism which involves no muscle tensions whatsoever.

Haizaki · Jan 16, 2016

Beans2 said:
1. The title only states that when one hand touches a person the jutsu takes effect, and that's true. Doesn't rule out the fact that it's not the only way to weigh down a person, which can be done through indirect contact as manga shows.

No, the title ALONE ridicules your argument because if what you were saying was true, then it would be made clear. Let's also refer to the opposite jutsu "⇧ Touching the target instantly, gravity is removed. The user of the Jutsu regulates the amount of gravity snatched." . Touching the target. Only refer to touching the target alone and not "In contact with him or her" Never was it stated anywhere so where are you getting this fan fic from? LOL.

"When this happens, that takes effect"...Not when something else beans stated, that happens. It's been made clear as day that hand touching the individual causes it to happen to him and not his surroundings.

What even makes your post bad to read is the mere fact that we clearly get a scan of Onoki going to touch Mu as a prime example of this technique in the DB and your fiction isn't addressed anywhere.

2. "The user can make use of a type desert region to easily bury the enemy alive by immersing it in the sand." How does that prove that the surrounding sand wasn't weighed down? The sentence literally just states that Onoki can bury the enemy using the jutsu in a desert. Doesn't have any implications beyond that, and certainly doesn't change the fact that normal sand doesn't act like this when a heavy object is placed on top of it:

You must be registered for see images

Because it clearly mention the desert environment as a means in which one can use but it mentions the use being the individual being immersed in it which is the primary use. If you were right, it would clearly be made known that it's altered which also plays a part in it.

Not to mention let's point out something your post ignores, Gaara. If the sand was altered given that this is merely a drawing, Gaara would have made it known since it's seen here that he controlled the very sand easily

You must be registered for see links

. When the sand was made lighter, Gaara who was surprised and made it clear as if he never experienced a change with the sand and so did Onoki even though Gaara was told

You must be registered for see links

but somehow Gaara doesn't notice a difference in the sand when used against Mu? Something he controlled. Never speaks of it and you expect us to take you seriously? Nah dude get real.

If only Muu was weighted down, he would have sunk through the sand, not make it look elastic. You can see that the surrounding grains of sand were affected even though they aren't touching Muu.

So the sand made much more lighter around Madara didn't make him to sink since logically Madara became heavier compared to it ad we know how light the sound was? What's your point? Plus that's the Manga's way of showing us Mu was weighted. Why would Onoki even make the sand heavier when he knows Gaara has to use it in order to seal Mu? Making things harder? Nope. DB makes use of immersing it in the sand which means dipping him in the sand. That was the caption used when Onoki was shown using it on Mu. That being made clear that Mu was supposed to be in the sand so no the sand wasn't weighted alongside him too as this isn't a case of Mu being dipped in it.

3. I already explained to KG why Onoki touched Muu. A couple reasons:

-It's more effective.
-He knows where to direct his jutsu.

Just because Onoki can weight down objects through indirect contact with the ground doesn't mean he can just touch the ground and anybody anywhere gets weighted. If his target's position is constantly changing (refer to how Muu was
You must be registered for see links
), then he can't know exactly where to direct his jutsu. So he used it directly on Muu.

More fictions but I addressed above.

Another reason he used it directly on Muu is because the jutsu's effect weakens the further away the target is from the point of contact. Why do you think he decided to use weighted-boulder on Muu, knowing full well Muu could just counter its effects by lightening himself? Probably because he made Muu so heavy that he would have no way of canceling its effect even with LB. If he had just used it on the ground, its effect on Muu wouldn't have been so great.

LOL enough. By this logic Onoki touching the likes of Ay makes him incredibly strong as seen with how he put a whole in V2 Susan'o but then how did Onoki make him lighter again if the LB couldn't counter the effect? SMH. You just keep on making things up over and over again. Both Onoki and Mu's technique would have the same effect regardless on whether it's themselves or others.

Which is all irrelevant because even if Onoki did use LB directly on the desert floor, he only touched a few individual grains of sand yet the grains of sand below Madara's feet also got lightened despite Onoki not having been in direct contact with them.

Lmao we've had enough. Not to mention why were the others in contact with the ground not lightened? Let's see how get contradicted later on.

Do you even know how Ay/Onoki's backpack combo works? Ay's punches are all useless when he's lightened, so Onoki has to weigh down Ay's fist at the last second as he strikes. If Onoki wasn't on Ay's back, he wouldn't know where Ay was (so he wouldn't know where to direct his jutsu) nor would he know when to use WB because he doesn't know when Ay is going to strike. That should be obvious.

LOL dude this "He won't know where he was argument is weak. I already showed you the fact that with the golem, that an attack from Ay wasn't needed yet he still was on his back. Look here

You must be registered for see links

Ay separates from Onoki but after Golem was pulled out, he still had to be with him later on.

You're all over the place here. I am sticking to the manga because there are multiple manga panels of LB/WB working against targets who Onoki does not directly touch. You can choose to disregard my assumption if you like, but it doesn't take away from the fact that:

-Onoki lightened all the objects on turtle island despite only touching the actual turtle.
-Onoki lightened the sand beneath Madara's feet despite not touching the actual grains of sand beneath Madara.
-The desert sand around Muu was weighted down despite Onoki only touching Muu.

Unless you're silly enough to really suggest Onoki just by touching the turtle island could know how many animal and individuals to lighten (plus the objects), then don't bother with this joke. Before, you stated Onoki made the sand around Madara lightened by touching the ground but he somehow didn't make Madara and his Susano'o lightened. He somehow didn't make the Alliance lightened but you go ahead to suggest Onoki without knowledge on everything on the island can make whatever it is on it lightened? Smh out of here because it should work the same way. By this logic, anything in contact with what's made lightened or weighted becomes the same as well. Which we all know is absolute crap. Not to mention KidGamer already explained to you :

You must be registered for see links

-None of the people are showing any signs of being lightened.
-B's tail makes an impact it wouldn't have made if it were lightened, thus reduced power.
-Same goes for the falling rocks from the building.

If this means that Onoki carried them with their weight included, HELL yes that's far better than taking this bad logic you're using.

- Onoki lightened what beneath Madara by not making contact? Lol fiction not backed up.

- More fan fiction that was addressed.

None of these you've been able to counter, because they are manga facts. What do I draw from these manga facts? The logical conclusion that Onoki weighted down the Susanoo clones he was fighting by using WB on the ground. But hey, if you don't like that explanation it doesn't matter because Onoki's on-panel feats still work in my favor.

Lmao read again.

Weighing down Madara would have accomplished nothing as they still wouldn't be able to stop Susanoo, plus I already explained that the more distance there is between the target and the point of contact, the less effective the jutsu is. I hope the underlined is a joke btw. Making objects lighter doesn't make them less durable, the only thing that would have accomplished is Madara's Susanoo would be lighter and faster, and therefore even harder to fight against.

Do you know how silly you sound? Weighing down Madara would have accomplished much as the already could stop Susano'o shown with Ay putting a whole in it or even Jinton as shown before.

- In the Mist Susano'o with no legs could have been made lighter which would lead to 2 things, either it floating off Madara leaving him vulnerable for devastating attacks and Madara not being able to see in the Mist well would help out. Making objects heavier makes them more durable? Because either way one of the 2 should have been done.

- Let's not ignore the Gaara point. Why did Gaara have to use his own Sand to immobilize Susano'o here instead

You must be registered for see links

? Why not it being weighted which would immobilize it. Beans should know of course.

@Bold, LOL you're still arguing this point after all this time? The sharingan lets the user see movements with increased perception allowing the user to imitate movements. That's why sharingan can copy ninjutsu, because the user can replicate an opponent's hand seals. That's like saying Sasuke can copy Ay's raiton armour just because he has sharingan and a raiton chakra nature. When has a sharingan user ever copied a non handseal-based ninjutsu? It's impossible.

Listen..If you don't have a good response as to why rather than sending VM's like last time of you not wanting to continue, then don't ask me why I'm still using it when you never fully addressed it.

LMAO...that's not how it works. The Databook alone kills your entire paragraph. Look for bold.

Sharingan 写輪眼
-----------------

This is konoha's finest clan, Uchiha Clan's bloodline limit. Within the clan, there is only a portion of the members, possess this special ability. The tomoe seal within the pupil is the special markings of the Sharingan. Sharingan is an observation eye, which is capable of exposing everything, an illusion eye capable of casting illusions and also an eye of jutsu copying capabilities. Just like in the battle between Kakashi and Zabuza, where it seems like it can predict the future, and using different combat methods, allowing the user to have unlimited defensive and offensive strategies.

Sharingan's observation eye, is one of the finest in doujutsu. Within split seconds, this observation eye is capable of exposing to the user all systems of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu, also the movement and attacking path of the opponent, or the opponent's defences against fatal moves, evading movements from the user's attack, etc... These will enhance the overall combat abilities of the user in different situations. This petrifying ability is worthy of the title, "Heaven's Eye".

Plus the ability of copying, Sharingan, can wield its true capabilities... that is to copy and possess jutsus seen only once by the user. Regardless of whether its chakra molding or seals forming, all the under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to weild the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu. However, an Uchiha will not allow himself to be restricted by these conditions. This is because they will utilised their accumulated combat experience, and also bring out their potential when the need arises. The more critical the situation is, the more they are able to harness their potential to the maximum.

Doesn't matter at all and only requires to be seen last stated. Not to mention we've seen Kakashi copy the water clone Jutsu while in the Mist and we know that doesn't help his eyes effectively. As long as Itachi is skilled in the nature here, he copies it and is he? Feats are there.

@Underline, are you resorting to the "Amaterasu right off the bat GG" strategy? Because I'm not going to even address this considering the starting distance is 40 meters and the fact that Muu can go invisible within a few seconds.

So what? 40M does what? As if that's a factor when he can still see Mu and have it spawn on him. Based on what reason? None. Like we didn't see Sasuke use a Genjutsu from such a distance against Deidara. What exactly supports this distance being a factor for Itachi. Mu doesn't go invisible at once..3 panels and not completely gone...Look very closely at the first one and you would notice he's going invisible. It's well seen with how his hand is missing and compare his stance to the second panel and you'll notice

You must be registered for see links

. Meanwhile Itachi? One panel

You must be registered for see links

and can fire multiple shots in 2 panels

You must be registered for see links

. It's clear which is faster and let's look at the individual.

The clones are irrelevant since Muu doesn't have to physically go up to the clone and stab it, as long as he knows each clone's position he can just use WB on the ground to immobilize each clone, one at a time if necessary, then clean up with Jinton. BTW if Itachi ever uses Susanoo above a ribcage, that's a dead giveaway to which one is the real Itachi.

LMFAO you not tired but go over everything I said and comeback to this.

Beans2 · Jan 20, 2016

Finally have some time to reply to this

Haizaki said:
No, the title ALONE ridicules your argument because if what you were saying was true, then it would be made clear. Let's also refer to the opposite jutsu "⇧ Touching the target instantly, gravity is removed. The user of the Jutsu regulates the amount of gravity snatched." . Touching the target. Only refer to touching the target alone and not "In contact with him or her" Never was it stated anywhere so where are you getting this fan fic from? LOL.

"When this happens, that takes effect"...Not when something else beans stated, that happens. It's been made clear as day that hand touching the individual causes it to happen to him and not his surroundings.

What even makes your post bad to read is the mere fact that we clearly get a scan of Onoki going to touch Mu as a prime example of this technique in the DB and your fiction isn't addressed anywhere.

Wrong. Not every detail of the jutsu is made explicitly clear by the DB entry. Once again, the DB states only that the jutsu will take effect when the user touches the target (the way the jutsu is usually applied) which doesn't indicate that WB can't also work through indirect contact like it was shown to do in manga. What's especially hilarious is that according to the Databook, Muu can't even use the weighted boulder or lightened boulder techniques since Onoki is listed as the only user. Are you going to go ahead and deny that he can't use either technique, even though we've seen him use it on panel? Stop with the garbage logic.

-Manga shows LB being used through indirect contact.
-Manga feats>Databook entry. As proven by the fact Muu isn't even listed as a user for the jutsu.
-Onoki touching Muu doesn't even begin to prove your point.

Haizaki said:
Because it clearly mention the desert environment as a means in which one can use but it mentions the use being the individual being immersed in it which is the primary use. If you were right, it would clearly be made known that it's altered which also plays a part in it.

Not necessarily. Read it again: "The user can make use of a type desert region to easily bury the enemy alive by immersing it in the sand." This is what it's saying, in the rawest, simplest terms: Weighted boulder technique + desert region = buried opponent. Nowhere does it specify that the jutsu has to be used only on the target and not on the surrounding desert sand for the enemy to be buried. Drop this point because it's not helping you.

Haizaki said:
Not to mention let's point out something your post ignores, Gaara. If the sand was altered given that this is merely a drawing, Gaara would have made it known since it's seen here that he controlled the very sand easily
You must be registered for see links
. When the sand was made lighter, Gaara who was surprised and made it clear as if he never experienced a change with the sand and so did Onoki even though Gaara was told
You must be registered for see links
but somehow Gaara doesn't notice a difference in the sand when used against Mu? Something he controlled. Never speaks of it and you expect us to take you seriously? Nah dude get real.

So you're using the fact that Gaara does NOT make a statement, to prove that it wasn't weighted..? Lol wow, ok. Maybe you could read between the lines and realize that

You must be registered for see links

because he realized how lightened sand could be applicable against the enemy whereas weighted sand would serve no purpose to him. No reason for him to make comment or be surprised at the weighted sand when he literally just witnessed Onoki using the weighted technique on Muu. In fact,

You must be registered for see links

page is just more evidence for me that the sand is weighted, because Gaara's sand moves more slowly when it's heavy. It took Gaara more than two panels to completely seal Muu, when we know he can

You must be registered for see links

in the span of a couple seconds with his normal-weight sand.

Haizaki said:
So the sand made much more lighter around Madara didn't make him to sink since logically Madara became heavier compared to it ad we know how light the sound was? What's your point? Plus that's the Manga's way of showing us Mu was weighted. Why would Onoki even make the sand heavier when he knows Gaara has to use it in order to seal Mu? Making things harder? Nope. DB makes use of immersing it in the sand which means dipping him in the sand. That was the caption used when Onoki was shown using it on Mu. That being made clear that Mu was supposed to be in the sand so no the sand wasn't weighted alongside him too as this isn't a case of Mu being dipped in it.

-Madara didn't sink into the sand that was comparatively lighter than him because Madara wasn't weighted therefore he had no reason to. The reason Muu partially sank into the sand is not because the sand was lighter than he was, it's because Muu was heavy.

-Cut the crap. "Manga's way of showing us Muu was weighted" doesn't even begin to explain away the fact that normal sand doesn't

You must be registered for see links

when a heavy object is placed on top of it.

-Don't know. Maybe since Onoki super-weighted Muu he had no control over the fact that the effects of the jutsu spread over to the surrounding grains of sand just a little (you can see the effects of the weight decrease the farther away the sand is from Muu, hence the crater.)

Haizaki said:
More fictions but I addressed above.

Lol no, I addressed very clearly why Onoki didn't weigh down Muu through indirect contact with the ground which kills your contention of Onoki touching Muu as being "proof" that direct contact is needed.

Haizaki said:
LOL enough. By this logic Onoki touching the likes of Ay makes him incredibly strong as seen with how he put a whole in V2 Susan'o but then how did Onoki make him lighter again if the LB couldn't counter the effect? SMH. You just keep on making things up over and over again. Both Onoki and Mu's technique would have the same effect regardless on whether it's themselves or others.

If lightened boulder can always undo weighted boulder, why did Onoki weigh down Muu knowing full well Muu could just cancel the effects by using lightened boulder on himself? Why didn't Muu just do that? Lol at the bold, nothing in any of the logic I used would imply that. Never said LB can't undo WB- just that if a powerful enough WB is used its effects can't always be immediately countered with the opposite jutsu.

Haizaki said:
Lmao we've had enough. Not to mention why were the others in contact with the ground not lightened? Let's see how get contradicted later on.

....There's nothing for me to counter here, since you ignored a key piece of evidence. Since you ignored it, I'm assuming you have no counter. I'll write it here again:

Which is all irrelevant because even if Onoki did use LB directly on the desert floor, he only touched a few individual grains of sand yet the grains of sand below Madara's feet also got lightened despite Onoki not having been in direct contact with them.

This proves direct contact with the target isn't needed.

Haizaki said:
LOL dude this "He won't know where he was argument is weak. I already showed you the fact that with the golem, that an attack from Ay wasn't needed yet he still was on his back. Look here
You must be registered for see links
Ay separates from Onoki but after Golem was pulled out, he still had to be with him later on.

LOL WTF. This is so totally irrelevant I don't even know why you even attributed this to be evidence that direct contact is needed for WB to work. Please connect the dots for me because I just don't see it. If Onoki doesn't know where his target is, he doesn't know where to direct his Doton chakra that he inserts into the earth. This should be phucking obvious, so stop saying that argument is weak. What the hell is the golem supposed to prove?

Haizaki said:
Unless you're silly enough to really suggest Onoki just by touching the turtle island could know how many animal and individuals to lighten (plus the objects), then don't bother with this joke. Before, you stated Onoki made the sand around Madara lightened by touching the ground but he somehow didn't make Madara and his Susano'o lightened. He somehow didn't make the Alliance lightened but you go ahead to suggest Onoki without knowledge on everything on the island can make whatever it is on it lightened? Smh out of here because it should work the same way. By this logic, anything in contact with what's made lightened or weighted becomes the same as well. Which we all know is absolute crap. Not to mention KidGamer already explained to you :

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see links

-None of the people are showing any signs of being lightened.
-B's tail makes an impact it wouldn't have made if it were lightened, thus reduced power.
-Same goes for the falling rocks from the building.

If this means that Onoki carried them with their weight included, HELL yes that's far better than taking this bad logic you're using.

- Onoki lightened what beneath Madara by not making contact? Lol fiction not backed up.

- More fan fiction that was addressed.

I'm starting to think you're right about the turtle island, partially right at least. It's because I thought up another explanation: Onoki lightened the turtle so much that it in fact was lighter than air, proof being that it floated up out of the ocean (unless you believe Onoki went underwater and pushed it up.) The objects on the island retained their normal weight, counterbalancing the lighter-than air turtle so that it didn't float away like a balloon, which is why Onoki still had to carry it.

But there's no way in hell the bold happened.

Haizaki said:
Lmao read again.

Nothing to say here.

Haizaki said:
Do you know how silly you sound? Weighing down Madara would have accomplished much as the already could stop Susano'o shown with Ay putting a whole in it or even Jinton as shown before.

- In the Mist Susano'o with no legs could have been made lighter which would lead to 2 things, either it floating off Madara leaving him vulnerable for devastating attacks and Madara not being able to see in the Mist well would help out. Making objects heavier makes them more durable? Because either way one of the 2 should have been done.

- Let's not ignore the Gaara point. Why did Gaara have to use his own Sand to immobilize Susano'o here instead
You must be registered for see links
? Why not it being weighted which would immobilize it. Beans should know of course.

You know what? I don't know why Onoki didn't choose to weigh Madara down, and I don't have to know. That just wasn't their strategy. Their strategy was for Gaara to use the lightened sand at Madara's feet to whisk him out of Susanoo and then for Naruto to hit him with FRS.

But, if you're not obligated to come up with a reasonable explanation as to how Onoki tagged 5 Susanoo clones off panel, then I'm sure as hell not obligated to come up with an answer to why Onoki went with this strategy.

Haizaki said:
Listen..If you don't have a good response as to why rather than sending VM's like last time of you not wanting to continue, then don't ask me why I'm still using it when you never fully addressed it.

LMAO...that's not how it works. The Databook alone kills your entire paragraph. Look for bold.

Doesn't matter at all and only requires to be seen last stated. Not to mention we've seen Kakashi copy the water clone Jutsu while in the Mist and we know that doesn't help his eyes effectively. As long as Itachi is skilled in the nature here, he copies it and is he? Feats are there.

This argument is dumb AF. Muu's invisibility jutsu is more than just chakra molding. It's literally chakra extinguishing, a skill that Itachi doesn't have so Muu being a sensor will pick up Itachi's location even if Itachi were invisible, which wouldn't happen in the first place given that DBC is a jutsu that takes a high degree of training to master (if it didn't, Muu wouldn't be the only user in history and hyped for his ability.) Not to mention Muu's gonna be invisible so how the hell is Itachi going to copy a jutsu he can't even see with his own sharingan?

Under the logic you're using, any jutsu ever can be copied by a sharingan user so long as it's not KKG and they have the correct chakra nature. That's completely ignoring the training, chakra control, and skill it takes to master a technique.

under the logic you're using right now:

-Sasuke could have just copied Ay's raiton armour with his sharingan
-Sasuke could have seen the chakra in Sakura's fist and copy it, allowing him to land earth shattering punches like she and Tsunade do

more examples but I don't feel like thinking up any more right now

Haizaki said:
So what? 40M does what? As if that's a factor when he can still see Mu and have it spawn on him. Based on what reason? None. Like we didn't see Sasuke use a Genjutsu from such a distance against Deidara. What exactly supports this distance being a factor for Itachi. Mu doesn't go invisible at once..3 panels and not completely gone...Look very closely at the first one and you would notice he's going invisible. It's well seen with how his hand is missing and compare his stance to the second panel and you'll notice
You must be registered for see links
. Meanwhile Itachi? One panel
You must be registered for see links
and can fire multiple shots in 2 panels
You must be registered for see links
. It's clear which is faster and let's look at the individual.

Not going to make this post any longer than necessary. The fact that you are resorting to "Amaterasu off the bat GG" shows that you're giving yourself an out because you know that I'm right about the main point of this debate which is if WB can be used with indirect contact. Concede that and I'll address this.

Haizaki said:
LMFAO you not tired but go over everything I said and comeback to this.

Honestly didnt want to reply to this with all the insults you were throwing

Haizaki · Jan 21, 2016

You finished once I respond.

Beans2 · Jan 21, 2016

Haizaki said:
You finished once I respond.

Lol just stfu Nd respond, no need for unnecesary posts like this

EDIT: Lol Haizaki neg repped me for this post

You must be registered for see images

Bruh quit saying niguh, you white as hell plus it's offensive.

Haizaki · Jan 22, 2016

Beans2 said:
Finally have some time to reply to this

I saw you low-key trying to concede to that turtle Island point but just can't cause you know you gonna feel silly.

Wrong. Not every detail of the jutsu is made explicitly clear by the DB entry. Once again, the DB states only that the jutsu will take effect when the user touches the target (the way the jutsu is usually applied) which doesn't indicate that WB can't also work through indirect contact like it was shown to do in manga. What's especially hilarious is that according to the Databook, Muu can't even use the weighted boulder or lightened boulder techniques since Onoki is listed as the only user. Are you going to go ahead and deny that he can't use either technique, even though we've seen him use it on panel? Stop with the garbage logic.

The bold doesn't relate to the DB not making the mechanics of the Jutsu known to us. You came up with something known as a theory not backed up. "I also made the sand around here light" could have been based on the fact that he did it off panel. So no, that's not something to rely on especially when there are things that go against it not being made know. What's garbage is how you bring up the fact that the DB did not list a user being able to use it but then relate that to the mechanics of the Jutsu not being explained by the DB. Trash. That's a very important factor that should never be left out especially if a message is being sent across to the viewers.

Plus Onoki also had this in mind so it's no surprise of him making the area lighter. He didn't plan with Gaara beforehand but he just ran to his back and used the Jutsu and then told him he also made the area lighter. Please let's be serious with this weak points.

-Manga shows LB being used through indirect contact.
-Manga feats>Databook entry. As proven by the fact Muu isn't even listed as a user for the jutsu.
-Onoki touching Muu doesn't even begin to prove your point.

Nobody cosigns this attempt. Manga didn't but you really forcing this bad point hard. Not to mention the fact that he somehow made the area lighter but somehow left the alliance who were in contact with it makes this point laughable seeing as you claimed he made everyone on that that turtle island lightened by just touching the turtle and claiming that he made the sand lighter by just touching Mu or the power was so great that sand got affected somehow lmao.

Not necessarily. Read it again: "The user can make use of a type desert region to easily bury the enemy alive by immersing it in the sand." This is what it's saying, in the rawest, simplest terms: Weighted boulder technique + desert region = buried opponent. Nowhere does it specify that the jutsu has to be used only on the target and not on the surrounding desert sand for the enemy to be buried. Drop this point because it's not helping you.

No you need to actually read and understand what I'm saying. The use of the sand is to immerse the user IN IT as stated right there in the DB. Making it heavy doesn't actually make the user immerse in it and you know that's what you stating too because you stated "MU DOES NOT SINK" which the DB disagree with as that's the aim. When you submerge/immerse something in another, the thing is being dipped in it, hence being sinked inside. Google the meaning of submerge and that alone would help you "To place under the surface" and this is what it stated..I've told you that was the manga's way of showing us hence Gaara not showing signs or making anything clear to us that the sand was altered and for a fact if the use is to sink someone inside, the Onoki WOULD NOT be making the sand heavy as that's going against the use that's stated. If this was correct BEANS, then you'll definitely have a point. Sadly, you don't. Plus DB talks about being buried alive and we know someone sitting on top sand doesn't make them buried alive as to what the DB states when pointing out this panel. You have no point.

This alone Beans should completely shut you up because if it doesn't, then I feel for your thinking capacity...No seriously.

So you're using the fact that Gaara does NOT make a statement, to prove that it wasn't weighted..? Lol wow, ok. Maybe you could read between the lines and realize that
You must be registered for see links
because he realized how lightened sand could be applicable against the enemy whereas weighted sand would serve no purpose to him. No reason for him to make comment or be surprised at the weighted sand when he literally just witnessed Onoki using the weighted technique on Muu. In fact,
You must be registered for see links
page is just more evidence for me that the sand is weighted, because Gaara's sand moves more slowly when it's heavy. It took Gaara more than two panels to completely seal Muu, when we know he can
You must be registered for see links
in the span of a couple seconds with his normal-weight sand.

Yes..Because Gaara was a key factor due to him controlling the sand. If you're going to make a claim that's not backed up, then we have to consider multiple factors involved. Not even a facial expression to suggest a difference like when the sand was made light..Not even a word uttered to show that there was a change such as the sand being heavy. Gaara made a statement when he noticed how light the sand was..That was an indication to us. Onoki and Gaara both made it known to us even though we could as well see visibly the difference. Gaara here does not and so does Onoki and so does Naruto who doesn't know how the ability works hence no surprise at all to what was being done to the object. Nothing at all plus the DB referring to submerge/immerse and the buried alive point with this particular panel completely wrecks your point.

How many panels did he take the seal Madara lmao? No one cares but how many panels with a normal sand does he take to completely seal these guys?

You must be registered for see links

.

-Madara didn't sink into the sand that was comparatively lighter than him because Madara wasn't weighted therefore he had no reason to. The reason Muu partially sank into the sand is not because the sand was lighter than he was, it's because Muu was heavy.

Smh. Now you giving us your own reasoning to prove your point, Get lost. If the sand was made so light that Gaara himself wondered how according to you, then what reason would be there for him not to? But it's all good because I'm less bothered about this point.

-Cut the crap. "Manga's way of showing us Muu was weighted" doesn't even begin to explain away the fact that normal sand doesn't
You must be registered for see links
when a heavy object is placed on top of it.

Repetition of the same nonsense but I explained above.

-Don't know. Maybe since Onoki super-weighted Muu he had no control over the fact that the effects of the jutsu spread over to the surrounding grains of sand just a little (you can see the effects of the weight decrease the farther away the sand is from Muu, hence the crater.)

LMAOO you messed up big time here. You shouldn't have.

So Onoki super-weighted Mu so bad that he couldn't control the effects? Lmao oh man oh man only if you knew how many points this contradicts.

- If he has no control of the effects of his super weighted Jutsu, then explain to me why Gai and the others on the island regained their usual state when according to you the turtle was made super light? Why were they not made light? What about the others? You make no sense because if you're implying that his has no control over the effects his jutsu, then others around him would be affect regardless.

OH AND BEANS WHAT'S THISSSSSSSSS??????? ONOKI USING THE SUPER UTLRA WEIGHTED TECHNIUE ON HIS ARM WHICH IS IN CONTACT WITH THIS SUMMON BUT STILL HAVING TO ADD PRESSURE "GRRRRRRRRR" TO DESTROY IT. WHY WAS IT NOT WEIGHTED??? WHY DID THE EFFECT NOT SPREAD THROUGH?

You must be registered for see links

Lmao give up, you lost but you were always bound to with an argument that has no direction.

I put that in capital and bold so you definitely won't miss it.

Lol no, I addressed very clearly why Onoki didn't weigh down Muu through indirect contact with the ground which kills your contention of Onoki touching Muu as being "proof" that direct contact is needed.

You need to rethink this over again.

If lightened boulder can always undo weighted boulder, why did Onoki weigh down Muu knowing full well Muu could just cancel the effects by using lightened boulder on himself? Why didn't Muu just do that? Lol at the bold, nothing in any of the logic I used would imply that. Never said LB can't undo WB- just that if a powerful enough WB is used its effects can't always be immediately countered with the opposite jutsu.

Don't ask me question when you're formulating all types of ridiculous fictions. Maybe Onoki's IQ is pretty low seeing how he even forgot one of Mu's techniques but this doesn't concern me because you're coming up with the theory and all with 0 proof.

@bold You lie a lot. This was why you lost to Draegod because you say something first and then go ahead and deny it later when you're countered..You never even mentioned immediately(even though we know that nonsense is irrelevant as hell and you're only shocked because I straight up countered you with the Onoki/Ay point). What you said:

Another reason he used it directly on Muu is because the jutsu's effect weakens the further away the target is from the point of contact. Why do you think he decided to use weighted-boulder on Muu, knowing full well Muu could just counter its effects by lightening himself? Probably because he made Muu so heavy that he would have no way of canceling its effect even with LB. If he had just used it on the ground, its effect on Muu wouldn't have been so great.

"NO WAY"
Still gonna lie? Don't bother editing it, I'm taking a screenshot. Quit lying and no, prove to me that there's a time limit to which one can switch from being ultra light to being ultra heavy. Prove all these things you're stating.

....There's nothing for me to counter here, since you ignored a key piece of evidence. Since you ignored it, I'm assuming you have no counter. I'll write it here again:

Which is all irrelevant because even if Onoki did use LB directly on the desert floor, he only touched a few individual grains of sand yet the grains of sand below Madara's feet also got lightened despite Onoki not having been in direct contact with them.

Lmao same thing you've said all through.

LOL WTF. This is so totally irrelevant I don't even know why you even attributed this to be evidence that direct contact is needed for WB to work. Please connect the dots for me because I just don't see it. If Onoki doesn't know where his target is, he doesn't know where to direct his Doton chakra that he inserts into the earth. This should be phucking obvious, so stop saying that argument is weak. What the hell is the golem supposed to prove?

I'll drop this point but my other points would absolutely deal with this.

I'm starting to think you're right about the turtle island, partially right at least. It's because I thought up another explanation: Onoki lightened the turtle so much that it in fact was lighter than air, proof being that it floated up out of the ocean (unless you believe Onoki went underwater and pushed it up.) The objects on the island retained their normal weight, counterbalancing the lighter-than air turtle so that it didn't float away like a balloon, which is why Onoki still had to carry it.

Lmao no you KNOW I'm right. Not to mention there's every reason for us not to take you serious because you keep jumping from one assumption to another all because you want to prove this bad point as a fact. Give up because you clearly know this is a desperate attempt.

However you think but the fact that those people still regained their weight...Naruto shattering rocks up just touching it

You must be registered for see links

, B slicing rocks with his sword and his tail creating cut upon clashing with the ground

You must be registered for see links

. The shinobi's stating Onoki is ridiculous based on the fact that they should still have their normal weight as it was surprising to him despite knowing his ability, Onoki completely saying he needs more dang stress in his back and the Akatsuchi stating the ocean would have been easier "if he was carrying such light material I wonder why it would be easier after asking if he's okay. All in one panel

You must be registered for see links

. There's no way this people were affected but that dents your point seeing as you're stating he lightened everything(Even what he wasn't aware of there) in one go upon touching the island.

But there's no way in hell the bold happened.

For a fact there's no way this fiction ever happened in the Manga.

You know what? I don't know why Onoki didn't choose to weigh Madara down, and I don't have to know. That just wasn't their strategy. Their strategy was for Gaara to use the lightened sand at Madara's feet to whisk him out of Susanoo and then for Naruto to hit him with FRS.

It's not that you don't know but you have no explanation for it. Their strategy was definitely not for Gaara to use lightened sand to immobilize Susano'o. That's crap. How can they resort to such when Onoki can outright immobilize it with more power through touching the ground according to you? No sense here. One could have weighted it and let the lightened sand play it's normal role especially seeing as that takes nothing as you claim Onoki by just touching Gaara's gourd lightened the sand in an instant.

But, if you're not obligated to come up with a reasonable explanation as to how Onoki tagged 5 Susanoo clones off panel, then I'm sure as hell not obligated to come up with an answer to why Onoki went with this strategy.

Off panel feat is off paneled...Can you tell me how Madara survived their Weighted boulder technique since they can both touch the ground by doing it? Can you tell me how Madara beat both Mu and Onoki without PS despite Mu being able to go invisible. I can stubbornly go by the fact that the only way for him to beat Mu is if he can SEE him but off paneled is off panel and you have nothing but assumptions to say to me.

Not to mention Madara stated Onoki lightened Susano'o "..." and saved the Kage. I can argue that he lightened Susano'o through Golem's hand. but we didn't see how that happened. Not to mention Onoki is a small target for a legged Susano'o that can make humans look tiny

You must be registered for see links

. Plus the fact that he can fly make it hard for them to even hit him. He could have just gone round touching them with no problem. Either way, I have explanation which you need to debunk yourself but I'm sure as hell you can't at all come up with something reasonable.

This argument is dumb AF. Muu's invisibility jutsu is more than just chakra molding. It's literally chakra extinguishing, a skill that Itachi doesn't have so Muu being a sensor will pick up Itachi's location even if Itachi were invisible, which wouldn't happen in the first place given that DBC is a jutsu that takes a high degree of training to master (if it didn't, Muu wouldn't be the only user in history and hyped for his ability.) Not to mention Muu's gonna be invisible so how the hell is Itachi going to copy a jutsu he can't even see with his own sharingan?

Hey look, when you can counter my point in that group, come back here. But this is funny considering how I killed your last point and then you running to something else. Can't wait to see how Dumb AF you'll look instead.

Under the logic you're using, any jutsu ever can be copied by a sharingan user so long as it's not KKG and they have the correct chakra nature. That's completely ignoring the training, chakra control, and skill it takes to master a technique.

under the logic you're using right now:

-Sasuke could have just copied Ay's raiton armour with his sharingan
-Sasuke could have seen the chakra in Sakura's fist and copy it, allowing him to land earth shattering punches like she and Tsunade do

more examples but I don't feel like thinking up any more right now

More and more crap but who cares? I've responded to you on this in that group. When you reply, the I'll bother.

Not going to make this post any longer than necessary. The fact that you are resorting to "Amaterasu off the bat GG" shows that you're giving yourself an out because you know that I'm right about the main point of this debate which is if WB can be used with indirect contact. Concede that and I'll address this.

Lmao get your head out your ass...I said this in our last debate when you messaged saying you won't reply if I do. Not to mention Itachi has full intel and sure as hell can use this as a mean in other not to lose Mu. Stop crying...Multiple ways in which one can win a fight doesn't mean I'm conceding to a strategy.

Honestly didnt want to reply to this with all the insults you were throwing

I didn't insult you because I know how emotional you can get since you already called me out for not liking your posts(Big mistake since I can't play nice with someone that petty). I only mocked you silly reasoning of Mu being able to alter someone's weight by touching the ground LOL. Take it how you take it but I'm ready for anything.

Beans2 said:
Lol just stfu Nd respond, no need for unnecesary posts like this

EDIT: Lol Haizaki neg repped me for this post

You must be registered for see images

Bruh quit saying niguh, you white as hell plus it's offensive.

Lel I neg repped you to actually make you feel salty rather seeing how just disliking your post can get you all worked u. Plus don't tell me to stfu lmao...Also, LMFAO can't believe you actually called me white but I won't take offense to it because I'm not racist. Did you expect me to argue what race I am on the internet? Or did you expect me to go cray over it? Or to even care? Lmao. Also, why you getting all wet cuz I'm saying niguh? Calling it offensive like that shown who "white as hell" lmao.

Oh I'm salty now? Damn Meek you forgot what happened some days ago? You calling me out for disliking/not liking your shid and this shows you not salty when it comes to me?

"You always are disliking my posts without posting in the thread and you know like lowkey (really low key) I was getting my feelings hurt because I respect you smh. Because tards dislike my posts all the time but idc because theyre tards. But when Haizaki dislikes my posts I start feeling some type of way. So yeah what I said wasn't even meant to be taken so serious but an explanation is all I'm looking for."

Lmao how you gonna disrespect me and start trying to say you "respect me"? Keep it real please and I cannot rock with this style or respect such an individual who calls me out and claims he got respect for me smh.

Beans2 · Jan 22, 2016

Haizaki, I've noticed that throughout this discussion you've chosen to ignore a key piece of evidence, and every time I bring it up you don't address it. I'll write it again here:

Which is all irrelevant because even if Onoki did use LB directly on the desert floor, he only touched a few individual grains of sand yet the grains of sand below Madara's feet also got lightened despite Onoki not having been in direct contact with them.

The first time I brought up this point, this is what you said:

Haizaki said:
Lmao we've had enough. Not to mention why were the others in contact with the ground not lightened? Let's see how get contradicted later on.

Which doesn't explain how the sand beneath Madara's feet got lightened if direct contact is needed for LB to work, since Onoki didn't touch that sand.

When I said the same thing in my next post, this is all you said:

Haizaki said:
Lmao same thing you've said all through.

So Haizaki. Stop dodging the question. How did the sand beneath Madara's feet get lightened if LB needs direct contact? A desert is composed of billions and billions of tiny sand grains. Even if Onoki directly touched the desert, his actual hands only made contact with a relatively small number of grains of sand...yet the grains of sand which grabbed Madara's arm

You must be registered for see links

were also lightened. This is manga proof that LB doesn't need direct contact between the user and the target for it to take effect, proof that you've ignored literally this entire time. So counter this evidence and I'll reply to your last post, or concede the debate.

Haizaki · Jan 22, 2016

Beans2 said:
Haizaki, I've noticed that throughout this discussion you've chosen to ignore a key piece of evidence, and every time I bring it up you don't address it. I'll write it again here:

The first time I brought up this point, this is what you said:

Which doesn't explain how the sand beneath Madara's feet got lightened if direct contact is needed for LB to work, since Onoki didn't touch that sand.

When I said the same thing in my next post, this is all you said:

So Haizaki. Stop dodging the question. How did the sand beneath Madara's feet get lightened if LB needs direct contact? A desert is composed of billions and billions of tiny sand grains. Even if Onoki directly touched the desert, his actual hands only made contact with a relatively small number of grains of sand...yet the grains of sand which grabbed Madara's arm
You must be registered for see links
were also lightened. This is manga proof that LB doesn't need direct contact between the user and the target for it to take effect, proof that you've ignored literally this entire time. So counter this evidence and I'll reply to your last post, or concede the debate.

It's either:

- He already made the sand beforehand lightened.

- The sand used to actually pull Madara out wasn't lightened.

- Gaara managed to have the lightened sand travel through the normal sand which pulled Madara.

- Look at the bottom right here

You must be registered for see links

..Gaara's sand traveling for an obvious reason otherwise there won't be any need. What was it doing? Why the need when everywhere was made light? Not to mention that lightened sand restricted Susano'o? Why didn't Onoki just immobilize it with WB since he can apparently pass it through the ground? Than make lightened sand do it?

Even so, Onoki was close to Gaara or at least flying round the place. He even made contact with the ground and could have slipped it for example like here

You must be registered for see links

. Not to mention Gaara utilizing sand to help Onoki against the meteor? Lightened sand? If not, when was it made normal when there wasn't anything showing so. By your logic, because Onoki was never shown making the sand heavy, Gaara's sand retained being light all through unless you can show me where that happened. Clearly off paneled.

Not to mention your logic isn't good because you're arguing Gaara was the one in contact with the ground...Let me ask you this, how did Onoki manage to make the sand Gaara was standing on lightened by touching Gaara's gourd but somehow Gaara himself who's the person in direct contact not getting lightened? How? Not possible or you treat the sand as a single collective unit. There are several misinterpretation or unexplained things that happened off panel, like how Madara and Hashirama seemed to have been caught up in the BD's of the Ten Tails. Nobody claiming that because it makes no sense and would clearly be known as something that happened which we didn't see. Just like Onoki's case here and we know for a fact that things have occurred that shows he for sure can't do this.

Beans2 · Jan 22, 2016

Last post.

Haizaki said:
I saw you low-key trying to concede to that turtle Island point but just can't cause you know you gonna feel silly.

I conceded that point straight up. Nothing lowkey about it.

Haizaki said:
The bold doesn't relate to the DB not making the mechanics of the Jutsu known to us. You came up with something known as a theory not backed up. "I also made the sand around here light" could have been based on the fact that he did it off panel. So no, that's not something to rely on especially when there are things that go against it not being made know. What's garbage is how you bring up the fact that the DB did not list a user being able to use it but then relate that to the mechanics of the Jutsu not being explained by the DB. Trash. That's a very important factor that should never be left out especially if a message is being sent across to the viewers.

It's not a theory, and it's backed up by the manga. Manga panels show Onoki lightening an area of the desert with which he didn't make direct contact with, therefore direct contact isn't necessarily needed. It's really that simple. If the Databook doesn't include that detail of the jutsu, or it contradicts with the manga, then I'm going to go with what the manga showed every time. The fact that Muu isn't listed as a user of LB/WB in the Databook just throws into question the credibility of DB entries making them less credible than manga panels. The fact that the mechanics of the jutsu are different from who is listed as a user is irrelevant to my point as it still proves that what the manga shows can't be disregarded based on a Databoook entry.

Haizaki said:
Plus Onoki also had this in mind so it's no surprise of him making the area lighter. He didn't plan with Gaara beforehand but he just ran to his back and used the Jutsu and then told him he also made the area lighter. Please let's be serious with this weak points.

This helps your argument...how? :lol.

Haizaki said:
Nobody cosigns this attempt. Manga didn't but you really forcing this bad point hard. Not to mention the fact that he somehow made the area lighter but somehow left the alliance who were in contact with it makes this point laughable seeing as you claimed he made everyone on that that turtle island lightened by just touching the turtle and claiming that he made the sand lighter by just touching Mu or the power was so great that sand got affected somehow lmao.

The alliance who were touching the desert didn't get lightened because Onoki wasn't trying to lighten them, and I already conceded the turtle island point.

Haizaki said:
No you need to actually read and understand what I'm saying. The use of the sand is to immerse the user IN IT as stated right there in the DB. Making it heavy doesn't actually make the user immerse in it and you know that's what you stating too because you stated "MU DOES NOT SINK" which the DB disagree with as that's the aim. When you submerge/immerse something in another, the thing is being dipped in it, hence being sinked inside. Google the meaning of submerge and that alone would help you "To place under the surface" and this is what it stated..I've told you that was the manga's way of showing us hence Gaara not showing signs or making anything clear to us that the sand was altered and for a fact if the use is to sink someone inside, the Onoki WOULD NOT be making the sand heavy as that's going against the use that's stated. If this was correct BEANS, then you'll definitely have a point. Sadly, you don't. Plus DB talks about being buried alive and we know someone sitting on top sand doesn't make them buried alive as to what the DB states when pointing out this panel. You have no point.

This alone Beans should completely shut you up because if it doesn't, then I feel for your thinking capacity...No seriously.

I'm going to have to break this down sentence by sentence, because you're hysterical and this is getting out of hand.

Haizaki said:
No you need to actually read and understand what I'm saying. The use of the sand is to immerse the user IN IT as stated right there in the DB.

Yep.

Haizaki said:
Making it heavy doesn't actually make the user immerse in it and you know that's what you stating too because you stated "MU DOES NOT SINK" which the DB disagree with as that's the aim.

-Prove the bold.
-The underlined is actually correct, even though I never outright stated that in any of my posts. Muu didn't sink into the desert.

Haizaki said:
When you submerge/immerse something in another, the thing is being dipped in it, hence being sinked inside. Google the meaning of submerge and that alone would help you "To place under the surface" and this is what it stated

Submerge and immerse mean different things, but yeah, I know what you're saying.

Haizaki said:
I've told you that was the manga's way of showing us hence Gaara not showing signs or making anything clear to us that the sand was altered and for a fact if the use is to sink someone inside, the Onoki WOULD NOT be making the sand heavy as that's going against the use that's stated.

Wrong. The fact that Gaara didn't make it explicitly clear with a statement that the sand wasn't altered doesn't constitute as proof that the sand was not altered. @Red Muu wasn't immersed in the sand nor did he sink even though the DB says that's the purpose of the jutsu, which indicates the surrounding sand was weighted thus formed a crater, so that's just another piece of evidence added to the mountain of proof that WB doesn't need direct contact to take effect.

Haizaki said:
If this was correct BEANS, then you'll definitely have a point. Sadly, you don't. Plus DB talks about being buried alive and we know someone sitting on top sand doesn't make them buried alive as to what the DB states when pointing out this panel. You have no point.

So the DB shows a picture of Muu sitting on top of sand in a crater, but the caption says the user can easily bury the enemy alive. Hmmmmmm. Wonder how that helps your argument? Oh wait, it doesn't, because it contradicts literally everything you said about the target being immersed in sand because immersed means "

You must be registered for see links

". :lol. It actually helps mine. If the surrounding sand hadn't been weighted down, then Muu actually would have been immersed in the desert because there would be no crater.

You must be registered for see images

And notice how you still haven't been able to explain why there's a crater around Muu per your argument, even though craters don't appear when you place a heavy object on top of sand. The obvious explanation is that the surrounding sand got weighted down too, and its effect gradually lessened with each individual grain of sand the farther away it is from Muu. But hey, if you want to turn a blind eye to facts then it's not my job to educate you.

Haizaki said:
This alone Beans should completely shut you up because if it doesn't, then I feel for your thinking capacity...No seriously.

After reading that barely coherent paragraph you just typed, I'm starting to feel for yours.

Haizaki said:
Yes..Because Gaara was a key factor due to him controlling the sand. If you're going to make a claim that's not backed up, then we have to consider multiple factors involved. Not even a facial expression to suggest a difference like when the sand was made light..Not even a word uttered to show that there was a change such as the sand being heavy. Gaara made a statement when he noticed how light the sand was..That was an indication to us. Onoki and Gaara both made it known to us even though we could as well see visibly the difference. Gaara here does not and so does Onoki and so does Naruto who doesn't know how the ability works hence no surprise at all to what was being done to the object. Nothing at all plus the DB referring to submerge/immerse and the buried alive point with this particular panel completely wrecks your point.

How many panels did he take the seal Madara lmao? No one cares but how many panels with a normal sand does he take to completely seal these guys?
You must be registered for see links
.

Can't believe you're actually arguing this point. THE FACT THAT GAARA DIDN'T MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE SAND BEING ALTERED DOESN'T CONSTITUTE AS PROOF THAT THE SAND WASN'T ALTERED. I can literally copy and paste what I said to you in my last post:

Gaara only made a statement
You must be registered for see links
because he realized how lightened sand could be applicable against the enemy whereas weighted sand would serve no purpose to him. No reason for him to make comment or be surprised at the weighted sand when he literally just witnessed Onoki using the weighted technique on Muu.

Just so you get it through your skull:

You must be registered for see images

When Onoki made sand heavy:

-Gaara just saw him use the weighted boulder jutsu on Muu.
-The weighted sand made no difference in the outcome of the fight.
-Gaara had no reason to make a comment or change his facial expression.

When Onoki made Gaara's sand light:

-Gaara wasn't expecting it.
-Gaara made an observation how it could help against the enemy.
-It shows the reader that the fact that the sand was light was a key part of taking Madara down.

So your comparison between the two instances in which Gaara's sand was altered fails completely here and thus so does your overarching point.

Haizaki said:
Smh. Now you giving us your own reasoning to prove your point, Get lost. If the sand was made so light that Gaara himself wondered how according to you, then what reason would be there for him not to? But it's all good because I'm less bothered about this point.

Just because the weight of the sand is reduced doesn't mean it's any less compacted or a person standing on it is gonna sink through it like quicksand. It's not my own reasoning, it's physics.

Haizaki said:
Repetition of the same nonsense but I explained above.

Wonder why you keep dodging all my main points and replying with one liners instead? Tell me Haizaki, why did a crater form around Muu if only Muu was weighted? Even though placing something heavy on top of sand never has and never will create a crater? You're going to have to come up with a real explanation, or at least something better than "that's the manga's way of showing Muu was weighted." Smfh.

Haizaki said:
LMAOO you messed up big time here. You shouldn't have.

So Onoki super-weighted Mu so bad that he couldn't control the effects? Lmao oh man oh man only if you knew how many points this contradicts.

- If he has no control of the effects of his super weighted Jutsu, then explain to me why Gai and the others on the island regained their usual state when according to you the turtle was made super light? Why were they not made light? What about the others? You make no sense because if you're implying that his has no control over the effects his jutsu, then others around him would be affect regardless.

Well now that I think about it, I have a better explanation: the reason Muu couldn't undo the technique was because that was a fission body at half power and can't undo a WB from a full powered Onoki. Onoki didn't know this, but he did know that Naruto had just put three holes in him so Muu was in no condition to use jutsu. So that's why he used WB on an opponent with LB.

Haizaki said:
OH AND BEANS WHAT'S THISSSSSSSSS??????? ONOKI USING THE SUPER UTLRA WEIGHTED TECHNIUE ON HIS ARM WHICH IS IN CONTACT WITH THIS SUMMON BUT STILL HAVING TO ADD PRESSURE "GRRRRRRRRR" TO DESTROY IT. WHY WAS IT NOT WEIGHTED??? WHY DID THE EFFECT NOT SPREAD THROUGH?
You must be registered for see links
Lmao give up, you lost but you were always bound to with an argument that has no direction.

I put that in capital and bold so you definitely won't miss it.

This is how I know I am arguing with a moron. Onoki's goal was never to use weighted boulder on the clam as that would have accomplished nothing, his goal was to destroy it which he did by applying force with a heavy punch. Force=mass x acceleration. If Onoki didn't add pressure then acceleration would be zero, so no matter how heavy his fist is, anything multiplied by zero is still zero so no phucking shit he had to apply force. This has nothing to do with our argument in the first place. The reason the clam didn't get weighted is because Onoki wasn't trying to weight it.

Haizaki said:
You need to rethink this over again.

It was your point to begin with, I just killed it so your loss.

Haizaki said:
Don't ask me question when you're formulating all types of ridiculous fictions. Maybe Onoki's IQ is pretty low seeing how he even forgot one of Mu's techniques but this doesn't concern me because you're coming up with the theory and all with 0 proof.

"Maybe Onoki's IQ is pretty low..." I FUKN DIED.

Haizaki said:
@bold You lie a lot. This was why you lost to Draegod

Lol nice attempt at trying to make me salty, not gonna work though.

Haizaki said:
because you say something first and then go ahead and deny it later when you're countered..You never even mentioned immediately(even though we know that nonsense is irrelevant as hell and you're only shocked because I straight up countered you with the Onoki/Ay point). What you said:

:lol you conceded the Ay/Onoki point. So you definitely didn't "straight up counter me" with that.

Haizaki said:
"NO WAY"
Still gonna lie? Don't bother editing it, I'm taking a screenshot. Quit lying and no, prove to me that there's a time limit to which one can switch from being ultra light to being ultra heavy. Prove all these things you're stating.

Um, I don't see where I contradicted myself? I've been saying the same thing this whole time until this post when I realized it was a fission Muu. Irrelevant to the argument anyway, moving on.

Haizaki said:
Lmao same thing you've said all through.

Stop dodging questions and replying with one liners. You've been ignoring my key points this entire debate, like:

-Why there was a crater around Muu.
-How the sand around Madara got lightened even though Onoki didn't touch those individual grains.

It was only because I made an extra post calling you out on it that I finally got a response, but I'll counter that later on.

Haizaki said:
I'll drop this point but my other points would absolutely deal with this.

Good.

Haizaki said:
Lmao no you KNOW I'm right. Not to mention there's every reason for us not to take you serious because you keep jumping from one assumption to another all because you want to prove this bad point as a fact. Give up because you clearly know this is a desperate attempt.

However you think but the fact that those people still regained their weight...Naruto shattering rocks up just touching it
You must be registered for see links
, B slicing rocks with his sword and his tail creating cut upon clashing with the ground
You must be registered for see links
. The shinobi's stating Onoki is ridiculous based on the fact that they should still have their normal weight as it was surprising to him despite knowing his ability, Onoki completely saying he needs more dang stress in his back and the Akatsuchi stating the ocean would have been easier "if he was carrying such light material I wonder why it would be easier after asking if he's okay. All in one panel
You must be registered for see links
. There's no way this people were affected but that dents your point seeing as you're stating he lightened everything(Even what he wasn't aware of there) in one go upon touching the island.

I conceded the turtle island point in my last post, so you wasted your time with this paragraph.

Haizaki said:
For a fact there's no way this fiction ever happened in the Manga.

This whole manga is a piece of fiction buddy.

Haizaki said:
It's not that you don't know but you have no explanation for it. Their strategy was definitely not for Gaara to use lightened sand to immobilize Susano'o. That's crap. How can they resort to such when Onoki can outright immobilize it with more power through touching the ground according to you? No sense here. One could have weighted it and let the lightened sand play it's normal role especially seeing as that takes nothing as you claim Onoki by just touching Gaara's gourd lightened the sand in an instant.

@Bold- what do you call this then?

You must be registered for see links

I don't need to explain Onoki's motives. Neither do you, which is why you didn't answer me when I asked you why Onoki used WB on an opponent who had LB. It's a two way street kiddo. Their strategy was to whisk Madara out of Susanoo with the lightened sand at Madara's feet, then for Naruto to hit him with FRS. That's what they came up with on the spot. For some reason or another Onoki didn't use a different strategy which involved WB.

Haizaki said:
Off panel feat is off paneled...Can you tell me how Madara survived their Weighted boulder technique since they can both touch the ground by doing it?

They must not have used it, or have mastered it at that time.

Haizaki said:
Can you tell me how Madara beat both Mu and Onoki without PS despite Mu being able to go invisible.

Giant katon in the enclosed location which they were in would have one shotted.

Haizaki said:
I can stubbornly go by the fact that the only way for him to beat Mu is if he can SEE him but off paneled is off panel and you have nothing but assumptions to say to me.

At least I have an assumption. You have nothing because any other explanation doesn't make sense. BTW, if you really think direct contact is needed for WB to work...

You must be registered for see links

How come the clone Madaras inside their Susanoos were also weighted down, if Onoki only made contact with their Susanoos? If the clones themselves weren't weighted down, then they would have just deactivated Susanoo, manifested Susanoo again and continued battling.

Haizaki said:
Not to mention Madara stated Onoki lightened Susano'o "..." and saved the Kage. I can argue that he lightened Susano'o through Golem's hand. but we didn't see how that happened. Not to mention Onoki is a small target for a legged Susano'o that can make humans look tiny
You must be registered for see links
. Plus the fact that he can fly make it hard for them to even hit him. He could have just gone round touching them with no problem. Either way, I have explanation which you need to debunk yourself but I'm sure as hell you can't at all come up with something reasonable.

I'm assuming you meant to say "weighted" instead of "lightened"? I'm laughing right now...the explanation you gave (which I bolded) would involve indirect contact w/ WB since the golem itself can't use WB so Onoki doing it through the golem to Susanoo would still be indirect contact. The underline is an even worse argument, because each one of those wood clones has EMS and would track Onoki and swat him down with Susanoo swords the moment he tries to come close, let alone the fact that the Susanoo clones are watching each others backs and the four others would gang bang him even if he managed to tag even one. If you're doubting EMS' tracking capabilities, refer to how EMS Sasuke tagged Juubito and forced him to block instead of dodge. Granted, EMS Sasuke has better precog than a 1/25th power Edo Madara wood clone, but Juubito is much much much much faster than Onoki.

Not to mention coming close to Susanoo makes him

You must be registered for see links

but he was never caught.

Haizaki said:
Hey look, when you can counter my point in that group, come back here. But this is funny considering how I killed your last point and then you running to something else. Can't wait to see how Dumb AF you'll look instead.

More and more crap but who cares? I've responded to you on this in that group. When you reply, the I'll bother.

Sharingan can't see Muu thus Itachi can't copy a jutsu he literally can't see with his own eyes so that trashes your whole phucking argument.

Haizaki said:
Lmao get your head out your ass...I said this in our last debate when you messaged saying you won't reply if I do. Not to mention Itachi has full intel and sure as hell can use this as a mean in other not to lose Mu. Stop crying...Multiple ways in which one can win a fight doesn't mean I'm conceding to a strategy.

Your sentence structure is terrible.

Haizaki said:
I didn't insult you because I know how emotional you can get since you already called me out for not liking your posts(Big mistake since I can't play nice with someone that petty). I only mocked you silly reasoning of Mu being able to alter someone's weight by touching the ground LOL. Take it how you take it but I'm ready for anything.

Petty enough to neg rep you and call you a ni****? Nah, that's just you.

Haizaki said:
Lel I neg repped you to actually make you feel salty rather seeing how just disliking your post can get you all worked u. Plus don't tell me to stfu lmao...Also, LMFAO can't believe you actually called me white but I won't take offense to it because I'm not racist. Did you expect me to argue what race I am on the internet? Or did you expect me to go cray over it? Or to even care? Lmao. Also, why you getting all wet cuz I'm saying niguh? Calling it offensive like that shown who "white as hell" lmao.

You shouldn't go around the internet calling people ni****s regardless of what race you are, but hey that's just my opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Haizaki said:
Oh I'm salty now? Damn Meek you forgot what happened some days ago? You calling me out for disliking/not liking your shid and this shows you not salty when it comes to me?

"You always are disliking my posts without posting in the thread and you know like lowkey (really low key) I was getting my feelings hurt because I respect you smh. Because tards dislike my posts all the time but idc because theyre tards. But when Haizaki dislikes my posts I start feeling some type of way. So yeah what I said wasn't even meant to be taken so serious but an explanation is all I'm looking for."

Lmao how you gonna disrespect me and start trying to say you "respect me"? Keep it real please and I cannot rock with this style or respect such an individual who calls me out and claims he got respect for me smh.

I pity you and the seriousness with which you take NB. I don't give a damn what happened in another thread. You're trying to make it personal and it's not, not for me at least. I'm just facepalming at what you've been posting here. At the beginning of this thread you said you'd "take anyone on and vow not to lose" but you took your vow too damn serious to the point where you're turning a blind eye to manga facts lmao. But this next part should prove my point beyond reasonable doubt.

Haizaki said:
It's either:

- He already made the sand beforehand lightened.

Not possible because Onoki would have had to be right inside Susanoo to do it.

Haizaki said:
- The sand used to actually pull Madara out wasn't lightened.

Doesn't make sense because if Gaara could pull him out with regular sand he would have done so much earlier and not needing Onoki to lighten it, when manga makes it clear the reason their strategy was succesful was because the sand was lightened. Lightened sand is fast enough to snag Madara's arm before he reacts, whereas normal sand isn't otherwse Gaara woud have done just that earlier.

Haizaki said:
- Gaara managed to have the lightened sand travel through the normal sand which pulled Madara.

He couldn't have done it in that time frame because Gaara's lightened sand (

You must be registered for see links

) reached Susanoo at the same time that the sand underneath Madara reached his arm. Unless you think Gaara can make his lightened sand travel through the desert just as fast as his lightened sand can travel through the air.

Haizaki said:
- Look at the bottom right here
You must be registered for see links
..Gaara's sand traveling for an obvious reason otherwise there won't be any need. What was it doing? Why the need when everywhere was made light? Not to mention that lightened sand restricted Susano'o? Why didn't Onoki just immobilize it with WB since he can apparently pass it through the ground? Than make lightened sand do it?

You must be registered for see links

That was Gaara's gourd sand in the bottom right. You can clearly see it touch Susanoo in the next panel, either to restrain it or to distract Madara.

Haizaki said:
Even so, Onoki was close to Gaara or at least flying round the place. He even made contact with the ground and could have slipped it for example like here
You must be registered for see links
. Not to mention Gaara utilizing sand to help Onoki against the meteor? Lightened sand? If not, when was it made normal when there wasn't anything showing so. By your logic, because Onoki was never shown making the sand heavy, Gaara's sand retained being light all through unless you can show me where that happened. Clearly off paneled.

Not to mention your logic isn't good because you're arguing Gaara was the one in contact with the ground...Let me ask you this, how did Onoki manage to make the sand Gaara was standing on lightened by touching Gaara's gourd but somehow Gaara himself who's the person in direct contact not getting lightened? How? Not possible or you treat the sand as a single collective unit. There are several misinterpretation or unexplained things that happened off panel, like how Madara and Hashirama seemed to have been caught up in the BD's of the Ten Tails. Nobody claiming that because it makes no sense and would clearly be known as something that happened which we didn't see. Just like Onoki's case here and we know for a fact that things have occurred that shows he for sure can't do this.

I stopped arguing long ago that Onoki only touched Gaara's gourd sand to lighten the desert sand, which is why I said this:

even if Onoki did use LB directly on the desert floor, he only touched a few individual grains of sand yet the grains of sand below Madara's feet also got lightened despite Onoki not having been in direct contact with them.

Onoki must have made the sand normal weight again before Gaara used it to assist against the meteor.

But I'm not done. There's more evidence.

You must be registered for see links

Onoki only touches Gaara's gourd, but all the grains of sand inside got lightened though Onoki didn't touch them? Hmmmmmmmmm. But I thought LB needed direct contact to work? Or does it? Then look at the sheer scale of the sand which was lightened.

You must be registered for see links

(top panel)

If LB could only be established through direct contact like you're saying, then this is the total amount of sand Onoki would be able to lighten at a time if he used both hands:

You must be registered for see images

Yet billions and billions of grains of sand were lightened when he only touched a couple thousand...

Deadlift · Jan 22, 2016

Itachi cancels him

Lord Tywin · Jan 22, 2016

It took me a good 5 seconds to scroll past a post.

Haizaki · Jan 22, 2016

Beans2 said:
Last post.

I see you conceded to that Sharingan post. Let's get real with this bad strategy.

It's not a theory, and it's backed up by the manga. Manga panels show Onoki lightening an area of the desert with which he didn't make direct contact with, therefore direct contact isn't necessarily needed. It's really that simple. If the Databook doesn't include that detail of the jutsu, or it contradicts with the manga, then I'm going to go with what the manga showed every time. The fact that Muu isn't listed as a user of LB/WB in the Databook just throws into question the credibility of DB entries making them less credible than manga panels. The fact that the mechanics of the jutsu are different from who is listed as a user is irrelevant to my point as it still proves that what the manga shows can't be disregarded based on a Databoook entry.

Manga never, ever showed Onoki lightening the desert panel especially when you stated this:

"I stopped arguing long ago that Onoki only touched Gaara's gourd sand to lighten the desert sand, which is why I said this"

Now tell me when Onoki was actually shown using the Jutsu on the ground? You don't know but at the same time, you cannot conclude that Onoki through Gaara's gourd made the sand lightened.(Hope I don't have to explain to you again why as you conceded). Now when??

What if the position Madara was got lightened before then? You have no answer except come up with all sorts of rubbish explanations as to why this is a strategy that makes 0 sense. What makes it worse is that you have nothing else to back you up.

This helps your argument...how? :lol.

We ll apparently the others have common sense and know Onoki was the one from the start who opted to make Gaara's sand lightened so it's no surprise that he already made that area Madara was lightened if anything. He had this in mind so he could have slipped it in already.

The alliance who were touching the desert didn't get lightened because Onoki wasn't trying to lighten them, and I already conceded the turtle island point.

Good..Nice to know you finally state you concede that point. Please it makes 0 sense that Onoki's lightening an area can have the technique spread across a huge range but then people in contact with the technique traveling won't get affected. Listen, if the sand isn't treated a collective unit but then you claim there's traveling of an ability based on that fact that others are in contact with an object, then no matter what, they'll be affected.

I'm going to have to break this down sentence by sentence, because you're hysterical and this is getting out of hand.

What's getting out of hand is the way you think.

-Prove the bold.

Read what's stated by the DB I showed you:

"The user can make use of a type desert region to easily bury the enemy alive by immersing it in the sand."

We're all not dumb and have a brain to use...When you bury something/someone alive, they don't remain on the surface. What makes this worse is the fact that this particular panel of Mu getting weighted is shown to us by the DB when this is made implying that there's 0 reason to believe that the sand got weighted which definitely would mean Mu's not being buried.

-The underlined is actually correct, even though I never outright stated that in any of my posts. Muu didn't sink into the desert.

You're better off conceding this entire point.

Submerge and immerse mean different things, but yeah, I know what you're saying.

Just concede LOL.

Wrong. The fact that Gaara didn't make it explicitly clear with a statement that the sand wasn't altered doesn't constitute as proof that the sand was not altered. @Red Muu wasn't immersed in the sand nor did he sink even though the DB says that's the purpose of the jutsu, which indicates the surrounding sand was weighted thus formed a crater, so that's just another piece of evidence added to the mountain of proof that WB doesn't need direct contact to take effect.

Uhh no? The fact that he didn't make it a minus based on the fact that you have less supporting your point. Like it was made noted before. If that was normal sand, then Mu without a doubt would have sinked in. He would have been buried alive. That was the aim but now I'm starting to think it wasn't even normal sand.

So the DB shows a picture of Muu sitting on top of sand in a crater, but the caption says the user can easily bury the enemy alive. Hmmmmmm. Wonder how that helps your argument? Oh wait, it doesn't, because it contradicts literally everything you said about the target being immersed in sand because immersed means "
You must be registered for see links
". :lol. It actually helps mine. If the surrounding sand hadn't been weighted down, then Muu actually would have been immersed in the desert because there would be no crater.

You must be registered for see images

And notice how you still haven't been able to explain why there's a crater around Muu per your argument, even though craters don't appear when you place a heavy object on top of sand. The obvious explanation is that the surrounding sand got weighted down too, and its effect gradually lessened with each individual grain of sand the farther away it is from Muu. But hey, if you want to turn a blind eye to facts then it's not my job to educate you.

Things to consider here:

- Buried Alive..In normal sand without a doubt one is supposed to sink in normal sand. Immerse means one should be completely covered in it? Correct ? Now what's up with what happened in the Manga though?

Mu traveling obviously would never leave the sand on equal level first of all.

You must be registered for see images

When Onoki weighs down Mu:

You must be registered for see images

What are those in red? Rocky materials upon Mu getting weighted? The arrow and symbol showing the impact to the ground upon Mu getting weighted. If the sand or so was getting weighted to, that should have never ever happened.

DB uses immerse and buried alive being the role sand plays in this and it uses the scan of Mu as an example. Plus we know make the sand heavy doesn't help one being buried alive so Onoki would never ever do that based on the use of this Jutsu as stated. No argument here. Also should the remaining sand even flow inside that crater made if it's as normal as you make it seem. Not to mention your anime which you refer us to says the same:

Fast forward to 1:28

You must be registered for see links

Oh and LMFAO what happened to this:

Don't know. Maybe since Onoki super-weighted Muu he had no control over the fact that the effects of the jutsu spread over to the surrounding grains of sand just a little (you can see the effects of the weight decrease the farther away the sand is from Muu, hence the crater.)

LOOOOOOOOL.

After reading that barely coherent paragraph you just typed, I'm starting to feel for yours.

Nah you a joke to me at this point.

Can't believe you're actually arguing this point. THE FACT THAT GAARA DIDN'T MAKE A STATEMENT ABOUT THE SAND BEING ALTERED DOESN'T CONSTITUTE AS PROOF THAT THE SAND WASN'T ALTERED. I can literally copy and paste what I said to you in my last post:

CANT BELIEVE YOU'RE STILL HERE PROVING TO US YOU'RE A MORON. If what you said was factual, then it would have been made known...There 0 signs of this so GTFOH.

Just so you get it through your skull:

You must be registered for see images

When Onoki made sand heavy:

-Gaara just saw him use the weighted boulder jutsu on Muu.
-The weighted sand made no difference in the outcome of the fight.
-Gaara had no reason to make a comment or change his facial expression.

When Onoki made Gaara's sand light:

-Gaara wasn't expecting it.
-Gaara made an observation how it could help against the enemy.
-It shows the reader that the fact that the sand was light was a key part of taking Madara down.

So your comparison between the two instances in which Gaara's sand was altered fails completely here and thus so does your overarching point.

- You claim Gaara was expecting the sand to be light but wasn't expecting the sand to be heavy. Based on what? Gaara saw his gourd being touched and heard Onoki call the Jutsu name. What else you want? Not to mention Gaara was told that the sand was made light and if truly Gaara was aware of Onoki's ability to pass the technique around, why would he be told or even be so surprised? But somehow Onoki didn't feel the need to make it known that the sand was made heavy. Matter of FACT? WHY WAS THE SAND MADE HEAVY IN THE FIRST PLACE WHEN THE MAIN AIM WAS TO COVER UP MU?? Or rather, why was the sand made less heavy when the MAIN AIM WAS TO PREVENT MU FROM SINKING? Why didn't it balance out so that Mu is left normal on the sand without falling at all? Make no sense.

My point here is the fact that there's always an indication when these things happen. Here you have nothing except a whole lot of assumptions.

Just because the weight of the sand is reduced doesn't mean it's any less compacted or a person standing on it is gonna sink through it like quicksand. It's not my own reasoning, it's physics.

I'll leave this but this is terrible seeing how Gaara outright stated how light it was according to you. If it was that light then I have 0 reasons to believe why one won't at least sink. Based on there fact that it became so light that one becomes very heavy on it just like you're claiming Mu should have sunk through because he became so heavy.

Wonder why you keep dodging all my main points and replying with one liners instead? Tell me Haizaki, why did a crater form around Muu if only Muu was weighted? Even though placing something heavy on top of sand never has and never will create a crater? You're going to have to come up with a real explanation, or at least something better than "that's the manga's way of showing Muu was weighted." Smfh.

Addressed clown. For a fact I know something unknown happened but to say he weighted the sand which Gaara casually used to seal Mu is blatant nonsense. Especially with nothing string backing this up. Not to mention, Onoki should actually be making the sand heavy enough to prevent Mu from sinking and not less heavy where Mu pushes it down enough.

Well now that I think about it, I have a better explanation: the reason Muu couldn't undo the technique was because that was a fission body at half power and can't undo a WB from a full powered Onoki. Onoki didn't know this, but he did know that Naruto had just put three holes in him so Muu was in no condition to use jutsu. So that's why he used WB on an opponent with LB.

The only thing half Mu probably cannot use is Jinton. He could summon Madara, take flight which requires the LB and attempt to use Jinton. DB explicitly makes it clear that Jinton is the only thing he cannot use.

If however you're trying to argue that because he was half the power of his original self, then the technique was halved then you need some serious proof of that seeing as even with the LB, he could still take flight. Nothing at all implies such so what you're saying is a massive assumption with no proof. The technique remains the same so there's no such as a "full powered Onoki" being a difference as that makes 0 sense when clones are capable of using technique that match the original. Though if this is the case that variations of the technique indeed exists, then you have to accept the fact that Onoki's feat=/=Mu.

Plus I can argue the difference between a Super weighted technique vs a Normal weighted technique. Onoki used a normal weighted technique on Mu so he could have just countered with a Super lightened technique if his power wasn't at full. Lmao Naruto putting 3 holes on a dead body before don't mean much or didn't mean he couldn't use his technique when in pain people can still use techniques let alone a dead body

You must be registered for see links

This is how I know I am arguing with a moron. Onoki's goal was never to use weighted boulder on the clam as that would have accomplished nothing, his goal was to destroy it which he did by applying force with a heavy punch. Force=mass x acceleration. If Onoki didn't add pressure then acceleration would be zero, so no matter how heavy his fist is, anything multiplied by zero is still zero so no phucking shit he had to apply force. This has nothing to do with our argument in the first place. The reason the clam didn't get weighted is because Onoki wasn't trying to weight it.

No this marks it all..Anyone who believe you're educated has to be stupid as well. Read what you posted...I would put in in any sort of color and in the highest font size possible so you can know you're dumb...Then you would realize why I replied to you with that...Read what you said here:

-Don't know. Maybe since Onoki super-weighted Muu he had no control over the fact that the effects of the jutsu spread over to the surrounding grains of sand just a little (you can see the effects of the weight decrease the farther away the sand is from Muu, hence the crater.)

Now I know you're retarded...Very daft because YOU JUST SAID HE HAD NO CONTROL OVER THE EFFECTS of the Jutsu's spread. Hence why I countered saying if he had not effects over the control of his super weighted Jutsu, why did the clam not get weighted because Onoki who was superweigted? You're a dullard for calling me a moron.

It was your point to begin with, I just killed it so your loss.

No..That last post confirms to me that you're dumb as hell. If not, you would've understood my reply there. Wow.

"Maybe Onoki's IQ is pretty low..." I FUKN DIED.

Yes because it's the perfect reply for you're stupid question which got you confused regarding your entire theory. Asking me why he used this on him or so when he forgot about a technique. GTFOH.

Lol nice attempt at trying to make me salty, not gonna work though.

NO...I'm 100% sure that it's either you don't read a response before you reply, you forget what you say or you're just naturally retarded because what I just responded to reading that clam point proves that you're way to silly.

:lol you conceded the Ay/Onoki point. So you definitely didn't "straight up counter me" with that.

HAHAHAHA Beans first post:

Another reason he used it directly on Muu is because the jutsu's effect weakens the further away the target is from the point of contact. Why do you think he decided to use weighted-boulder on Muu, knowing full well Muu could just counter its effects by lightening himself? Probably because he made Muu so heavy that he would have no way of canceling its effect even with LB. If he had just used it on the ground, its effect on Muu wouldn't have been so great.

Haizaki counter with the Onoki/Ay point

Beans next post:

Lol at the bold, nothing in any of the logic I used would imply that. Never said LB can't undo WB- just that if a powerful enough WB is used its effects can't always be immediately countered with the opposite jutsu.

For a fact you tried implying that the WB was so powerful that he couldn't counter. I hit you with the Ay point, you went to ahead to lie. Smh who cares. LOL trying my hardest not to insult you but can't resist.

Um, I don't see where I contradicted myself? I've been saying the same thing this whole time until this post when I realized it was a fission Muu. Irrelevant to the argument anyway, moving on.

Smh...You funny as hell. Read you points before and after I counter them.

Stop dodging questions and replying with one liners. You've been ignoring my key points this entire debate, like:

-Why there was a crater around Muu.
-How the sand around Madara got lightened even though Onoki didn't touch those individual grains.

- Answered

- Answered

Read the debate.

I conceded the turtle island point in my last post, so you wasted your time with this paragraph.

Only if you conceded and made it clear rather than try to give a nonsensical explanation that made no sense.

This whole manga is a piece of fiction buddy.

Not a fan fiction.

@Bold- what do you call this then?
You must be registered for see links

I don't need to explain Onoki's motives. Neither do you, which is why you didn't answer me when I asked you why Onoki used WB on an opponent who had LB. It's a two way street kiddo. Their strategy was to whisk Madara out of Susanoo with the lightened sand at Madara's feet, then for Naruto to hit him with FRS. That's what they came up with on the spot. For some reason or another Onoki didn't use a different strategy which involved WB.

"Their strategy was not for Gaara to use lightened sand on Susano'o"..Understand that this was in reference to the fact that if Onoki could use WB through the sand to Madara's position.

Giant katon in the enclosed location which they were in would have one shotted.

Lol Mu can fly and which enclosed location? Show me but I know for a fact that Mu can take flight in other to escape. Outta here kid.

At least I have an assumption. You have nothing because any other explanation doesn't make sense. BTW, if you really think direct contact is needed for WB to work...

You must be registered for see links

How come the clone Madaras inside their Susanoos were also weighted down, if Onoki only made contact with their Susanoos? If the clones themselves weren't weighted down, then they would have just deactivated Susanoo, manifested Susanoo again and continued battling.

Susano'o was weighed down and not the clones inside. "Madara says my Susano'o" Period. Lmao maybe because of the fact that that it requires chakra from clones to do and reproduce a new technique especially a legged Susano'o. Wait...Maybe it was a proper mean of defense for them against techniques and raw strength from the individual

You must be registered for see links

Not to mention I can ask you "Why didn't Madara create and recreate clones again?"

I'm assuming you meant to say "weighted" instead of "lightened"? I'm laughing right now...the explanation you gave (which I bolded) would involve indirect contact w/ WB since the golem itself can't use WB so Onoki doing it through the golem to Susanoo would still be indirect contact. The underline is an even worse argument, because each one of those wood clones has EMS and would track Onoki and swat him down with Susanoo swords the moment he tries to come close, let alone the fact that the Susanoo clones are watching each others backs and the four others would gang bang him even if he managed to tag even one. If you're doubting EMS' tracking capabilities, refer to how EMS Sasuke tagged Juubito and forced him to block instead of dodge. Granted, EMS Sasuke has better precog than a 1/25th power Edo Madara wood clone, but Juubito is much much much much faster than Onoki.

LOL Later on the manga, we got Sasuke using chidori through his PS and Naruto using Giant rasengan through his Avatar....Now telling me something Onoki can control (especially seeing as this thing is the same nature as these 2 techniques) cannot use WB/LB is pure nonsense. How you related that to back your indirect sand argument is nonsense unless we cosigning those 2 being able to use their abilities though object. SMH.

So let's look at Tsunade who's slower than Onoki being able to strike in a bad state

You must be registered for see links

. There goes your tracking feat and the fact that these are clones too. You know that Sasuke as well could track Juubito but it took a while to eventually time and hit correctly even being able to track him. Size is obviously an important factor against giants compared to you.

The fact that I showed Tsuande being able to accomplish contact especially in a loud manner "AHHHHH" is more than enough for Onoki too silently go thorough and make little contact.

Not to mention coming close to Susanoo makes him
You must be registered for see links
but he was never caught.

Terrible point because this was due to a distraction

You must be registered for see links

Sharingan can't see Muu thus Itachi can't copy a jutsu he literally can't see with his own eyes so that trashes your whole phucking argument.

Lmao retard...Sharingan for a fact can see him doing it. Invisibility is the technique and Sharingan can copy what leads to it hence granting him it like here where Kakashi copied and released the Jutsu at the same time

You must be registered for see links

flip to next page to confirm he juts copied. Did he see it before releasing it despite dropping at the same time? O there when he copies the seals and then releases the Jutsu before Zabuza and he asked if he can see the future

You must be registered for see links

. Period. I explained this before and others agreed. Don't have to again.

Your sentence structure is terrible.

Terrible enough to get me through university with a first class and survive writing a thesis which got approved? No partner this just mean the world to you but we messing around. Obviously doesn't mean anything to you and a more reason for me to not care since it's just a forum.

You shouldn't go around the internet calling people ni****s regardless of what race you are, but hey that's just my opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was joking...It's not serious. Christ relax and it's offensive to say "white a hell" as other people from your race might be offended.

I pity you and the seriousness with which you take NB. I don't give a damn what happened in another thread. You're trying to make it personal and it's not, not for me at least. I'm just facepalming at what you've been posting here. At the beginning of this thread you said you'd "take anyone on and vow not to lose" but you took your vow too damn serious to the point where you're turning a blind eye to manga facts lmao. But this next part should prove my point beyond reasonable doubt.

Lmfaoo should I really address this? You go around trying to get your thread hot and all but you telling me this? I don't care Lol. Telling me to post so you can dislike my post is proof that you care about stuff like that. Me saying I "vow not to lose"mis just confidence and nothing serious. KG liked it because he knows I'm just messing around unlike you seeing this as some serious ass threat or so. Chill. Christ.

Not possible because Onoki would have had to be right inside Susanoo to do it.

Madara was moving from place to place throughout the battle.

Doesn't make sense because if Gaara could pull him out with regular sand he would have done so much earlier and not needing Onoki to lighten it, when manga makes it clear the reason their strategy was succesful was because the sand was lightened. Lightened sand is fast enough to snag Madara's arm before he reacts, whereas normal sand isn't otherwse Gaara woud have done just that earlier.

First point I can say that's actually reasonable.

He couldn't have done it in that time frame because Gaara's lightened sand (
You must be registered for see links
) reached Susanoo at the same time that the sand underneath Madara reached his arm. Unless you think Gaara can make his lightened sand travel through the desert just as fast as his lightened sand can travel through the air.

Interpret the Manga properly:

Top one shows that the sand got to Susano'o first and bottom shows Madara got touched next...Manga goes from right to left and top to bottom. Which means the sand that traveled through air got there fist before that of Madara. Factual.

Not to mention if you were even right(which obviously isn't the case here) then I can argue that then sand was already traveling through the desert before the one going through the air.

You must be registered for see links

That was Gaara's gourd sand in the bottom right. You can clearly see it touch Susanoo in the next panel, either to restrain it or to distract Madara.

Very well helps my point that the sound around them may not have been lightened hence the sand having to take flight when lightened sand from there could have just restrained Susano'o. Not to mention you once again didn't help yourself because if you claimed that they got there at the same time or traveled at the same time, then how would Madara be ditsracted when those 2 scans are occurring at the same time?

Thanks for this.

I stopped arguing long ago that Onoki only touched Gaara's gourd sand to lighten the desert sand, which is why I said this:

No...Otherwise it won't be addressed or next time make it clear.

Onoki must have made the sand normal weight again before Gaara used it to assist against the meteor.

Lol when? Please prove it to us? When? You're going to say of paneled but don't even bother till I see proof lmao. 2 can play at your game.

But I'm not done. There's more evidence.
You must be registered for see links
Onoki only touches Gaara's gourd, but all the grains of sand inside got lightened though Onoki didn't touch them? Hmmmmmmmmm. But I thought LB needed direct contact to work? Or does it? Then look at the sheer scale of the sand which was lightened.

Bad point

Gaara's gourd is chakra infused and shouldn't be treated as normal sand as it's a "specially made sand". Hence can be seeing a single collective unit. Not to mention Gaara's gourd is sand

You must be registered for see links

You must be registered for see images

It's different and specially made from Chakra. Treat it the same way as you treat Sunsano'o getting touched at the back hence the whole body being immobilized.

You must be registered for see links
(top panel)

If LB could only be established through direct contact like you're saying, then this is the total amount of sand Onoki would be able to lighten at a time if he used both hands:

You must be registered for see images

Yet billions and billions of grains of sand were lightened when he only touched a couple thousand...

Exactly so you take my points in red regarding another possibility. It doesn't make any sense.

I also asked you this, if Onoki touched those grains and apparently had his technique travel through because it was in contact with Madara, then why didn't the people who we in contact with the sand get affected.

Do you know why your point makes zero sense? You refuse to treat the sand a collective unit so the grains around Madara aren't in contact with this particular grains you're claiming he made but you state indirectly. Hence the only reasonable thing is that the sand travelled through what was in contact with it. However the people in contract with the sand didn't get affected even though it would have to travel through them to get to the one's near Madara. Makes no absolute sense.

If Mu decides to touch the ground and use a non existent technique. Amaterasu lights him up. Mu can't even use techniques while invisible and if he comes visible. He dies. Thread ends because I know you cannot ignore my strategy in red and all the other factors regarding how those people the technique had to travel through weren't affected.

Beans2 · Jan 22, 2016

If someone would read this thread in full I'd love to hear a third opinion, but I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this guy again and I sure as hell won't continue to do so.

Haizaki · Jan 22, 2016

Beans2 said:
If someone would read this thread in full I'd love to hear a third opinion, but I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this guy again and I sure as hell won't continue to do so.

100% confident no third party would agree with something stupid as Mu being able to pass weighted boulder through the ground in order to catch people with it.

On the other hand, we had third parties agreeing with me that the Sharingan can copy him after reading my argument. Despite calling it dumb. GTFOH

EZQ · Jan 22, 2016

Beans2 said:
Lol just stfu Nd respond, no need for unnecesary posts like this

EDIT: Lol Haizaki neg repped me for this post

You must be registered for see images

Bruh quit saying niguh, you white as hell plus it's offensive.

Lmao this is my fav quote from beans

Beans2 · Jan 22, 2016

Haizaki said:
100% confident no third party would agree with something stupid as Mu being able to pass weighted boulder through the ground in order to catch people with it.

On the other hand, we had third parties agreeing with me that the Sharingan can copy him after reading my argument. Despite calling it dumb. GTFOH

Oh wait, But KG is a third party and I convinced him that the bold is true earlier on in this thread to where he ended up conceding. You should have done the same. I wasn't asking your opinion so quit quoting me.

Haizaki · Jan 22, 2016

Beans2 said:
Oh wait, But KG is a third party and I convinced him that the bold is true earlier on in this thread to where he ended up conceding. You should have done the same. I wasn't asking your opinion so quit quoting me.

Loool you have to be outta your mind if you believe I should concede after my last post. Especially that Mu point. Lmao I'm laughing at you kid. Smh

KG was sarcastic you moron.

Beans2 · Jan 22, 2016

Haizaki said:
Loool you have to be outta your mind if you believe I should concede after my last post. Especially that Mu point. Lmao I'm laughing at you kid. Smh

KG was sarcastic you moron.

But was he?

You must be registered for see images

Muu vs Itachi

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Jōnin Strategist 🧠

Kage in the Making 👑

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜

Sannin of the Scrolls 📜