Mu and Onoki vs 3rd Raikage and Bee

[Conspirator.]

I think the 3rd Raikage and Bee take it although it's close.

-The third raikage is simply too fast to get hit by Jinton, and the short charge time of the jutsu(aka having to become visible) leaves him an opening to shunshin out of the way. I mean, he dodged a Rasenshuriken from KCM naruto(as fast as a bijuu bomb) twice!
-Mu could sneak attack the Raikage with his sword, but that will do jack.
-Bee can enter bijuu mode nigh instantly as he showed vs nagato, and simply use his large whirlwind to hurt/push back Onoki and Mu, and then finish them off with a bijuu bomb.
-The third can outlast the 2 though.

Although this is a close fight, and I'm still kind of unsure to be honest.

 

[Beans2]

Jinton takes a long time to charge up, much longer than the time taken to fire off a TBB, or a Bijuu Wave
and Muu is not jinton sniping anyone, when Third Raikage would also be present to locate him much easily the moment hes visible
furthermore the fact that

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, despite the flames being

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is a clear indication that muu is not blind atttacking anyone here, especially when hes visible

--Blind attacks are not happening to the raikage when hes faster then both of them, nor are they happening to bee when he has canonically reacted to a much faster attack,

--Jinton snipe is also not happening when they would be able to notice the charge up and prepare for it through a Bijuu Wave (BW), Whirlwind (WW) or a TBB

How is blocking Amaterasu even relevant here? Bee saw the attack coming and he blocked it, against Mu he cannot detect him fast enough to necessarily see the attack coming and react, nor can he block jinton like he did with Amaterasu. Mu flies behind Bee and nukes him with jinton before Bee even realizes anything.

Let's see here how exactly is the Third Raikage even going to touch flying opponents? The fact remains that Bee will not be able to detect Mu in time to avoid getting vaporized, even if the Third Raikage instantly notices Mu when he becomes visible (unlikely), he still will not be able to warn Bee, who needs to form and launch bijuudamas back at Mu, in the time it takes for Mu to form a jinton. Having two sets of eyes doesn't mean either of them can detect Mu quickly enough.

--Onoki is not distracting the hachibi in anyway whatsoever, his jintons are slower than the

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, not only will the TBB outnumber the jinton and overpower them, but the sheer magnitude of the explosion will eradicate the tsuchikages,

--Onoki is also getting blown away by a Bijuuwave (BW),

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as well, and matching it with a jinton isnt helping when bee can fire off more TBB and the shockwave of the BW will blow away the jinton as well therefore killing him

Bijuudamas are not that much quicker to use than jinton. That scan you posted doesn't prove anything since Bee probably started forming the TBB while he was still in the air so when he touched down he already had it compeleted. Onoki's jinton speed is

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, only a clap of the hands and a couple seconds of chakra is needed to form one, and considering Onoki

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it proves it doesn't take a significantly long time to fire off a jinton. Onoki can also distract him by forming several rock bunshins and have them each fly off in different directions. We know his flight speed is at least equal to that of Deidara's bird. Both TBB and BW are directional attacks, meaning Bee has to be facing his opponent to shoot off an attack at them, and as we can see

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the areas above, behind, and to the sides of the Hachibi are completely unaffected by the explosion, so - by having four or more clones fly in opposite directions and surround him, they can't be all targeted at once. Bee would have to focus on them one at a time, which easily buys Mu or Onoki enough time to kill him with jinton.

One TBB sure, but not continous TBB, especially when the collision between one TBB would result in the explosion,
and the other TBB will bombard the jinton and go diirectly towards the tsuchikages the moment the explosion is finished,

I agree

Ok, however

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is still something that muu cant do very easily
and if bee fires off TBB barrages then their mountain dwarving explosions are still not being evaded by someone of muus speed,
regardless of his sensing abilities, he does not have the speed to cover kilometers within seconds,

as you can see

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the radius of the explosion nearer to Bee is not as big and can easily be avoided by going invisible and flying upward, crossing kilometers within seconds is not necessary unless he stays at an unnecesarily long range from which he can't jinton snipe from anyway. Bijuu waves do actually take a significant amount of prep time given by how many panels were shown of Bee charging up the attack

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, which is enough time for Mu to go invisible and fly upward above Bee to avoid the attack.

Ok, but that is if he can do so before the TBB lands on him,

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is a clear indication that their speed is immense
moreover if onoki does manage to lower the earth wiith mobile core, then bee can still fire off a TBB within close proximity to onokis whereabouts, which will certainly kill him

Onoki is not redirecting the TBB, he may be able to change their trajectory and thats if and only if hes granted kitsuchis doton feats, but he is not rediirecting them right back at bee

Onoki can lower the ground below quick enough, and he can redirect TBBs with his Doton feats, but upon further thought I think it's a bad idea for Onoki to remain on the ground, especially due to the Third Raikage's presence.

Thats debatable,
like you have seen, the TBB has enough speed to cover the entire sea within seconds,
and also has enough speed to cover the entire konoha in a mere second

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deidara on the other hand was pressured by hebi sasukes flight speed which isnt something nearly as fast as his shunshin, which is inferior to third raikages speed as well,
and there is also the notion that while the TBB may be evaded by the duo, they are stilll not evading the explosion itself

I agree with this. By going invisible, though, Mu should be able to dodge bijuudamas since Bee wouldn't know where to direct them nor when to make them explode

Whirlwind alone would get rid of the doton clones they are non factor here

Whirlwind is a death sentence here since in the time it takes to

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he could be killed by a jinton from either Onoki or Mu, since that formation leaves him a sitting duck as he can't dodge and he can't counter with bijuudamas either. Rock clones are far from non factor they can fly and therefore stay at a long range, their very presence is a help as Bee can't tell which is the real Onoki and then is forced to focus on them one at a time, buying Mu or the real Onoki time to vaporize him with jinton

If Onoki attempts to get close to the hachibi then he gets wrecked by the raiakges nukite, which would certainly be landing seeing how the raikage is still faster then him,
or the hachibi would smack it around with its physical attacks

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, and

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, both of the entities that are far more durable then onoki or muu

and like i said above, the doton clones just get poofed by a whirlwind, using this doesnt make him become an easy target for jinton either,

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and lastly,

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which can still be done even if onoki gets lucky enough to immobilise the hachibi,

I agree now that flying around and using jinton is the best way for Team Rock to win, not using Onoki's earth techniques or coming close to the Hachibi. As I explained earlier Bee can be killed by jinton before he gets his whirlwind off, especially since he has to go BM mode before he can perform this

 

[ARGUS]

How is blocking Amaterasu even relevant here? Bee saw the attack coming and he blocked it, against Mu he cannot detect him fast enough to necessarily see the attack coming and react, nor can he block jinton like he did with Amaterasu. Mu flies behind Bee and nukes him with jinton before Bee even realizes anything.

Its relevant because amaterasu is much faster than any of Muu or Onokis attacks, and when he has reacted to that means that he is certainly reacting to the tsuchikages
furthermore Muus invisible attacks are non factor here when they are not sufficient against either bee or the raikage,
and him flying behind to fire jinton means that he becomes visible therefore the raikage reacts and bee uses the Bijuu Wave to blow him up,

Let's see here how exactly is the Third Raikage even going to touch flying opponents? The fact remains that Bee will not be able to detect Mu in time to avoid getting vaporized, even if the Third Raikage instantly notices Mu when he becomes visible (unlikely), he still will not be able to warn Bee, who needs to form and launch bijuudamas back at Mu, in the time it takes for Mu to form a jinton. Having two sets of eyes doesn't mean either of them can detect Mu quickly enough.

The bold is wrong, very wrong
Jintons formation is much slower than the formation of TBB, and unlike TBB it cant be fired at rapid successions either, therefore muu gets eradicated before bee does,
and the raikage would certainly notice muu becoming visible when his reflexes are still very impressive, and any of the smaller jintons are evaded by him rather easily

claiming that third raikage (who is on par with V1 Ay), and bee (who reacted to amaterasu) being lol jinton sniped by muu is unheard of and makes no sense

Bijuudamas are not that much quicker to use than jinton. That scan you posted doesn't prove anything since Bee probably started forming the TBB while he was still in the air so when he touched down he already had it compeleted.

how is that not fast?
he got knocked back, and formed 4 TBB the second he got up, even if he was forming them when he is getting attacked (which doesnt make much sense) the time frame in which he formed continous TBB is still fast
moreover, not only is a single TBB higher in magnitude and DC to a jinton but firing 4 of them would be far too much for the tsuchikages,

Onoki's jinton speed is

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, only a clap of the hands and a couple seconds of chakra is needed to form one,

Jinton this small is not doing shit when it would even be evaded by the hachibi or he can also use his tentacles to block it,

and considering Onoki

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it proves it doesn't take a significantly long time to fire off a jinton.

Bee still fired off continous TBB in that exact time frame,
4 TBB > Jinton especially when the collision between 1 TBB and jinton alone would form an explosion, whilst the other TBB would go right through and eradicate the kages

Onoki can also distract him by forming several rock bunshins and have them each fly off in different directions. We know his flight speed is at least equal to that of Deidara's bird. Both TBB and BW are directional attacks, meaning Bee has to be facing his opponent to shoot off an attack at them, and as we can see

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the areas above, behind, and to the sides of the Hachibi are completely unaffected by the explosion, so - by having four or more clones fly in opposite directions and surround him, they can't be all targeted at once. Bee would have to focus on them one at a time, which easily buys Mu or Onoki enough time to kill him with jinton.

Onoki is not firing off a jinton whilst having several doton clones out,
especially when muu couldnt even use jinton while being halved,
furthermore doton clones are garbage when they are poofed by a whirlwind immediately, using them as diversions isnt helping when WW repels them and one shots them, and when its AOE is large enough to get to onoki and muu either way,
so a jinton snipe whilst having clones out is just not happening

I agree

as you can see

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the radius of the explosion nearer to Bee is not as big and can easily be avoided by going invisible and flying upward, crossing kilometers within seconds is not necessary unless he stays at an unnecesarily long range from which he can't jinton snipe from anyway.

incorrect, thats not an explosion thats the attack itself,

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and as you can see its immense
onoki and muu simply dont have the speeed to evade its range, nor do they have the durability to tank the attack even if they are away from its epicentre

Bijuu waves do actually take a significant amount of prep time given by how many panels were shown of Bee charging up the attack

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, which is enough time for Mu to go invisible and fly upward above Bee to avoid the attack.

Ok, but bee wont fire off the BW at a target he cant even see, if he does fire off, then he can still fire it at muus previous location and there is still a chance that the blast itself may reach muu

Onoki can lower the ground below quick enough, and he can redirect TBBs with his Doton feats, but upon further thought I think it's a bad idea for Onoki to remain on the ground, especially due to the Third Raikage's presence.

Yes, however, what doton feats are you giviing to onoki here?
his dotons are not sufficent enough to redirect the TBB at all,

I agree with this. By going invisible, though, Mu should be able to dodge bijuudamas since Bee wouldn't know where to direct them nor when to make them explode

he wont fiire them at an opponent he cant even see,

Whirlwind is a death sentence here since in the time it takes to

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he could be killed by a jinton from either Onoki or Mu, since that formation leaves him a sitting duck as he can't dodge and he can't counter with bijuudamas either. Rock clones are far from non factor they can fly and therefore stay at a long range, their very presence is a help as Bee can't tell which is the real Onoki and then is forced to focus on them one at a time, buying Mu or the real Onoki time to vaporize him with jinton

Nope, WW isnt a bad idea at all,
nor does it take a long time to form, when all bee has to do is wrap itself within its tentacles,
furthermore its a repulsive force, it will repel away and poof the clones especially when it was still powerful enough to immobilise the edo jins, and its radius is large enough to ensure that the clones are gone,
even the tsuchikages are being repelled away by it, allowing the hachibi to bombard them with TBB or BW,

furthermore onoki firing off jinton along with having many doton clones is just unheard of, when he doesnt have the reserves to do such a thing, especially when the manga has implied that jinton takes alot of chakra to use,

I agree now that flying around and using jinton is the best way for Team Rock to win, not using Onoki's earth techniques or coming close to the Hachibi. As I explained earlier Bee can be killed by jinton before he gets his whirlwind off, especially since he has to go BM mode before he can perform this

glad that you have seen the light
@Bold - not really,

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and its repulsive nature can dispel their charge up for jinton and blow them away,
not to mention that bee has already showed that he can go BM rather quickly and the raikage has the speed to evade most of the jintons as well

 

[Beans2]

Its relevant because amaterasu is much faster than any of Muu or Onokis attacks, and when he has reacted to that means that he is certainly reacting to the tsuchikages
furthermore Muus invisible attacks are non factor here when they are not sufficient against either bee or the raikage,
and him flying behind to fire jinton means that he becomes visible therefore the raikage reacts and bee uses the Bijuu Wave to blow him up,

I said it already and I'll say it again, Bee reacted against Amaterasu and blocked it because he saw it coming. If Mu flies up behind or above Bee, and becomes visible to prepare a jinton, Bee will be looking the other way and therefore not see it coming. If he doesn't see it coming, he can't react to it - simple as that. The Raikage can't do shit here since Mu can fly so he can't touch him - and having two sets of eyes does not mean that Mu will be spotted the instant he becomes visible. Absolute worst case scenario, Mu becomes visible to prepare jinton, Raikage somehow spots him immediately, verbally warns Bee, who has to turn around, then prepare a bijuu wave, and then fire it against Mu. And that won't all happen in the time it takes to prepare a jinton.

@Bold, Lol, when did I ever, use that in my argument?

The bold is wrong, very wrong
Jintons formation is much slower than the formation of TBB, and unlike TBB it cant be fired at rapid successions either, therefore muu gets eradicated before bee does,
and the raikage would certainly notice muu becoming visible when his reflexes are still very impressive, and any of the smaller jintons are evaded by him rather easily

claiming that third raikage (who is on par with V1 Ay), and bee (who reacted to amaterasu) being lol jinton sniped by muu is unheard of and makes no sense

As I've already said, jinton formation being slower than TBB formation is totally irrelevant. Mu's first target is Bee, he doesn't give a shit about the Raikage, him and Onoki can just ignore him and deal with him at the end of the battle since the Raikage can't touch him. You are telling me, that when Mu becomes visible to use jinton in Bee's blind spot, the Third Raikage will somehow notice him instantly because "his reflexes are still very impressive", then verbally warn Bee, who will turn around, load up a TBB, then fire it off at Mu - before Mu gets a single jinton off? Lol. Add onto this the fact that Onoki would be distracting Bee from the front as well, and if Bee decides to ignore this distraction he gets turned to dust. If he decides to focus on Onoki long enough to load up a TBB and kill him, he gets killed by a jinton from behind by Mu.

how is that not fast?
he got knocked back, and formed 4 TBB the second he got up, even if he was forming them when he is getting attacked (which doesnt make much sense) the time frame in which he formed continous TBB is still fast
moreover, not only is a single TBB higher in magnitude and DC to a jinton but firing 4 of them would be far too much for the tsuchikages,

Jinton this small is not doing shit when it would even be evaded by the hachibi or he can also use his tentacles to block it,

Bee still fired off continous TBB in that exact time frame,
4 TBB > Jinton especially when the collision between 1 TBB and jinton alone would form an explosion, whilst the other TBB would go right through and eradicate the kages

My point is that you are underrating jinton's speed and acting like it takes a long ass time to prepare when it can vaporize a huge area in seconds. It doesn't matter if TBB speed is faster (I never said it wasn't) because the two techniques are never going to come head to head, Mu can very likely blindside Bee with a sneak jinton before Bee even notices Mu's location. The fact is Bee won't be able to locate Mu quickly enough to counter jinton with a TBB.

Onoki is not firing off a jinton whilst having several doton clones out,
especially when muu couldnt even use jinton while being halved,
furthermore doton clones are garbage when they are poofed by a whirlwind immediately, using them as diversions isnt helping when WW repels them and one shots them, and when its AOE is large enough to get to onoki and muu either way,
so a jinton snipe whilst having clones out is just not happening

@Bold: may I ask why not? His chakra feats disagree. Mu halving himself is a completely different jutsu, completely different story.

Oh, it's not like the clones can fly out of range of the whirlwind?

incorrect, thats not an explosion thats the attack itself,

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and as you can see its immense
onoki and muu simply dont have the speeed to evade its range, nor do they have the durability to tank the attack even if they are away from its epicentre

That scan doesn't disagree with me at all, you can still see that the areas above, behind, and to the sides of Bee are completely unaffected. Mu/Onoki only won't be able to avoid it if they are at an unnecessarily long range.

Ok, but bee wont fire off the BW at a target he cant even see, if he does fire off, then he can still fire it at muus previous location and there is still a chance that the blast itself may reach muu

he wont fiire them at an opponent he cant even see,

If you are agreeing with me that Bee won't fire it off at a target he can't see then what is your point?

Yes, however, what doton feats are you giviing to onoki here?
his dotons are not sufficent enough to redirect the TBB at all,

I'm talking about

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which even a fodder was able to perform on a

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Nope, WW isnt a bad idea at all,
nor does it take a long time to form, when all bee has to do is wrap itself within its tentacles,
furthermore its a repulsive force, it will repel away and poof the clones especially when it was still powerful enough to immobilise the edo jins, and its radius is large enough to ensure that the clones are gone,
even the tsuchikages are being repelled away by it, allowing the hachibi to bombard them with TBB or BW,

furthermore onoki firing off jinton along with having many doton clones is just unheard of, when he doesnt have the reserves to do such a thing, especially when the manga has implied that jinton takes alot of chakra to use,

In the time it takes for Bee to wrap himself in tentacles and start spinning, a jinton can be fired off at him leaving him with a gaping hole through his body.

I didn't say many doton clones, just three or four is enough. Onoki actually has pretty decent reserves, he vaporized a forest with jinton when low on chakra and used jinton at least 3 times against Madara, plus multiple rock golems, plus repeated uses of weighted-rock technique, not counting the times he used jinton, clones, mutiple uses of weighted-rock technique, and stopped a meteor earlier that day. Even if he can't use jinton with clones out, Mu still can use it.

glad that you have seen the light
@Bold - not really,

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and its repulsive nature can dispel their charge up for jinton and blow them away,
not to mention that bee has already showed that he can go BM rather quickly and the raikage has the speed to evade most of the jintons as well.

Since Onoki

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I think it's fair to say he can land a jinton on Bee before he repels them with whirlwind.

Raikage is dealt with at the end of the battle after Bee is killed, although landing an attack on him would be tricky because of his speed. Mu could always trick him and split in half then make one body go invisible, so when Raikage kills one body and thinks he's won the battle he deactivates raiton armour then gets an invisible sword through his brain or neck.