Minato's chakra reserves are VERY large...
- Thread starter Invsblphntm
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Invsblphntm
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Yeah, I'm glad we can agree on this.So we agree on something Zzz
I would've added a few points though that when Minato uses self FTG it takes more chakra than thought because Minato is 179cm with heavy mass. Also on that night he used chakra for keeping the Kyuubi's seal intact during Kushina's labor, summoning Gerotora, performing most complex seals that take huge chakra [Kakashi performed a simple seal on Sasuke's CM but it took a lot of chakra U_U]
As I've said many time before, Minato is a chakra bake-mono
Thanks sir.
Invsblphntm
Active member
As always, I appreciate it.Honestly it was obvious. Only people who disagree are ignorant or haters, but nice thread
Except Kakashi doesn't have very little chakra levels anymore.
Besides, Minato probably can't use kage bunshin because he can't use it, not because of insufficient chakra.
Just like Naruto can't use kagemane no jutsu - it's not that he doesn't have enough chakra, he simply doesn't know this technique.
As for the rest...
Three special jonin required for FTG proves nothing, because it could be related to chakra control and not chakra amount. Once again, it's not a matter of how taxing a jutsu is, it is a matter of how DIFFICULT the jutsu is. That's a difference.
Next, Naruto needed kyuubi chakra to summon Gamabunta but that's because he was just a genin - it was explained in the manga that the better you are at chakra control, the less chakra you require to do jutsu. It was even stated that Naruto sucked at chakra control. In other words, Naruto wasted much chakra while summoning Gamabunta and that's why he needed Kyuubi's chakra. Minato, as opposed to a mid/high-genin probably had chakra control perfected.
MInato teleporting Juubi's bomb doesn't prove anything either, because Edo have INFINITE chakra. In other words, Minato's edo feats don't count.
Minato teleported Kyuubi's bijuudama, but Kakashi, back at the beginning of part 2 when he sucked with chakra reserves, was able to instantly suck in a similar sized explosion after two earlier uses of Kamui. Thus, teleporting bijuudama doesn't seem to require you to have enormous supplies of chakra. No lower than medium, probably, but not that large.
Not to mention we have no idea how much chakra-taxing that teleport was. We only assume that it depends on the target's mass/energy/size, but that assumption came from Kamui. It is a totally different technique and there is no reason to believe it has to behave the same way.
To sum up - it still seems to me Minato has only average chakra reserves.
And no, I'm not a Minato hater, it just doesn't speak to me. =D
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Blaze Release
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Yes Minato does have a healthy reserve, cannot say huge though. However majority of what you have said proves nothing and can easily be disputed.
Invsblphntm
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Bad Touch Yakushi
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Blaze Release
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Good things come to those who wait, though briefly reading through Takos post he says something similar.
Give me some time, im doing something and when ready im come back with scans if you want me to.
As i said healthy reserve, deffo. Huge like you claim which usually i associate with the raikage's, kisame, nagato, base naruto, jiraiya, hashirama, i doubt
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Invsblphntm
Active member
Currently I am unable to make formal posts so I guess I'll be holding off on large posting as well. And as I stated Minato is at least about 50% of Kisame, which in itself is large.
Anyway, I'll be waiting.
blue666666
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Bad Touch Yakushi
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Invsblphntm
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Blaze Release
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Ill say a few things. Going through the thread it appears does who do not agree get branded a hater. A trait i have noticed on nb. What i am saying is that anybody who tries that nonsense with me, will get shot down. I am after all feeling like my 07/08 self surprisingly. Perhaps a little motivation to discuss still there somehow, surprising i know.
Anyway it appears a few manga scans elude me along with the site i get my databook references for, usually the actual scan rather than writing therefore ill try my best to find the manga/db scans, if not ill be using narutopedia as a second source. That site, yes it also uploads ingame and anime stuff however majority of its statements are true an are usually referenced.
Lets start.
1. you said the hiraishin because of the fact that it requires 3 special jonins to produce its because of its chakra usage. "It requires three average Tokubetsu Jōnin to use the jutsu, likely due to chakra constraints". However you yourself wasn't sure and used 'likely' which shows you are not show yourself.
Njinjutsu class doesn;t so much determine your chakra, but rather your skill.
those 3 shinobi's are gemna, raido, both special jonins a rank that is below that of the actual jonin rank as these shinobi's lack the skill overall of a jonin. The third guy, i have no idea who he is but most likely another special jonin.
As i said jutsu classification from E to S is mostly down to skill. How difficult is it to produce and that is why the academy techniques:
Henge
Kawarimi
Bunshin
Are all E rank techniques.
Likewise that is why the kage bunshin a technique that is has rank A difficulty has been stated to be a jonin level technique
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Wiki basically lays it out rather easily. What can you do without wiki, makes life easier those damn bastards
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It makes every sense that a shinobi who overall is lacking the skill of a jonin should not be able to produce my themselves a technique of S rank difficulty as they lack the skill to do so on their own therefore accompanied with others is what will allow them to achieve something a kage level shinobi on heir own can do.
2. Hiraishin size. We know for fact that from the original kuchiyose to kamui (kakashi's) to hiraishin itself that, the larger the item the more chakra is needed to teleport it. Minato basically said this when he needed to master up quiet a bit to transport both himself and kurama [
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]and later admitted that he was running low and kushina put up the barrier [
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].While he can manage to use it quiet a bit of time, on himself, a human who is little in size compared to kurama and others it will not be as chakra taxing.
3. Kucyiose. Firstly nope, hiraishin principle is similar to that of the kuchiyose [
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]and not the Gyaku Kuchiyose no Jutsu [
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], Self explanatory tbh. Counterpart, but its canonically stated to work on the principle of the kuchiyose and not the Gyaku Kuchiyose.
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4. Naruto was briefly given power by kurama which he then used to summon gamabunta.
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However if you notice this chakra like cloak around him was just enough to summon gamabunta and that was it.
Agains't neji however he seems to have tapped into more of kurama;s chakra than what he did during his training with jiraiya and if you notice he had the luxury of being cloak in this chakra for a much longer period and even used it for the final duration of the fight agains't neji
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.You cannot say the naruto that fought neji with kurama's help had the same amount of chakra when he used kurama to summon gamabunta because clearly we see that agains;t neji he has tapped into more.
My next point is linked with the fact that naruto didn't truly need kurama to summon gamabunta but rather his chakra control is lacking. Ill also be explaining stamina, chakra its gathering to execute ninutsu and the kucyiose.
Firstly Naruto's chakra control sucks, because one.
1. He has no talent
2. Kurama's influence
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3. Orochimaru used Gogyō Fūin which doesn't help naruto's chakra control. Jiraiya spotted it and used the Gogyō Kaiin
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.Jiraiya later said that he going to teach him how to use kurama's chakra
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Here jiraiya states that the technique he plans on teaching naruto requires more than his normal chakra
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An ambigious statement whether he is trying to teach naruto how to control the fox via the use of the kuchiyose led him to say that, or naruto's chakra really isn't enough to summon gamabunta.
However notice what jiraiya says at the end, when naruto asks him of chakra control. He says "but with your large amount of stamina you should focus on power before control". Note the word stamina and not chakra.
So far naruto's chakra control has been in two forms. The tree climbing and walking on water, but have their own purpose.
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Stamina is the base of chakra.
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Basically spiritual and physical energy is stamina.
When both of these energies are mixed/moulded to you create chakra. [
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] They are two different thingsWhen people usually talk about ninjutsu usage and chakra, they firstly forget stamina.
i think majority think that a shinobi converts 100% of their stamina into chakra from the get go. That is actually false.
Shinobi's are constantly converting their stamina into chakra when needed. None convert all their stamina into chakra in one go. Kakashi explain it
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and
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.No shinobi converts all their stamina into chakra in one go. Its a gradual process that is determined by what technique they want to use. That is the whole point of chakra control.
Lets say the regular kuchyiose requires 40% of a users chakra, therefore covert 40% of their stamina into chakra and have the remaining 60% stamina, a shinobi with excellent chakra control will get this.
Naruto's case however using the example given with the bunshin
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If a technique requires 30%, he creates extra 20%, therefore he has 50% stamina left and just convrted 50% into chakra. But in his case it goes further. He uses only 10% of this of this 50% chakra to create a technique that requires 30% therefore he has wasted 40% of his chakra, but still left with 50% of his stamina
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If naruto was to use his own chakra to try and summon gamabunta, its not that he cannot, but rather his chakra control will not allow him to
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. The size of what you summon is determined by how manya chakra you actually use. If naruto is molding not only far more chakra than needed to produce the technique and but also wasting majority of this chakra he has molded, he is going to up not being able to summon something that he theoretically going by his stamina stat of 4 should be able to and ends up with summoning tad poles.Naruto's chakra control is why he couldn't summon gamabunta by himself and not because he is lacking in reserves. Naruto has a stat of 4 for stamina in part 1. That stat is more than enough to summon gamabunta and in fact we gave seen shinobi's with lesser stamina stat summon something of similar size to kurama.
Its this very reason why as jiraiya stated again after naruto asked him about chakra control he opted to rely on the fox's chakra instead because even if naruto was to waste a fair bit, he will still be left with a massive chakra enough to summon gamabunta
"but with your large amount of stamina you should focus on power before control".
Jiraiya had the exact same trouble. Jiraiya was poisoned, however he still has the exact same stamina he had. However due to the poison wasn't able to convert his stamina into chakra properly (chakra control) and ended up summoning tap poles. Huge reserves however chakra control due to the posion, hindered him and its after a while did he regain his senses was he able to convert this stamina into chakra and execute the technique properly.
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As for the kage bunshin. Any shinobi can use it as long as they have know the signs. The usage of the technique isn't a testament of your reserve but rather how long you can hold it for, that is what determines your stamina. Can explain that later in a post, kinda tired.
Haven't proof read my post, but i hope you get the general idea
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Invsblphntm
Active member
Not sure where this idea is coming from, I just find it ridiculous that Minato is getting underrated so heavily. I do not indulge in name calling...
Didn't you say later in your post that a technique [Kage Bunshin in your case] may be used as long as you know the signs but the only restraint is stamina? Would that not imply that the restraint here is stamina or chakra reserves?
The technique itself is still just as the Kuchiyose, correct? He is teleporting himself several times along with teleporting Kurama/its blasts several times, and summoning Gamabunta. Teleporting Kurama is even more chakra-taxing than summoning a boss summon like Gamabunta and teleporting its blast is no easy feat in itself. And add to that he teleported the Juubi's Bijudama which was about the size of the Juubi itself; this is similar to Kakashi trying to use Kamui on the Juubi, he needed Kurama's chakra to do it. It is an amazing feat.
Irrelevant to the point to be honest.
I believe you are mistaken here.
Naruto needed Kurama's chakra to summon Gamabunta because his own wasn't enough. That's why as soon as he summoned Gamabunta, Kurama's chakra was all used up because it was that chakra-taxing.
In Neji's fight, Naruto did not have to use such a chakra-taxing technique to defeat him and relied more on his Taijutsu and Kage Bunshins like normal.
While it is true that Naruto's chakra control in Part I has been quite lackluster, it is not to be underestimated. Jiraiya used Gogyō Kaiin to rid Orochimaru's influence on Naruto before he ever learned how to summon Gamabunta so that is a non factor. And as you yourself stated, Jiraiya says base Naruto's chakra/stamina was not enough to summon Gamabunta. He needs the Kyuubi's chakra to summon Gamabunta; well at least in Part I.My next point is linked with the fact that naruto didn't truly need kurama to summon gamabunta but rather his chakra control is lacking. Ill also be explaining stamina, chakra its gathering to execute ninutsu and the kucyiose.
Firstly Naruto's chakra control sucks, because one.
1. He has no talent
2. Kurama's influenceYou must be registered for see links
3. Orochimaru used Gogyō Fūin which doesn't help naruto's chakra control. Jiraiya spotted it and used the Gogyō Kaiin
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links.
Jiraiya later said that he going to teach him how to use kurama's chakra
You must be registered for see links
Here jiraiya states that the technique he plans on teaching naruto requires more than his normal chakra
You must be registered for see links
An ambigious statement whether he is trying to teach naruto how to control the fox via the use of the kuchiyose led him to say that, or naruto's chakra really isn't enough to summon gamabunta.
However notice what jiraiya says at the end, when naruto asks him of chakra control. He says "but with your large amount of stamina you should focus on power before control". Note the word stamina and not chakra.
So far naruto's chakra control has been in two forms. The tree climbing and walking on water, but have their own purpose.You must be registered for see links
While it is true that chakra control will help with jutsus like the Kuchiyose, it is impossible when a Shinobi lacks the proper chakra reserves [someone like Kakashi can not summon Gamabunta]. Minato has to have the chakra reserves/stamina to use the Kuchiyose/Hiraishin as much as he does regardless. Chakra control can only take you so far, shown by Itachi [who is likely one of the best at chakra control] losing to Sasuke in a battle of Katon. [
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]A master of chakra control [Itachi] can not do jutsus on the same scale as a chakra monster [Naruto]. Minato is a combination of both.
Like I said, this just makes the idea that Minato can not even use Kage Bunshin that much more ridiculous.
And good post by the way, but I feel like you overestimate chakra control too much. It can't take give you the ability to replicate the feats Minato does without something like large chakra reserves backing it up.
Nice post but the OP has some good points as well. I agree with the 3 jonins using Hiraishin. I don't think that chakra is the reason why 3 of them is needed to perform FTG.Ill say a few things. Going through the thread it appears does who do not agree get branded a hater. A trait i have noticed on nb. What i am saying is that anybody who tries that nonsense with me, will get shot down. I am after all feeling like my 07/08 self surprisingly. Perhaps a little motivation to discuss still there somehow, surprising i know.
Anyway it appears a few manga scans elude me along with the site i get my databook references for, usually the actual scan rather than writing therefore ill try my best to find the manga/db scans, if not ill be using narutopedia as a second source. That site, yes it also uploads ingame and anime stuff however majority of its statements are true an are usually referenced.
Lets start.
1. you said the hiraishin because of the fact that it requires 3 special jonins to produce its because of its chakra usage. "It requires three average Tokubetsu Jōnin to use the jutsu, likely due to chakra constraints". However you yourself wasn't sure and used 'likely' which shows you are not show yourself.
Njinjutsu class doesn;t so much determine your chakra, but rather your skill.
those 3 shinobi's are gemna, raido, both special jonins a rank that is below that of the actual jonin rank as these shinobi's lack the skill overall of a jonin. The third guy, i have no idea who he is but most likely another special jonin.
As i said jutsu classification from E to S is mostly down to skill. How difficult is it to produce and that is why the academy techniques:
Henge
Kawarimi
Bunshin
Are all E rank techniques.
Likewise that is why the kage bunshin a technique that is has rank A difficulty has been stated to be a jonin level technique
You must be registered for see links
Wiki basically lays it out rather easily. What can you do without wiki, makes life easier those damn bastards
You must be registered for see links
It makes every sense that a shinobi who overall is lacking the skill of a jonin should not be able to produce my themselves a technique of S rank difficulty as they lack the skill to do so on their own therefore accompanied with others is what will allow them to achieve something a kage level shinobi on heir own can do.
2. Hiraishin size. We know for fact that from the original kuchiyose to kamui (kakashi's) to hiraishin itself that, the larger the item the more chakra is needed to teleport it. Minato basically said this when he needed to master up quiet a bit to transport both himself and kurama [You must be registered for see links]and later admitted that he was running low and kushina put up the barrier [You must be registered for see links].
While he can manage to use it quiet a bit of time, on himself, a human who is little in size compared to kurama and others it will not be as chakra taxing.
3. Kucyiose. Firstly nope, hiraishin principle is similar to that of the kuchiyose [You must be registered for see links]and not the Gyaku Kuchiyose no Jutsu [You must be registered for see links], Self explanatory tbh. Counterpart, but its canonically stated to work on the principle of the kuchiyose and not the Gyaku Kuchiyose.
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4. Naruto was briefly given power by kurama which he then used to summon gamabunta.
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However if you notice this chakra like cloak around him was just enough to summon gamabunta and that was it.
Agains't neji however he seems to have tapped into more of kurama;s chakra than what he did during his training with jiraiya and if you notice he had the luxury of being cloak in this chakra for a much longer period and even used it for the final duration of the fight agains't nejiYou must be registered for see links.
You cannot say the naruto that fought neji with kurama's help had the same amount of chakra when he used kurama to summon gamabunta because clearly we see that agains;t neji he has tapped into more.
My next point is linked with the fact that naruto didn't truly need kurama to summon gamabunta but rather his chakra control is lacking. Ill also be explaining stamina, chakra its gathering to execute ninutsu and the kucyiose.
Firstly Naruto's chakra control sucks, because one.
1. He has no talent
2. Kurama's influenceYou must be registered for see links
3. Orochimaru used Gogyō Fūin which doesn't help naruto's chakra control. Jiraiya spotted it and used the Gogyō Kaiin
You must be registered for see links
You must be registered for see links.
Jiraiya later said that he going to teach him how to use kurama's chakra
You must be registered for see links
Here jiraiya states that the technique he plans on teaching naruto requires more than his normal chakra
You must be registered for see links
An ambigious statement whether he is trying to teach naruto how to control the fox via the use of the kuchiyose led him to say that, or naruto's chakra really isn't enough to summon gamabunta.
However notice what jiraiya says at the end, when naruto asks him of chakra control. He says "but with your large amount of stamina you should focus on power before control". Note the word stamina and not chakra.
So far naruto's chakra control has been in two forms. The tree climbing and walking on water, but have their own purpose.You must be registered for see links
Stamina is the base of chakra.
You must be registered for see links
Basically spiritual and physical energy is stamina.
When both of these energies are mixed/moulded to you create chakra. [You must be registered for see links] They are two different things
When people usually talk about ninjutsu usage and chakra, they firstly forget stamina.
i think majority think that a shinobi converts 100% of their stamina into chakra from the get go. That is actually false.
Shinobi's are constantly converting their stamina into chakra when needed. None convert all their stamina into chakra in one go. Kakashi explain itYou must be registered for see linksandYou must be registered for see links.
No shinobi converts all their stamina into chakra in one go. Its a gradual process that is determined by what technique they want to use. That is the whole point of chakra control.
Lets say the regular kuchyiose requires 40% of a users chakra, therefore covert 40% of their stamina into chakra and have the remaining 60% stamina, a shinobi with excellent chakra control will get this.
Naruto's case however using the example given with the bunshin
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If a technique requires 30%, he creates extra 20%, therefore he has 50% stamina left and just convrted 50% into chakra. But in his case it goes further. He uses only 10% of this of this 50% chakra to create a technique that requires 30% therefore he has wasted 40% of his chakra, but still left with 50% of his stamina
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If naruto was to use his own chakra to try and summon gamabunta, its not that he cannot, but rather his chakra control will not allow him toYou must be registered for see links. The size of what you summon is determined by how manya chakra you actually use. If naruto is molding not only far more chakra than needed to produce the technique and but also wasting majority of this chakra he has molded, he is going to up not being able to summon something that he theoretically going by his stamina stat of 4 should be able to and ends up with summoning tad poles.
Naruto's chakra control is why he couldn't summon gamabunta by himself and not because he is lacking in reserves. Naruto has a stat of 4 for stamina in part 1. That stat is more than enough to summon gamabunta and in fact we gave seen shinobi's with lesser stamina stat summon something of similar size to kurama.
Its this very reason why as jiraiya stated again after naruto asked him about chakra control he opted to rely on the fox's chakra instead because even if naruto was to waste a fair bit, he will still be left with a massive chakra enough to summon gamabunta
"but with your large amount of stamina you should focus on power before control".
Jiraiya had the exact same trouble. Jiraiya was poisoned, however he still has the exact same stamina he had. However due to the poison wasn't able to convert his stamina into chakra properly (chakra control) and ended up summoning tap poles. Huge reserves however chakra control due to the posion, hindered him and its after a while did he regain his senses was he able to convert this stamina into chakra and execute the technique properly.
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As for the kage bunshin. Any shinobi can use it as long as they have know the signs. The usage of the technique isn't a testament of your reserve but rather how long you can hold it for, that is what determines your stamina. Can explain that later in a post, kinda tired.
Haven't proof read my post, but i hope you get the general idea
About summoning the gamabunta part..Naruto needed Kurama's chakra because he can't summon bunta with his own and not the other way around. The seal that ORO placed on Naruto was already corrected by Jman at this time. The problem is not his chakra control but rather his chakra needed to summon bunta. That seal placed by ORO was the reason why Naruto can't control his chakra well.
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Before unsealing Oro's seal, Naruto can't even do the water training because he lacks chakra control
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After unsealing Oro's seal, naruto can control his chakra well
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All of the above scan was before Jman taught him how to summon bunta. Now, how can you say that Naruto can't summon bunta because he lacks chakra control at this time? Your scan above is true at the same time not. Why? Because you showed us the part where Oro's seal was still in effect.
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Faceless VoiD
Member
wOw, good thread. I agree that Minato have huge chakra reserves... He was the only shinobi seen so far to teleport a 100% kurama + his TBB. That alone speaks to it, and recently teleported the JubiDama...
grizzlyshree
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ReverseZero12
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I think it's pretty obvious that minato has a huge chakra reserve. But anyway, great points, it will really open the eyes of those who for some reason still deny what is already a fact.
Blaze Release
Active member
@Invsblphntm ill be replying accordingly.
1.That point wasn't directed to you, nor anybody here, just reading through the thread and seeing what i see, though it is nothing new and doesn;t just happen on nb. Characters being underrated or overrated has been going on since the beginning of time.
How one person views another character differs.
A fan might say his character beats another.
The opposing fan will disagree. To the fan his character is being underrated. To the opposing fan, that character is being overrated.
It differs, though im not here to discuss that so ill halt on that.
2. Iv'e already explained to you that ninjutsu classification is determined by difficulty and skill.
An s rank technique, something that requires the greatest skill and has the greatest difficulty is something an s rank shinobi or kage level shinobi can produce. However you do not expect special jonins who's skill is below that of the jonin to be able to produce by themselves a technique that a kage level can do.
Do not get it wrong, chakra is very much needed and does decide what technique and the limitations of a technique. However when it comes to classification, its skill and difficulty that determines this.
For the kage bunshin you asked for, i was replying to your ending post regarding this matter and focusing solely on stamina, but skill a certain level of skill is required to produce it. Which brings me to my next topic.
As previously mentioned majority either think a shinobi converts all their stamina into chakra at once, or they completely forget that as shinobi actually starts with stamina and not chakra and its a continuous process of converting this stamina into chakra, which is determined by what technique a shinobi decides to use
Reason i am saying this is that i usually hear people say "if he uses the kage bunshin he is cuts his chakra in half therefore he has 50% left". They assume that a shinobi either starts with chakra from the start and not stamina or a shinobi converts all this stamina into chakra from the get go.
This is another problem, we don't know exactly how much chakra a technique takes up which is as shame because it would solve alot of problems, like this one or vs threads. Like in the RP system though i do not compete, they use a system where they have stamina bars numbered, but also how much chakra exactly a technique takes. If such info was implemented in the DB along with the technique description it would go a long way in solving some of these troubles.
Anyway for the sake of this, lets assume the kage bunshin to create 1 takes 20% of a users stamina and the user has perfect chakra control. Therefore the shinobi converts 20% of his stamina into chakra. Both clones along with yourself will have 10% chakra. However the remaining 80% stamina isn't wasted on clone's its just the chakra. Im saying this because as i said people think shinobi's start with chakra as base therefore by using the kage bunshin they split their chakra and have noting left forgetting that their stamina remains and its only their chakra that is split.
Back on topic with ninjutsu classification.
If you notice difficulty and skill is always given a class of E to S.
We have examples. The bingo book only records the most dangerous and powerful criminals and have been given class S, that is due to the difficulty of the task and the opponent.
Likewise in a ninja mission, this classification is also given to shinobi's and tasks.
These classes whether ninjutsu or tasks is always determined by skill and difficult. From E to S.
I will not continue with this section as i do not believe you have anything more to say, regarding this part.
3. The barrier and the original hiraishin both works is determined by size, however they are not the same technique.
While he used the barrier to teleport to the kurama's dama and the juubi's dama, if he tried teleporting the actual jubi the same way he did with kurama uding the original hiraishin, it will cost him all his chakra, that is if he does have that much in the first place.
4. Fair enough
5. You assume naruto gained the exact same chakra from kurama when he summoned gamabunta to when he used it agains't neji, yet nothing states they were consistent. What you state may be true, however naruto has just started being able to tap into it, while agains't neji he has had more experience. Like wise in gamabunta's case It was just enough to summon him
Neji's however we saw a difference
Nd even had a cloak
It may be that favouring you naruto might have even tapped into more of kurama;s chakra than he did agains't neji. Or he tapped into more agains't neji that he did when summoning gamabunta, however do see a clear difference, which shows that there was no set or should i say how much chakra he tapped from kurama was constant when he summoned gamabunta to when he used it agains't neji
Il feel like instead of addressing both you and ajpn920 separately ill address you both with this post as you are saying the same thing. First you are wrong Invsblphntm, its not chakra control nor is it the fact that sasuke is a better katon user than itachi, but rather the cm2 which sasuke had activated increased his katon and overpowered itachi's [
Anyway as i said, a shinobi with a stamina stat of 4 should be enough to summon gamabunta.
Unlee you are telling me that a stamina stat of 4 is not only needed but also kurama's chakra added is what is needed to summon gamabunta. If that is the case then why has shinobi's with even lesser stamina that base naruto summoned something equal in size to gamabunta.
That whole section of the manga was basically explaining chakra control and what it is, along with stamina.
Naurto was already lacking in chakra control due to the influence of kurama and was even further hindered by orochimaru. Yes jiraiya's relieving naruto from orochimaru's seal allowed him to get better at controlling his chakra and was even able to work on water, however that doesn't mean that naruto became a chakra god, he still had kurama's chakra that didn't help his chakra control.
Jiraiya firstly tried chakra control control, but gave up and decided to teach naruto how to use kurama;s chakra and he used the kuchiyose as an example.
Jiraiya later stated that naruto needs to focus on power before control because releasing oro's seal alone doesn't grant naruto's perfect chakra control
Power over control is what allowed naruto to summon gamabunta. Not that he couldn't with his own reserves but rather his chakra control still sucks. This power was basically compensating for his chakra control.
As kakashi stated again
Late explained here
What jiraiya did was conpensate his chakra control with power, by that ill give you an example.
What you can summon with the kuchiyose is determined by size. The bigger the thing you want to summon, the more chakra required.
Lets say to summon gamabunta a shinobi needs 70% chakra.
In naruto's case he will end up converting 90% of his stamina into chakra therefore he has 10% stamina left.
However he does something even worse which is that though he has molded more than enough to summon gamabunta, he wasted lets say 30%, therefore he has 40%, that will not make him summon gamabunta.
With power over control however you can summon gamabunta with chakra to spare.
The same scenario, but this time using kurama's chakra. Kakashi noted that kurama's chakra was 3 times or so as potent as his own [
So lets say kurama's chakra is 3 times as powerful, instead of the 70% chakra that is required to summon gamabunta, naruto gets 210%. Even if he wastes 100% due to chakra control he has 110% left, still more than enough to summon gamabunta.
That process was jiraiya compensating for naruto's control with power and taking advantage of this hidden power that dwells inside him. If naruto has perfect chakra control, he really doesn't need kurama to summon gamabunta, let alone a stamina of 4 + kurama.
Same thing happened as i said to jiraiya.
The poison or whatever didn't suck his stamina or chakra. It just make him not able to mold the amount of chakra needed to summon gamabunta and ended up summoning tadpoles. Something that the manga stated
Again what jiraiya did was compensating control with power and wanting naruto to learn as quick as possible how to use this power. Minato has a healthy reserve, however when i hear huge the people who'se name come into my mind are those that have been hyped for their reserve, the kisame's, raikage's, hashirama or any senju, etc. This very reason may be the reason why its heavily hinted or perhaps stated that minato didn't have sm, one of the requirements being a high reserve.
Haven't proof read, too long
1.That point wasn't directed to you, nor anybody here, just reading through the thread and seeing what i see, though it is nothing new and doesn;t just happen on nb. Characters being underrated or overrated has been going on since the beginning of time.
How one person views another character differs.
A fan might say his character beats another.
The opposing fan will disagree. To the fan his character is being underrated. To the opposing fan, that character is being overrated.
It differs, though im not here to discuss that so ill halt on that.
2. Iv'e already explained to you that ninjutsu classification is determined by difficulty and skill.
An s rank technique, something that requires the greatest skill and has the greatest difficulty is something an s rank shinobi or kage level shinobi can produce. However you do not expect special jonins who's skill is below that of the jonin to be able to produce by themselves a technique that a kage level can do.
Do not get it wrong, chakra is very much needed and does decide what technique and the limitations of a technique. However when it comes to classification, its skill and difficulty that determines this.
For the kage bunshin you asked for, i was replying to your ending post regarding this matter and focusing solely on stamina, but skill a certain level of skill is required to produce it. Which brings me to my next topic.
As previously mentioned majority either think a shinobi converts all their stamina into chakra at once, or they completely forget that as shinobi actually starts with stamina and not chakra and its a continuous process of converting this stamina into chakra, which is determined by what technique a shinobi decides to use
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Reason i am saying this is that i usually hear people say "if he uses the kage bunshin he is cuts his chakra in half therefore he has 50% left". They assume that a shinobi either starts with chakra from the start and not stamina or a shinobi converts all this stamina into chakra from the get go.
This is another problem, we don't know exactly how much chakra a technique takes up which is as shame because it would solve alot of problems, like this one or vs threads. Like in the RP system though i do not compete, they use a system where they have stamina bars numbered, but also how much chakra exactly a technique takes. If such info was implemented in the DB along with the technique description it would go a long way in solving some of these troubles.
Anyway for the sake of this, lets assume the kage bunshin to create 1 takes 20% of a users stamina and the user has perfect chakra control. Therefore the shinobi converts 20% of his stamina into chakra. Both clones along with yourself will have 10% chakra. However the remaining 80% stamina isn't wasted on clone's its just the chakra. Im saying this because as i said people think shinobi's start with chakra as base therefore by using the kage bunshin they split their chakra and have noting left forgetting that their stamina remains and its only their chakra that is split.
Back on topic with ninjutsu classification.
If you notice difficulty and skill is always given a class of E to S.
We have examples. The bingo book only records the most dangerous and powerful criminals and have been given class S, that is due to the difficulty of the task and the opponent.
Likewise in a ninja mission, this classification is also given to shinobi's and tasks.
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These classes whether ninjutsu or tasks is always determined by skill and difficult. From E to S.
I will not continue with this section as i do not believe you have anything more to say, regarding this part.
3. The barrier and the original hiraishin both works is determined by size, however they are not the same technique.
While he used the barrier to teleport to the kurama's dama and the juubi's dama, if he tried teleporting the actual jubi the same way he did with kurama uding the original hiraishin, it will cost him all his chakra, that is if he does have that much in the first place.
4. Fair enough
5. You assume naruto gained the exact same chakra from kurama when he summoned gamabunta to when he used it agains't neji, yet nothing states they were consistent. What you state may be true, however naruto has just started being able to tap into it, while agains't neji he has had more experience. Like wise in gamabunta's case It was just enough to summon him
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Neji's however we saw a difference
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Nd even had a cloak
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It may be that favouring you naruto might have even tapped into more of kurama;s chakra than he did agains't neji. Or he tapped into more agains't neji that he did when summoning gamabunta, however do see a clear difference, which shows that there was no set or should i say how much chakra he tapped from kurama was constant when he summoned gamabunta to when he used it agains't neji
Il feel like instead of addressing both you and ajpn920 separately ill address you both with this post as you are saying the same thing. First you are wrong Invsblphntm, its not chakra control nor is it the fact that sasuke is a better katon user than itachi, but rather the cm2 which sasuke had activated increased his katon and overpowered itachi's [
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]. I do not want to get off topic nor confuse you, but its the second state (cm2) that gave sasuke;s katon a boost over itachi's.Anyway as i said, a shinobi with a stamina stat of 4 should be enough to summon gamabunta.
Unlee you are telling me that a stamina stat of 4 is not only needed but also kurama's chakra added is what is needed to summon gamabunta. If that is the case then why has shinobi's with even lesser stamina that base naruto summoned something equal in size to gamabunta.
That whole section of the manga was basically explaining chakra control and what it is, along with stamina.
Naurto was already lacking in chakra control due to the influence of kurama and was even further hindered by orochimaru. Yes jiraiya's relieving naruto from orochimaru's seal allowed him to get better at controlling his chakra and was even able to work on water, however that doesn't mean that naruto became a chakra god, he still had kurama's chakra that didn't help his chakra control.
Jiraiya firstly tried chakra control control, but gave up and decided to teach naruto how to use kurama;s chakra and he used the kuchiyose as an example.
Jiraiya later stated that naruto needs to focus on power before control because releasing oro's seal alone doesn't grant naruto's perfect chakra control
You must be registered for see links
Power over control is what allowed naruto to summon gamabunta. Not that he couldn't with his own reserves but rather his chakra control still sucks. This power was basically compensating for his chakra control.
As kakashi stated again
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Late explained here
You must be registered for see links
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What jiraiya did was conpensate his chakra control with power, by that ill give you an example.
What you can summon with the kuchiyose is determined by size. The bigger the thing you want to summon, the more chakra required.
Lets say to summon gamabunta a shinobi needs 70% chakra.
In naruto's case he will end up converting 90% of his stamina into chakra therefore he has 10% stamina left.
However he does something even worse which is that though he has molded more than enough to summon gamabunta, he wasted lets say 30%, therefore he has 40%, that will not make him summon gamabunta.
With power over control however you can summon gamabunta with chakra to spare.
The same scenario, but this time using kurama's chakra. Kakashi noted that kurama's chakra was 3 times or so as potent as his own [
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]So lets say kurama's chakra is 3 times as powerful, instead of the 70% chakra that is required to summon gamabunta, naruto gets 210%. Even if he wastes 100% due to chakra control he has 110% left, still more than enough to summon gamabunta.
That process was jiraiya compensating for naruto's control with power and taking advantage of this hidden power that dwells inside him. If naruto has perfect chakra control, he really doesn't need kurama to summon gamabunta, let alone a stamina of 4 + kurama.
Same thing happened as i said to jiraiya.
The poison or whatever didn't suck his stamina or chakra. It just make him not able to mold the amount of chakra needed to summon gamabunta and ended up summoning tadpoles. Something that the manga stated
You must be registered for see links
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Again what jiraiya did was compensating control with power and wanting naruto to learn as quick as possible how to use this power. Minato has a healthy reserve, however when i hear huge the people who'se name come into my mind are those that have been hyped for their reserve, the kisame's, raikage's, hashirama or any senju, etc. This very reason may be the reason why its heavily hinted or perhaps stated that minato didn't have sm, one of the requirements being a high reserve.
Haven't proof read, too long
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