Misconception about pain and Genjutsu

[Elio]

That's a common misconception. As far as we know the Rinnegan is not an evolution of the Sharingan but rather the Sharingan that is a degeneration or dilution of the Rinnegan. Most theories also blame a cross breed between the Rinnegan and the Jubbi's chakra.

With that being said just because you mastered the black belt on Karate that does not mean a white belt can't land you a blow on your face. Mastering something does not grant you immunity to it, especially since Nagato never had the Sharingan and therefore does not know their techniques nor how the work.

If we were talking about Madara then I could assume that this logic might work but not with Nagato.

Dammit. I was just about to say something like this. >__>

 

[Shunsin no Shisui]

Itachi cannot beat Pein. That's like saying Itachi can beat so6ps, where Nagato does have so6ps eyes. I don't think any genjutsu can affect Pein especially when he expects it. He didn't expect sound genjutsu from Jiraiya which is why one of the paths were defeated.

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On the other hand, he would definitely expect it from Itachi since he's renowned as the "Master of Genjutsu". Pein could introduce a new ability of the so6ps that could be used to counter Izanami.

 

['Nāpalm]

That's a common misconception. As far as we know the Rinnegan is not an evolution of the Sharingan but rather the Sharingan that is a degeneration or dilution of the Rinnegan. Most theories also blame a cross breed between the Rinnegan and the Jubbi's chakra.

With that being said just because you mastered the black belt on Karate that does not mean a white belt can't land you a blow on your face. Mastering something does not grant you immunity to it, especially since Nagato never had the Sharingan and therefore does not know their techniques nor how the work.

If we were talking about Madara then I could assume that this logic might work but not with Nagato.

it is a diluted version of the Rinnegan and of a much lower class but Sharingan originates from the Rinnegan. Madara stated his EMS evolved in the Rinnegan by enabling the Senju DNA he got from Hashirama into his body. The Sage also created the Uchiha bloodline which he passed down his eyes to creating the Sharingan through years of evolution from the Rinnegan to the Uchiha Ancestors eye, to the MS, to the Sharingan. The Sharigan is already known to be a direct descendant of the Rinnegan. And since the Nagato's Rinnegan is Madara's which is a EMS it might have no affect on him because they are madara's eyes

 

[KING KISAME]

Its not that he can only be affected by sound genjutsu
its that he's too advanced to be affected by low level genjutsu
you would probably have to use something like the
bringer of darkness izanami or izanagi

 

[ImNoOne]

well if it is a degeneration of the rinnengan

Rinnengan has to have all of the Sharingan's powers + MORE

am i right - So Nagato should basically have all of the Anti visual genjutsu powers of the sharingan


dont confuse urself

No it doesn't have to be like that. It was stated before in the manga that the byakugan came from the Sharingan yet it's users are not immune to the sharingan's genjutso. Plus as far as we've seen the Rinnegan does not grant you the abillities of the Sharingan. these abilities rely on you. Putted in other words it's the user and not the eyes that unlock the abilities. Example Madara can bring out Susano'O while using Rinnegan but Nagato couldn't because he never had Susano'O to begin with.

My point does no invalidate that Pain is most likely immune to visual Genjutso, but that's because of the rods on the Pains bodies and the fact that Nagato (pain's brains) is never trully exposed to the Genjutso himself. The bodies might get trapped but as they have shared vision and the rods to conduct chakra they wont get caught on it and even if one body is Nagato will simply disrupt the chakra with the black rods. That's why pain wins against Sharingan's Genjutso and not because of the Rinnegan. If it was Nagato only and not pain he'd probably be caught on visual Genjutso.

 

[NarutoSageUzumaki]

Dammit. I was just about to say something like this. >__>

i think Nagato did not know about the Sharingan abilities he had though .... Obito decided to keep him unaware in order to keep him at bay

i dont know how to explain why Nagato did not use any of the Sharingan abilities

No it doesn't have to be like that. It was stated before in the manga that the byakugan came from the Sharingan yet it's users are not immune to the sharingan's genjutso. Plus as far as we've seen the Rinnegan does not grant you the abillities of the Sharingan. these abilities rely on you. Putted in other words it's the user and not the eyes that unlock the abilities. Example Madara can bring out Susano'O while using Rinnegan but Nagato couldn't because he never had Susano'O to begin with.

My point does no invalidate that Pain is most likely immune to visual Genjutso, but that's because of the rods on the Pains bodies and the fact that Nagato (pain's brains) is never trully exposed to the Genjutso himself. The bodies might get trapped but as they have shared vision and the rods to conduct chakra they wont get caught on it and even if one body is Nagato will simply disrupt the chakra with the black rods. That's why pain wins against Sharingan's Genjutso and not because of the Rinnegan. If it was Nagato only and not pain he'd probably be caught on visual Genjutso.

it was not stated ever that the Sharingan derives from the Byakugan


it was stated that Byakugan's insight powers are far superior to the Sharingan

Meaning Byakugan users are much more aware about what is going on than Sharingan users

 

['Nāpalm]

No it doesn't have to be like that. It was stated before in the manga that the byakugan came from the Sharingan yet it's users are not immune to the sharingan's genjutso. Plus as far as we've seen the Rinnegan does not grant you the abillities of the Sharingan. these abilities rely on you. Putted in other words it's the user and not the eyes that unlock the abilities. Example Madara can bring out Susano'O while using Rinnegan but Nagato couldn't because he never had Susano'O to begin with.

My point does no invalidate that Pain is most likely immune to visual Genjutso, but that's because of the rods on the Pains bodies and the fact that Nagato (pain's brains) is never trully exposed to the Genjutso himself. The bodies might get trapped but as they have shared vision and the rods to conduct chakra they wont get caught on it and even if one body is Nagato will simply disrupt the chakra with the black rods. That's why pain wins against Sharingan's Genjutso and not because of the Rinnegan. If it was Nagato only and not pain he'd probably be caught on visual Genjutso.

Kakashi doesn't know what he said, he was just blowing smoke. As far as we know the Hyuga could have originated from the Uchiha but still I'm positive that a Byakugan cannot evolve into a Rinnegan and Mangekyou sharingan came from Rinnegan

 

[Microsword57]

well if it is a degeneration of the rinnengan

Rinnengan has to have all of the Sharingan's powers + MORE

am i right - So Nagato should basically have all of the Anti visual genjutsu powers of the sharingan


dont confuse urself

While it is an ability for the Sharingan to read genjutsu it is also known that the Sharingan techniques have to be developed in order to use them. This is why I do not think this applies to a Non-Uchiha. For Example I do not recall Kakashi ever using his Sharingan to dodge Linear attacks, but we have seen him

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. He developed this. If this was the case for implanted eyes as well then Danzo would have easily saw through Sasuke's

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that made him feel like he had more time left. While it is true the Rinnegan does not lose the Sharingan capabilities it is also shown that you have to develop them which is why the Sharingan stages are necessary. To someone who had their implanted at the rinnegan stage they miss the developing thus can not use want he did not learn. It's like a kid going to college without spending any time in elementary, middle or high school.

 

[Prince Charles]

I dont get wat ur trying to say?

 

[ImNoOne]

it was not stated ever that the Sharingan derives from the Byakugan

Good because I didn't say that either, as for Kakashi did stated quite the oposit. That the Byakugan was derived from the Sharingan

Kakashi doesn't know what he said, he was just blowing smoke. As far as we know the Hyuga could have originated from the Uchiha but still I'm positive that a Byakugan cannot evolve into a Rinnegan and Mangekyou sharingan came from Rinnegan

Well on that field we enter the realm of opinion and I can see where you are coming from. But as I see it we have no definite intel in order to access a proper conclusion on that specific matter.

 

[ImNoOne]

While it is an ability for the Sharingan to read genjutsu it is also known that the Sharingan techniques have to be developed in order to use them. This is why I do not think this applies to a Non-Uchiha. For Example I do not recall Kakashi ever using his Sharingan to dodge Linear attacks, but we have seen him

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. He developed this. If this was the case for implanted eyes as well them Danzo would have easily saw through Sasuke's

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that made him feel like he had more time left. While it is true the Rinnegan does not lose the Sharingan capabilities it is also shown that you have to develop them which is why the Sharingan stages are necessary. To someone who had their implanted at the rinnegan stage they miss the developing thus can not use want he did not learn. It's like a kid going to college without spending anything in elementary, middle or high school.

This exactly.

 

[OnPoint]

This isn't evidence, though Nagato is clearly the stronger of the two.

 

[Harry Balzac]

Rinnengan derives from Sharingan.

Sharingan is capable of reading through any Visual genjutsu

Itachi vs Kurenai for example

Spoiler

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Itachi turned everything around . i hope that answers your question

You can't assume because rinnegan is related to the sharingan it'll be able to break genjutsu. Rinnegan and Sharingan are 2 completely different doujutsu despite being in the same family.

The rinnegan can't read fast movements, the rinnegan doesn't cast genjutsu, the rinnegan alone can't perform sharingan jutsu. So I don't see why one should assume it can break genjutsu just because it comes from the sharingan.

Sharingan is Sharingan, Rinnegan is rinnegan

 

[NarutoSageUzumaki]

While it is an ability for the Sharingan to read genjutsu it is also known that the Sharingan techniques have to be developed in order to use them. This is why I do not think this applies to a Non-Uchiha. For Example I do not recall Kakashi ever using his Sharingan to dodge Linear attacks, but we have seen him

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. He developed this. If this was the case for implanted eyes as well them Danzo would have easily saw through Sasuke's

You must be registered for see links

that made him feel like he had more time left. While it is true the Rinnegan does not lose the Sharingan capabilities it is also shown that you have to develop them which is why the Sharingan stages are necessary. To someone who had their implanted at the rinnegan stage they miss the developing thus can not use want he did not learn. It's like a kid going to college without spending anything in elementary, middle or high school.

well we can say it both ways cant we?

there is not enough proof that Genjutsu can work or not work on Pain

Implanted power- debatable though. Yes he missed the development stage , Yes he never used the Sharingan powers

but i think he was Not told that he can use them. Obito was probably the one who helped him unlock the powers.



Same can be Said about senju Dna though. - Madara has all of Hashirama's powers - we do not know anything about the Senju powers

so there is no reason to speculate , but i think the arguments are pretty similar

 

[ImNoOne]

Madara had time to learn how to preform Hashirama's techniques.

 

[Microsword57]

well we can say it both ways cant we?

there is not enough proof that Genjutsu can work or not work on Pain

Implanted power- debatable though. Yes he missed the development stage , Yes he never used the Sharingan powers

but i think he was Not told that he can use them. Obito was probably the one who helped him unlock the powers.



Same can be Said about senju Dna though. - Madara has all of Hashirama's powers - we do not know anything about the Senju powers

so there is no reason to speculate , but i think the arguments are pretty similar

It's not the same because their is no evidence against Visual Genjutsu on Pain while I and others have given reason why it would work on Pain. Yes Rinnegan in Madara's eyes would read Genjutsu but implanted into Pain then it would not be able to. Pain has the Rinnegan powers only because that is the stage it was implanted into him. Your saying that because the Pain has the Rinnegan he can read Genjutsu but that is a Sharingan power and Pain has never possessed a Sharingan.

 

[NarutoSageUzumaki]

It's not the same because their is no evidence against Visual Genjutsu on Pain while I and others have given reason why it would work on Pain. Yes Rinnegan in Madara's eyes would read Genjutsu but implanted into Pain then it would not be able to. Pain has the Rinnegan powers only because that is the stage it was implanted into him. Your saying that because the Pain has the Rinnegan he can read Genjutsu but that is a Sharingan power and Pain has never possessed a Sharingan.

What of it that he never posessed the Sharingan ? - we dont know if he needs to have the Sharingan before he goes on another level
which is the rinnengan. we dont know do we?

i still am on my side of the Argument


Rinengan is another level of the Sharingan , it would be simply stupifying for him not to have a simple sharingan ability as to evade a genjutsu

 

[ImNoOne]

He has a way to counter visual genjutso, it simply isn't the one you're presenting.

 

[Microsword57]

What of it that he never posessed the Sharingan ? - we dont know if he needs to have the Sharingan before he goes on another level
which is the rinnengan. we dont know do we?

i still am on my side of the Argument


Rinengan is another level of the Sharingan , it would be simply stupifying for him not to have a simple sharingan ability as to evade a genjutsu

I get where you coming from. The Rinnegan is a higher level Sharingan in a way, but the fact that the Rinnegan and Sharingan are actually to completely different Eye Techniques[

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][

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] that is the reason why those who have their's implanted can not have the Sharingan abilities. For Example the

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as well. The Rinnegan being inside of Madara's eyes allows him to use the Susanoo even with the Rinnegan activated[

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]. These same exact eyes are inside of Pain[

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]. Sadly, Pain can not use the Susanoo because he never had the Mangekyou Sharingan to develop the technique.

 

[NarutoSageUzumaki]

He has a way to counter visual genjutso, it simply isn't the one you're presenting.

well fking tell me i would admit that i did not know it