Muu vs Itachi

[EZQ]

There's definitely some evidence in both sides. I don't think Beans should diserve to be called a retard even if he's not right on this one, because when Kishimoto ****s up his own Manga with some twisted logic, it's easy to make some mistakes. It definitely seems that the sand around Muu was weightened too, but there have been a lot of scans of Muu or Onoki actually needing to touch the target to perform this. Haizaki is right in some points as well. Personally i believe that there are some inconcistences on this jutsu. If it worked like beans says then i think that there are some restrictions to it, since he hasn't used it directly on his opponent while he has lightened things by indirect contact.

Maybe it works on short distances.

 

[Haizaki]

There's definitely some evidence in both sides. I don't think Beans should diserve to be called a retard even if he's not right on this one, because when Kishimoto ****s up his own Manga with some twisted logic, it's easy to make some mistakes. It definitely seems that the sand around Muu was weightened too, but there have been a lot of scans of Muu or Onoki actually needing to touch the target to perform this. Haizaki is right in some points as well. Personally i believe that there are some inconcistences on this jutsu. If it worked like beans says then i think that there are some restrictions to it, since he hasn't used it directly on his opponent while he has lightened things by indirect contact.

Maybe it works on short distances.

Wish I was home to point out again that recent scan. Look for a spoiler where I put some circles and arrows hinting at a difference in my last post regarding that Mu point.

Lmao Beans definitely deserves to be called a retard if he has the hands to trype the word moron with horrible points. I can't address every single thing here but I know for a FACT like you said, Beans/the retard is obviously wrong.

 

[Waltz]

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Even if the theory of Beans was correct, it wouldn't work on Itachi. The moment Kajūgan no Jutsu is used on the sand the heavier portion's of the sand would immerse and Itachi will not only see that but he'd easily be able to pinpoint where the immersion began because it's greatest point of concentration would be where Mu's palm's are making contact with the ground. Also, the larger the surface area to be covered by the Jutsu; the more Chakra it would consume and since this scan [

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] not only confirms it but also supports the Databook's implication that the that the Jutsu is not instantaneous but it's effects gradually increase (depending on the weight of the target) and that it cannot be concentrated but spreads through the entire 'target area'; it would be crazy for Mu to try to gradually lighten an entire terrain just as a means to catch Itachi especially since he'd just go Air borne the moment he witnesses the ground gradually caving in.

Props to Beans tho, he handled the weak responses well. I also 'smh' when Haizaki used Gaara not making a statement as a means to counter his argument. However:

So the DB shows a picture of Muu sitting on top of sand in a crater, but the caption says the user can easily bury the enemy alive. Hmmmmmm. Wonder how that helps your argument? Oh wait, it doesn't, because it contradicts literally everything you said about the target being immersed in sand because immersed means "to put (something) in a liquid so that all parts are completely covered". . It actually helps mine. If the surrounding sand hadn't been weighted down, then Muu actually would have been immersed in the desert because there would be no crater.

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And notice how you still haven't been able to explain why there's a crater around Muu per your argument, even though craters don't appear when you place a heavy object on top of sand. The obvious explanation is that the surrounding sand got weighted down too, and its effect gradually lessened with each individual grain of sand the farther away it is from Muu. But hey, if you want to turn a blind eye to facts then it's not my job to educate you.

The pic on the left show's Mu phasing through the sand, not sinking as for him to sink, the granules of sand would be pushed away from and condensed around his body forming a creator and if Onooki was truly increasing the weight of the sand around Mu then the creator should look more along the lines of this:

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For the simple fact that each grain of sand has more or less the same weight and Onooki would be applying an equal amount of weight to each grain of sand; thus forming an even creator as opposed to an uneven 'V' shaped one.

I agree with KG and Haizaki for the most part tho. Onooki and Mu can't use the Jutsu's passively like that because where ever there palms make contact with first is going to be affected at the minimal time and circumference the Jutsu can affect. ​

 

[EZQ]

Wish I was home to point out again that recent scan. Look for a spoiler where I put some circles and arrows hinting at a difference in my last post regarding that Mu point.

Lmao Beans definitely deserves to be called a retard if he has the hands to trype the word moron with horrible points. I can't address every single thing here but I know for a FACT like you said, Beans/the retard is obviously wrong.

Lol, the bold. That's now my fav quote from you.

 

[Waltz]

When Onoki diminished the weight of turtle island it had to be that the Jutsu affected everything in physical contact with the island as it would be impossible to denote the feat of him carrying the weight of those attributes to his physical strength. It gave the rule that if something is in physical contact with whatever is being lightened (or made heavier for that matter) the that object would suffer the effects of the Jutsu as well. However in this scan:

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Onooki states that he made the sand 'around here lighter' yet the Shinobi and Gaara were not also lightened. I think perhaps it had to do with the fact that Gaara controls the sand with his Chakra and this connection was also affected by the jutsu since the things which produce chakra, the Tenketsu, are within Gaara's body which was lightened but I also believe that Onooki directly and passively controls the quantity by which the weight of the target is reduced or increased. Since Human beings are much heavier than grains of sand, he could have lightened the weight of the sand by lightening Gaara/his gourd without also causing drastic drop in Gaara's weight.

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Though my previous ramble could conflict with the scenario with Mu and the argument could be formed that; since Mu was in physical contact with sand it therefore means that the sand should have suffered the effects of the jutsu; this clearly is not the case based on the type of creator that was form and only an idiot would believe that the size of Mu's body + the size of the Creator is the minimal AoE of the Jutsu as how could it be when it's sister jutsu's AoE was able to lighten an entire meteorite within a little more than minimal time----unless Onoki controls the AoE as well but there's no proof to that and the type of creator still negates it and that leaves one option: It was Chakra related and works via chakra connections. That explains 2/3 scenarios:

1) Onooki lightened the Sand around them through Gaara via his gourd as he manipulates sand via his chakra who's medium are the Tenketsu, which are within his body and since Human beings are much heavier than grains of sand, he could have lightened the weight of the sand by lightening Gaara/his gourd without also causing drastic drop in Gaara's weight.

2)The Sand around Mu was never lightened because it had no connection to his Chakra.


Hmm..that leaves turtle Island.

Doton: Keijūgan no Jutsu ("Light-Weight Rock Technique)

Short-Rang, Offensive and Supplimentary

To dance in the sky released from gravity's constraints

The Jutsu reduces the target's gravity. It's natural application is to enhance, naturally it's used to make the weight of the things one carries lighten, ones personal weight can also be reduced, making ones movements fast and agile. The atmosphere as well as the human body is made light, in-order to soar through the sky. On occasion, It is popular for a person to control the jutsu's flight in the sky with specific stances, with practice one can freely fly about in the sky.

Touching the target in an instant their gravity is taken away. The Jutsu user regulates how much (gravity) is snatched away.

The sensation of soaring through the sky is extraordinarily pleasant.

So the databook confirms my thoughts that Onooki directly and passively controls the quantity by which the weight of the target is reduced or increased. If your weight is reduced to the point you are able to float it therefore means that the weight of everything within your body, including your chakra, is also reduced and if by extension your chakra is directly connected to something else then that would be lightened also. The red explains turtle island, the weight of everything within the atmosphere of turtle island was diminished meaning the weight of everything between the mountain's on it's back and the bottom of it's stomach :

Spoiler

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Was reduced to the point that the effect of Gravity was 0 enabling Onooki to carry it. This does NOT mean that Onooki transferred the jutsu from the turtle to Naruto and company, so Beans was wrong here.
​

 

[Haizaki]

Props to Beans tho, he handled the weak responses well. I also 'smh' when Haizaki used Gaara not making a statement as a means to counter his argument.

Good points overall but I'll tell you to read the whole damn debate before you conclude what's weak and what's not. Gaara here was a side point to support my main argument based on the fact that he previously made it clear that the sand was altered. I brought that into consideration because he was the one controlling the sand. I said "Gaara didn't note a difference" He didn't have to make a statement lmao. His thought like here

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for example could have made something that was not touched by the Manga or the DB's description of the technique very clear to us the viewers. There is absolutely nothing wrong for me using that as a side point and however you feel about it concerns you anyway smh.

Next time try and read the whole thing as you clearly missed my main arguments. I hope you really didn't sit there thinking a statement was my main point all through? Hell no that was to support my main point given the fact that he controls it and never hinted at a difference when one claim there is. Considering the fact that there's less information on whether Onoki can even do this when there are things that suggest he can't really such as having to fly all the way to Mu to make contact. Those are supporting arguments to my main one which you easily missed out.

I agree with KG and Haizaki for the most part tho. Onooki and Mu can't use the Jutsu's passively like that because where ever there palms make contact with first is going to be affected at the minimal time and circumference the Jutsu can affect. [/FONT][/INDENT]

Good points too.


@EZQ, What I was trying to say that made things unclear with the sand being weighted.

When Onoki weighs down Mu:

Spoiler

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What are those in red? Rocky materials upon Mu getting weighted? The arrow and symbol showing the impact to the ground upon Mu getting weighted. If the sand or so was getting weighted to, that should have never ever happened. It's clear that Mu being weighted caused that to happen and the impact cause to the ground was what blew that up causing. Both getting weighted shouldn't cause that or should it? Nah don't think so because it's Mu being heavy that's causing that impact on the sand.

I addressed the Onoki one considering the option that could have happened such as Gaara channeling the lightened sand through the desert to grab him. Like Waltz said which I've bee saying, the alliance and Gaara didn't get affected which is a big point despite them being in connect with the so called sand that was being passed to Madara. Smh I know the debate was long but there where key factors in those points that I see being repeated but I'm sure KG read them like in post #50.

 

[Waltz]

Good points overall but I'll tell you to read the whole damn debate before you conclude what's weak and what's not. Gaara here was a side point to support my main argument based on the fact that he previously made it clear that the sand was altered. I brought that into consideration because he was the one controlling the sand. I said "Gaara didn't note a difference" He didn't have to make a statement lmao. His thought like here

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for example could have made something that was not touched by the Manga or the DB's description of the technique very clear to us the viewers. There is absolutely nothing wrong for me using that as a side point and however you feel about it concerns you anyway smh.

Next time try and read the whole thing as you clearly missed my main arguments. I hope you really didn't sit there thinking a statement was my main point all through? Hell no that was to support my main point given the fact that he controls it and never hinted at a difference.Considering the fact that there's less information on whether Onoki can even do this when there are things that suggest he can't really such as having to fly sall the way to Mu to make contact. Does are supporting arguments to my main one which you easily missed out.

Who said I missed your main argument, didn't read the entire debate and when did I give the notion that I thought that the portion of your argument that I referenced as being weak was your main point overall? No need to get so defensive and it was and still is a very weak point, hence why I even mentioned it because: Why would it even need to be compulsory for Gaara to 'say' each time Onooki lightens the sand simply because he's in control of it? If Gaara was already familiar with the feel of lightened sand then there was absolutely no need for him, in the middle of a Global war when he should be focusing on defeating his enemies to repetitively say "Hey guys! guess what the sand is so light!"

@ Red: I totally agree with you but that information is actually nonexistent, it was just an assumption and misunderstanding (on Beans behalf) of events. ​

 

[Haizaki]

Who said I missed your main argument, didn't read the entire debate and when did I give the notion that I thought that the portion of your argument that I referenced as being weak was your main point overall? No need to get so defensive and it was and still is a very weak point, hence why I even mentioned it because: Why would it even need to be compulsory for Gaara to 'say' each time Onooki lightens the sand simply because he's in control of it? If Gaara was already familiar with the feel of lightened sand then there was absolutely no need for him, in the middle of a Global war when he should be focusing on defeating his enemies to repetitively say "Hey guys! guess what the sand is so light!"

@ Red: I totally agree with you but that information is actually nonexistent, it was just an assumption and misunderstanding (on Beans behalf) of events. ​

Yeah, guess we can agree here as we're on the same page. As for the Gaara point, I introduced him having his lightened sand travel through the desert sand in order to grab Madara from underneath.

 

[Waltz]

Yeah because that's exactly what happened but I was just compensating for the seemingly ambiguous statement and situations Beans was capitalizing on.

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without adding the new function's to the Jutsu which Beans was theorizing, then he has no theory.

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​

 

[~Ethereal~]

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Even if the theory of Beans was correct, it wouldn't work on Itachi. The moment Kajūgan no Jutsu is used on the sand the heavier portion's of the sand would immerse and Itachi will not only see that but he'd easily be able to pinpoint where the immersion began because it's greatest point of concentration would be where Mu's palm's are making contact with the ground. Also, the larger the surface area to be covered by the Jutsu; the more Chakra it would consume and since this scan [

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] not only confirms it but also supports the Databook's implication that the that the Jutsu is not instantaneous but it's effects gradually increase (depending on the weight of the target) and that it cannot be concentrated but spreads through the entire 'target area'; it would be crazy for Mu to try to gradually lighten an entire terrain just as a means to catch Itachi especially since he'd just go Air borne the moment he witnesses the ground gradually caving in.

Props to Beans tho, he handled the weak responses well. I also 'smh' when Haizaki used Gaara not making a statement as a means to counter his argument. However:



The pic on the left show's Mu phasing through the sand, not sinking as for him to sink, the granules of sand would be pushed away from and condensed around his body forming a creator and if Onooki was truly increasing the weight of the sand around Mu then the creator should look more along the lines of this:

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For the simple fact that each grain of sand has more or less the same weight and Onooki would be applying an equal amount of weight to each grain of sand; thus forming an even creator as opposed to an uneven 'V' shaped one.

I agree with KG and Haizaki for the most part tho. Onooki and Mu can't use the Jutsu's passively like that because where ever there palms make contact with first is going to be affected at the minimal time and circumference the Jutsu can affect. ​

Go talk a Waltz.

 

[Uchihakil]

No. The next panel doesn't show him any further away from his original position behind Gaara's gourd, the panel is just drawn from another angle. Weak evidence for you trying to prove that Onoki used weighted boulder on the ground when that was never shown. All we see is him using lightened boulder on the gourd, saying that he made the sand around there lighter, and then the sand beneath Madara's Susanoo being lightened. Explain to me the bold? The desert is not a single unit. Like I just said, sand is composed of billions of tiny grains. Even if Onoki did place his hands on the desert floor and touch a few grains of sand, and the grains of sand beneath Madara get lightened too (despite Onoki not having touched them) then that's proof right there that direct contact isn't needed for lightened boulder to take effect. Meaning that if you deny that only indirect contact is needed for LB/WB to work you're choosing to deny manga fact. Your Minato example fails because Onoki's jutsu and Minato's jutsu don't work the same way at all nor were they implied to.



..................

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Onoki was carrying turtle island with one hand. If everybody on the island retained their normal weight, Onoki wouldn't be able to pick them all up unless you're suggesting Onoki is physically strong enough to literally carry tons of cargo. That should end this discussion.



You would be right that it doesn't matter if you can come up with an explanation or not...... if only manga panels didn't prove my assertion to be 100% right. I know it's unfair that Muu is actually this OP, but you can either choose to deal with it or you can choose to deny manga facts. Your choice :lol.

-The individual grains of sand beneath Madara were lightened despite Onoki never making contact with that part of the desert.
-All the objects on Turtle Island got lightened despite Onoki not lightening them all individually, proof being that Onoki could carry it all with one hand.
-Onoki weighted down five Susanoo clones by touching the ground (implied because there's no other way he could have done it.)

I don't even know where you're going with the SZ point. Can't see how that's relevant tbh.



1. So? Could be because Muu was flying through the air. Just because Onoki can weigh down opponents just by touching the ground doesn't mean there aren't limitations to the technique. If the target's position is constantly changing then Onoki can't zero in on his target and therefore doesn't know where to direct his jutsu. In fact, after looking through these pages I just found ANOTHER piece of evidence for why direct contact isn't needed.

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Look at the sand around Muu. If you've ever been to the beach, you know sand doesn't act like that when a heavy object is placed on top of it. It looks like the sand beneath Muu got weighted down too, with its effect gradually decreasing the further away it is from Muu.

2. Lol. I hope you know why this example is bad. If Onoki wasn't on Ay's back, he'd have no clue where Ay was (and therefore where to direct his jutsu) nor would he know when Ay was going to strike (and therefore when to use WB.)

3. What would making Madara heavy have accomplished? They still wouldn't be able to breach Susanoo. Plus it seems that the farther away from the point of contact the target is, the smaller the effect is.

@Bold, did you really just say that feats are irrelevant... :|



Come on now. That's not proof. How does Itachi actually defeat Muu?

I dont get why people use the madara defeating muu and ohnoki as a way for muu to lose, I'm an itachi fan but tbh it comes down to if the sharingan can see muu or not, if it can itachi sets him ablaze, if it can't I see muu winning more times than not, nobody has a concrete answer as to if the sharingan can see muu, but with muu erasing his existence (even kcm naruto did'nt sense when muu used fission) I doubt the sharingan can see him, muu is underrated because of what happened against madara, and because he stalemated with gengetsu (who also has a technique that's hard to beat, one has to be a contact sensor to sense the clam, muu aint no contact sensor, so its kinda a bad matchup for him, that's why A>B>C logic is shit in naruto matchups for people beliving that,that's just complete bs, it took gaara, kcm naruto and ohnoki to defeat him of which he still got away, as I said, I'm an itachi fan and tbh its a bad matchup for itachi, muu is hax, and good arguement beans, I'm with you, you concrete evidence as to why ohnoki's weighted boulder jutsu does'nt only affect directly, I don't see ohnoki flying around and touching ps without madara swatting the lil punk kinda like how he did to gaara

 

[Beans2]

Oh man... I'm reading this thread again and just cringing so hard at everything I wrote. Not only were my arguments bad but I was such an arrogant tool. I took NB so seriously in 2015-2016 and was such a douche on here. Lol.

 

[Nattana]

Oh man... I'm reading this thread again and just cringing so hard at everything I wrote. Not only were my arguments bad but I was such an arrogant tool. I took NB so seriously in 2015-2016 and was such a douche on here. Lol.

Don't worry. All the rudeness and arrogance were inherited by some other user of this base.

 

[TheLostShinobi]

Oh man... I'm reading this thread again and just cringing so hard at everything I wrote. Not only were my arguments bad but I was such an arrogant tool. I took NB so seriously in 2015-2016 and was such a douche on here. Lol.

It's ok. Muu-sama still solos'