Minato Vs Hiruzen

[-Vegeta-]

that's great, goodluck finding hype in the manga or databook to show ten ten was the strongest ninja ever -_-


fact is , in the OP the thread maker indicates hhype is allowed when he taljed about it.. why are you here going against the op? your opinions are irrelevant in this thread.. Great that you consider kishi's hype baseless, that's nice

Good luck finding scans of those 1000+ genjutsu you like to speak of. Unlike you I've actually got an argument to support why Minato would win unlike you who's only argument is baseless hype.

Why am I going against the OP? Oh I don't know.....maybe because I actually use logic instead of hype as I've said. Obviously you don't get that though.

I've got a scan that says Minato's strength was unrivaled, but you don't believe that do you? I didn't think so.

When the hype is in favor of a character you like you have no problem believing it, but when it's in favor of a character you don't like you'll simply dismiss it. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Bogard]

Minato cuz he is too fast for Hiruzen

 

[Blaze Release]

Nobody knows who would win, simple because we have no info on either side. Whilst its basically been stated that sarutobi was the strongest hokage and i believe this, just because you are stronger than your opponent doesnt guarantee a win so ive no idea who wins.

Btw can owarij and fourth hokage of the leaf settle their difference. Id like to think both are friends of mine and seeing both go at it is rather sad xd

 

[Chakra Wizard]

Considering Kishi said they're equal, yet he made Hiruzen himself say that Minato was more powerful than him, I honestly don't know what to think.

 

[-Vegeta-]

Nobody knows who would win, simple because we have no info on either side. Whilst its basically been stated that sarutobi was the strongest hokage and i believe this, just because you are stronger than your opponent doesnt guarantee a win so ive no idea who wins.

Btw can owarij and fourth hokage of the leaf settle their difference. Id like to think both are friends of mine and seeing both go at it is rather sad xd

Meh you're right. I don't have any problem with him, but it seems like he has something against Minato fans even ones that are very logical when talking about him like myself.

It also seems like he can't go through a single debate with me without insulting me. It's like if I question his opinion or if I have an opinion that differs from his I'm an idiot -__-

 

[Houssem]

Yo dont go mad just cus' of a thread, and yeah hype is the only thing we got on prime hiruzen and minato so it's allowed to base opinions on it.

 

[Owarij]

Meh you're right. I don't have any problem with him, but it seems like he has something against Minato fans even ones that are very logical when talking about him like myself.

It also seems like he can't go through a single debate with me without insulting me. It's like if I question his opinion or if I have an opinion that differs from his I'm an idiot -__-

No, you were flat out wrong, to do what you did

you came into a thread the op clearly said hype is allowed, and as he says up there ^ , and was questioning why i was using hype? and telling me my hype was baseless? -_-

that was the thread creator's rules..

We don't have anything for hiruzen prime, only that he knew all existing konoha jutsu at that time, he was a master of 1000 genjutsu, was the strongest hokage, and kage of his time
^ and his databook stats

that's all we have..

When i ask a simple question, like what would he do against his genjutsu, when it's Obvious he is skilled in it, from ebisu's statement and his 5 in genjutsu

you say, show me those genjutsu first?
sigh
just had an exam and honestly too tired to deal with that

 

[Houssem]

No, you were flat out wrong, to do what you did

you came into a thread the op clearly said hype is allowed, and as he says up there ^ , and was questioning why i was using hype? and telling me my hype was baseless? -_-

that was the thread creator's rules..

We don't have anything for hiruzen prime, only that he knew all existing konoha jutsu at that time, he was a master of 1000 genjutsu, was the strongest hokage, and kage of his time
^ and his databook stats

that's all we have..

When i ask a simple question, like what would he do against his genjutsu, when it's Obvious he is skilled in it, from ebisu's statement and his 5 in genjutsu

you say, show me those genjutsu first?
sigh
just had an exam and honestly too tired to deal with that

Neither databook 3 or 2 did say he's the strongest and im checkin for the first ^^

 

[Owarij]

Neither databook 3 or 2 did say he's the strongest and im checkin for the first ^^

Databook 1, Page 117
"???????"?????????????

The "Professor" revered as the strongest Hokage in history.

Databook 1, Page 119
"????""??"??,???????????????????.

"History's Strongest", "Genius", etc., there are many words that describe the Sandaime Hokage.

DB2 Pg 59
The deciding factor for life and death in the fight between the Sandaime and Orochimaru is ‘age.’ If only the third were 10 years younger, the outcome could have been different

DB2 Pg 84
Konohamaru paragraph:
??????????????????????????“?????”????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??

Konohamaru, descended from Sandaime, who was praised as history’s strongest Hokage.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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+ more that i'm too tired to dig upo

Originally Posted by First Databook, page 265
「プロフェッサー●[...]里にある全ての術を知り尽くし、かつそれらを自在に使いこなすことに由来。」
'The Professor: [...] The origin [of this nickname] lies in him knowing thoroughly all the jutsu that exist in the village and also being able to use them easily at will.'

Originally Posted by First Databook, page 119 「[...]木ノ葉隠れの里に存在する全ての術に精通し、"プロフェッサー"の愛称まで持つ彼[...]」 '[...] He who even holds the affectionate name of "Professor," being well-versed in every jutsu that exists in the village of Konohagakure [...]

You get the point though?




And also, the 2nd fanbook said he had counters for all konoha jutsu he knew of

as well as other interesting things, that we didn't know of at the time, such as

Yondaime (Minato fought Madara whilst battling Kyuubi.

Termui Mei is Godaime Mizukage.

Kankuro is now the Sand's greatest Puppeteer.

Kumogakure prides Taijutsu,Ninjutsu and Kenjutsu.

Basically unimportant crap, i'm not going to all list out, becuase most of them we could have guessed it already , especially that last one

 

[Houssem]

Yeh get your point a lil bit already admited that after seing facts : Hiruzen prime > Minato or equal > old hiruzen but never > Hashirama. , im gonna check for konohamaru part, but as i told it his page on databook 2 and 3 didnt say he's the strongest, and the battle coud've been diffrent doesnt mean he's the strongest. ( and for that image i dont iruka's and oro opinion over madara's :d )
P.S : Still downloading the 1st databook im gonna check it later.
( Databook 3 :
Sarutobi Hiruzen

Main text

There is no Hokage in Konoha's history who was as popular with his people as Hiruzen. In addition to the ninjutsu expertise and skill for which he was nicknamed "The Professor", he bore in his heart a fatherly affection for the whole village of Konoha. Even for the rebellion-plotting Uchiha clan, he made no exception.

Captions (Top to bottom)

-The gentle warmth of a father who took Konoha in his soft embrace.

-So they can meet you again one day... When you're older.

Picture comment

-He thought of every villager as a child of his own. Including even Orochimaru. )

2nd databook
( Hokage (Sandaime) Pgs. 143-145

Pg143
Konoha's protector, who illuminates the village with his calm, smiling face.

Sandaime made an effort to develop the Konoha village that the First and Second made.
The people of the village loved their Hokage and his gentle smile.
He lived for the village, he died for the village...
His last moments, they suited him. People cannot live eternally, but the ring of life continues eternally.

Sandaime's dying wish was that somebody will, without fail, illuminate the village---.

CAPTION: Strength and kindness were united in the heart of this great person. They way he was while alive even now burns in the chests of most people.

Pg144
Watch over Konoha's future-----!

Leader

"Sannin" the praised Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru were reared by Sandaime. Just from this fact, you can imagine the
level of coaching they had. Brought up to develop and contribute to the village, they were the pride of the village.

TOP CAPTION: The peeping Jiraiya, would show himself to be somewhat of a fool... By no means does he not have greatness, he's just a lively shinobi.

MIDDLE CAPTION: Training where Genin's have to take the bell from the Jounin is still practised even now.

Father of the People

Sandaime lived as a 'father' for the people of Konoha village. This kind, powerful figure, at his most severe moment, died at the hands of a coming person, his face had multiple layers. Sandaime repeated many experiences as a shinobi, the passing scene of carnage signified this. Sandaime's fatherly characteristics are rooted in the kindness that resides in just the person who knows the pain of his heart.

(i'm assuming Iruka..due to the caption)

BOTTOM CAPTION:His 'will of fire' has succeeded in the village of Konoha. The young Iruka lives by these words.

Pg145
Because of the village he lived, because of the village he fell, he became a hero in his last moments!

Orochimaru

The protector of Konoha village overthrew this unexpected enemy. His pupil. The eagerly raised pupil, Orochimaru, planned to capsize Konoha, he challenged Sandaime to a battle. Betrayed by the person who grew up in the same village, Sandaime stood up to him for the people of the village.

Hokage versus Hokage

He heroically mastered the fight with Orochimaru. With a forbidden technique, the Shodai and Nidaime were resurrected. Sandaime kept a straight face while being pressured to murder his Hokage comrades, Sandaime showed complete devotion to putting his life on the line in battle. Due to this, Konoha village buds anew...

Sealing his life away

By destroying himself, he therefore controlled the battle. Sandaime threw away his own soul to endure eternal agony, to rescue Konoha village. He did this, yet wasn't regretful. Konoha's shinobi will contine to burn with the "will of fire" because they have been convinced of the fact that the village will be forever illuminated.)

 

[Owarij]

. ( and for that image i dont iruka's and oro opinion over madara's :d

madara's opinion? madara just said hashirama was the stronger than the 5 kage , not that he was the strongest hokage...

and iruka wasn't stating an opinion, he was literally stating, everyone called him the strongest hokage

And even oro in the manga, started thinking to himself, that if hiruzen was 10 years younger he'd be dead, when he was sweating and what now

 

[-Vegeta-]

No, you were flat out wrong, to do what you did

you came into a thread the op clearly said hype is allowed, and as he says up there ^ , and was questioning why i was using hype? and telling me my hype was baseless? -_-


that was the thread creator's rules..

I never questioned why you were using hype, only asking if you had scans of said genjutsu since you asked how Minato would counter it 1000+ genjutsu? You can't just bring in jutsu that Hiruzen has never demonstrated in battle and then ask how he'll counter them if they've never been shown -_-

And as I said I don't care about the OP. I'm using logic to determine who'd win this fight, not hype.

We don't have anything for hiruzen prime, only that he knew all existing konoha jutsu at that time, he was a master of 1000 genjutsu, was the strongest hokage, and kage of his time
^ and his databook stats

that's all we have..

Hence why he should be kept out of versus threads because we have no idea what he's capable of in his prime thus a logical argument for him cannot be presented.

When i ask a simple question, like what would he do against his genjutsu, when it's Obvious he is skilled in it, from ebisu's statement and his 5 in genjutsu

you say, show me those genjutsu first?
sigh
just had an exam and honestly too tired to deal with that[/COLOR]

You can't just bring jutsu into a versus thread that have never been demonstrated in a fight.

That's like me bringing izanami into a versus thread when we have no clue what it can do thus cannot accurately determine how it affects the outcome of a fight.

 

[Houssem]

Oro woud be dead, not hashirama . Plus hashirama being completly controled by oro meaning he coudnt use his taijutsu as he pleases so we cant judge on that.
But you got me on what madara said
tho' if that 1st databook translates are correct i'll give it to you . ^^

 

[Owarij]

I never questioned why you were using hype, only asking if you had scans of said genjutsu since you asked how Minato would counter it 1000+ genjutsu? You can't just bring in jutsu that Hiruzen has never demonstrated in battle and then ask how he'll counter them if they've never been shown -_-

And as I said I don't care about the OP. I'm using logic to determine who'd win this fight, not hype.

All your answer had to include was what counters minato has for genjutsu.. on a whole

If you want to go by what little facts hiruzen has,
He has a indisputable 5 in genjutsu, According to databook he is a master of the said skill

Tell me, with fact , what minato has to defeat genjutsu users,
Not hiruzen, any non ocular master genjutsu user



Oro woud be dead, not hashirama . Plus hashirama being completly controled by oro meaning he coudnt use his taijutsu as he pleases so we cant judge on that.
But you got me on what madara said
tho' if that 1st databook translates are correct i'll give it to you . ^^

Urm tobirama and hashirama were fighting perfectly like their olden days, just like kabuto's edo's were fighten just like they used to..
Only when the edo user takes direct control of them, then yea sure you'll see a difference... But orochimaru's edo tensei was perfected,

I've said it before, the only reason that entire battle looks weak, was because it was in part 1 ... part 2 had a boost in everyones power and capabilities.... in part 1 shruiken were actually dangerous lol...

In part 1 doing this

You must be registered for see images

Was considered amazing... as you can see by oro and the anbu's reaction... yet in part 2 , mei, darui, kisame, and prob more have that stuff like that...

 

[-Vegeta-]

All your answer had to include was what counters minato has for genjutsu.. on a whole

If you want to go by what little facts hiruzen has,
He has a indisputable 5 in genjutsu, According to databook he is a master of the said skill

Tell me, with fact , what minato has to defeat genjutsu users,
Not hiruzen, any non ocular master genjutsu user

All one has to do is release chakra throughout their body as Jiraiya taught Naruto during the time skip to disrupt the illusion.

Anyway I can do the same thing in saying what can Hiruzen do to counter all of Minato summonings? A contract with the toads allows one to summon any frog meaning Bunta, Gamahiro, ma and pa, Gamaken, and etc.

There's also Minato's speed Hiruzen would have to deal with.

 

[Houssem]

Kabuto edo is more perfect than oro, kabuto is only letting some edo's acting as they feel.
Still dont feel that hiruzen > hashirama.
anyway this is not a hashirama vs hiruzen thread, and since i've been convinced that hiruzen > Minato or equal i think thats it ^^

 

[Owarij]

Kabuto edo is more perfect than oro, kabuto is only letting some edo's acting as the feel.
Still dont feel that hiruzen > hashirama.
anyway this is not a hashirama vs horuzen thread, and since i've been convinced that hiruzen > Minato or equal i think thats it ^^

Lol yeah, i'm just going off the manga, hype and feats are both neccesary in getting info on a character.... kishi can't show everyone..

all white fang has is hype, but enough hype for us to know that he's stronger than tenten...

Hiruzen to this day holds the most hype

Why do i know hashirama was never the strongest?

Kabuto said that all the ninjas on hashirama's level are no longer around... Aka dead..

this means he wasn't some god that no kage could ever beat.... There were ninjas - plural, that were just as strong as him....

You can try listing them, but hiruzen is bound to come up on the list

I also use what was shown in the manga... he was a student of the 1st and 2nd, and knows how they fight, all their jutsu, and would know how to counter them....

Things like that are crucial in winning a fight.... To each his own though

All one has to do is release chakra throughout their body as Jiraiya taught Naruto during the time skip to disrupt the illusion.

Anyway I can do the same thing in saying what can Hiruzen do to counter all of Minato summonings? A contract with the toads allows one to summon any frog meaning Bunta, Gamahiro, ma and pa, Gamaken, and etc.

There's also Minato's speed Hiruzen would have to deal with.

His speed, as in ftg, as i said can be dealt with more efficently than how bee did it... any genius who knows how his ftg works, which hiruzen no doubt does..
would
1) stay away from his kunai

2) if minato tries ftg level2 , quickly throw back a shruken and use shruken shadow clone jutsu, to keep them far away from you as possible...

3) Any suiton jutsu of the sort to wash them away can also work...

as for his summonings, he has enma, who's diamond hard...
we honestly don't know anything about him, he was able to break apart hashirama's wood easily, so we know its strength..

He showed two forms, so i can't say anything about that..

Only that in his myth he's based on, he has 72 forms, including staff mode..

once again, hiruzen really only has hype, you can't ask for feats from a non feat character.. Only for us to stretch out imagination and use the hype he was given..


I've seen an entire debate on Kakashi vs Tobirama go smoothly for over 30 or so pages... and tobirama barely has any feats at all...

 

[Houssem]

Kabuto also said that hashi powers were so impressive that they're considred as a fairy tail.
So basicly you're saying : hiruzen > EMS Madara.
Amazing healing abilities, abilties to control tailed beasts, amazing taijutsu and speed ( cus senju ), AND impressive mokouton. ( wich means he can also use suiton and doton ).
Im no hasi' fan cus i go for itachi, but still i cant get it in my head

 

[Owarij]

Kabuto also said that hashi powers were so impressive that they're considred as a fairy tail.
So basicly you're saying : hiruzen > EMS Madara.
Amazing healing abilities, abilties to control tailed beasts, amazing taijutsu and speed ( cus senju ), AND impressive mokouton. ( wich means he can also use suiton and doton ).
Im no hasi' fan cus i go for itachi, but still i cant get it in my head

tell me , which hype is better there? fairy tail or god?

and i've never said hiruzen can beat madara...
and look right after that fairy tail hype, kabuto says there were ninja on his level that are dead.. don't exxagerate that little peace of hype... yes he was extremely strong , but still, lets not over do it..

fights in naruto aren't linear like dbz, abc logic doesn't work

Just because hiruzen can beat hashi, doesn't mean he can beat madara..
Look at the things that are for hiruzen's advantage in that fight... He was trained by the man, has knowledge of all his techniques and his style of fighting...

what does hiruzen even know about how madara fights? does he even know is ems abilities? he was literally a kid when that was going on...Hiruzen would be walking right into the quickest amaterasu death he's ever seen...

Just like if any random ninja, who has no idea of itachi's abilities goes up to him, they are most likely dead..

Just because gai can beat kisame, and kisame can beat kakashi, doesn't mean gai can beat kakashi...

No naruto fight ever goes that way.. each ninja has unique abilities that go against other ninja....

 

[-Vegeta-]

His speed, as in ftg, as i said can be dealt with more efficently than how bee did it... any genius who knows how his ftg works, which hiruzen no doubt does..
would
1) stay away from his kunai

2) if minato tries ftg level2 , quickly throw back a shruken and use shruken shadow clone jutsu, to keep them far away from you as possible...

3) Any suiton jutsu of the sort to wash them away can also work...

You speak as if these are the only ways Minato can utilize his FTG. With his summons and FTG it would be very difficult for Hiruzen to deal with FTG.

Why? Well considering every toad summon has great mobility they could easily jump in the air and distract Hiruzen while Minato throws a bunch of his kunai at Hiruzen. Hiruzen would have two issues to deal with in the kunai and the toads coming at him. If he tried his shuriken shadow clone jutsu to counter the kunai than the toads would be on him in a minute. If he tried to deal with the toads then the kunai would get near him and Minato could easily teleport and cut his head off.

This is just one of many other combinations Minato could use with FTG.

as for his summonings, he has enma, who's diamond hard...
we honestly don't know anything about him, he was able to break apart hashirama's wood easily, so we know its strength..

Enma is indeed strong, but compared to the toads he's an ant when it comes to their size and all the toads also have great mobility, so they could easily dodge him while in his staff mode. Gamabunta, Gamaken, and Gamahiro also have huge swords to aid them in battle. Gamabunta can also use water style as well. Enma's powerful, but I highly doubt he can take on several huge powerful summonings at once.

He showed two forms, so i can't say anything about that..

Only that in his myth he's based on, he has 72 forms, including staff mode..

once again, hiruzen really only has hype, you can't ask for feats from a non feat character.. Only for us to stretch out imagination and use the hype he was given..

And this is why he should be kept out of versus threads because we just don't know what he's capable of in his prime and therefore cannot accurately predict the outcome of a fight between him and someone else.

I've seen an entire debate on Kakashi vs Tobirama go smoothly for over 30 or so pages... and tobirama barely has any feats at all...

The difference is Tobirama actually has had some of his jutsu fleshed out in battle unlike prime Hiruzen. All we can base Hiruzen's abilities off of is what we've seen in his old age.