[Discussion] Mihawk is>Shanks right?

[ZoroXTashigi]

Its not those 4 pirates "needing their crews and discrediting their personal power".. its those 4 pirates already having strong as well fleets and many territories , their personal power being the thing to make it all happen. TERRITORIES/FLEETS are what makes a Yonko. Not being the 4 strongest pirates in 1 vs 1. WSS is strictly about ones ability in 1 vs 1 fights as a swordsman.

Shanks - Swordsman /Haki
Mihawk- Swordsman / Haki

And it has nothing to do with one "Easily" losing to Mihawk in a fight, but simply losing to him. Both have the same fighting styles shown so far.. unless Shanks is revealed to be a brawler like luffy.. then thats a different story. BUT from what has been shown, he is a Swordsman/Haki user like Mihawk.. and they have dueled before.. and Mihawk is the one who i hailed as the WSS.. meaning Mihawk bested shanks.

Nah ... Mihawk hold the WSS title before duel with Shanks ... Their duel end up Draw ... that why Mihawk still hold the title. If Mihawk already bested him, Shanks will not assume Mihawk still have desire to duel with him.

 

[A v i]

Lol now you're making me laugh..



xd I'm sorryyyy dude.



hmm.. then I guess that would make it both irrelevant and relevant at the same time. In the same universe.. woah..



Not my opinion. Reality. - a basketball is not the same thing as a voice or a pair of legs. Sorry bro..



absolutely nothing. Thanks for proving my point further.



It being an external object is not irrelevant at all though.. you can remove Jordans basketball without doing anything to Jordan. How can you remove M.J.'s voice? How can you physically grab M.J.'s voice and just take it away like you can do with the basketball?

Oh and yes IF you removed both that would accomplish the same effect, that was a fact. Good job. Your first one in a while.



Yes.. actually it does matter. Take away a basketball from someone at your local basketball court. Then go take away someone's voice. Oh and don't forget to take away someone's legs after.. lol come on bro, are you serious? XD



Nope. Actually was extremely relevant.. and continues to prove that I'm right.



I knew you would say this.. only problem is we don't have Devil Fruits in our world.. so in the world of One Piece, all you have to do is eat that DF once and now it is apart of you. Now it is how your body exists. That's all there is to it. GG tho buddy..



It is actually a fact and not my opinion that they are different. If they weren't different then all three would be the strongest swordsman simultaneously.

It is however your opinion that you disagree with the facts.

And if that is how you want to end this, that's fine with me. (Agreeing to disagree) Because I can't keep posting facts just for you to be ignorant and remain in denial.




Nope. Just facts.




WSS means strongest solely with a sword. In a fight to the death however, Shanks can utilize his haki, fists, legs, feet, head, elbows, gun perhaps, and/or any other means of attack that he has in his arsenal, and pull the win.

His skill and physical might is what makes him WSS not his sword. His skills as a swordsman would always be with in him whether or not he wields a sword. So the sword being an outlier means nothing. We all understand that a sword is needed to prove is skill but By taking his sword you're also restricting him from using his art of expertise"aka his skill as a swordsman" so you're supposed to do the same with the holders of other titles which would result in them loosing their titles just like Mihawk.

Shanks using legs, hand, head or whatever the method he uses to fight other than swordsmanship would get trashed by Mihawk. Shanks is a swordsman so he fights at his best with a sword therefore if Shanks at his best couldn't beat him then he's not doing jack with his other skills which are inferior to his own art of expertise which is beneath that of Mihawk. Can sword less Zoro beat someone that he can not beat with a sword? Not happening. It doesn't matter even if you can fight using multitude of ways , if your primary fighting style happened to be swordsmanship then you're not beating Mihawk.

 

[LBeezy]

Correct, the same way a basketball isn't the same as a sword. They are equivalent because it's an analogy.





You mean the same way Jordan can do absolutely nothing to prove his title without his ball?

Says you.


Stab him in the throat. Rip out of his tongue. Burn his windpipe with acid. Blow off his lower jaw. Break his jaw. Slash his throat. Kick him really, really hard in the neck. Expose him to a really nasty strain of influenza.

Therefore they are analogous, proving my point.



You're comparing Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, and Usain Bolt to Mihawk, Whitebeard, and Kaido. And you're asking me if my analogies are serious. YOU started the ridiculous analogy war from the very jump.


So you can't compare DF abilities to things in the real-world because DF are fictional, but you can compare fictional characters to real world people. Logical.


Nope. It is a fact that what defines them is different. It is your opinion that means they can't be in the same category or be compared.

The bolded makes absolutely no sense btw. They aren't the same title, no one ever said this ever; they are three separate titles that are capable of being compared.


Just read this back to yourself out loud a few times.


You have an inflated sense of the importance of your own words. Every one of your conclusions are opinions that were based on facts, but still opinions because the facts you're using can be used to draw different interpretations.





Nope, World's Strongest Swordsman means that of all people who are swordsmen, Mihawk is the strongest. Kaku utilized martial arts and a DF, and he was still classified as a swordsman. Zoro defeated him because he is the stronger swordsman. So the same way Zoro, the stronger swordsman, beat Kaku( using his fists, legs, feet, head, elbows, and/or any other means of attack that he has in his arsenal) with just his swordsmanship, Mihawk, the stronger swordsman, can beat Shanks(using his his fists, legs, feet, head, elbows, and/or any other means of attack that he has in his arsenal).

Oh okay so you're saying you want to end this as agreeing to disagree?

Because as you say, I did state facts, BUT formulated an opinion at the end of the day. And since you also have your own opinion based on said facts, and both of our opinions are different, then we cannot be swayed or convinced to believe in anything else?

Is this agreeing to disagree?

Because there's no way anything that you said above made sense to me. I'm sorry. But It seems more like this is purely an opinion debate, and the only way one would be or could be proven wrong is by Oda himself..

Its not those 4 pirates "needing their crews and discrediting their personal power".. its those 4 pirates already having strong as well fleets and many territories , their personal power being the thing to make it all happen. TERRITORIES/FLEETS are what makes a Yonko. Not being the 4 strongest pirates in 1 vs 1. WSS is strictly about ones ability in 1 vs 1 fights as a swordsman.

Shanks - Swordsman /Haki
Mihawk- Swordsman / Haki

And it has nothing to do with one "Easily" losing to Mihawk in a fight, but simply losing to him. Both have the same fighting styles shown so far.. unless Shanks is revealed to be a brawler like luffy.. then thats a different story. BUT from what has been shown, he is a Swordsman/Haki user like Mihawk.. and they have dueled before.. and Mihawk is the one who i hailed as the WSS.. meaning Mihawk bested shanks.

I see where you're coming from. And I was agreeing with everything you said except for the fact that the Yonko individually are actually the 4 strongest pirates. (I do however understand why Mihawk is not a Yonko. Let's say Yonko was ONLY based on strength, then there would easily be at least 5 Yonko, cause Mihawk would definitely be one. But the criteria for Yonko are not JUST their own personal strength. It is in fact everything you mentioned above. Those parts I do agree with obviously.)

When was Shanks called a swordsman though? And most importantly did He ever say it himself?? (I'm genuinely asking, because of the fact that I don't know the answer.)

And who's Haki has been portrayed to be superior out of the two?

I would agree with you more if what you wrote looked like this

Shanks - has and uses a sword / High level Haki
Mihawk - World's strongest swordsman / Haki

His skill and physical might is what makes him WSS not his sword. His skills as a swordsman would always be with in him whether or not he wields a sword. So the sword being an outlier means nothing. We all understand that a sword is needed to prove is skill but By taking his sword you're also restricting him from using his art of expertise"aka his skill as a swordsman" so you're supposed to do the same with the holders of other titles which would result in them loosing their titles just like Mihawk.

Shanks using legs, hand, head or whatever the method he uses to fight other than swordsmanship would get trashed by Mihawk. Shanks is a swordsman so he fights at his best with a sword therefore if Shanks at his best couldn't beat him then he's not doing jack with his other skills which are inferior to his own art of expertise which is beneath that of Mihawk. Can sword less Zoro beat someone that he can not beat with a sword? Not happening. It doesn't matter even if you can fight using multitude of ways , if your primary fighting style happened to be swordsmanship then you're not beating Mihawk.

You're right that his skill will be with him regardless, but without the sword it is useless.. therefore the title he holds is solely based on swordsmanship. Shanks can fight with him using only swords and lose. But Shanks can fight with him and use everything he's got and win.

I don't understand how people aren't getting this.


"Shanks using legs, hand, head or whatever the method he uses to fight other than swordsmanship would get trashed by Mihawk."

"Trashed" ? Are you serious ?


Again, I ask, has the manga directly stated Shanks as a swordsman? Or has Shanks ever classified himself as a swordsman? (I'm genuinely curious. Because I honestly don't know the answer to this.)

 

[A v i]

You're right that his skill will be with him regardless, but without the sword it is useless.. therefore the title he holds is solely based on swordsmanship. Shanks can fight with him using only swords and lose. But Shanks can fight with him and use everything he's got and win.

I don't understand how people aren't getting this.


"Shanks using legs, hand, head or whatever the method he uses to fight other than swordsmanship would get trashed by Mihawk."

"Trashed" ? Are you serious ?


Again, I ask, has the manga directly stated Shanks as a swordsman? Or has Shanks ever classified himself as a swordsman? (I'm genuinely curious. Because I honestly don't know the answer to this.)

Swordsmanship =/= Sword. It's the skill of an individual. He wasn't stated to be swordsman? Since when does this kind of rules are being used? Oda doesn't have to spoon feed us with every single detail. He was always seen to be fighting with a sword. He once rivaled current WSSM on top of it. These reasons more than enough for any rational reader to call him a swordsman unless you want to be that guy always denies the obvious portrayal and hints from manga just because he doesn't want character X to be weaker than character Y. I don't even understand how you're even making conclusions such as Shanks can use legs, head etc when he's specifically shown to be a swordsman. Based on the hints given so far in the series there is noway he isn't a swordsman.

Yup I am absolutely serious. There is nothing complex about it to understand. Shanks has swordsmanship as his primary fighting style so he'd fight at his best while using swordsmanship. So if he can not defeat Mihawk at his best then he's not being him with something inferior to his art of expertise.If Vergo can't beat someone when he had his bamboo stick then he's not beating him with something else from his arsenal.If Whitebeard cannot beat someone with GGnM power then he's not beating him with something else from his arsenal.If Zoro can not beat character X when he had swords then he's not beating him with something else from his arsenal. So on...

When you fight with your art of expertise, your attacks are at their strongest,your reactions will be at their apex,your striking rate would at it's best,your raw skill would be at it's best. Therefore if your best possible option fails so will all of your other skills which are secondary and are also inferior to your primary fighting style. If a swordsman can intercept a sword strike of match 10 speed then should be able to do the same a kick or punch of match 20 speed. If he can completely block a sword strike strong enough to destroy a mountain then he can do the same with a kick/punch of that of level.If he can make your reflexes and reactions useless when you're fighting with your most comfortable form then he's doing the same even if you fight using some other method. It is as simple that.

 

[WoldOfFingo]

Shanks being a swordsman would just be as rational as him being no swordsman. I hate how people try to force their opinion that Shanks is a swordsman on others, like it's a fact. Oda being the King of unpredictability yet it seems u lot have read his notebooks or something.
It wouldn't be the first time either the idol of a shounen protagonist actually 'hides' their power till that one moment where he goes full out and surprises everyone.

 

[Gregjader]

Don't have the Time to add links to this post So I'm counting on your knowlegde and understanding of the manga. What I got from this thread So far is:
1) Swordsman=> main fighting style revolves around a sword or the use of one.
2) Shanks has used his sword in all the major clashes he has had in the manga. Hence Shanks is a Swordsman.
3) Dracule Hawk-Eyes Mihawk is the World Strongest Swordsman.
4) Mihawk > Shanks.

For some of you it is a fact with no room for discussion.

Now some food for thought:
1) A bisento -Google it and Google sword too by the way- is basically described as a long sword or a sword with a particularly long hilt.
2) Save one or two WhiteBeard has used his bisento for all his major clashes. Hence WhiteBeard is a Swordsman
3) So if we were to go with the arguments and Logic used in this thread So far. We should have WhiteBeard < Mihawk

Well Mihawk himself disagrees. As he places WhiteBeard leagues above him. Thus the WSS=automatic Win against Swordsman goes down.
Then Mihawk Held the title WSS while WhiteBeard had the WSM. Both were alive and active in the same era. And again Mihawk himself admitted inferiority to WhiteBeard. So maybe, just maybe his title has to do with Swordsmanship, what he can with a sword and not that he is the Strongest person wielding a sword.

Now Come at me. And please don't use the "That's because of WhiteBeard's crew argument".

 

[Punk Hazard]

Don't have the Time to add links to this post So I'm counting on your knowlegde and understanding of the manga. What I got from this thread So far is:
1) Swordsman=> main fighting style revolves around a sword or the use of one.
2) Shanks has used his sword in all the major clashes he has had in the manga. Hence Shanks is a Swordsman.
3) Dracule Hawk-Eyes Mihawk is the World Strongest Swordsman.
4) Mihawk > Shanks.

For some of you it is a fact with no room for discussion.

Now some food for thought:
1) A bisento -Google it and Google sword too by the way- is basically described as a long sword or a sword with a particularly long hilt.
2) Save one or two WhiteBeard has used his bisento for all his major clashes. Hence WhiteBeard is a Swordsman
3) So if we were to go with the arguments and Logic used in this thread So far. We should have WhiteBeard > Mihawk

Well Mihawk himself disagrees. As he places WhiteBeard leagues above him. Thus the WSS=automatic Win against Swordsman goes down.
Then Mihawk Held the title WSS while WhiteBeard had the WSM. Both were alive and active in the same era. And again Mihawk himself admitted inferiority to WhiteBeard. So maybe, just maybe his title has to do with Swordsmanship, what he can with a sword and not that he is the Strongest person wielding a sword.

Now Come at me. And please don't use the "That's because of WhiteBeard's crew argument".

I looked up Bisento, and it has numerous descriptions. While some refer to it as a sword, that's not it's immediate and official classification, which would be "pole weapon/polearm." A bisento is also closer to a spear than it is to a sword.

 

[Gregjader]

I looked up Bisento, and it has numerous descriptions. While some refer to it as a sword, that's not it's immediate and official classification, which would be "pole weapon/polearm." A bisento is also closer to a spear than it is to a sword.

In this you are right. It is considered a polearm. So is a glaive. That's a classification. But physically they are more Swordslike. Hence the description. The term polearm has to do with the range the hilt gives them. Did you look into sword as well?

 

[Bogard]

Nah ... Mihawk hold the WSS title before duel with Shanks ... Their duel end up Draw ... that why Mihawk still hold the title. If Mihawk already bested him, Shanks will not assume Mihawk still have desire to duel with him.

We don't know when Mihawk became WSS. The only thing we know of is that at the very least 3years before the beginning of the manga, he already had the title. It may or may not have been after defeating Shanks 10years before the beginning of the manga that he got that title but for now it's speculative

 

[ZoroXTashigi]

We don't know when Mihawk became WSS. The only thing we know of is that at the very least 3years before the beginning of the manga, he already had the title. It may or may not have been after defeating Shanks 10years before the beginning of the manga that he got that title but for now it's speculative

As I said, If Mihawk already beat him, Shanks won't assume that Mihawk still have desire to duel with him. :yeah:

 

[Punk Hazard]

As I said, If Mihawk already beat him, Shanks won't assume that Mihawk still have desire to duel with him. :yeah:

Why? This is under the assumption that people can't fight each other more than once, which isn't anywhere close to true. Garp fought with Roger countless times, same with Roger and Whitebeard. Kaido and Moriah were apparently rivals, so they probably fought many times. Mihawk losing to Shanks or vice versa isn't gonna prevent them from fighting again.

 

[LBeezy]

Swordsmanship =/= Sword. It's the skill of an individual. He wasn't stated to be swordsman? Since when does this kind of rules are being used? Oda doesn't have to spoon feed us with every single detail. He was always seen to be fighting with a sword. He once rivaled current WSSM on top of it. These reasons more than enough for any rational reader to call him a swordsman unless you want to be that guy always denies the obvious portrayal and hints from manga just because he doesn't want character X to be weaker than character Y. I don't even understand how you're even making conclusions such as Shanks can use legs, head etc when he's specifically shown to be a swordsman. Based on the hints given so far in the series there is noway he isn't a swordsman.

Yup I am absolutely serious. There is nothing complex about it to understand. Shanks has swordsmanship as his primary fighting style so he'd fight at his best while using swordsmanship. So if he can not defeat Mihawk at his best then he's not being him with something inferior to his art of expertise.If Vergo can't beat someone when he had his bamboo stick then he's not beating him with something else from his arsenal.If Whitebeard cannot beat someone with GGnM power then he's not beating him with something else from his arsenal.If Zoro can not beat character X when he had swords then he's not beating him with something else from his arsenal. So on...

When you fight with your art of expertise, your attacks are at their strongest,your reactions will be at their apex,your striking rate would at it's best,your raw skill would be at it's best. Therefore if your best possible option fails so will all of your other skills which are secondary and are also inferior to your primary fighting style. If a swordsman can intercept a sword strike of match 10 speed then should be able to do the same a kick or punch of match 20 speed. If he can completely block a sword strike strong enough to destroy a mountain then he can do the same with a kick/punch of that of level.If he can make your reflexes and reactions useless when you're fighting with your most comfortable form then he's doing the same even if you fight using some other method. It is as simple that.

So no manga scan where Oda classifies Shanks a swordsman?

No manga scan where Shanks says it himself?

Okay.


How is Shanks' sword his "BEST POSSIBLE OPTION" when we as "rational readers" have never seen him go all out?? Not once have we seen Shanks fight to his limits.

If Shanks grabs his sword first in every skirmish we've seen him in so far, that's like seeing Post time skip Luffy use gear 2nd first in a fight. Does Luffy not have a Gear 3rd to go to later on in the fight if needed? Did he not save his Gear 4th for the end of a difficult battle?
Or Zoro using one sword first, but having two more..
Or Doflamingo not using Awakening until the end..
Etc.. Etc.. the list goes on..

Do you think Shanks using his sword first is him using his strongest option first?

Be real..

 

[ZoroXTashigi]

Why? This is under the assumption that people can't fight each other more than once, which isn't anywhere close to true. Garp fought with Roger countless times, same with Roger and Whitebeard. Kaido and Moriah were apparently rivals, so they probably fought many times. Mihawk losing to Shanks or vice versa isn't gonna prevent them from fighting again.

Fighting to caught the enemy or fighting to trample someone position. If Mihawk already proved to be stronger than Shanks... what his reason to be fought? Seriously ...lol

 

[LBeezy]

Don't have the Time to add links to this post So I'm counting on your knowlegde and understanding of the manga. What I got from this thread So far is:
1) Swordsman=> main fighting style revolves around a sword or the use of one.
2) Shanks has used his sword in all the major clashes he has had in the manga. Hence Shanks is a Swordsman.
3) Dracule Hawk-Eyes Mihawk is the World Strongest Swordsman.
4) Mihawk > Shanks.

For some of you it is a fact with no room for discussion.

Now some food for thought:
1) A bisento -Google it and Google sword too by the way- is basically described as a long sword or a sword with a particularly long hilt.
2) Save one or two WhiteBeard has used his bisento for all his major clashes. Hence WhiteBeard is a Swordsman
3) So if we were to go with the arguments and Logic used in this thread So far. We should have WhiteBeard > Mihawk

Well Mihawk himself disagrees. As he places WhiteBeard leagues above him. Thus the WSS=automatic Win against Swordsman goes down.
Then Mihawk Held the title WSS while WhiteBeard had the WSM. Both were alive and active in the same era. And again Mihawk himself admitted inferiority to WhiteBeard. So maybe, just maybe his title has to do with Swordsmanship, what he can with a sword and not that he is the Strongest person wielding a sword.

Now Come at me. And please don't use the "That's because of WhiteBeard's crew argument".

This is food for thought that really should open up the eyes of some people in this thread.

his title has to do with Swordsmanship, what he can with a sword and not that he is the Strongest person wielding a sword.

You and I, plus other members have said this. And this is what the ignorant members are trying to deny.

It's simple to comprehend for us.. but not for them. :bdpf: