Muu vs Itachi

[Beans2]

-Muu is alive and has his dual swords.
-Itachi is alive with MS and his sickness won't have him coughing up blood.

Location: Muu vs Onoki
Intel: Full
Starting Distance: 50 meters

Scenario 1: As above
Scenario 2: Yata Mirror is restricted

 

[Null Man]

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[KidGamer65]

Itachi wins, mid diff.

Once Mu goes invisible, Itachi will know that camping in Susanoo won't help him, so all he needs to do is make a few crow clones and then wait. If Mu attacks one, he simply uses Amaterasu right in that spot (or if close enough he spawns Susanoo's hand and grabs him), and being invisible is irrelevant since Mu still isn't fast enough to dodge it. The clone bursting into a flock of crows can also be used to confuse/distract Mu and sensing isn't going to let him tell which is the original when Kabuto (better sensor than Mu by a lot) got feinted by Itachi's Crow clone. Itachi would win the waiting game here if Mu tried to play it since Itachi standing idly doesn't use chakra, but Mu flying and maintaining his invisibility uses chakra.

If he switches the strategy and tries to murk with Jinton, then he gets raped by Amaterasu the moment he becomes visible.

 

[Haizaki]

Lmao, Anybody up for debate? Itachi wins. I'll take anybody who ready and I vow not to lose lmao

 

[Beans2]

Itachi wins, mid diff.

Once Mu goes invisible, Itachi will know that camping in Susanoo won't help him, so all he needs to do is make a few crow clones and then wait. If Mu attacks one, he simply uses Amaterasu right in that spot (or if close enough he spawns Susanoo's hand and grabs him), and being invisible is irrelevant since Mu still isn't fast enough to dodge it. The clone bursting into a flock of crows can also be used to confuse/distract Mu and sensing isn't going to let him tell which is the original when Kabuto (better sensor than Mu by a lot) got feinted by Itachi's Crow clone. Itachi would win the waiting game here if Mu tried to play it since Itachi standing idly doesn't use chakra, but Mu flying and maintaining his invisibility uses chakra.

If he switches the strategy and tries to murk with Jinton, then he gets raped by Amaterasu the moment he becomes visible.

When Muu sees Itachi make clones, he will go behind a stone pillar (for protection from Amaterasu) and use weighted-boulder jutsu on the ground to immobilize Itachi and his clones.

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-Onoki lightened the sand underneath Madara's Susanoo simply by

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, which was in contact with Gaara, who was in contact with the ground.

That should prove direct contact isn't needed for the weighted boulder jutsu to take effect. If you want to claim that Muu doesn't have the weighted boulder jutsu, how do you think he makes himself heavy again after he lightens himself?

With Itachi and his clones immobilized, Muu just needs to finish them all off with a large sweeping Jinton. He can prepare Jinton from behind a

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so if Itachi uses Amaterasu, it will just hit the rock instead of hitting Muu.

When Itachi sees Muu preparing Jinton, he can't dodge (due to being weighted) so he'll manifest V3 Susanoo and use Yasaka Magatamas to interrupt Jinton prep. This will work once but only once, because Muu will just

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. Muu will know there are Magatamas coming at him because he's a sensor, even if he can't see past the rock he's behind. Now, all Muu has to do is use weighted boulder on the ground again, and Itachi's Susanoo becomes immobilized.

The battle ends with Muu firing another Jinton and Itachi being able to do nothing about it, since his Susanoo can't throw magatamas when it's weighted down and too heavy to move.

 

[KidGamer65]

When Muu sees Itachi make clones, he will go behind a stone pillar (for protection from Amaterasu) and use weighted-boulder jutsu on the ground to immobilize Itachi and his clones.

-

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-Onoki lightened the sand underneath Madara's Susanoo simply by

You must be registered for see links

, which was in contact with Gaara, who was in contact with the ground.

That should prove direct contact isn't needed for the weighted boulder jutsu to take effect. If you want to claim that Muu doesn't have the weighted boulder jutsu, how do you think he makes himself heavy again after he lightens himself?

With Itachi and his clones immobilized, Muu just needs to finish them all off with a large sweeping Jinton. He can prepare Jinton from behind a

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so if Itachi uses Amaterasu, it will just hit the rock instead of hitting Muu.

When Itachi sees Muu preparing Jinton, he can't dodge (due to being weighted) so he'll manifest V3 Susanoo and use Yasaka Magatamas to interrupt Jinton prep. This will work once but only once, because Muu will just

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. Muu will know there are Magatamas coming at him because he's a sensor, even if he can't see past the rock he's behind. Now, all Muu has to do is use weighted boulder on the ground again, and Itachi's Susanoo becomes immobilized.

The battle ends with Muu firing another Jinton and Itachi being able to do nothing about it, since his Susanoo can't throw magatamas when it's weighted down and too heavy to move.

Nothing in the scan with Madara implies he used Weighted Boulder Jutsu on the ground to paralyze them, I could just as easily argue that he used it with his golem's hand when Susanoo attacked, and the sand example is irrelevant as that shows him using it on the ground only, which was sand at the time, not him making people touching the sand ligher (which would've worked a million times better instead of trying to bind Madara and rip him out). All the times he's gotten up close to make someone heavier (vs. Mu) make it pretty clear that he needs some kind of physical contact to lighten someone or make them heavy. That pretty much kills this strategy.

 

[Beans2]

Nothing in the scan with Madara implies he used Weighted Boulder Jutsu on the ground to paralyze them, I could just as easily argue that he used it with his golem's hand when Susanoo attacked, and the sand example is irrelevant as that shows him using it on the ground only, which was sand at the time, not him making people touching the sand ligher (which would've worked a million times better instead of trying to bind Madara and rip him out). All the times he's gotten up close to make someone heavier (vs. Mu) make it pretty clear that he needs some kind of physical contact to lighten someone or make them heavy. That pretty much kills this strategy.

The golem's hand never touched Susanoo. Those were a different five Susanoo clones. People get confused by that scan pretty often which is understandable, but here's what happened: The five Susanoo clones were about to kill Ay; at the last second, Onoki's golem snatches up Ay and takes him belowground before Susanoo strikes; the golem transports Ay underground to Onoki's location, where there are a different five Susanoo clones (which had been fighting Onoki) that were previously immobilized. The anime makes it pretty clear (watch at 31:35)

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And Onoki using the golem to weight down all five Susanoo clones shouldn't be possible, considering 5 V3 Susanoos would gang rape a rock golem (Yasaka magatamas cracked the golem even after they went through Gaara's sand mother.) Nor does Onoki individually tagging each Susanoo with the weighted rock jutsu make sense, because by feats, when he tries to tag one the other four would swat him down. The only explanation is that he used weighted boulder on the ground and weighted down the five Susanoo clones off panel.

How is the sand example irrelevant? Let me ask you: if Onoki can lighten Gaara, and in turn lighten the desert floor, why can't he lighten the desert floor and in turn lighten Gaara? Makes no sense. Using weighted boulder directly on the person is probably more effective, but that's not the only way to do it. The sand example and the Susanoo clones example back each other up. Direct contact isn't needed.

 

[KidGamer65]

The golem's hand never touched Susanoo. Those were a different five Susanoo clones. People get confused by that scan pretty often which is understandable, but here's what happened: The five Susanoo clones were about to kill Ay; at the last second, Onoki's golem snatches up Ay and takes him belowground before Susanoo strikes; the golem transports Ay underground to Onoki's location, where there are a different five Susanoo clones (which had been fighting Onoki) that were previously immobilized. The anime makes it pretty clear (watch at 31:35)

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And Onoki using the golem to weight down all five Susanoo clones shouldn't be possible, considering 5 V3 Susanoos would gang rape a rock golem (Yasaka magatamas cracked the golem even after they went through Gaara's sand mother.) Nor does Onoki individually tagging each Susanoo with the weighted rock jutsu make sense, because by feats, when he tries to tag one the other four would swat him down. The only explanation is that he used weighted boulder on the ground and weighted down the five Susanoo clones off panel.

How is the sand example irrelevant? Let me ask you: if Onoki can lighten Gaara, and in turn lighten the desert floor, why can't he lighten the desert floor and in turn lighten Gaara? Makes no sense. Using weighted boulder directly on the person is probably more effective, but that's not the only way to do it. The sand example and the Susanoo clones example back each other up. Direct contact isn't needed.

Oh, ok then. Lmao. Knew something seemed off. But if the Susanoo clones that Onoki was fighting was already shown to be immobilized, you don't have any sort of evidence that Onoki used it through the ground to touch them as they had already been hit by the time Onoki was shown on panel. And no, Onoki uses the jutsu on his gourd sand, then we see him away from Gaara talking about how he also made the sand on the ground lighter, meaning he touched the sand on the ground to make it lighter. He didn't do all that in one stroke nor is there any reason to believe he did.

The bold, is literally nothing but baseless assumptions. We know how Weighted Boulder Jutsu works, and we know that he managed to catch all 5 Susanoo. Thus Onoki somehow formulated a plan that let him get all 5 Susanoo (whether at the same time or not) immobilized. Just because you don't think it's possible doesn't mean it supports the notion that Weighted Boulder Jutsu can be used on people just by touching the ground. Doesn't make sense.

 

[EZQ]

Oh, ok then. Lmao. Knew something seemed off. But if the Susanoo clones that Onoki was fighting was already shown to be immobilized, you don't have any sort of evidence that Onoki used it through the ground to touch them as they had already been hit by the time Onoki was shown on panel. And no, Onoki uses the jutsu on his gourd sand, then we see him away from Gaara talking about how he also made the sand on the ground lighter, meaning he touched the sand on the ground to make it lighter. He didn't do all that in one stroke nor is there any reason to believe he did.

The bold, is literally nothing but baseless assumptions. We know how Weighted Boulder Jutsu works, and we know that he managed to catch all 5 Susanoo. Thus Onoki somehow formulated a plan that let him get all 5 Susanoo (whether at the same time or not) immobilized. Just because you don't think it's possible doesn't mean it supports the notion that Weighted Boulder Jutsu can be used on people just by touching the ground. Doesn't make sense.

I think that he inmovilized all 25 susano clones. Look at minute 32:10 of the vid. beans linked.

There's no way he could have direct contact with all of them.

I don't know it's weird. I don't think that all the remaining clones would just stay still. It's confusing anyways.

 

[EZQ]

I think that he inmovilized all 25 susano clones. Look at minute 32:10 of the vid. beans linked.

There's no way he could have direct contact with all of them.

I don't know it's weird. I don't think that all the remaining clones would just stay still. It's confusing anyways.

EDIT: Forger about it. I disagree with you beans this time. I agree with KG, he must have formulated a plan to use the jutsu on the susanos directly. The other 20 susanos were not affected by it.

 

[Beans2]

Oh, ok then. Lmao. Knew something seemed off. But if the Susanoo clones that Onoki was fighting was already shown to be immobilized, you don't have any sort of evidence that Onoki used it through the ground to touch them as they had already been hit by the time Onoki was shown on panel. And no, Onoki uses the jutsu on his gourd sand, then we see him away from Gaara talking about how he also made the sand on the ground lighter, meaning he touched the sand on the ground to make it lighter. He didn't do all that in one stroke nor is there any reason to believe he did.

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"I also made the sand around here lighter." Onoki's statement makes it clear as day that he lightened the surrounding desert sand the one time he was shown to use lightened boulder in that instance, which was when he made contact with Gaara's gourd. Onoki was never away from Gaara, and you don't have any evidence for the bold. And even if it was true, it wouldn't matter- because the desert is composed of billions of tiny grains of sand, so even if he made direct contact with the desert, he didn't make contact with the grains of sand beneath Madara's feet, once again proving that direct contact with the target isn't necessary for the jutsu to work. Then we have the fact that when he lightened Turtle Island, all the trees, buildings, and people on the island got lightened as well. The evidence just keeps mounting.

The bold, is literally nothing but baseless assumptions. We know how Weighted Boulder Jutsu works, and we know that he managed to catch all 5 Susanoo. Thus Onoki somehow formulated a plan that let him get all 5 Susanoo (whether at the same time or not) immobilized. Just because you don't think it's possible doesn't mean it supports the notion that Weighted Boulder Jutsu can be used on people just by touching the ground. Doesn't make sense.

Just because it happened off panel doesn't take away the legitimacy of the feat. I'd love to hear how you think Onoki managed to tag all five Susanoos, because there's no feasible way he could have done that. Onoki's fast, but he's not fast enough to literally go up to Susanoo and touch it without four other Susanoos swatting him down. He used WB on the ground and immobilized them, either one at a time or in a single stroke.

EDIT: Forger about it. I disagree with you beans this time. I agree with KG, he must have formulated a plan to use the jutsu on the susanos directly. The other 20 susanos were not affected by it.

The other 20 Susanoos were much farther away from him so they must have been too far away from the point of contact for them to be affected.

 

[Kuikamauna]

Itachi wins, mid diff.

Once Mu goes invisible, Itachi will know that camping in Susanoo won't help him, so all he needs to do is make a few crow clones and then wait. If Mu attacks one, he simply uses Amaterasu right in that spot (or if close enough he spawns Susanoo's hand and grabs him), and being invisible is irrelevant since Mu still isn't fast enough to dodge it. The clone bursting into a flock of crows can also be used to confuse/distract Mu and sensing isn't going to let him tell which is the original when Kabuto (better sensor than Mu by a lot) got feinted by Itachi's Crow clone. Itachi would win the waiting game here if Mu tried to play it since Itachi standing idly doesn't use chakra, but Mu flying and maintaining his invisibility uses chakra.

If he switches the strategy and tries to murk with Jinton, then he gets raped by Amaterasu the moment he becomes visible.

the thing is, unless crow clones split the user's chakra evenly, muu will be able to tell the difference between them since he's a really good sensor. IIRC only shadow clones have that ability.

Then there's the fact that the location allows muu to prep and fire his technique behind giant rocks, allowing him to avoid LoS from itachi making amaterasu or Tsukuyomi even harder to land. Then again, with full knowledge, someone as intelligent as itachi will probably realize his best shot at winning is amaterasu right off the bat so he'd probably have a good shot at winning that way.

 

[Zexion~]

Itachi wins, mid diff.

Once Mu goes invisible, Itachi will know that camping in Susanoo won't help him, so all he needs to do is make a few crow clones and then wait. If Mu attacks one, he simply uses Amaterasu right in that spot (or if close enough he spawns Susanoo's hand and grabs him), and being invisible is irrelevant since Mu still isn't fast enough to dodge it. The clone bursting into a flock of crows can also be used to confuse/distract Mu and sensing isn't going to let him tell which is the original when Kabuto (better sensor than Mu by a lot) got feinted by Itachi's Crow clone. Itachi would win the waiting game here if Mu tried to play it since Itachi standing idly doesn't use chakra, but Mu flying and maintaining his invisibility uses chakra.

If he switches the strategy and tries to murk with Jinton, then he gets raped by Amaterasu the moment he becomes visible.

What if he actually strikes the real Itachi?.... People never seem to realize there is still a chance the clone feints don't work.

 

[KidGamer65]

the thing is, unless crow clones split the user's chakra evenly, muu will be able to tell the difference between them since he's a really good sensor. IIRC only shadow clones have that ability.

Then there's the fact that the location allows muu to prep and fire his technique behind giant rocks, allowing him to avoid LoS from itachi making amaterasu or Tsukuyomi even harder to land. Then again, with full knowledge, someone as intelligent as itachi will probably realize his best shot at winning is amaterasu right off the bat so he'd probably have a good shot at winning that way.

Kabuto failed, so Mu won't succeed. And being able to prep his attack behind the rock won't matter since Yasaka Magatama would rip through the pillars at the Gokage fight.

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"I also made the sand around here lighter." Onoki's statement makes it clear as day that he lightened the surrounding desert sand the one time he was shown to use lightened boulder in that instance, which was when he made contact with Gaara's gourd. Onoki was never away from Gaara, and you don't have any evidence for the bold. And even if it was true, it wouldn't matter- because the desert is composed of billions of tiny grains of sand, so even if he made direct contact with the desert, he didn't make contact with the grains of sand beneath Madara's feet, once again proving that direct contact with the target isn't necessary for the jutsu to work. Then we have the fact that when he lightened Turtle Island, all the trees, buildings, and people on the island got lightened as well. The evidence just keeps mounting.

"I also made the sand around here lighter" means nothing more than he made the sand lighter around the area along with making Gaara's Sand lighter. Please tell me where this statement implies that he did it at the same time. That scan shows Onoki right behind Gaara touching his gourd, and the next scan shows him farther away than his original position. All him touching the sand shows is that he can make it lighter as they are all collectively a single unit. Same reason why Onoki can't lighten anything and everyone making contact with the ground, whether direct or indirect, is the same exact reason Minato can't warp anyone touching the ground despite the ground also touching him. Shouldn't have to explain this.

And no, the people and buildings on the island didn't get lighter. Trees are irrelevant even if they were hit because those are part of the turtle's body.

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-None of the people are showing any signs of being lightened.
-B's tail makes an impact it wouldn't have made if it were lightened, thus reduced power.
-Same goes for the falling rocks from the building.

Just because it happened off panel doesn't take away the legitimacy of the feat. I'd love to hear how you think Onoki managed to tag all five Susanoos, because there's no feasible way he could have done that. Onoki's fast, but he's not fast enough to literally go up to Susanoo and touch it without four other Susanoos swatting him down. He used WB on the ground and immobilized them, either one at a time or in a single stroke.

And there's no feasible way for him to do what you claim he can do when that's not how the jutsu works. DB, Manga, whatever source you want to cite all the same thing. "when the user touches the target". That's not how it was shown to work and that's not how it'll ever be shown to work. :lol Whether I can explain how Onoki tagged the Susanoos is 100% irrelevant so I suggest you drop this argument. Makes no sense at all and I shouldn't have to explain why. I've seen literally the same exact argument with Spiral Zetsu. He was able to hold off the Gokage, what was left of the SA and Hiruzen all at once even though anyone can make a feats based argument on why that's impossible. Good luck arguing Onoki can make people touching the ground lighter without actually touching them when he's done completely different and far less effective things with his lightened boulder jutsu and the weighted boulder jutsu.

-Onoki flew to Mu to touch him so he could make his body heavier.
-Onoki had to ride on Ay's back.
-Onoki had to lighten the sand on the ground and the sand in the gourd instead of just making Madara heavy.

Feats are irrelevant when the Manga has made it clear what happened.

What if he actually strikes the real Itachi?.... People never seem to realize there is still a chance the clone feints don't work.

Then Itachi loses, but considering his chances of doing that are low, I'm going to stick with the opinion that Itachi wins more than not.

 

[Kuikamauna]

Kabuto failed, so Mu won't succeed. And being able to prep his attack behind the rock won't matter since Yasaka Magatama would rip through the pillars at the Gokage fight.

Kabuto had to deal with more than muu though considering he was in the heat of battle against both edo itachi and EMS Sasuke while Muu only has to deal with itachi and can take his time to analyze since he's invisible.

Tsukuyomi and amaterasu are the only threats due to them being so quick to fire and how quickly they hit. Yasaka magatama arguably has an even greater prep time than jinton (since itachi has to summon susanoo first), and if itachi preps it before muu goes visible, muu just waits him out and lets itachi waste all his chakra holding up susanoo. Then there's the fact that even if YM is used a little before jinton, jinton will eradicate it unless it hits muu before he can fire.

 

[KidGamer65]

Kabuto had to deal with more than muu though considering he was in the heat of battle against both edo itachi and EMS Sasuke while Muu only has to deal with itachi and can take his time to analyze since he's invisible.

Tsukuyomi and amaterasu are the only threats due to them being so quick to fire and how quickly they hit. Yasaka magatama arguably has an even greater prep time than jinton (since itachi has to summon susanoo first), and if itachi preps it before muu goes visible, muu just waits him out and lets itachi waste all his chakra holding up susanoo. Then there's the fact that even if YM is used a little before jinton, jinton will eradicate it unless it hits muu before he can fire.

Kabuto was engaged with Itachi and Itachi alone at that time. Sasuke was in the back, doing nothing. So that excuse doesn't work.

Summoning Susanoo is instant first of all. So if he becomes visible to use Jinton, Itachi simply responds with Yasaka Magatama, forcing him to dodge, thus revealing his position thus he gets sniped by Amaterasu. If Yasaka doesn't make it in time Itachi simply evades the incoming Jinton and rinses and then takes out all surrounding pillars with Susanoo.

 

[Zexion~]

Then Itachi loses, but considering his chances of doing that are low, I'm going to stick with the opinion that Itachi wins more than not.

I feels, Mu is pretty perceptive though isn't he a boss sensor?

 

[KidGamer65]

I feels, Mu is pretty perceptive though isn't he a boss sensor?

He is, but Kabuto is a better one. So him being able to sense that he's fighting a clone when Kabuto failed to isn't likely.

 

[Zexion~]

He is, but Kabuto is a better one. So him being able to sense that he's fighting a clone when Kabuto failed to isn't likely.

Good shit.

 

[Kuikamauna]

Kabuto was engaged with Itachi and Itachi alone at that time. Sasuke was in the back, doing nothing. So that excuse doesn't work.

he may have been engaged with itachi, but part of his attention is always on sasuke considering if he focuses all of it on itachi as if sasuke wasn't there, it allows sasuke to end him.

You didn't address the part about Muu having the time to sit back and analyze due to invisibility.

Summoning Susanoo is instant first of all. So if he becomes visible to use Jinton, Itachi simply responds with Yasaka Magatama, forcing him to dodge, thus revealing his position thus he gets sniped by Amaterasu. If Yasaka doesn't make it in time Itachi simply evades the incoming Jinton and rinses and then takes out all surrounding pillars with Susanoo.

Summoning Susanoo isn't instant. It can be done quickly based on the user and how much chakra they have gathered in order to summon the construct.

You didn't address the problem of prep for YM even after susanoo has been summoned.

After using susanoo with his living body, itachi won't be in top shape to evade Jinton. The decrease in physical ability may be enough to allow him to get tagged. This decrease in physical ability increases the more this is repeated. If itachi takes out pillars, muu can just make more obstacles with standard issue doton (unless you want to argue he can't do the dotons that fodder alliance members can learn on the fly).