Minato cannot use TBB, Fanboys STFU

[P3ĮÑ]

Ohh butthurt is everywhere, im a member of many forums, this is why NB has the gayest members.

 

[The ProphecY]

Spoiler

*Sigh*

Minato is a Jin. Get over it. The reaper death seal binds whatever the user specifies to the body of the user, which the demon then takes both the object sealed inside the user along with the user's life. In Minato's case, the kyuubi chakra was sealed in him, but then his own life was sealed and taken by the demon, which is the reason a marking can be seen on the user's body before the demon takes their lives. That's why it's called a reaper death SEAL. If nothing were being sealed into the user, there would be no need for a marking on the user's body BEFORE HE DIES.

Spoiler

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That right there is the point at which Minato became a Jin. Kurama's yin was sealed inside of him, not the demon. Minato can even feel how heavy the chakra is, thus confirming the chakra is actually sealed inside of him, not the demon. Heck you even see the chakra stolen from the fox going into Minato, not the demon. Reaper death seal is basically 8-trigram except you die afterwards. If Minato had remained alive and been able to tame Kurama, he would be able to do everything he can do as an Edo with him. Remember time still runs even in the reaper death seal. You and what is sealed inside of you are said to be fighting each other for as long as you are within the demon's belly. So Minato and Kurama's yin chakra were battling one another for 16 years. That's PLENTY of time for Minato to tame and gain the respect and help of Kurama. It's the same process that Naruto went through. He had to battle Kurama's yang to get KCM. And then eventually gain Kurama's respect and trust to get BM. So how any of you see it as impossible for Minato to have done the same thing is beyond me

In the case of Hiruzen and Oro's Arm: Oro RELEASED his arms, Tobirama, and Hashirama. That is the reason why Hiruzen wasn't revived with their chakra still inside of him. Oro didn't release Kurama's yin chakra when he revived Minato, so Minato retained the chakra and remained it's Jin. It's really not that hard to understand.

In the case of Obito and the Edo Jins: The purpose of Obito's plan is to have the tailed beast chakra's sealed to the GEDO. Remember? Gedo? Shell of the juubi? Which needs the tailed beasts sealed inside of it to be revived? Why would he go through the effort of sealing the chakra back into dead bodies when they are already in the proper vessel and he can easily bind them temporarily with chakra rods and it serve the same purpose? Do you not remember how much the akatsuki kept complaining about how long it took to seal those things in the Gedo the first time? Why would he want to go through with that again? And on top of that, the members which helped him seal all that chakra are all dead.......

Aside from this, Minato was already shown doing a combo TBB attack with Naruto. And he mastered Rasengan which is based off the TBB. I really don't know what manga any of you are reading that suggests he can't be a jin, he can't use TBB or he can't do this stuff alive. But everything clearly shows that he can if you are just willing to pay attention

Such an intelligent post! Very detailed explanation

@OP: perhaps the real title should be...
How BM Minato cannot use TBB? Haters STFU!!!

Ow, just a simple enlightenment, entering BijiuMode grants Minato all the strength and abilities of his corresponding tailed beast much like Naruto & KillerBee. & we all know that Naruto & Killer Bee can utilize TBB. I don't see any reason why Minato can't do the same. Not to mention we already seen him using TBB with Naruto.

 

[ReverseZero12]

People only see what they want to see. There's a scan hovering around with Minato using the tbb. He has all the prerequisites required for a tbb yet you think he can't?

You cannot give character feats he doesn't have, that's pretty obvious. What pre-requisites? He hasn't shown signs of being able to use it. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying that he hasn't shown that feat yet so you cannot use it in an argument. If he shows it in a future chapter then naturally, that changes everything.

 

[Bronze]

how about you actually STFU and your sh1tty threads get closed due to their retardation.

Minato combined his TBB with Naruto showing that he can do it himself. Besides Rasengan is based on TBB and since he already mastered BM, then he can do it just like Madara able to do Rinnegan techniques.

 

[Midday]

You cannot give character feats he doesn't have, that's pretty obvious. What pre-requisites? He hasn't shown signs of being able to use it. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying that he hasn't shown that feat yet so you cannot use it in an argument. If he shows it in a future chapter then naturally, that changes everything.

I'm not giving him any feats he doesn't have. We know a tbb needs x and y to be performed he has x and y and a solid understanding of tbb. A tbb is basically a rasengan with bijuu chakra. On top of the fact that there's a scan of bm Minato doing it.

 

[ReverseZero12]

I'm not giving him any feats he doesn't have. We know a tbb needs x and y to be performed he has x and y and a solid understanding of tbb. A tbb is basically a rasengan with bijuu chakra. On top of the fact that there's a scan of bm Minato doing it.

Which scan is it? I think I missed it. I thought he was never showed using it.

 

[Midday]

Which scan is it? I think I missed it. I thought he was never showed using it.

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[ReverseZero12]

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Yeah I found it. My mistake then.

 

[Blaze Release]

1st post: Very interesting way you described the process of the reaper death seal.Think of it this way. As I said before, 8-trigram and RDS are pretty much the same except that you die. It makes sense that the demon would have to seal both the user and the person the user sealed does it not? Think what happens after a jin dies. The sealed beast is then released. This means that simply sealing something inside a body isn't enough because once it dies, if the chakra isn't resealed in something else, it'll escape. The purpose of RDS is to PERMANENTLY seal something for good. So if the demon doesn't seal both the user and the person/object sealed, then the entire point of using the seal is wasted as the object will just escape again. Because the RDS has to take the life of the user, it also has to take what was sealed in the user as well in order to keep it sealed. It's as if the body is a barrier. When the barrier breaks, whatever it was keeping inside is free to roam unless you put up another barrier to keep it in place again. The demon acts as the 2nd, more permanent barrier.

As far as Tobirama and Hashi not knowing Minato, they weren't supposed to. They weren't doing battle with him, they didn't get sealed with Minato, so there's no reason for them to know of one another. I believe the "inside the demon's belly" is a figure of speech. What most likely happens is that the sealed victim and the user are just trapped in a world alone where they are said to "do battle" but most likely can choose to do whatever they want. Seeing as how you would typically use RDS on an enemy and not a friend, fighting is more likely to occur, thus the "doing battle for eternity" thing. So my point still stands. At the point of which Minato's seal appeared on his stomach, he became the jin for Kurama's yin. But once he died, Kurama had to be re-sealed inside the belly in order for the purpose of RDS to be fulfilled. Kurama was still sealed inside Minato, it's just that Minato died, or the barrier broke so to speak.

2nd Post: I didn't say two different things. What you didn't understand (most likely I didn't explain well so don't take that personally) is that ultimately both the user and victim of the seal are trapped inside the demon. That doesn't change the fact that the victim sealed inside the user FIRST (thus the seal on the body) and then both are sealed within the demon's belly. Nothing about that contradicts, they both ultimately end up in the same place. So in the case of Kurama and Minato, if Kurama is sealed within Minato, and Minato ends up inside the demon's belly, then ultimately Kurama is also inside the belly. But I think I know why you got confused at that point. I think you are thinking "same place" in terms of, if Kurama is inside Minato, then he can't be fighting with him. Which is why I brought up the point about the "mental psyche" with Naruto. He and Kurama did battle remember? But Kurama was sealed inside of Naruto. It's the same thing as that. Now don't get me wrong, how the demon's belly allows the two to fight one another I can't say because Kishi didn't spell it out in black and white, but it's clear from the simple fact that Minato was able to tame Kurama and use his powers like a perfect jin that he did manage to tame him at some point. Also as I pointed out in the first point, once a host dies the chakra is released, so in the case of RDS, if the demon has to re-seal the chakra of the victim along with sealing the user, then they both actually end up in the same place in the terms of which you are thinking. Which still makes it possible for Minato to tame Kurama.

As I said Kishi didn't spell it out in black and white so until he says no this is all speculation but it's the best conclusion I can come to that makes sense from what we've given. I hope I've atleast defended my beliefs well enough

Okay i think i follow. So basically it you are hinting at some form of double sealing, where the initial stage was the body then, a transfer into the death god. If that is what you are saying, then aren't you more or less stating that minato's or hiruzen's body were merely meduims, acted as a transportation to where what they sealed will eventually dwell.

If that is what you are saying and hinting at some form of double seals, the final stage of where the beast dwells is the shiki fjuin and not the first stage; minato's body. What i am saying is that Minato's body in the end is not what contained the fox as it wouldv'e been revived by now, but rather the shiki fujin is what was the fox's true/final place in which it dwelled. The fact that kurama hasn't been revived this long is enough to say minato wasn't a host or rather his body didn't contain the bijuu, it just acted as a gateway into the death god

Example the manga heavily hints that the only jin to die with its beast if i remember correctly was rin and yondaime Mizukage. Will it may not have been stated, how the mizukage died, the fact that the isobu was without a jinchrucki validates what kushina and later Ei/Tsunade were saying. When the mizukage was resurrected he was in the same position as the other jin's that had their bijuu extracted. He didn't come back with the isobu as that has left his body and reformed, so obito went through the same stage with him as he did with the other previous host and temporarily used the mazo on him.

The shiki fujin seals is like another other uzumaki based fuinjutsu in design and appears on the user as well, regardless of their jin state, like Hiruzen.

On the second point, yes the two groups of people were not fighting each other, however if they are still within the death god, regardless of any form of combat you'd think they would still know each other. But as you said, it could be that there are many sections within the god, where only the user and what has been sealed 'do battle'. The other is the term 'battle for all eternity' is a figure of speech, (as hiruzen nor anybody who has used the technique has been brought back (until recently) to tell us of their experience )but rather a state of nothingness, or eternal bliss, or death.

Anyway nice explanation, but im not convinced. Appears to be another one of those things were kishi doesn't seem to want to explicitly state why, so members are using their own initiative to come up with possible reasons, no different to another example being kakashi/obito's ms and the issue of blindness. Nothing explicitly stated in the manga, but rather going off possible theories. Personally i believe kishi intentionally creates loop holes or should i say makes some of his explanation vague, therefore he uses this as a possible way to wriggle his way back into something that he has stated but, has stated vaguely so there is room for him to go back

 

[Troyg39]

Okay i think i follow. So basically it you are hinting at some form of double sealing, where the initial stage was the body then, a transfer into the death god. If that is what you are saying, then aren't you more or less stating that minato's or hiruzen's body were merely meduims, acted as a transportation to where what they sealed will eventually dwell.

Yes that's what I'm saying but what you are missing is that every sealing process has a medium. The user always acts as that medium. Even in 8-trigram, the user is the medium that connects what is in binding and where it will be bound. Think Minato, Kurama, and Naruto. If Minato uses 8-trigram to bind Kurama to Naruto, then Naruto is the barrier holding Kurama, the bound, in place, and Minato is the medium at which the process is taking place. Pointing out the medium changes nothing of the process. There are just two barriers for RDS and the medium for RDS just also acts as the barrier at one point. Minato was a barrier for Kurama, which is why the seal marking was placed on him, but once his life was taken, the demon had to act as a second barrier in order to keep Kurama in place.

Spoiler

If that is what you are saying and hinting at some form of double seals, the final stage of where the beast dwells is the shiki fjuin and not the first stage; minato's body. What i am saying is that Minato's body in the end is not what contained the fox as it wouldv'e been revived by now, but rather the shiki fujin is what was the fox's true/final place in which it dwelled. The fact that kurama hasn't been revived this long is enough to say minato wasn't a host or rather his body didn't contain the bijuu, it just acted as a gateway into the death god

Think about this: When Oro revived Minato, Kurama was revived as well. His chakra was sealed inside of Minato before Minato died, so when revived, Kurama's chakra automatically comes back too. Otherwise Kurama's chakra should've remained inside the belly of the demon should he not have? Oro didn't revive or release him like he did the kages, yet he was brought back. I guess the best way to put it is that the demon acts to help bind Kurama to the soul of Minato so that Kurama is still bound even after the soul leaves the body. Like I said before Minato felt how heavy the chakra was, meaning that the chakra had to enter his body, thus making him a jin by definition. And the fact that when he was revived, Kurama's chakra automatically accompanied again is proof that Kurama was sealed within Minato. So the process goes like this: Minato seals the chakra in his body (as proof of the marking on his belly), and then the demon seals kurama's chakra to his soul so that Kurama's chakra will remain sealed along with Minato as Minato must give his life in order to use the sealing jutsu. So when Minato's soul returns to the edo tensei body, Kurama was revived too within him because he is bound to Minato, not the demon. So yes they both end up in the same place, but that is because Kurama has to go wherever Minato's soul goes because that he is ultimately bound to Minato.

Remember the goal of RDS is to permanently seal the target. The way that the demon permanently seals things is through death, by taking the soul of the victim, so the user must have the victim binded to his/her soul. Kurama got sealed in the body first because the body acts as way to contain the target in order for the demon to seal it within the soul of the user and trap it in it's belly. It's just like how with 8-trigram, the target needs to be contained before it's sealed. Since the user summons the demon, the demon is connected to his soul only and can only use his soul to permanently seal other targets. So the target must be sealed into the body first in order to keep it still for the demon to bind it to the user's soul. Otherwise the demon would just go after the target by himself and skip the user altogether

Spoiler

Example the manga heavily hints that the only jin to die with its beast if i remember correctly was rin and yondaime Mizukage. Will it may not have been stated, how the mizukage died, the fact that the isobu was without a jinchrucki validates what kushina and later Ei/Tsunade were saying. When the mizukage was resurrected he was in the same position as the other jin's that had their bijuu extracted. He didn't come back with the isobu as that has left his body and reformed, so obito went through the same stage with him as he did with the other previous host and temporarily used the mazo on him.

I believe my answer above explains this as well. The demon acts as a medium to bind the victim to the soul of the user. Which is why Kurama's chakra came back with Minato's soul. Otherwise there's no way to explain this happening because Oro didn't revive or release Kurama, so Kurama clearly wasn't binded to the demon's belly. He was trapped there yes, but only becaue Minato's soul was trapped there. He goes where Minato goes.

Spoiler

The shiki fujin seals is like another other uzumaki based fuinjutsu in design and appears on the user as well, regardless of their jin state, like Hiruzen.

The seal appears on the user because the user has something sealed inside of it.

Spoiler

On the second point, yes the two groups of people were not fighting each other, however if they are still within the death god, regardless of any form of combat you'd think they would still know each other. But as you said, it could be that there are many sections within the god, where only the user and what has been sealed 'do battle'. The other is the term 'battle for all eternity' is a figure of speech, (as hiruzen nor anybody who has used the technique has been brought back (until recently) to tell us of their experience )but rather a state of nothingness, or eternal bliss, or death.

You answered you first statement in this paragraph with the following statement. And this is why I said Kishi hasn't written out the process in black and white so if that's what you are looking for you won't get that. But until there's a better way to explain how Minato mangaged to get KCM, something we've only seen possible by doing battle with Kurama to gain access to the chakra, then how else would you explain it? The only other way is to say "Minato is simply that good". I'm as big of a fan of him as the next guy, but come on now. The manga hints pretty heavily that something had to occur between them in death, which suggests that they weren't just in a void space of death where time stood still

Spoiler

Anyway nice explanation, but im not convinced. Appears to be another one of those things were kishi doesn't seem to want to explicitly state why, so members are using their own initiative to come up with possible reasons, no different to another example being kakashi/obito's ms and the issue of blindness. Nothing explicitly stated in the manga, but rather going off possible theories. Personally i believe kishi intentionally creates loop holes or should i say makes some of his explanation vague, therefore he uses this as a possible way to wriggle his way back into something that he has stated but, has stated vaguely so there is room for him to go back

Again, you are correct in saying that Kishi hasn't explained this out right as he hasn't done with a lot of things. I feel as if you wont be convinced of anything unless Kishi devotes a detailed explanation of it. Which isn't really a bad thing. It keeps you open. But at the same time if you go by that philosophy, then most of which is taken as fact in the manga can't really be because Kishi hasn't said it in black and white. TenTen can't be assumed to be weaker than Obito because they've never come in contact and TenTen's lack of screen time makes it impossible to accurately determine her exact strength. Plus Kishi has never said "TenTen can't beat Obito". But it's a logical assumption based off of what we are given in the manga. And that is what I'm basing my opinion on. So far I believe I've been able to answer every response you've had pretty well.

It's perfectly fine not to take my words as fact, I don't claim them as such myself. I'm not Kishi, but I believe that with this post I've been able to make my case better an what most on the opposing side of the argument can. At least better than what any of the opposing cases within this thread were, which is really why I posted in the first place. I understand people wanting to wait on Kishi for the final judgement, but I don't understand how any of the conclusions I addressed in my original post were met based on the manga. For reasons I've explained, Minato was more likely a jin before he died, can use TBB, and would've had a chance at doing what he can do as an edo if he had lived. Anyway this a good conversation. If you respond again or have anything interesting to add I'd love for you to tell me about it. Discussion is what it's all about. You definitely made me think hard on this one and pushed me to really think about this. My answers may seem pretty good but they didn't come easy