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Avani

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See I knew thsi was about some feminists BS but anyway, if you're speaking about nami getting constant compliments from sanji then I truly fail to see any "objectification" in that, It's rather good since he is parsing her beauty

Actually it is. Every single one of the strawhat had a good ambition thus far, and you can't merely dismiss nami's dream worthiness when all what sakura ever wanted was to be with sasuke, speaking about how small a dream is in not rEALLY advantageous to current argument. Nami as a character with such a big dream did always have great conviction to never give up on it, she never thought of abandoning it, not even once. Plus the true motivation for her dream was something she always had it naturally or rather was something she was born with, not something motivated by personal feelings like sakura.What makes ambitions important is how you manage to achieve your dreams and how hard it was for you to reach that point.


Sakura became a medic thanks to tsunade's training, it was never a talent she purely developed on her own, nami was always connected to maps and the sea, if anything money is the same to nami as being a medic is to sakura.:lol

never said it was everything, in fact a good ambition is one of the smallest things a decent character could offer, I only mentioned it to show how lowly her character really is, Even the true motivation of her dream is unknown according to kishi, Better yet he said she was "addicted".

Now that you mention it, I haven't read the chapter yet.

Well in nami's case she draws maps for the sake of her own ambition, hancock had already achieved everything she wanted, everything but being with luffy which she couldn't even be bothered about, as she's independent unlike a certain person.


Exactly which is why oda tend to give other characters and especially the strawhats a decent amount of development and even relevance at some points of the story, while kishi only focuses his hardest on naruto and sasuke, leaving the rest to either fill the plot holes or just support the main for extra details , and yeah you're correct, it was the story about naruto gradual growing up as character in the story but that didn't justify the poor treatment some characters had as they existed with naruto as well, almost everyone who read part 1 knew that k11 were completely and utterly stepped on by kishi.
Whatever floats your boat. Because every writer has a different deck to play with. What you are looking for in a story is subjective. What you want from Kishi's story and what Kishi wants to say by his story doesn't have to be the same.

Defending a personal preference over Kishi's, rather than looking if there's an actual flaw with the plot from a logical stand point are two different approaches. "I wanted Kishi to write it this way" is completely distinct argument from, "Kishi ought to have written x this way."

What you and me want doesn't affect Kishi for he has his own story to tell and he earned it by creating that verse and characters in the first place. They are there for the purpose of his story not ours. Sakura's love for Sasuke didn't make her good at chakra control. She was good at chakra control that's why she could become a medic and excelled at it because of hard work. Her initial motivation to be a ninja comes from her ninja background and her wish to make a place for herself in her team that compliments her team mates made her medic. Her being a successful medic doesn't depend on Sasuke. She has her own conviction to stand for Konoha that all the craze for Sasuke doesn't overcome whether she could actually kill him or not. From ideological POV she opposed him on that count. Whether you chose to ignore is up to you.

Unlike some other mangas by focusing the inner struggle of a small number, rather than spreading it across too many insignificant characters, Kishi shows how the actions of the previous generations can shape and mold the personalities of the present characters and their future. The mistakes that we can learn to avoid now, and the people that we hope to change in the future. And hope for the perfect understanding and empathy. It may be an almost Utopian dream but it was never a story of personal dreams.
 
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Scorps

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The way female chars are developed in Naruto, Fairy Tail, Bleach, One Piece, etc is simply linked to its genre. Regardless of agreeing with it or not, all of these shonen mangas follow the same suit. Lets look at stereotypes:

-Main Character: Male, hot headed, ridiculous power that is linked to a dark past event or story, everyone follows them because they don't give up, they have the power of feels. Naruto, Luffy, Natsu, Ichigo... Check.

-Secondary Female Character: soft spoken, smart and supposedly very skilled yet lacks power and determination, horrible temper which when triggered leads to ridiculous physical power, never gets as good as main character, always lets her feelings control her in tough decisions, gets sexualized as the story progresses and her power-ups are usually accompanied by reduction in her clothes' size. Sakura, Tsunade, Mei Terumi, Nami, Erza, Lucy, Rukya, Yoruichi, Ururu, Hiyori, etc etc. Check

-Elders: usually old powerhouses that take into teaching the new generations. They are usually male and perveted and counterparts to the main characters. They are always portraied as being stronger than they show but in the end, not as strong as the main char. Jiraya, Kisuke, Rayleigh, Makarov...

etc etc


The list of stereotypes goes on and on in various things. Its just how the genre works. Doesnt make it less enjoyable though. Or worse. Its like a criminal suspense triller book. You can't expect it to have layers and layers of romance. You expect it to have layers and layers of mistery and clinch situations. Its how it is.

the difference is how each author approaches the stereotypes.

In Naruto, Kishi tries to avoid it but ends up doing it just the same. Sakura is never really sexualized but she falls under the same other characteristics of her type of character. Tsunade on the other hand, is visually sexualized but never really acts like that. He only really develops the background of 4 female characters and never into a deep enough way. Tsunade, Konan, Hinata and Kushina. They have a supporting role towards the main male chars. For example, while we know a lot about Sakura...but at the same time, we know less from her than we do from Hinata's past. Parents, feelings, etc. We know little. Tsunade for example, we know a lot about the past she shared with Oro and jiraya but we don't even know who her parents were. And this is important as its actually a plot point that she is the grand daughter of the first hokage. So, who was the parent who was son or daught to the first? What happened to him or her? Why is he or she never mentioned, even by Tsunade herself? Or any other char? What about Karin? Little is know about her but she plays a significant part in the plot.

In OP, you ALWAYS get a background check on every female char. Always. It explains why they are like they are in that point of the story. It explains why they act like they act. Etc etc. We got it with all the main ones (Robin, Nami) but also the arc specific ones. However, they are way down in the food chain in terms of power and revelance and, excluding Robin, they are usually sexualized in one way or another. Nami is the main one to use her body to her own agenda. The difference is that its done in a more comedic fashion alongside the serious stuff. Thats perhaps what shapes OP in a unique way. The comedy works alongside the serious stuff all the time. Its tangled in and never feels forced. To me at least. Perhaps because we always get that background of story and seriousness.

In bleach, that is more visual than anything else. All female chars are sexualized to the extreme with few exceptions. In terms of their role and play in the story and their interaction with others, you don't feel that as much as with other manga. Its like its not noticed by other chars. But visually, its there more than in all others I feel.

In Fairy Tail there is no hiding it. No attempt. The female chars are developed in terms of story, yes, but they all have, regardless of their power level, the same archtype and they are all sexualized both in char and visually. Even poor wendy gets that treatment by constantly getting reminded of how her breasts are small. There is no attempt to make it otherwise. The female chars are developed in background for the most part but they also always fall on the same archtype.


But does it really matter? Its how it is. I enjoy them all the same.
 
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Avani

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The way female chars are developed in Naruto, Fairy Tail, Bleach, One Piece, etc is simply linked to its genre. Regardless of agreeing with it or not, all of these shonen mangas follow the same suit. Lets look at stereotypes:

-Main Character: Male, hot headed, ridiculous power that is linked to a dark past event or story, everyone follows them because they don't give up, they have the power of feels. Naruto, Luffy, Natsu, Ichigo... Check.

-Secondary Female Character: soft spoken, smart and supposedly very skilled yet lacks power and determination, horrible temper which when triggered leads to ridiculous physical power, never gets as good as main character, always lets her feelings control her in tough decisions, gets sexualized as the story progresses and her power-ups are usually accompanied by reduction in her clothes' size. Sakura, Tsunade, Mei Terumi, Nami, Erza, Lucy, Rukya, Yoruichi, Ururu, Hiyori, etc etc. Check

-Elders: usually old powerhouses that take into teaching the new generations. They are usually male and perveted and counterparts to the main characters. They are always portraied as being stronger than they show but in the end, not as strong as the main char. Jiraya, Kisuke, Rayleigh, Makarov...

etc etc


The list of stereotypes goes on and on in various things. Its just how the genre works. Doesnt make it less enjoyable though. Or worse. Its like a criminal suspense triller book. You can't expect it to have layers and layers of romance. You expect it to have layers and layers of mistery and clinch situations. Its how it is.

the difference is how each author approaches the stereotypes.

In Naruto, Kishi tries to avoid it but ends up doing it just the same. Sakura is never really sexualized but she falls under the same other characteristics of her type of character. Tsunade on the other hand, is visually sexualized but never really acts like that. He only really develops the background of 4 female characters and never into a deep enough way. Tsunade, Konan, Hinata and Kushina. They have a supporting role towards the main male chars. For example, while we know a lot about Sakura...but at the same time, we know less from her than we do from Hinata's past. Parents, feelings, etc. We know little. Tsunade for example, we know a lot about the past she shared with Oro and jiraya but we don't even know who her parents were. And this is important as its actually a plot point that she is the grand daughter of the first hokage. So, who was the parent who was son or daught to the first? What happened to him or her? Why is he or she never mentioned, even by Tsunade herself? Or any other char? What about Karin? Little is know about her but she plays a significant part in the plot.

In OP, you ALWAYS get a background check on every female char. Always. It explains why they are like they are in that point of the story. It explains why they act like they act. Etc etc. We got it with all the main ones (Robin, Nami) but also the arc specific ones. However, they are way down in the food chain in terms of power and revelance and, excluding Robin, they are usually sexualized in one way or another. Nami is the main one to use her body to her own agenda. The difference is that its done in a more comedic fashion alongside the serious stuff. Thats perhaps what shapes OP in a unique way. The comedy works alongside the serious stuff all the time. Its tangled in and never feels forced. To me at least. Perhaps because we always get that background of story and seriousness.

In bleach, that is more visual than anything else. All female chars are sexualized to the extreme with few exceptions. In terms of their role and play in the story and their interaction with others, you don't feel that as much as with other manga. Its like its not noticed by other chars. But visually, its there more than in all others I feel.

In Fairy Tail there is no hiding it. No attempt. The female chars are developed in terms of story, yes, but they all have, regardless of their power level, the same archtype and they are all sexualized both in char and visually. Even poor wendy gets that treatment by constantly getting reminded of how her breasts are small. There is no attempt to make it otherwise. The female chars are developed in background for the most part but they also always fall on the same archtype.


But does it really matter? Its how it is. I enjoy them all the same.
Avoiding character background unless needed doesn't really reflect the general portrayal of women being sexist. Especially since it's not just the women. We never learned about parents of Obito either. And he was important. Konohamaru's parents are absent. Minato's parentage or family is out of the picture. Nagato's parents were not named either despite being shown. Jiraiya and Oro didn't get a background for them before and beyond their days as a nin.

The problem in Naruto is that women enforces traditional gender roles and that doesn't go well with many because of the idea of working women. Women like Tsunade or Mei are typically unmarried. If married they are depicted as house wives. Women shouldn't have to lonely women to be strong or working women. Tenten works but her marital status is left out. One can only hope tht Kishi fixes the problem here in some random movie or chapter if she shows something contrary.

A manga which confirmed to general shonen rule and didn't let female characters overshadow male characters and yet managed to write strong character with dignity would be FMA.

And I like Hwa Rin from Ruler of the land despite her being used for fanservice. Because it is not excused by the manga verse and she hasn't declined with time.

The problem with punk Hazard was that this time she wasn't the one using her body for any agenda. She had no control over it the situation at all. And it looks verse when you know they sell nami 3d gel mousepads. Granted they do for other female characters too but a reminder in the manga one one side is clever marketing pitch and on another just sad. The commercial toys side of Japanese fanservice is just...
 
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Scorps

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Avoiding character background unless needed doesn't really reflect the general portrayal of women being sexist. Especially since it's not just the women. We never learned about parents of Obito either. And he was important. Konohamaru's parents are absent. Minato's parentage or family is out of the picture. Nagato's parents were not named either despite being shown. Jiraiya and Oro didn't get a background for them before and beyond their days as a nin.

The problem in Naruto is that women enforces traditional gender roles and that doesn't go well with many because of the idea of working women. Women like Tsunade or Mei are typically unmarried. If married they are depicted as house wives. Women shouldn't have to lonely women to be strong or working women. Tenten works but her marital status is left out. One can only hope tht Kishi fixes the problem here in some random movie or chapter if she shows something contrary.

A manga which confirmed to general shonen rule and didn't let female characters overshadow male characters and yet managed to write strong character with dignity would be FMA.

And I like Hwa Rin from Ruler of the land despite her being used for fanservice. Because it is not excused by the manga verse and she hasn't declined with time.

The problem with punk Hazard was that this time she wasn't the one using her body for any agenda. She had no control over it the situation at all. And it looks verse when you know they sell nami 3d gel mousepads. Granted they do for other female characters too but a reminder in the manga one one side is clever marketing pitch and on another just sad. The commercial toys side of Japanese fanservice is just...
Yes, but you should also consider the background. These mangas come from the oldest (I think) manga genre. This manga genre is as rooted in Japanese Culture's view of Women and Man's role in society as its rooted in the early stages of despiction of social issues.

I won't deny that they are sexist towards women in these mangas. There is no denying. And that is seen in both the roles the female characters have in the story as well as in their looks. Its quite noticeable. But I feel its nothing new to the genre. And this genre only reflects an outdated conservative view of social roles in japanese culture. Sad but true.

However, I feel that with recent mangas, even in the shonen genre, there is this important male lead role but you are starting to not see as much sexualization of the female ones.
 

The Sach

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Female characters never got enough amount of justice in shonen genre itself and even Naruto isn't an exception, but that doesn't mean that liking the female characters from the Naruto is a really bad thing or something along the lines, although many people interpret it that way on this forum, typically. In the end, liking/disliking a character is just the matter of choice.
Sakura is a really poor developed character, I completely give you for that, but at the same time her simplicity is what attracts me.
Hinata was undisputedly heir of the prestigious Hyuuga, Kushina was the part of prestigious Uzumaki clan+ nine tails host, Tsunade was the granddaughter of first Hokage etc. Sakura, on the other hand, was one of the few 'simple kids', that achieved a lot in Naruto and that's why I prefer her over Hinata or others. That is obviously is my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to have one.

Avoiding character background unless needed doesn't really reflect the general portrayal of women being sexist. Especially since it's not just the women. We never learned about parents of Obito either. And he was important. Konohamaru's parents are absent. Minato's parentage or family is out of the picture. Nagato's parents were not named either despite being shown. Jiraiya and Oro didn't get a background for them before and beyond their days as a nin.

The problem in Naruto is that women enforces traditional gender roles and that doesn't go well with many because of the idea of working women. Women like Tsunade or Mei are typically unmarried. If married they are depicted as house wives. Women shouldn't have to lonely women to be strong or working women. Tenten works but her marital status is left out. One can only hope tht Kishi fixes the problem here in some random movie or chapter if she shows something contrary.

A manga which confirmed to general shonen rule and didn't let female characters overshadow male characters and yet managed to write strong character with dignity would be FMA.

And I like Hwa Rin from Ruler of the land despite her being used for fanservice. Because it is not excused by the manga verse and she hasn't declined with time.

The commercial toys side of Japanese fanservice is just...
I completely agree with your stand on Naruto manga and Kishi sucks at developing female characters. Even in the end, Sakura and Hinata, two lead(?) female characters ended up being housewives and nothing more than that.
As for others, they are just there to marry with other characters, there is not even a mention of what happened to their dreams(Temari, Tenten...etc).
One thing I would like to point here out is, every manga is different.
One Piece is an entirely different type of manga than Naruto, where Oda provides detailing of almost all the characters including Nami and Robin. So, if we are talking about development and stories of individual female characters, I would put Robin as one of the well-portrayed female characters in Shonen history(enies lobby arc is one of my personal favorites). Later, her development became rusty and as such, though I am expecting more from her as the entire 'void century' things get revealed(considering the fact that, current focus of the manga was something else).
Nami is oh well, Nami. She is a bit Lucy+ a bit of Orihime. She is a typical stereotype just like Scorps said.
I never really understood, why people liked Boa. She is typical Hinata type character and that's it, I guess. Though, she provides witty moments. Again, a matter of person choice here.
About sexualization, I rarely felt that women are sexualized in one piece, with few notable exceptions.(Rebecca, I mean what type of girl wears bikini while fighting against goons in Battle Coliseum?:|) Probably, because I take One Piece the similar way Scorps and other OP fans do and that's where Oda gains an advantage over Kishi.
About FMA, it did depict strong female characters, but one might argue that it is so because it is short manga and indeed FMA had that advantage. One Piece and Naruto, on the other hand, are really huge verses and typically when you handle such a big verses, you end up creating few stereotypes or what we call 'similar characters'.
Another manga, I would like to bring into discussion is 'Akame Ga Kiru'. It was a really impressive manga in the beginning, with few really good female characters, though it felt short of my expectations. Yet, I must say it was a different attempt in writing a manga with some good shades given to female characters, rather than them being 'glam dolls', which is an indication that things are changing.
 

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Yes, but you should also consider the background. These mangas come from the oldest (I think) manga genre. This manga genre is as rooted in Japanese Culture's view of Women and Man's role in society as its rooted in the early stages of despiction of social issues.

I won't deny that they are sexist towards women in these mangas. There is no denying. And that is seen in both the roles the female characters have in the story as well as in their looks. Its quite noticeable. But I feel its nothing new to the genre. And this genre only reflects an outdated conservative view of social roles in japanese culture. Sad but true.

However, I feel that with recent mangas, even in the shonen genre, there is this important male lead role but you are starting to not see as much sexualization of the female ones.
That was my point to begin with. Problem with internet is that people protest against gender roles but ignore other forms as in sexual objectification or otherwise sexist portrayals as entertainment. It's kind of hard to take them seriously when they are being selective while bringing up the issue. Not having a problem =/= lack of existence.

As for men being portrayed as sexual objects- It's similar to racism problem against whites. It's not like it doesn't exist. But it's not institutionalized to that level and put much less limitations for them. Sanji, cupping Nami's breast is a sales product- you can buy official time skip Nami 3 D mousepad with gel implants for breasts to rest your wrist. Sanji almost seems to be pitching to the market. Yes, I noticed one for Zoro too but it only makes things worse and doesn't negate the first one. ( yeah for other animes too so they sell more than manga with this fanservice). That's what hammers the reality in.

Female characters never got enough amount of justice in shonen genre itself and even Naruto isn't an exception, but that doesn't mean that liking the female characters from the Naruto is a really bad thing or something along the lines, although many people interpret it that way on this forum, typically. In the end, liking/disliking a character is just the matter of choice.
Sakura is a really poor developed character, I completely give you for that, but at the same time her simplicity is what attracts me.
Hinata was undisputedly heir of the prestigious Hyuuga, Kushina was the part of prestigious Uzumaki clan+ nine tails host, Tsunade was the granddaughter of first Hokage etc. Sakura, on the other hand, was one of the few 'simple kids', that achieved a lot in Naruto and that's why I prefer her over Hinata or others. That is obviously is my personal opinion and everyone is entitled to have one.



I completely agree with your stand on Naruto manga and Kishi sucks at developing female characters. Even in the end, Sakura and Hinata, two lead(?) female characters ended up being housewives and nothing more than that.
As for others, they are just there to marry with other characters, there is not even a mention of what happened to their dreams(Temari, Tenten...etc).
One thing I would like to point here out is, every manga is different.
One Piece is an entirely different type of manga than Naruto, where Oda provides detailing of almost all the characters including Nami and Robin. So, if we are talking about development and stories of individual female characters, I would put Robin as one of the well-portrayed female characters in Shonen history(enies lobby arc is one of my personal favorites). Later, her development became rusty and as such, though I am expecting more from her as the entire 'void century' things get revealed(considering the fact that, current focus of the manga was something else).
Nami is oh well, Nami. She is a bit Lucy+ a bit of Orihime. She is a typical stereotype just like Scorps said.
I never really understood, why people liked Boa. She is typical Hinata type character and that's it, I guess. Though, she provides witty moments. Again, a matter of person choice here.
About sexualization, I rarely felt that women are sexualized in one piece, with few notable exceptions.(Rebecca, I mean what type of girl wears bikini while fighting against goons in Battle Coliseum?:|) Probably, because I take One Piece the similar way Scorps and other OP fans do and that's where Oda gains an advantage over Kishi.
About FMA, it did depict strong female characters, but one might argue that it is so because it is short manga and indeed FMA had that advantage. One Piece and Naruto, on the other hand, are really huge verses and typically when you handle such a big verses, you end up creating few stereotypes or what we call 'similar characters'.
Another manga, I would like to bring into discussion is 'Akame Ga Kiru'. It was a really impressive manga in the beginning, with few really good female characters, though it felt short of my expectations. Yet, I must say it was a different attempt in writing a manga with some good shades given to female characters, rather than them being 'glam dolls', which is an indication that things are changing.
Yea I agree about Sakura. Kishi practically gave up on her for a period because he couldn't decide how to write her better- I guess he had to set the pace and plot for the rest of the manga so she wasn't the priority for a considerable period.

Problem in OP is of a different sort- it mixed sexism with comedy and for the effect of added cuteness. Be it a "crying/pouting in mid battle marine", Tashigi, or other female in combat characters.. They are still fitted in a stereotyped feminine behaviour but the presentation makes people brush it off as a joke. Thus it becomes more easily acceptable for most people and you get used to it. Post skip Nami somewhat stands out because she was shown more in control of herself previously than other women in the manga. But lately she seems to be getting in situations which put her in sexually vulnerable and helpless positions more and more. Remember that invisible creep in a bathroom but at least he was a villain. Let's just hope Oda will come up something to put the balance back.
 
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minamoto

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Yes, but you should also consider the background. These mangas come from the oldest (I think) manga genre. This manga genre is as rooted in Japanese Culture's view of Women and Man's role in society as its rooted in the early stages of despiction of social issues.

I won't deny that they are sexist towards women in these mangas. There is no denying. And that is seen in both the roles the female characters have in the story as well as in their looks. Its quite noticeable. But I feel its nothing new to the genre. And this genre only reflects an outdated conservative view of social roles in japanese culture. Sad but true.

However, I feel that with recent mangas, even in the shonen genre, there is this important male lead role but you are starting to not see as much sexualization of the female ones.
so you are the new mod...congrats anyway
 

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No worse than Nami or Boa but they get fans so....I really don't understand such craze for these two. The problem is that Naruto fanbase is really the toughest fanbase to please or at least one of such groups. No matter what the writers does they split down the middle and rage.

Naruto is absent from the manga for a few chapters:

Fan rage: " this manga is called Naruto where is he?"

Naruto is in every chapter:

Fan rage: " why Naruto is doing everything"

Ssuke is absent: " manga has gone to shit no sasuke."

Sasuke is back.

Fan rage" " why don't Kishi call the manga sasuke and be done with it."

Sakura does nothing:

" she is useless"

Sakura learns medical Jutsu

"Sakura is just a copy"

Naruto marries Hinata:

"no love was developed"

in case Naruto didn't marry Hinata:

Fan rage: He ignored her despite neji dying...

There was never a win win situation for Kishi with such responses.

Are these two character anything worth arguing over - no. Are they that badly written to attract such long discussions over them-- not at all.

Most women in shonnens are not going to get a front seat. There are few series they give them that chance. Unless of course they are also using them for massive fan service and balancing it out with sexual objectification. There are some but very few.
This much is true. As the old saying goes Kishi "will be damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't".

In regards to Flakez' response below, neither are that bad. Hinata is admirable in that she was always willing to put her life on the line to protect what she loved... Same can be said for Sakura too. They both also showed determination in going about walking their own paths... even when the light was hazy and they could not see a future clearly. Their faith and resilience puts them both leagues against Mei, who acted tough until the closing act of the Madara fight. Pathetically crawling around proclaiming her weakness and will to give up in a manner Madara would have called unsightly. A 70 y/o man and a woman with swords stabbed every which way were showing much more fortitude than her.
 
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