It's not made up. Statistically fear only lasts around 30 days as a motivator. It's why alcoholics will quit drinking after their DUI, but within the proceeding months leading up to their court date they go back to old habits. It's why people bargain with God, but revert to their old ways once they get what they want. An example I hear often, "I'll go back to church if you can get me out of this." You may argue that is a low stage of spiritual development, but few people are enlightened.
I was talking about you assuming that people believing in afterlife, live in some kind of a terror. See my above post.
Anyway, your claim of being enlightened is highly subjective as well, and so, it is also just a copying mechanism to seek "enlightenment".
Anyway, I'm not a psychologist, but what does fear have to do with alcoholists quitting? Do they all try to quit out of fear? Why not out of love for their family, or rationality? Btw religions may also help to quit~
And if fear only lasts for 30 days as a motivator, then why do you claim that religions use the belief in afterlife as fear motivator, to force people to do things? If it lasts only for 30 days, how could those people be manipulated for their whole lives?
Yeah, but their purpose is to provide material possessions. Walmart isn't hiding behind some guise of greater good, or attempting to illicit some existential meaning through divine word for profit. You go to a store to buy something you want. If you are trying to say that church/synagogue/mosques are just stores where people can buy hope I won't argue with you.
I was just trying to point out that religious beliefs are not the only beliefs that can be exploited by greedy organizations. I didn't deny that there are organized churchs that do that. Business sects...etc. But I don't see why are you trying to demonize the belief in afterlife alone?
Near death experiences, life after death experiences, all of these are shown to be one of two things: neurochemical reactions that occur as oxygen is deprived from the brain during the dying process or the person was lying. There are whole circles of people who make money on their experiences with life after death. Most of these experiences occur within the temporal lobe and can be replicated with electrodes. Another example would be auto-erotic asphyxiation; oxygen deprivation leads to feelings of euphoria. Euphoria could be easily construed as heaven if you knew were dying.
I know I actually tried to sarcastically imply that 'scientific evidence' is a rather shady term. One may accept such researches as scientific evidence, someone else may not. Now you may say that you've just pointed out that these researches are unscientific: fine, but then, what scientific evidence do you expect from me to show you about afterlife? The point of an afterlife is that it is beyond this life: therefore it cannot really be examined with scientific methods, coz science examines phenomena of this physical world. Or, do you expect me to die and come back from death in front of your eyes to tell you how was it? You could just say that I was cheating somehow, or that I'm lying, anyway.
Also, it wouldn't really be a test of faith if let's say angels appeared to all mankind and would perform miracles to convince people. Then you would just say that it must have been mass hypnoses. So, to some people, no evidence would be enough. You expect 'scientific evidence' only coz you know that whatever I'd present you, you can refute it for one reason or another (legit reasons they very well may be). We are left with logical arguments, and well, logically both statements 'there is life after death' and 'there is no life after death', hold equal value.
Why don't you ask God to guide you, anyway?
This is the example of using the afterlife as an escape from reality. Humans fear death because it's the cessation of their attachments. Some people fear it so much they created the afterlife delusion as a way to placate their fears. It is difficult to think this infant's life was cut short, but if I believe he is going to a paradise after death it soothes my anxiety. Reality of the animal world is ugly and humans evolved to meet their personal needs above others. I have hope that humans can one day evolve to an enlightened state, but it starts with seeing reality for what it is. Once you see reality, then you can work to improve it.
Also,how is it an escape from reality? One still has to face that the infant died. Noone's denying that the infant was killed, or that it's a horrible event. Also, I don't see how it soothes my 'anxiety' if I know that the infant goes to heaven, but I can't be sure if I'll go to heaven or hell...
Seriously, we are just running in circles at this point. Which is not a surpsire...But I'd expect you to at least realize -regardless of my own beliefs-, that you are generalizing people, as if all religious people believed in the same things for the same reasons: but this is not how it is, this is not reality, so you are also just trying to 'escape reality' by simplifying it in a manner that you can explain it. It's easier to say that religiosu people are escaping reality, instead of admitting that you can't explain reality in itself, either. You don't even seem to assume the possibility that other factors are present in the thinking of religious persons.
Funny, coz I posted it as its meaning is in line with what you said about that hate is caused by one's own mind.
The previous verse is perfect to be quoted here:
Say, "All [things] are from Allah ." So what is [the matter] with those people that they can hardly understand any statement? /4:78/
Then 79:
"What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, [O man], is from yourself."
It means, by the way, that everything happens out of God's will, but the good things come out of His mercy, while the bad things are willed as a result of one's own wrong actions, or one's subjective reaction to a test (f.e, let's say you lose your home: you may take it with dignity, or you can get depressed. Your choice, but if you get depressed, this negative feeling is from yourself). There is another implication too, though: that bad things are also from God in a sense that they may stem from the fact that the soul was created as such that it may succumb to its own greed and desires.
Gandhi said that to be truly faithful one had to look at their faith with the eyes of a child. It's true, because it's not based on rational logic or evidence. It's circumstantial and based on hope and belief.
"What comes to you of good is from Allah , but what comes to you of evil, O man, is from yourself." /surah 4:79/
" Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil..." /12:53/
Alright.
And why do you think I'm worshipping 'the divine' out of ignorance? 'Coz all religious people - despite, again: New Age is strongly of religious nature- must be ignorant by your definition?
"Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason." / 2:164/
Sure it is useful to study the universe. To me the incredible amount and variety of data present in the universe, points towards God. But not inside. However, there are islamic sects, like the sufis, who also focus on mysticism and esoterism.
The thoughts of Rumi or Iqbal, f.e, are appealing, but one shouldn't be overly obsessed with his/her own ego. Or else, one day the person might claim that he/she doesn't even need god anymore. Which you'd probably call 'spiritual development and gaining awarness'. Or whatever terminology you use. But I find it weird that some people place themselves on the same rank with God. Like, what can you do on your own?
"Does man think that he is to be left to wander without an aim? Was he not a spermdrop ejaculated?" /75:36-37/
You couldn't even have been born on your own. And you're gonna die. So how can you claim to be divine? In what sense?
Anyway, I never said that inner research is not important. If you feel complete with yourself, fine, I guess? The Quran also says that God doesn't need humans, so you can stray on your on if you wish. Then, you'll get your full rewad in this life. If you feel that you have achieved all you wanted in your life (((- out of God's grace, despite you're denying it *cough*-))) well, then there's your reward. So really, don't bother with God. Forget Him and He will 'forget' you too in the hereafter, in which you don't believe either, so another reason for you not to care. Though you still seem to care to ridicule religions.
I think I'm getting the difference you're talking about, however, I can't help but be reminded of the fitrah that I have already mentioned. It is 'something incorporated in the fabric our consciousness/soul'. So what you are talking about, is not that far from what I'm talking about. But for some reason you seem to think that praying is something humiliatng and degrading, and that it keeps you from being loving...And I don't see how?
I don't need to grasp everything. I don't even fully grasp how a PC works. Or how quantum mechanics work. Or how women work (this was supposed to be a comic relief )
But I have all I need to know. Of course it doesn't mean I'll stop learning more. The more I learn, the more I believe. So far, whatever I've learned, made sense to me.
And for the 4th time (if my memory serves), what you say, in my vocabulary it's the fitrah. It's within ourselves and I had to recognize it when I was learning about islam. So yes, religion also has an inner reflexion.
Oh, ah, hah. (._. ) Guess what, I'v read Daniel Coleman, on emotinal intelligence and how the social brains of ours are synchronized- but nothing spiritual or esoteristic stuff is going on, either. There is an even less complicated explanation: if you've been talking a lot to someone and have been knowing each other for years, you get to learn the other person's reactions and general behavior and chain of thoughts. Me mentioning satans whispering was just one of the possibilities. Anyway, even you mentioned some kind of ghosts/spirits, so how is that not a medieval response? Double standards again?
First of all, a demon / jinn is not necessary evil...At least not in islam.
Anyway, even if you use the word 'reincarnation', you still didn't explain either how is this 'reincarnation' working, how does it make people remember, so you are also using an empty word to label a phenomenon of which you have no detailed knowledge either.
How can you be 100% sure to exclude the possibility of this being the doing of jinns?
How do you know what I'm thinking about what we can do or not? Now you can read minds through the internet?
Or not.
From my point of view, if you have a connection with God Almighty, then He is enough for you. I'm actually liberated -well, probably not fully, as I'm still learning, but gradually - from the fear of humans, fear of loss, and the idols of greed, hatred and such. What more should I want? To learn how to levitate objects with my mind?
You are still assuming that prayer is all about asking God to help us whilst passively being sunk in by a feeling of powerlessness.
"God changes not what is in a people, until they change what is in themselves. " /13:11/
So, you have to do your own part.
Also, prayer -at least to me-, is more about giving. Giving gratitude, instead of asking. Sure I ask guidance, strength and such, but I don't see how it is limiting my potential? I was more of a mess when I didn't use to pray.
Sigh,I didn't say you did.
And I asked have you never cut ties with someone for petty reasons?
Oh, it's great you actually visited a mosque. But unless you've spoken all the scholars in the world, don't you think you shouldn't generalize? My scholar gave logical answers to all of my questions, otherwise I wouldn't even have kept on learning, of course.
Well, that shouldn't be like that. In the mosque I visit, the women's room is about the same as the men's area: both are pretty humble. Just the carpet and some columns and a sofa with chairs...The only difference is that women's room is much smaller: but it's coz only a few women frequent the mosque. So maybe the reason why they don't care to buy better stuff in your place, is coz there is no need.
I) What makes you think that systems can't promote love?
II) I never said that organized religions are not systems. I only said that New Age has a religious nature too, by which I didn't mean to imply that it has a hierarchy, but I was simply talking about its beliefs.
Let's dismiss wikipedia, and take an online dictionary instead, if you wish:
You must be registered for see links
religion
The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion
A set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usu. involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code for the conduct of human affairs.
________
Religion may refer to institualized religions too, but not necessarily. Based on broader definitions, I consider New Age as a religious movement, but we can agree to disagree, if you wish.
And you still seem to project your prejudice against the catholic church, to all other religions. And don't forget that it's not obligatory for anyone to join the church.
As I quoted, that's not how muslims should behave, though.
What's the point of faith if it's not unwavering? Now it's another question that first one has to learn and gain knowledge, but some people may accept reasonings and evidences that you may dismiss and vice versa. We are all different. Some people need more evidence, and to some people, nothing is enough.
I only kept quoting stuff so that noone can blame me for making up things on my own. Also, to show that the Quran has answers to your questions, whether you accept its answers or not, but in any case, what you say, is not that incompatible with what the Quran says. It's just we interpret religious scripts differently I guess. It's fine if you keep claiming that religious people's interpretation is deluded, and yours is correct: it's only fair that you can do that.
Maybe it's your bubble that is not big enough.
Well I wonder if they've acually read the whole Quran themselves? Are they reading and studying it every day?
But islam says that God sent prophets to each nation, and so muslism shouldn't defame the prophets of other religions, as we can't be sure if the one we'd badmouth, may be a real prophet! Actually there are people who say that Buddha was also a prophet of Allah, some people identify him with Luqman from teh Quran. (Look him up if you wish).
I myself, have read complete works of Plato and Aristotle recently, and some of the things they say are pretty compatible with islamic teachings (no wonder muslim medieval philosophers liked especially Aristotle), and I was wondering if Sokrates (the master of Plato) was another prophet, whose teachings were altered by his desciples. Well, we can't be sure.
And yeah, making such sculptures is not allowed, so what? We can't make statues of Muhammad either.
I don't know when demons are whispering in my ears. But it's possible they do sometimes. You also mentioned some spirit dragging your arm and other stuff like that, how is that different? Gee...
Good for you? I was not always religious either, and I also considered myself to be more decent and honest than most of the religious people I know. Now I've learnt to assume the best of others. Each person has something to be respected for, something to learn from them. They may be better in way I don't know of.
And noone said that muslims are perfect, or that believing in God automatically makes you the next Mother Theresa...
"And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully." /17:26/
"And give full measure when you measure, and weigh with an even balance. That is the best [way] and best in result." /17:35/
"We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents; in pain did his mother bear him, and in pain did she give him birth" (46:15).
"Thy Lord hath decreed that ye worship none but Him, and that ye be kind to parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honor. And out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: ‘My Lord! bestow on them Thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood' "(17:23-24).
1. The Prophet Muhammad said, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him: Your Heaven lies under the feet of your mother (Ahmad, Nasai).
2. A man came to the Prophet and said, ‘O Messenger of God! Who among the people is the most worthy of my good companionship? The Prophet said: Your mother. The man said, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man further asked, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your mother. The man asked again, ‘Then who?' The Prophet said: Then your father. (Bukhari, Muslim).
3. Abu Usaid Saidi said: We were once sitting with Rasulullah when a man from the tribe of Salmah came and said to him: O Messenger of Allah! do my parents have rights over me even after they have died? And Rasulullah said: Yes. You must pray to Allah to bless them with His Forgiveness and Mercy, fulfill the promises they made to anyone, and respect their relations and their friends (Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah).
4. Abdullah ibn Amr related that the Messenger of Allah said: The major sins are to believe that Allah has partners, to disobey one's parents, to commit murder, and to bear false witness (Bukhari, Muslim).
5. It is narrated by Asma bint Abu Bakr that during the treaty of Hudaibiyah, her mother, who was then pagan, came to see her from Makkah. Asma informed the Messenger of Allah of her arrival and also that she needed help. He said: Be good to your mother (Bukhari, Muslim).
The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The best among you are those who treat their wives in the best manner." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 217
As you see, the problem is exactly when people don't internalize the morals of religious teachings.
Well, I'm liking this chat with you u.u
Maybe coz the same way some people say that religions have no scientific proof to back up their teachings, they or others may refute astrotheology and alchemy on the same basis, that they are not scientific enough? We are living in a world where science has taken the role of religion. (*waits for people to misinterpret my words*)
You don't have to argue the 'sheep' personally, you can read the Quran for yourself and look up scholarly explanations online. If you've already done so, then it can't be helped.
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Coz you always mention pedophile priests...In islam, f.e, there is no clergy. There are scholars whose opinion and not sacred or infallible.
And darn it took me hours to answer all this, and I have to prepare for exams, so I may took a long to reply .
I'm on a laptop now so I can type a bit more without my browser crashing every 3 minutes.
Religion and new age philosophy are both focussed on universal understanding so they're bound to touch corners at some point. Duh. That doesn't mean new age philosophy has the same doctrines. Because it doesn't have any doctrines at all. That's the major difference. There are no set standards for norms, dress codes, sytem of thoughts and servitude. New Age stuff does not limit our potential as conscious beings with rules and fear mongering. (hell) As for runes, cymatics, sacred geometry, etc; this all predates most organised religion.
They don't have a holy artifact that comes with random rules born out of pride and absoluteness. Like holding the holy book above your waist. They simply incorporate 'unity in diversity' in their everyday lives. Religions, especially islam talks about other religions as if they're separate and lower than your own. Whilest they're all from the same source at one point in time. The same messages..just in other languages, symbols, and such.
And I told you before that I take religious scripts seriously. They're encoded with deep knowledge. So, quoting parts of the qu'ran is kind of pointless. Not that you'd interpret them correctly anyways. The ones who identify their own cultures and being with such religious scripts misinterpret many parts and fall for the same trap.
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The spirit dragging my arm was the result of half an hour of meditation whilest undergoing intense negative, hatefull feelings. I shouldn't have done that. As I afterwards felt watched, leered at and the temperature in my room dropped. I don't know if you go through all those symptoms when you claim to be whispered at by demons. But I know what to do when such a thing happens. I (try) dominate it by not emitting fear. But religious people underestimate their own mental power. Due to their faith teaching them they were born to worship and be thankful to something they haven't properly grasped themselves. Google the 'field of noetics'. And I wish I could introduce you to this reiki practicioner I know. Tell me this demon stuff when he sends shockwaves through your arm with his hands 30 centimers apart from your skin.
- (so much text so i'm jumping to parts)
''But for some reason you seem to think that praying is something humiliatng and degrading, and that it keeps you from being loving...And I don't see how?''
Keeps you from being loving? I didn't say that ._. It's just pointless. Instead of praying 5 times a day, why not aim to do something for someone else 5 times a day. Too much of an effort, I guess.
As for astrotheology; Funny how the whole bible is intertwined with it in code. And other religions like hinduism has many comparisons to biblical bits.
They can, in the psuedo-sense. But it's just another tool of expansion of power and influence.
In the sense that they can play the 'respectability' and 'holy' card shut up critics and undermine their freedom of speech.
Religion and new age philosophy are both focussed on universal understanding so they're bound to touch corners at some point. Duh. That doesn't mean new age philosophy has the same doctrines. Because it doesn't have any doctrines at all. That's the major difference.
But norms are to benefit us. I try to follow the norms as I experience their practical use and I feel this is the best for me. Servitude to God is not something bad, liek servitude to humans. But at least can we agree that being liberated from greed and certain desires, is a good thing?
New Age stuff does not limit our potential as conscious beings
I don't see why someoen who believes in God and follows some norms, can't be self-conscious? I'm learning to gain perfect control over my thoughts, desires, and body. Which needs a great deal of willpower, concentration, patience and practice. The only difference is that I believe it's from God's mercy. You may say it's self-degrading, and I say you are ungrateful *shrug*
You're just stereotyping. Being aware of hell doesn't mean I live in constant terror, shaken by the horror of it...It's as if you said that people live in fear coz there is a penal code in force in a country...
As for runes, cymatics, sacred geometry, etc; this all predates most organised religion.
Well, according to islam, monotheism was there first, of course. Now with the first humans, it didn't require much organization. But the knowledge was spoiled throughout time, people split up in many communities. Also, you are talking as if priests or shamans who practiced that stuff, were not hierarchically above others, and as if ancient priests didn't form a class. Also, all of these practices could spread only coz people lived in communities- which means these were social practices: which is organization.
They don't have a holy artifact that comes with random rules born out of pride and absoluteness.
Ignorant statement. It's ok that you don't know that much about islam, or whatever you know, is from your friends who either present islam in a doubtful manner, or simply you misunderstand them. But at least you should pay attention to what I have typed. I've already told you that islam acknowledges the previous religions, as all contain truths and f.e. judaism and christianity are also divine revelations, but the knowledge was spoilt throughout history. But we can't defame other religions, and can't talk badly about their prophets, as we don't know if they were real prophets sent by God or not. I also quoted to you that God will judge in what people have differed: not humans. Noone knows what is in the heart of others, so I have to assume the best of others. Some muslims may seem very pious, but it will turn out that their faith was not real. While, it may turn out that a non-muslim had faith the whole time.
Islam doesn't claim to be higher, it just says that islam is the last revelation, as well as the first. But as it was corrupted throughout time, a last and full revelation was necessary.
Also, the only thing in which muslims may be better than non-muslims, is piety. But again: claiming to be a muslim doesn't automatically makes you pious.
Whilest they're all from the same source at one point in time. The same messages..just in other languages, symbols, and such.
And I told you before that I take religious scripts seriously. They're encoded with deep knowledge. So, quoting parts of the qu'ran is kind of pointless.
I quote things because so far, to all the universal questions raised by you (f.e, why we feel the divine, why are there more religions, how we should treat others...etc) I could give answers based on the Quran. But you didn't show me why these explanation are -according to you- not correct.
You claiming that only you hold the key of interpretation, holds no more value than me saying the same. I think ultimately the usefulness of one's interpretation should be obvious from a person's life. If you're happy with what you have, and you think you live the life that's best for both yourself and your environment: fine, but what makes you think that I'm not happy with mine and I'm not a useful member of society?
The spirit dragging my arm was the result of half an hour of meditation whilest undergoing intense negative, hatefull feelings. I shouldn't have done that. As I afterwards felt watched, leered at and the temperature in my room dropped. I don't know if you go through all those symptoms when you claim to be whispered at by demons. But I know what to do when such a thing happens. I (try) dominate it by not emitting fear. But religious people underestimate their own mental power.
And i'm supposed to be afraid of what? Why would I undergo strong hatred and negative feelings? Now don't get the wrong idea...of course I'm also sad sometimes or angry, but as I said, I remind myself of God, and I get rid of the feelings- the only difference is that I say thanks to God, but you think it's your own merit only. But if the result is the same, I don't see how from your perspective should it matter what I believe in.
Also, ain't ya smokin' stuff every second day and who knows what other substances? Isn't it interesting that such spiritual experiences are common amongst those who use drugs? Ok, lemme guess your response: even before that, as a kid, you experienced such things. Well, as a kid, I also saw demonic eyes under the bed and stuff Lol
Due to their faith teaching them they were born to worship and be thankful to something they haven't properly grasped themselves.
Sigh...the only difference as I see, if i'm not mistaken, that you think god is the universe, and the universe is inside us. While I believe that God is more than just the universe, whilst it's true He encompasses everything.
I did. It seems to go back to greek philosophers (tho you may say that their knowledge is rooted in paganism too). But it's not like I'm unfamiliar with them. I just told you I've read complete works by Plato and Aristotle. How many have you read?
And I was thinking, if Sokrates or some other contemporary was a real prophet. Take Sokrates's daimonion f.e. This is the greek word for demon. But they are not malevolent ones- they are whispering thoughts. Which reminded me of angels conveying the revelations to prophets. So the way you say that ancient knowledge is encoded in religions, I say that it's the original faith that was spoiled by paganism, ancient philosophy, etc. But you can put the fractions together. That's why I asked you to at least admit that logically it can work in both ways.
It's just pointless. Instead of praying 5 times a day, why not aim to do something for someone else 5 times a day. Too much of an effort, I guess.
Lel. My obligatory 5 prayers don't take up more time than half an hour. Which is the same as your meditation. So I could ask, why don't you also do smtg more useful instead? The hypocrisy is real.
Also, what makes you think I don't do things for others? I pick up litter whenever I can, give food/alms to homeless people, help my neighbors etc. I know I know, you also give food to pigeons. *pats your shoulder*
And you're looking at it from the wrong way. At least try to adapt my thinking for a sec. I understand that to a nonbeliever iT's pointless, but if I believe in God, why wouldn't I praise him and give thanks?
Yet you post long videos (._. ) But sorry, I couldn't keep this reposnse short either.
I watched a few minutes randomly and what can I say...Game with words like 'lived' is 'devil' reversed, or 'good is god' and 'evil is devil' are not so convincing. But I might watch the whole - if you read the whole Quran
I watched this bs and I wish I hadn't...it's kind of just sad. It's not about ridiculing power, but the guy made fun out of women, in a rather disgusting and humiliating way. If you think that's funny, I have nothing more to tell you. There is really no logic against bad taste. But I thought that's not how you'd like your mother to be treated.
Other than that, I have no problem with criticizing authority, especially if it's not practiced for the betterment for people, but why blame the realigious teachings, instead of blaming those who don't keep the teachings ?There would be no problem if people really observed the teachings. And as I already quoted- but maybe you skipped it:
"The Muslim who mixes with the people and bears patiently their hurtful words, is better than one who does not mix with people and does not show patience under their abuse."
(Mishkat, Book: Ethics, ch. 'Gentleness, modesty and good behaviour')
So, yes, we encounter many things every day that we don't like, and we shouldn't get aggressive over it, but ridiculing prophets who lived thousands of years ago, only to provoke people and if some of them fall for the bait, blame all the religious people in general: is just pathetic.
- A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief
- Something taught; a teaching.
If New Age is a philosophy, don't tell me it has no teachings or principles...
Now this may be the real difference.
But norms are to benefit us. I try to follow the norms as I experience their practical use and I feel this is the best for me. Servitude to God is not something bad, liek servitude to humans. But at least can we agree that being liberated from greed and certain desires, is a good thing?
I don't see why someoen who believes in God and follows some norms, can't be self-conscious? I'm learning to gain perfect control over my thoughts, desires, and body. Which needs a great deal of willpower, concentration, patience and practice. The only difference is that I believe it's from God's mercy. You may say it's self-degrading, and I say you are ungrateful *shrug*
You're just stereotyping. Being aware of hell doesn't mean I live in constant terror, shaken by the horror of it...It's as if you said that people live in fear coz there is a penal code in force in a country...
Well, according to islam, monotheism was there first, of course. Now with the first humans, it didn't require much organization. But the knowledge was spoiled throughout time, people split up in many communities. Also, you are talking as if priests or shamans who practiced that stuff, were not hierarchically above others, and as if ancient priests didn't form a class. Also, all of these practices could spread only coz people lived in communities- which means these were social practices: which is organization.
Religions promote humbleness, though. It's not the teachings' fault that people like to boast with things that are not even of their own merit...
Ignorant statement. It's ok that you don't know that much about islam, or whatever you know, is from your friends who either present islam in a doubtful manner, or simply you misunderstand them. But at least you should pay attention to what I have typed. I've already told you that islam acknowledges the previous religions, as all contain truths and f.e. judaism and christianity are also divine revelations, but the knowledge was spoilt throughout history. But we can't defame other religions, and can't talk badly about their prophets, as we don't know if they were real prophets sent by God or not. I also quoted to you that God will judge in what people have differed: not humans. Noone knows what is in the heart of others, so I have to assume the best of others. Some muslims may seem very pious, but it will turn out that their faith was not real. While, it may turn out that a non-muslim had faith the whole time.
Islam doesn't claim to be higher, it just says that islam is the last revelation, as well as the first. But as it was corrupted throughout time, a last and full revelation was necessary.
Also, the only thing in which muslims may be better than non-muslims, is piety. But again: claiming to be a muslim doesn't automatically makes you pious.
That's what islam says, too.
I quote things because so far, to all the universal questions raised by you (f.e, why we feel the divine, why are there more religions, how we should treat others...etc) I could give answers based on the Quran. But you didn't show me why these explanation are -according to you- not correct.
You claiming that only you hold the key of interpretation, holds no more value than me saying the same. I think ultimately the usefulness of one's interpretation should be obvious from a person's life. If you're happy with what you have, and you think you live the life that's best for both yourself and your environment: fine, but what makes you think that I'm not happy with mine and I'm not a useful member of society?
And i'm supposed to be afraid of what? Why would I undergo strong hatred and negative feelings? Now don't get the wrong idea...of course I'm also sad sometimes or angry, but as I said, I remind myself of God, and I get rid of the feelings- the only difference is that I say thanks to God, but you think it's your own merit only. But if the result is the same, I don't see how from your perspective should it matter what I believe in.
Also, ain't ya smokin' stuff every second day and who knows what other substances? Isn't it interesting that such spiritual experiences are common amongst those who use drugs? Ok, lemme guess your response: even before that, as a kid, you experienced such things. Well, as a kid, I also saw demonic eyes under the bed and stuff Lol
Sigh...the only difference as I see, if i'm not mistaken, that you think god is the universe, and the universe is inside us. While I believe that God is more than just the universe, whilst it's true He encompasses everything.
I did. It seems to go back to greek philosophers (tho you may say that their knowledge is rooted in paganism too). But it's not like I'm unfamiliar with them. I just told you I've read complete works by Plato and Aristotle. How many have you read?
And I was thinking, if Sokrates or some other contemporary was a real prophet. Take Sokrates's daimonion f.e. This is the greek word for demon. But they are not malevolent ones- they are whispering thoughts. Which reminded me of angels conveying the revelations to prophets. So the way you say that ancient knowledge is encoded in religions, I say that it's the original faith that was spoiled by paganism, ancient philosophy, etc. But you can put the fractions together. That's why I asked you to at least admit that logically it can work in both ways.
Lel. My obligatory 5 prayers don't take up more time than half an hour. Which is the same as your meditation. So I could ask, why don't you also do smtg more useful instead? The hypocrisy is real.
Also, what makes you think I don't do things for others? I pick up litter whenever I can, give food/alms to homeless people, help my neighbors etc. I know I know, you also give food to pigeons. *pats your shoulder*
And you're looking at it from the wrong way. At least try to adapt my thinking for a sec. I understand that to a nonbeliever iT's pointless, but if I believe in God, why wouldn't I praise him and give thanks?
Yet you post long videos (._. ) But sorry, I couldn't keep this reposnse short either.
I watched a few minutes randomly and what can I say...Game with words like 'lived' is 'devil' reversed, or 'good is god' and 'evil is devil' are not so convincing. But I might watch the whole - if you read the whole Quran
I watched this bs and I wish I hadn't...it's kind of just sad. It's not about ridiculing power, but the guy made fun out of women, in a rather disgusting and humiliating way. If you think that's funny, I have nothing more to tell you. There is really no logic against bad taste. But I thought that's not how you'd like your mother to be treated.
Other than that, I have no problem with criticizing authority, especially if it's not practiced for the betterment for people, but why blame the realigious teachings, instead of blaming those who don't keep the teachings ?There would be no problem if people really observed the teachings. And as I already quoted- but maybe you skipped it:
"The Muslim who mixes with the people and bears patiently their hurtful words, is better than one who does not mix with people and does not show patience under their abuse."
(Mishkat, Book: Ethics, ch. 'Gentleness, modesty and good behaviour')
So, yes, we encounter many things every day that we don't like, and we shouldn't get aggressive over it, but ridiculing prophets who lived thousands of years ago, only to provoke people and if some of them fall for the bait, blame all the religious people in general: is just pathetic.
It has no doctrine at all. Just focussed on the unification and raising vibration of our species, as cheesy at that may sound. And that can be done through any means, like religion for instance. But as can be seen in the world, religion only halts and imprisons our mental development and the people don't necessarily become more in tune with their surroundings. So, we're going to basics and discarding the doctrines as they don't serve mankind anymore. Back in the day it was necessary, sure. In this age of information and connection it's not.
You know, another reason why I dismiss doctrines is because I myself never needed them to know right from wrong.
Growing up, I noticed it's not that easy for everyone. My dad for one has this hierarchy way of dealing with his children. No matter how ridiculous his rules and reasoning, we have to abide by it. He treats us like property that's below him and not individuals standing next to him. Countless times I put him in his place with simple logic and a passive tone in my voice. He'd raise his voice instantly and try and force respect out of me through intimidation.
Those kind of people do need religious scripts to draw the best out of themselves, I can give you that.
Muslim friends of mine and acquiantances stole, threatened, dominated, disrespected their mothers, dominated their younger siblings..I've seen this happen countless times. Those people do need the qu'ran to teach them principles and self awareness. I never needed that as much as they did.
I guess we have to wait until the simpletons die out and passive, more new age people like me will bring upon a new age in which laws and regulations are less needed as we as a species have become less detached from the earth or god in your understanding.
Talking about hell; I might be stereotyping but I'm not the one promoting it as absolute truth whilest not having analyzed the concept in hell from various perceptions. Hell and heaven are not only misinterpreted, but also used to manipulate simpletons into being a better version of themselves. Which is not a bad thing perse.
'Heaven is a state of being'. < think about that for a moment
-
Now that I think about, anything beyond 10.000 years ago cannot be brought up as fact really when it comes to how mankind progressed at that point. Just hints left behind like for instance ancient cites like stonehenge which are much, much older than authorities claim them to be. Our history is a mystery. As I take the Qu'ran seriously, I have to take into account its claim that the first people were monotheistic as a plausible outcome. Then again, their interpretation of god/the universe could be leaning more towards the spiritual/esoteric side.
Muslims I know personally and others I've seen lectures from all have this approach of having this higher moral understanding over others. And they were always fanatic. Not wavering. Although; in my opinion, the Qu'ran has bits and pieces that make more sense than Christian beliefs. Jesus being a prophet makes more sense than him being almighty and all that. Anywho, a small example: Muslim friend of mine tells me not to eat while holding the banana in my left hand as it's shatan's hand. (The guy is not a bright individual to begin with so I don't see him as someone that should speak for Islam) I tell him that in ancient times, hygiene was an issue. You can't wipe your ass and hold food with that same hand because you could get sick. Nowadays we have hygiene and clean water in abundance(atleast where I live) so that rule has no substance anymore.
Still he kept insisting on me holding it in my right hand as it's a custom in his household. Those sjieleba's or w/e you spell it, you know those muslim outfits were worn in ancient times as it was more hygienic with in that climate. In holland it serves no purpose other than carrying on tradition.
Moving on; My final point basically, as I notice I'm ranting is that it would be a mental evolution if a person would study and have a high interest in the Qu'ran and would try to adopt some of it's teachings in his/her everyday life without having to label him/herself a muslim. As it only creates separation and categorization. What do you get if you put 2 neutral individuals in a room, one informed and interested in the Qu'ran and the other in the Bible. None of them identify themselves with their holy book, and wouldn't get butthurt if their book's content would be challenged.
You'd get a passive argument without tensity in their words. And I think that's the major issue with mankind. Ego. Pride, tradition, and identifying themselves with a holy book.
As for the video of that dutch comedian; I find him vulgar too but his argument is more solid than those moslima's.
You have to be able to ridicule anything that holds a form of power or else you'll get into some form of dictatorship in which your freedom of speech is undermined. It was a point I was making with that vid. Doesn't mean I condone his vulgar jokes. But people like him are necessary. Those muslims choose to be insulted, like he said. And if my mother was a muslima, she wouldn't be mistreated in anyway by his words because they're not directed to her. His opinion is his. Don't like it? Shut him up with a good argument. Don't play the 'holy' and 'respectability' card. Less ego is better for everyone. They asked him where the line should be drawn and he replied with; violence. Which is true. Ridicule my interests and I smile at you. Ridicule a fanatic religious person's beliefs and you just might get your nose punched. And that counts for most of them, so a generalization is not out of place.
Also, ain't ya smokin' stuff every second day and who knows what other substances? Isn't it interesting that such spiritual experiences are common amongst those who use drugs? Ok, lemme guess your response: even before that, as a kid, you experienced such things. Well, as a kid, I also saw demonic eyes under the bed and stuff Lol
I stopped smoking weed as it affected my short term memory. And yeah, sure; I did psychedelic truffles 4 times and DMT once. It heavily influences your perception on reality. For the better. DMT; in short was like being warped internally. I didn't feel my body and I saw vibrant colors and like..interdimensional doors I could enter but I was too afraid. And then I regained my ego and bombarded that trip with universal questions and I was bombarded back with just one answer I felt through emotion: universal love. Strong strong sense of universal love.
Are you sure your parents didn't just indoctrinate you with djinn stories for you to imagine said demonic eyes under your bed? Because I started having those odd experiences after my 16th (without any influence from my family) when I was already rational enough to properly analyze things and not be brainwashed by things I watch/read.
Sigh...the only difference as I see, if i'm not mistaken, that you think god is the universe, and the universe is inside us. While I believe that God is more than just the universe, whilst it's true He encompasses everything.
I think your interpretation of the universe was needed in ancient times for the people to reach a higher, more unified understanding of everything. Multiple gods would only separate mankind even more.
I think my interpretation is the new step towards a higher sense of oneness with the universe without the need of servitude and lipservice to ''god/allah''.
And that is where we will have to agree to disagree. Other than my egotastical view on being on the higher ladder, mentally, I leave that side for what it is and focus on what I can learn from the people around me. I learn a lot from just being around friends and I pick up on parts of their personalities that I lack. Despite differing views; The real lessons are learned in everyday moments and every individual you meet will be your teacher in some way.
Well, religion also teaches us to be in harmony with the world. I just took a walk in the forest, listening to birds chirping, smelling the odor of spring, watching daylight turning into twilight. As cheesy as it may sound. But to me this is the work of God. But I don't see how does this belief stop me from being synchronized with the world? I think you can only be at peace with nature if you acknowledge that you and everything else were created by the same Creator.
But as can be seen in the world, religion only halts and imprisons our mental development and the people don't necessarily become more in tune with their surroundings.
I don't think so. Islam greatly encourages learning.
“Read! In the Name of your Lord Who has created (all that exists).
He has created man from a clot.
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.
Who has taught the writing by the pen.
He has taught man that which he knew not”
[al-‘Alaq 96:1-5]
That can be taken as reference to ancient knowledge lost.
"And do not pursue that of which you have no knowledge. " /17:36/
So yeah, I agree that there are many religious people who only follow religion out of tradition or whatever, which is sad. They might have never even read their own scriptures. But it doesn't mean that religion stopped their mental development. I think it's more like tradition stopped their development. Also, not everyone is born in a rich western country, some peopel never get the chance to even learn how to read/write.
So, we're going to basics and discarding the doctrines as they don't serve mankind anymore. Back in the day it was necessary, sure. In this age of information and connection it's not.
Oh you mean today's world where they're tracking your phone calls, following your browser history, gathering data on you and know more about your relatives than you yourself? Sure religious norms are so useless *sarcasm*
"O you who have believed, let not a people ridicule [another] people; perhaps they may be better than them; nor let women ridicule [other] women; perhaps they may be better than them. And do not insult one another and do not call each other by [offensive] nicknames. Wretched is the name of disobedience after [one's] faith. And whoever does not repent - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. And do not spy or backbite each other. Would one of you like to eat the flesh of his brother when dead? You would detest it. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Accepting of repentance and Merciful." /49:7-13/
You know, another reason why I dismiss doctrines is because I myself never needed them to know right from wrong.
Growing up, I noticed it's not that easy for everyone. My dad for one has this hierarchy way of dealing with his children. No matter how ridiculous his rules and reasoning, we have to abide by it. He treats us like property that's below him and not individuals standing next to him. Countless times I put him in his place with simple logic and a passive tone in my voice. He'd raise his voice instantly and try and force respect out of me through intimidation.
Oh well, he still raised you. Anyway, look at it as a test of patience
Muslim friends of mine and acquiantances stole, threatened, dominated, disrespected their mothers, dominated their younger siblings..I've seen this happen countless times. Those people do need the qu'ran to teach them principles and self awareness. I never needed that as much as they did.
I guess we have to wait until the simpletons die out and passive, more new age people like me will bring upon a new age in which laws and regulations are less needed as we as a species have become less detached from the earth or god in your understanding.
And what then? Everyone will live happily ever after ? Anyway, there are not that many rules in islam. At least if you take the Quran, for example. There are far less rules in it than let's say, in a western penal code or civil code.
Talking about hell; I might be stereotyping but I'm not the one promoting it as absolute truth whilest not having analyzed the concept in hell from various perceptions. Hell and heaven are not only misinterpreted, but also used to manipulate simpletons into being a better version of themselves. Which is not a bad thing perse.
The highest level of the state of soul in islam is the soul in peace with itself:
Nafs al-Mutma`inna (the Soul at Peace):
Allah refers to this Nafs,
"O Self, in complete rest and satisfaction!" (89:27).
This Nafs is tranquil as it rests on the certitude of Allah.
Ibn Abbas (r) said, "It is the tranquil and believing soul".
Al-Qatadah (r) said, "It is the soul of the believer, made calm by what Allah has promised. Its owner is at rest and content with his knowledge of Allah's Names and Attributes, and with what He has said about Himself and His Messenger (صلى الله عليه و سلم), and with what He has said about what awaits the soul after death: about the departure of the soul, the life in the Barzakh, and the events of the Day of Qiyamah which will follow. So much so that a believer such as this can almost see them with his own eyes. So he submits to the will of Allah and surrenders to Him contentedly, never dissatisfied or complaining, and with his faith never wavering. He does not rejoice at his gains, nor do his afflictions make him despair - for he knows that they were decreed long before they happened to him, even before he was created…."….
(Al-Tabari: Jami' al-Bayan fi Tafsir al-Qur'an, vol. 13, Bulaq 1323)
Also, muslims should strive to achieve excellence:
Ihsan (Arabic: إحسان), also spelled ehsan, is an Arabic term meaning "perfection" or "excellence" . It is a matter of taking one's inner faith (iman) and showing it in both deed and action, a sense of social responsibility borne from religious convictions.In Islam, ihsan is the Muslim responsibility to obtain perfection, or excellence, in worship, such that Muslims try to worship God as if they see Him, and although they cannot see Him (due to the belief that Allah is not made of matter), they undoubtedly believe that He is constantly watching over them. That definition comes from the Hadith of Gabriel in which Muhammad states, "[Ihsan is] to worship God as though you see Him, and if you cannot see Him, then indeed He sees you". (Al-Bukhari and Al-Muslim).
Ihsan, meaning "to do beautiful things", is one of the three dimensions of the Islamic religion (Ara. ad-din): islam, iman and ihsan. In contrast to the emphases of islam (what one should do) and iman (why one should do), the concept of ihsan is primarily associated with intention. One who "does what is beautiful" is called a muhsin. It is generally held that a person can only achieve true ihsan with the help and guidance of Allah, who governs all things. While traditionally Islamic jurists have concentrated on Islam and theologians on Iman, the Sufis have focused their attention on Ihsan.
Some Islamic scholars explain ihsan as being the inner dimension of Islam whereas shariah is often described as the outer dimension.
_____
Sorry for the long quote, but I think it's worth a read. Shouldn't take more than 1-2 minutes.
So islam is not against inner development. And let's not even get onto the topic that some scholars and muslim philosophers derive from the Quran that the soul may exist in more than one dimension at the same time, being capable of switching into higher states of being...etc.
Now that I think about, anything beyond 10.000 years ago cannot be brought up as fact really when it comes to how mankind progressed at that point. Just hints left behind like for instance ancient cites like stonehenge which are much, much older than authorities claim them to be. Our history is a mystery. As I take the Qu'ran seriously, I have to take into account its claim that the first people were monotheistic as a plausible outcome. Then again, their interpretation of god/the universe could be leaning more towards the spiritual/esoteric side.
Alright, at least we can agree that there is a possibility.
Muslims I know personally and others I've seen lectures from all have this approach of having this higher moral understanding over others. And they were always fanatic.
Oh well, you also think that your spiritual way is better. In fact, it's human nature to think that our way is the better. Otherwise, why would we follow it? Of course we folow a path coz we think it's the best. But as I have said, I have no problem with you thinking whatever you wish if you are happy with it. Who knows what's in your heart. I don't. My problem was with generalizing all religious people and calling them sheep. I don't even take it offensively. Call me a sheep. I'm a sheep to God. Not a sheep of humans.
Fanatic shouldn't necessarily be a negative term, if it was fanatism as in zeal to do good.
Although; in my opinion, the Qu'ran has bits and pieces that make more sense than Christian beliefs. Jesus being a prophet makes more sense than him being almighty and all that.
Loool yeah there is a 'right hand's rule' in general. But it's rationality lies in that we are supposed to do dirty things with or left (f.e cleaning our butts and organs after toilet etc >.> ), and keep the right hand for more noble things like eating and shaking hands.
(The guy is not a bright individual to begin with so I don't see him as someone that should speak for Islam) I tell him that in ancient times, hygiene was an issue. You can't wipe your ass and hold food with that same hand because you could get sick. Nowadays we have hygiene and clean water in abundance(atleast where I live) so that rule has no substance anymore.
Exactly, it's more about hygiene. Ritual cleaning before prayers (wudu) is also reasonable coz of hygiene, and it has practical use even today. It's advised to wash yourself more often.
Still he kept insisting on me holding it in my right hand as it's a custom in his household.
Custom is the keyword. Sadly many people do things only out of custom, and sometimes customs that are not islamic, infiltrated the practice of some people.
Those sjieleba's or w/e you spell it, you know those muslim outfits were worn in ancient times as it was more hygienic with in that climate. In holland it serves no purpose other than carrying on tradition.
Well I wear casual western clothes (whilst of course observing the 'dress code' that my private part are covered ). It is not obligatory to wear traditional clothes as long as you keep the minimum modesty required (f.e covering the hair in women's case- which many people say is stupid, well we can get in to a debate over it but I tell you it has its reasons too)
Moving on; My final point basically, as I notice I'm ranting is that it would be a mental evolution if a person would study and have a high interest in the Qu'ran and would try to adopt some of it's teachings in his/her everyday life without having to label him/herself a muslim.
You are not obliged to label yourself a muslim In fact, I meet many fellow westerners who even believe in God and in most teachings of islam, but they don't want to 'officially' usher being muslims for whatever reason.
As it only creates separation and categorization. What do you get if you put 2 neutral individuals in a room, one informed and interested in the Qu'ran and the other in the Bible. None of them identify themselves with their holy book, and wouldn't get butthurt if their book's content would be challenged.
As I quoted from the Quran, earlier, it is said that if God had willed, mankind would be a unified community, but we have this thing called free will, so people differed and formed other communities. It is a test. But Muhammad said in his last major speech, not long before his death:
"All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety (taqwa) and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood."
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You'd get a passive argument without tensity in their words. And I think that's the major issue with mankind. Ego. Pride, tradition, and identifying themselves with a holy book.
Excepth that islam accepts that the preceding holy books also contain revelation from God.
Anyway, it's interesting you mention ego and pride.
"And [mention] when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers." /2:34/
Pride is a trait of satan.
As for the video of that dutch comedian; I find him vulgar too but his argument is more solid than those moslima's.You have to be able to ridicule anything that holds a form of power or else you'll get into some form of dictatorship in which your freedom of speech is undermined.
But there shoudl be limits too, or else I could just say that everyone holds some kind of power, f.e I may be an authority to a kid, so it's ok for the kid to mock me or adults, or students can mock the professor simply coz he is an authority.
Also, if you are not even relgious and don't believe in God and don't belong to any church, then you aren't under its authority/power so why'd you ridicule it? It doesn't affect you after all.
And if someone joins on his/her own free will, it's his/her problem to accept such authority . I think that as long as a religion doesn't start to force non-religious people, there is no reason to ridicule the beliefs. By ridiculing Jesus or Muhammad you didn't really challenge any authority. The authority roots in respect or tradition, or a rational acceptance. So you either should present logical arguments as to why Jesus didn't exist- this is just an example -, or why Muhammad shouldn't be followed (if that's what one claims). If you want to address tradition, ridiculing prophets is not the best way either. Because tradition is carried on by generations. So you should challenge the people who transferred the teachings and prove that they shouldn't be followed anymore. But no need to defame dead prophets...De mortuis nil, nisi bene. This is a secular principle. Ridicule the people who follow the Prophet, but don't ridicule the dead...I think it's basic politeness.
It was a point I was making with that vid. Doesn't mean I condone his vulgar jokes.
And I agree that it's your choice to feel offended or not. But I already quoted how muslims should behave.
Abû Hurayrah relates that a man said to the Prophet (peace be upon him): “Counsel me.” The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Do not get angry.” The man repeated his request many times, but the Prophet (peace be upon him) kept saying: “Do not get angry.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî ]
"And not equal are the good deed and the bad. Repel [evil] by that [deed] which is better; and thereupon the one whom between you and him is enmity [will become] as though he was a devoted friend." /Quran :41:34/
Are you sure your parents didn't just indoctrinate you with djinn stories for you to imagine said demonic eyes under your bed?
I think my interpretation is the new step towards a higher sense of oneness with the universe without the need of servitude and lipservice to ''god/allah''.
But it's not just lipservice...we have to be useful members of society too. The Prophet said:
"The best of people are those that bring most benefit to the rest of mankind."
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And that is where we will have to agree to disagree. Other than my egotastical view on being on the higher ladder, mentally, I leave that side for what it is and focus on what I can learn from the people around me. I learn a lot from just being around friends and I pick up on parts of their personalities that I lack. Despite differing views; The real lessons are learned in everyday moments and every individual you meet will be your teacher in some way.
I actually tried to sarcastically imply that 'scientific evidence' is a rather shady term. One may accept such researches as scientific evidence, someone else may not. Now you may say that you've just pointed out that these researches are unscientific: fine, but then, what scientific evidence do you expect from me to show you about afterlife? The point of an afterlife is that it is beyond this life: therefore it cannot really be examined with scientific methods, coz science examines phenomena of this physical world. Or, do you expect me to die and come back from death in front of your eyes to tell you how was it? You could just say that I was cheating somehow, or that I'm lying, anyway. 
