MS Kakashi vs Tsunade

[Akasuna]

I'm still not seeing any arguments for Tsunade that haven't been countered.

 

[BlacLord™]

3T Kakashi alone is enough to beat an unrestricted Tsunade mid diff. Kamui isn't needed. He's faster, has sharingan precog, has brilliant bunshin feats that have fooled dojutsu users in the past and very versatile. He can use his genjutsu or ration clone feints to paralyse her for a few moments, and then finish her off with Raiden.

I have to agree with this.

 

[Black Wolf]

@Black Wolf
Whilst I agree with everything you wrote, I wouldn't be using the databook speed stats to boost your argument. The reason being that it only looks at your ordinary movement speed, and not the "shunshin" speed-as that requires chakra. Still, Kakashi is far faster than Tsunade by feats in the manga so that's sufficient.

I still stand by what I said. Shunshin usage requires top tier reflexes to be used effectively, and Tsunade does not have impressive reflexes.

To best explain this, I'll point you back to the Chidori conundrum kid Kakashi had. Why did Minato state that Kakashi's Chidori was an incomplete technique? Because he was moving faster than his reflexes could keep up with, which makes the user an easy target for getting counter-attacked. Kakashi's Raikiri-charges are essentially Shunshins, far faster than his normal running speed, which is why he needs Sharingan to be able to perceive his surroundings / enemies when running at that speed.

So, yes, in theory Tsunade can utilize Shunshins that allow her to move above her 3.5 tier speed. Chances are she will leave herself open for a counterattack due to inability to perceive / react when moving at that artificially enhanced speed.

 

[Strict]

The question is whether Tsunade would manage to get away from Kakashi's sight, as the space is drawn in. Deidara was fast end flexible enough to outmaneuver Gaara's sand, yet couldn't free himself from the suction. Though Deidara was in a better position than Tsunade would be if the space around her body starts to draw in. She probably wouldn't just be able to jump away as the center of Kamui.

 

[LuckyMan]

Tsunade has absolutely no speed feats in the Madara battle that put her above Kakashi. "Blitzing" a clone off-panel that not only may have taken the combined effort of multiple Kage as well as it being Madara's intention to bait her is not a speed feat. "Blitzing" a Madara that was being attacked by 3 other Kage is also not a speed feat.

Sorry, the general speed feats she shown throughout the fight puts her equal to if not above Kakashi. Speed feats is not all about "Blitzing" someone.

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A+B Shows the distance between her and Madara and how she was able to close it in just 2 panels. C shows that when Mei shot Madara into the sky with her Water Dragon, Tsunade was not even that scan, only Onoki and Ay were right behind him but Tsunade's attack landed at the same time there's did, despite Onoki making Ay lighter to increase his speed. D+E shows when she punched Wood Clone Madara. You said Madara baited her. That's false because he admitted he had to use a clone in order to escape being defeated so no, he was not baiting her, he needed to use that and it proves she cornered him quicker than what A+B (where he had time to put up Susanoo). Do I think it was a team effort? It could have been, but it also couldn't have been. I'm working with what the manga is giving me and I see nothing that indicates any of the Hokage helped her pull that off. F shows that she was able to take on 5 Madara at one time. That itself is are speed feats. G shows that she moved faster than any of the Kage could react to (Ay was in base so thats probbaly why he couldn't). Notice Mei can't even weave a hand sea and when Tsunade does stop the attack, all of the Kage are in the same position they were in the first scan. Another speed feat. Only their movement speed is comparable, when it comes to fight speed Kakashi has no chance, and is why CQC is a deathwish for him.

There is absolutely no basis for her going from a 3.5 to above a 4.5 Sharingan user.

Yeah and like I said before, Kishi has made it clear characters are not what they look like on paper. You go ahead though and keep holding number graphs above all else, I'll actually use the fights and feats we see.

So basically, Tsunade is immune to Genjutsu because she is Tsunade, even though we have seen Kakashi's Genjutsu immobilize Zabuza mid-battle and force Gai to create an entire fighting style to counter it. Fighting Susano'o clones that weren't trying isn't evidence of Genjutsu immunity.

No one is immune to Genjutsu. Tsunade isn't fallng for any Genjutsu Kakashi might pull with his 3 tomoe. Now you make an excuse to why she was not put under Genjutsu. The Susanoo clones put Ay in a Genjutsu and were about to kill him until Onoki stepped in so I would highly disagree when you say "they weren't trying". They couldn't even put Ay in a Genjutsu to begin with until he let his guard down! Its a poor excuse on your part to make Tsunade look less than what she actually is (like most people do). 5 Madara could not land a Genjutsu on her period, even with the ability to pick her up and immobilize her to make it easier as he did Ay so please cut the bullshit of putting her under some weak ass 3 tomoe Genjutsu.

They are superior in raw power. They are not superior in speed or skill at all, and if they were, they weren't showing it. Madara isn't 25 times faster than Kakashi.

Madara is superior to Kakashi in literally every way. Please don't deny this, you're making yourself look silly now. Kakashi can't even beat 1 Susanoo Clone lol.

Kakashi does not use his clones like Madara does; he uses them for diversion. The real Kakashi hides underground via Doton tunneling, sends a clone out to distract her, and then nails her while she is distracted or immobilized by Raiton Kage Bunshin paralysis.

One punch from Tsuande will create a shockwave and blow away Kakashi, his clone he has out, and him underground. Once again, stop with the whole "he distracts her" stuff. Its not happening. Multitasking on 5 Madara eclipses anything Kakashi can use on her, by a long shot.

Tsunade has no knowledge on Kamui, and Kakashi can simply cancel the Kamui if he sees her kicking up dust. He isn't going to proceed with the technique if it is obvious he is going to miss.

Except that even when he forms the barrier around his target he's still going to experience the chakra drain. So yeah, cancelling it is useless, once he forms the barrier with his chakra, its gone, if the target is sucked in or not as seen when he tried to warp the Mazo's head and when Obito cancelled it, he still felt the chakra loss. This no intel works both ways, Kakashi has no knowledge of her 100 Healings and when he thinks hes killed her with Lightning Blade in her chest, hes dead.

So Tsunade now has Raiton immunity on top of Genjutsu immunity?

Tsunade sends sparks of electricity into the user's nervous system. It does not produce any visible Raiton and is by no means an actual Raiton, thus why the databook does not give her Raiton affinity nor is the technique classified as Raiton. There is no basis to give Tsunade Raiton affinity and immunity based on a pseudo-electric technique that may not even be a proper Raiton.

If someone can turn their chakra into electricity they have an affinity to Lightning. Not sure how you don't understand this. Oh and like I posted earlier, no one is immune to Genjutsu, Tsuande just moves and fights fast enough to avoid them, as seen in the Madara fight. She's also the Queen of chakra control, and thats all Genjutsu is.

So now Tsunade has Raikage level durability too and a Raiton shroud?

You have zero basis that Raikiri is bouncing off her. Mabui's technique covered her body in cuts whereas the Raikage in base was unaffected. Her durability is not comparable whatsoever. There is no basis for Tsunade being more durable than an average ninja, and even if she is, it is not by much.

Never said it would bounce off her. She had cuts on her body indeed but they are no where as severe as you make them out to be. They were actually so minimal thats after Mytoic healed her her chakra was still in forehead and she still had enough to use 100 Healings later. The average ninja is an Uzumaki Senju hybird? The average ninja tanks Super Almighty Push? The Average ninja tanks Kusanagi through the heart? The average ninja tanks Yaska Beads to the chest? Average ninja tanks Madara's Grand Fire Dragons? Average ninja survives speed of light movement? Average ninja survives being cut in half for hours? Summons while cut in half? Please stop posting.

Yeah, of course the tier 5 speed, 100% Genjutsu immune, Raiton immune, Raikage-level durability fan-fiction Tsunade you have in your head wins. The one in the manga? Not so much.

Haha funny how you took what I posted and didn't s it for what it was. You took the worst possible way to summarize what I said. You lost. Deal with it. Have a nice day.

 

[RedRobin]

I can see Tsunade taking this.

Since its early part 2 Kakashi then he will never get a chance for Kamui, as it needed time to be prepped. Time which Tsunade will not allow for when she continuously goes at him in CQC.

Raikiri usually always aimed at the heart and with no intel here, I dont see why he would go for the head, Tsunade will survive the blast to heart and Kakashi will be trapped and Tsunade will have the perfect opportunity to hit him.

Now with Sharigan genjustu, its the same situation where he blasts her heart while she is in the genjustu and it breaks her out of the genjustu and she survives which then leads to the same situation as above.

 

[Black Wolf]

A+B Shows the distance between her and Madara and how she was able to close it in just 2 panels.

Panels =/= time elapsed. Madara was standing still and showed no worry or concern about her assult.

C shows that when Mei shot Madara into the sky with her Water Dragon, Tsunade was not even that scan, only Onoki and Ay were right behind him but Tsunade's attack landed at the same time there's did,

I hope you are not insinuating that Tsunade is anywhere near the Raikage's ballpark in speed, let alone when lightened by Onoki.

Tsunade charged in a straight line; Onoki + Raikage outright flanked him. They had to traverse a larger distance than Tsunade did considering they had to circle around him as opposed to going straight at him. Tsunade also initiated her assault prior to them, and was standing ahead of them when she charged. You do not know when Onoki and Raikage began their assault relative to Tsunade.

You said Madara baited her. That's false because he admitted he had to use a clone in order to escape being defeated so no, he was not baiting her, he needed to use that and it proves she cornered him quicker than what A+B (where he had time to put up Susanoo).

Saying he was "forced" to use it is inherently false in this context.

One cannot be "forced" to use a clone in an example like this, where it was out from the get-go. The clone was in this case a pre-emptive measure that was used before getting punched. Madara already had the clone out before the clash, thus he could not have been "forced" to use it. The best argument you can make is that Madara was insecure enough in his playful mindset to have a clone out in case things went bad when he wasn't taking them seriously.

You also do not know what happened when she "blitzed" the clone. I am well-versed with the chapter, despite you posting single panels at a time. The fight cut away for several panels before returning to the scan of Tsunade punching him. You have no evidence that Tsunade was put into the position of landing a direct hit on Madara without outside aid.

Do I think it was a team effort? It could have been, but it also couldn't have been. I'm working with what the manga is giving me and I see nothing that indicates any of the Hokage helped her pull that off.

Mei launches a Suiton, Onoki and Raikage give him a weighted chop and send the ribcage flying towards Tsunade, and you do not see the team effort here? Three other Kages joining the assault is not a team effort?

F shows that she was able to take on 5 Madara at one time.

No.

It shows her taking on 4% Madara clones at a time that weren't necessarily putting in a significant amount of effort. Stop comparing mass shadow clone spam to the original; they are not at all comparable. Madara fodderized a Hashirama clone while sitting down using a ribcage-arm Susano'o. Kakashi's mass clones were, by his own word, not enough to physically fight off an army of no-name [fodder] mercenaries. Zabuza's clones were casually taken down by early Part I Sasuke with no Sharingan.

Stop trying to downplay the disparity of the original user's powers versus their power when they use a large number of shadow clones, especially when the original user in this case was casually sitting on a rock and was not in any way, shape, or form putting in any real effort into the fight.

That itself is are speed feats.

No it is not and with this I am beginning to wonder whether or not you even know what a speed feat is. Most of the fight occurred off-panel and Tsunade displayed no feats of speed in the limited time we see her fighting them.

The funny part is Tsunade was the only Kage that received significant damage from the Susano'o clones. She had two swords shoved in her gut and was slowly succumbing to exhaustion. Gaara only got hit when he multi-tasked by protecting Mei, and Raikage only got grabbed when he turned his attention away to Tsunade. Onoki outright beat his clones.

Considering Tsunade received the most damage out of any of the Kage, I have no idea how you take away from that that she is somehow fast and that she has "speed feats."

G shows that she moved faster than any of the Kage could react to (Ay was in base so thats probbaly why he couldn't).

No.

The Kage's have all been fighting for longer than Tsunade (Raikage fought Naruto/Bee, Onoki/Gaara fought Madara before she arrived and also fought Edo Kages, and Mei was fighting off Black Zetsu). Yes, they received healing but it most likely was not to 100%.

Furthermore, the other Kage do not have regenerative capabilities. Their first thought when they see fireballs isn't "lets run straight at the fireballs." Tsunade has the luxury of doing that due to Byakugo.

Only their movement speed is comparable, when it comes to fight speed Kakashi has no chance, and is why CQC is a deathwish for him.

There is no basis for Tsunade going from a 3.5 in speed to over a 4.5 when all she has done between DB3 and now is lay unconscious in a coma. The alleged speed feats you provide are weak at best, and not speed feats at all at worst. Kakashi is a tier faster than her and has Sharingan precognition to see her moves before they actually happen, and given her excessively linear style, she will get tagged.

Just look at Naruto vs. Sasuke at VoTE.

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He unlocks 3T Sharingan and

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. He was far slower to the extent Naruto was running around him, and with precog alone he compensated for that. Copy paste Sasuke predicting Raikage's elbow and nailing him in the gut with Chidori, and copy paste injured Sasuke cartwheeling over V1 Killer Bee in mid-air.

These are all examples where the slower fighter (Sasuke) dodges a significantly faster fighter purely due to Sharingan precognition. Here, Kakashi is the faster fighter and also has a Sharingan. Tsunade has no hopes of tagging him.

No one is immune to Genjutsu. Tsunade isn't fallng for any Genjutsu Kakashi might pull with his 3 tomoe. Now you make an excuse to why she was not put under Genjutsu. The Susanoo clones put Ay in a Genjutsu and were about to kill him until Onoki stepped in so I would highly disagree when you say "they weren't trying".

Tsunade was the slowest fighter of the Kage to the point she was having swords getting stuck in her gut. You have no evidence that Madara was actively trying to put her in a Genjutsu. Using the lack of Madara trying a Genjutsu on her as evidence that she is somehow impervious to Genjutsu is not an argument; it is literally just you declaring something with zero basis, which seems to be a trend here.

They couldn't even put Ay in a Genjutsu to begin with until he let his guard down!

Tsunade is not as fast as Raikage. Raikage has the luxury of being a hard target to make eye-contact with due to top-tier speed. Tsunade does not even approach the Raikage's tier in speed.

Its a poor excuse on your part to make Tsunade look less than what she actually is (like most people do). 5 Madara could not land a Genjutsu on her period, even with the ability to pick her up and immobilize her to make it easier as he did Ay so please cut the bullshit of putting her under some weak ass 3 tomoe Genjutsu.

What is bullshit is you coming to the conclusion that Genjutsu will magically not work on Tsunade just because she wasn't put into a Genjutsu against 4% Madara clones that weren't putting forth much effort to begin with (judging by Madara's expression throughout the battle).

Again, Raikage had to be pinned down because he was too fast. His movement speed makes it impossible to make eye-contact with him. This is a man who could outright Shunshin out of a Sharingan's field of view. Tsunade does not possess anywhere near that level of speed.

Madara is superior to Kakashi in literally every way. Please don't deny this, you're making yourself look silly now. Kakashi can't even beat 1 Susanoo Clone lol.

Yes, Madara is superior to Kakashi in every way. A 4% Madara clone, however, isn't. Outside of physical strength / striking power due to Susano'o, the clones displayed nothing above Kakashi in terms of speed, reflexes, Taijutsu, or other stats. Again, Zabuza was superior to Part I Sasuke in every way. His clones, however, were beaten down in seconds. Hashirama was stronger than Madara, yet Madara dealt with his clone sitting down with a fraction of his power.

Get it through your head that mass clone usage =/= each clone is equal to the original user. Clones experience significant weakening compared to the original user when used in large quantities.

One punch from Tsuande will create a shockwave and blow away Kakashi, his clone he has out, and him underground. Once again, stop with the whole "he distracts her" stuff. Its not happening. Multitasking on 5 Madara eclipses anything Kakashi can use on her, by a long shot.

Kakashi can see the ground above him and will strategically place his clone; he has full knowledge on Tsunade's striking power and has every reason to cater his fighting style towards avoiding her. If she punches a Raiton clone, she will get paralyzed and allow the real Kakashi to nail her in the skull.

Once again, Madara clones = / = Madara. Clones are significantly weaker than the original user, and in addition to that, Madara's entire demeanor throughout the battle was a toying one.

This no intel works both ways, Kakashi has no knowledge of her 100 Healings and when he thinks hes killed her with Lightning Blade in her chest, hes dead.

I assumed OP intended manga knowledge, which is the standard knowledge when knowledge is not specified. Kakashi has knowledge on her healing capabilities and has knowledge of her strong punches. He has no reason to risk not killing her properly; he will aim for the head to ensure he does not get pot-shotted by a surprise possum punch.

If someone can turn their chakra into electricity they have an affinity to Lightning. Not sure how you don't understand this.

Fanfiction. Tsunade's jutsu is not classified as a Raiton in the databook. It is a branch of medical jutsu. Not sure how you are classifying Tsunade as a Raiton user based on a dubious medical jutsu that isn't even classified as a Raiton in the DB. Furthermore, even if you are going to insist she is a Raiton user (which she isn't), it is laughable to put her on Sasuke or Kakashi's S-ranked level of Raiton manipulation. She isn't going to dispel high-level Raitons with her pseudo-electrical medical technique.

Oh and like I posted earlier, no one is immune to Genjutsu, Tsuande just moves and fights fast enough to avoid them, as seen in the Madara fight. She's also the Queen of chakra control, and thats all Genjutsu is.

So basically, Tsunade is as fast as shrouded Raikage despite a sub-par 3.5 in the databook.

Chakra control is great, but again, it is not Genjutsu immunity. You need to recognize Genjutsu and break out of it, and during that downtime, you are vulnerable for attack. Gai is familiar with the Kai method of dispelling Genjutsu and he still created an entire fighting style to counter Kakashi; he clearly thought that Kai was not enough. Kurenai, a Genjutsu master, nearly had her head separated from her body by Itachi when she struggled to break out of her own Genjutsu.

When one is stuck in a Genjutsu, no matter how great their chakra control is, there is a downtime, and during that downtime they are vulnerable to getting attacked.

Never said it would bounce off her. She had cuts on her body indeed but they are no where as severe as you make them out to be. They were actually so minimal thats after Mytoic healed her her chakra was still in forehead and she still had enough to use 100 Healings later. The average ninja is an Uzumaki Senju hybird? The average ninja tanks Super Almighty Push?

She had a slit throat and cuts all over her body. If she did not heal, she would have died due to blood loss. Only difference between her and other ninja is that she was able to heal immediately upon arrival whereas other ninja would simply bleed out and die due to lack of oxygen if their throat is slit.

Kakashi took several almighty pushes against Pain and still got up. Normal ninja are more durable than us. By normal ninja standards, Tsunade is not significantly above the ordinary, and I have no reason to believe Raikiri will have any less of an affect on her. She has never been shown or hyped for durability; only regeneration.

The Average ninja tanks Kusanagi through the heart? The average ninja tanks Yaska Beads to the chest? Average ninja tanks Madara's Grand Fire Dragons? Average ninja survives speed of light movement? Average ninja survives being cut in half for hours? Summons while cut in half? Please stop posting.

Please learn what tanking is before using it so liberally.

The Kusanagi went straight through her gut and out the other side. The Yasaka Magatama left a gaping hole in her gut. The Katons left burn marks on her arms. She healed this damage, not tanked it. Tanking is akin to what the Raikage, Kimimaro, and Domu Kakuzu are capable of; shrugging off an attack without taking significant damage.

Taking damage and healing it off isn't tanking. Unlike the ninja I mentioned above, Tsunade's skin is not harder than anyone else's, nor are her bones. She can heal damage, but if she is hit with a lethal attack (ala headshot) she will not be able to heal it since she will be dead. She has to be alive to activate regen, and Raikiri to the head is not something she can believable heal from.

Haha funny how you took what I posted and didn't s it for what it was. You took the worst possible way to summarize what I said. You lost. Deal with it. Have a nice day.

Yes, I lost. I was not aware that we are dealing with a Tsunade that:

(1) Has durability comparable to the Raikage
(2) Has speed comparable to the Raikage
(3) Has S-ranked Raiton capacity comparable to Kakashi / Sasuke
(4) Has regeneration with absolutely no limits, and immunity to decapitation
(5) Has a passive ability to avoid all Genjutsu

Yes, to this fan-fiction Tsunade of yours, any argument I pose will fall on deaf ears.

 

[Trúth]

Kakashi doesn't need Kamui for this. 3T is enough.

 

[Zexion~]

Non MS Kakashi solos

 

[TRE MERCER]

Kakashi still wins.