MS Obito vs Mu

[Benjamin King]

Apex made a good point. Until I see a good refute argument, Sharingan will see through the invisibility, as there is no evidence Mu can erase the existence of his Chakra; otherwise, how did Madara beat him and Onoki?

 

[Beans2]

Apex made a good point. Until I see a good refute argument, Sharingan will see through the invisibility, as there is no evidence Mu can erase the existence of his Chakra; otherwise, how did Madara beat him and Onoki?

I will refute him in a few hours. And I think Madara genjutsu-sniped Onoki right off the bat, I have a theory if you would like me to post it.

 

[Benjamin King]

I will refute him in a few hours. And I think Madara genjutsu-sniped Onoki right off the bat, I have a theory if you would like me to post it.

Shinobi made methods of fighting Sharingan Genjutsu, so no. And don't try to use anime.

 

[maniaoqan]

So Mu can in fact use jinton while invisible?

Jinton requires concentration. If he was able to use it while invisible he would've in the manga. Probably he can't maintain both at the same time.

 

[Haizaki]

The jins were surrounding bee

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, then kokuo knocked bee across the battlefield

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. Then after obito failed to warp away naruto he summoned his jins back to him

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.

Nah the Jins definitely saw them. Considering they came from behind and the Jins were behind Obito as well. There's really no reason why they wouldn't have seen. We see them surrounding B and then they leave him. No reason to why they won't have seen him. The fact that the 5 tails knocked B forward is the more reason why he'd have seen the 2 given the direction the came from.

These scans tell me that the jins weren't anywhere near obito when he tried to warp away naruto, thus they didn't see gai. Also to add, whenever shared vision is used there is emphasis on the eyes that do see the enemy. [

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] [

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] Yet there was no indication that it was used here.

The emphasis doesn't have to be shown in this case though.

Not sure what you're saying in the first sentence, are you saying that obito has some form of sensory abilities?

But muu can't time it, remember it took minato an instantaneous jutsu, perfect timing, & provoking obito to run at him in order to hit him before he became intangible. Minato set the conditions but he still needed to be instant to pull it off. Now in this case obito has control of when he wants to turn it off/on, he isn't directly attacking muu, & muu doesn't have an instantaneous [or close to] attacking speed. If we include the fact that muu has to first sense where obito is before he can attack him then there's no possible way he's going to land any hit in that time.

You have a point really. How about Mu exploiting the Kamui time limit though>

 

[Beans2]

Shinobi made methods of fighting Sharingan Genjutsu, so no. And don't try to use anime.

Trust me hon, I only rely on mangaphux. On my phone rn so I'll post it when I get on a computer.

 

[maniaoqan]

No chakra means no chakra. Erasing his chakra signature is what it is, thus there is nothing for the Sharingan to see.




I don't know, nor do I care as it was all off panel. Stop trying to use off panel events as some form of evidence, not how it works.

Manga disagrees. Mu's version is more advanced because while he's using the jutsu., "He has no chakra" If it worked how you believed it worked, then there'd literally be no difference from the Iwa ninja's Jutsu, but there is and the manga has made it clear that there is. So no Dojutsu is seeing him.

Than how can he fly without chakra genius ?

 

[Apêx1]

Another thing to note is the DB.

Main text

This is one ninja escape technique among others. One controls how light is reflected around their body with chakra inflections. Donning such an "escape gear", one might as well not be there at all. Perceiving the caster's position is impossible with normal eyes, and only Sharingan, Byakugan and the like can see through it.

Caption

-Fusing with the landscape, concealing one's breath, erasing one's shadow!!

Even though this is a more advanced version, fact remains that it simply conceals and doesn't erase, as erasing is impossible to do. He may be capable of erasing his chakra signature, but he can't erase the chakra itself. As the DB states, to conceal his form, he uses chakra inflections, meaning chakra is still required to conceal form, and nothing indicates he conceals his form by other means, thus the Sharingan sees him.

It is perceivable with a dojutsu. Not to mention, Karin can do something similar [

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]. Also, when Kabuto is speaking about Mu in the VIZ, he claims Mu had "neither form nor chakra." [

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] Clearly, Mu has form since Contact sensing works on him, thus Kabuto was essentially speaking in a sensing manner, since you can't sense his form nor chakra, but should have no reason not to be able to perceive it with a Dojutsu.

 

[Beans2]

Another thing to note is the DB.



Even though this is a more advanced version, fact remains that it simply conceals and doesn't erase, as erasing is impossible to do. He may be capable of erasing his chakra signature, but he can't erase the chakra itself. As the DB states, to conceal his form, he uses chakra inflections, meaning chakra is still required to conceal form, and nothing indicates he conceals his form by other means, thus the Sharingan sees him.

It is perceivable with a dojutsu. Not to mention, Karin can do something similar [

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]. Also, when Kabuto is speaking about Mu in the VIZ, he claims Mu had "neither form nor chakra." [

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] Clearly, Mu has form since Contact sensing works on him, thus Kabuto was essentially speaking in a sensing manner, since you can't sense his form nor chakra, but should have no reason not to be able to perceive it with a Dojutsu.

Regarding the databook: we don't even know if Mu and Taiseki use the same technique. Pretty sure the only source that says so is Narutopedia, and that's obviously not reliable since it's written by fans. Pain's chameleon and 2nd Mizukage's clam can also go invisible, that doesn't mean it's the same technique. Kishimoto probably wrote that databook description before he had even came up with the idea of a character named Mu. The only similarity is that Mu and Taiseki were both Iwa-nin.

You also posted the same scan twice. You should edit that.

 

[Apêx1]

Regarding the databook: we don't even know if Mu and Taiseki use the same technique. Pretty sure the only source that says so is Narutopedia, and that's obviously not reliable since it's written by fans. Pain's chameleon and 2nd Mizukage's clam can also go invisible, that doesn't mean it's the same technique. Kishimoto probably wrote that databook description before he had even came up with the idea of a character named Mu. The only similarity is that Mu and Taiseki were both Iwa-nin.

You also posted the same scan twice. You should edit that.

It works the same way, and even then, the only way that's ever been showcased to make a user lose his form to go invisible is chakra inflections, and until another way is illustrated, it remains that way. Doesn't matter either, because they're all visible by the sharingan. That's assuming Kishi didn't pre-write the script or characters. Either way, as long as Karin has shown to suppress her chakra from sensing means, others who have wanted to use camouflage have required concealed chakra inflections, and the viability of chakra sensing simply being a means of feeling the chakra to a greater extent, as I showed before, it is only logical to assume that Mu is no different and gets seen with his present chakra. Shinobi's die from chakra depletion for a reason, Mu simply conceals himself and his chakra, he doesn't erase it.

And my bad, here [

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].

 

[Beans2]

About to leave for swim practice, will reply tomorrow or later tonight if I have time. In the meantime, would you explain exactly what the difference is between erasing chakra and a chakra signature? I thought that a chakra signature simply was the "type" of chakra that each person has (reason why sensors can distinguish between Person A's chakra and person B's chakra).

 

[ARGUS]

What? The SA have no way of sensing heat changes or shifts of air when he's not even close to them.. If he wants to attack Obito, he's going to have to get close, and to get close means to actually move, to actually move means that you are creating shifts in the air, unless you are claiming he's in a seperate dimension while Invisible, Lol. In the scan of him Warping to the Raikiri Kunai, he didn't see anything as he was clearly looking at Naruto, whereas the Raikiri came from a 90 degree angle towards him, definitely out of his LoS. So no, shifts in the air still occur, heat change is still occurring since you can't hide something like that. The only thing he is hiding is his chakra and the light that passes through him, the rest is still present unless you can prove otherwise, as I have no reason to prove shifts in the air disappear, and no reason to believe he can lower his body temperature to match that of the atmosphere.

i dont see what fanfic you're using which will enable obiitto to attack muu?
shifts in air are not enough for obito to attack muu, he is not attacking someone who he cant see
and Lol you do know that Rairkir kunai has raiton infused in it, meaning that there is more than enough sound for obito to be able to tell that the kunai is coming right at him

muus movements would barely have any sound, nor would obito be able to properly locate him, let alone attack him, before he gets wrecked, and if obito randomly activates intangibility, then muu can just keep his distance away, since he wont be able to sense him,
annd the use of fission allows muu to attack him from both directions meaning that obito has no chance

You have to remember that Naruto characters move at hypersonic speeds. If someone is running at 10m/s behind you and you don't hear or see anything, you can still feel wind move past you. Multiply that till you reach hypersonic speeds and you'll know why Obito can react to people he doesn't see.

How is this proving anything,
again you have failed to tell me how obito can even attack muu,
just because he activated intangibility towards a clear visible target doesnt mean he can do this against muu,

Yeah

Lol There's absolutely no way that muu is going to hit obito during that minuscule window of time, not to mention obito can deactivate intangibility at any time within the 5 minutes so all he has to do to reset it is change locations.

Lmao, again, how is obito able to tell where muu is?
how is obito even attacking muu to begin with?
and what are you on about, muu uses fission, to attack him from multiple directions,
obitos fanfic perceptions are not enough for him to attack muu

Also based on feats it's possible that muu may not even be able to sense obito as he resets, let alone track his location & then land a lethal blow.

Lol, THe moment obito sends an even slight part of his body to the real dimension, then muu senses him,,
its as simple as that,
just how hinata was able to locate obito once he solidified
he locates him, then proceeds to attack tobi through his sword

& As I posted before there have been multiple times where obito used intangibility to avoid attacks he had no clue were coming, so invisibility is useless & muu can't touch him.

Nope, unless you prove me this fanfic way of obito attacking muu,then he isnt doing shit,
obito reacting to the raikiri is also not effective since the sound assosciated with the raiton clearly enabled him to be wary of the attack,
and obito is also not attacking an opponent who he has no way whatsoever to locate or see,

muus presense is hidden and would no where near be as obvious as the examples ur stating, meaning that obito gets killed without him being able to do anything at all

the use of fission just makes it easier for muu, ​

 

[Apêx1]

About to leave for swim practice, will reply tomorrow or later tonight if I have time. In the meantime, would you explain exactly what the difference is between erasing chakra and a chakra signature? I thought that a chakra signature simply was the "type" of chakra that each person has (reason why sensors can distinguish between Person A's chakra and person B's chakra).

Erasing your chakra signature is not useful against a Dojutsu user as the Dojutsu user can still see chakra, he just can't see whose chakra it is. Given the fact it's a 1v1, he has no reason to assume it is anyone bar Mu. So yes, you are correct. Though, if he can't erase his chakra completely like many claim he can, then he gets seen with the Dojutsu.

 

[ARGUS]

Erasing your chakra signature is not useful against a Dojutsu user as the Dojutsu user can still see chakra, he just can't see whose chakra it is. Given the fact it's a 1v1, he has no reason to assume it is anyone bar Mu. So yes, you are correct. Though, if he can't erase his chakra completely like many claim he can, then he gets seen with the Dojutsu.

Nope,

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hence why, no tracking or sensing methods bar contact sensing would work against him,
sharingan is not seeiing chakra when its completely erased

had muus chakra not been hidden, then the sensing unit of the alliance would have been able to locate him, since normal sensing methods work on the basis of sensing chakra,
and

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with

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, means that shraingan is never locating him,

Hence concluding that obito has no way of attacking muu, and gets killed

 

[Penguin]

Madara butt raped him and Onoki. Obviously the sharingan can still see his chakra network, even if sensors cannot sense the chakra.

 

[Beans2]

Madara butt raped him and Onoki. Obviously the sharingan can still see his chakra network, even if sensors cannot sense the chakra.

Fail only Byakugan can see chakra networks.

 

[Haizaki]

Mizukage gave him problems to the extent where they killed each other....Let me guess, Mizukage could see his chakra too? He could sense? ...Not to mention Madara is a sensor.

 

[ARGUS]

Mizukage gave him problems to the extent where they killed each other....Let me guess, Mizukage could see his chakra too? He could sense? ...Not to mention Madara is a sensor.

That's because muu can't see through the mirage
Whilst the mizukage can't locate muu
So it's a 2-way dilemma. It would've been great to see their fight in the manga

And no, EMS madara is not really a sensor

 

[Penguin]

Fail only Byakugan can see chakra networks.

Wow. I cannot believe I forgot that. z.z

I am rusty. ;-;

 

[Apêx1]

Nope,

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hence why, no tracking or sensing methods bar contact sensing would work against him,
sharingan is not seeiing chakra when its completely erased

had muus chakra not been hidden, then the sensing unit of the alliance would have been able to locate him, since normal sensing methods work on the basis of sensing chakra,
and

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with

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, means that shraingan is never locating him,

Hence concluding that obito has no way of attacking muu, and gets killed

No, the VIZ never stated his presence disappears, only his form and chakra. Saying form disappears is speaking in a context of sensing means, thus chakra would be too. You cannot make your form disappear and still get sensed by contact methods, because that would imply you do in fact have a form. Obvious sensing context is obvious.
Chakra cannot be erased, every invisibility ability ever used uses chakra inflections to achieve invisibility. Not to mention chakra depletion causes death, don't see how Mu could survive with no chakra.

No, I already showed you Karin doing the same thing in terms of hiding her chakra. Doesn't mean her chakra disappeared, she simply suppressed it. Chakra presence is seen no matter how small and distant [

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] [

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]. So no, his presence is not hidden completely, and he still has chakra inflections being used to make him invisible. Prove otherwise.