[Discussion] Magellan Overrated

[Vandenre1ch]

Never in my history of OP did I ever think I'd find someone who is probably more overrated than Zoro. People honestly Magellan is yonko commander level & the amount of double standard & selective reasoning to justify this boggles the mind. We've seen yonko commanders make Post-TS G2/G3 Luffy look like a pest & once again, Magellan had a serious fight with preskip Luffy. Not to mention haki that would protect you from Magellan's poison as it can even stop magma.

-There is no way a yonko commander would have a serious fight against preskip Luffy
-There is no way a yonko commander would need so much effort to pin own preskip BASE Luffy
-There is no way a yonko commander would be damaged by preskip in any way
-There is no way a yonko commander can be held off by even preskip Base Luffy

Magellan has a natural advantage over CQC fighters and has an even bigger advantage thanks to the enclosed spaces of IP. The space is so limited that Luffy had to latch onto other platforms to avoid the Hydra. With Mr3 wax, Base Luffy could hold off Magellan. With wax, G3 could hold off Venom Demon! The main reason Magellan is so overrated is because of Iva, Shiryu & BB.

Against BB, he was careless. BB is so careless that even preskip Luffy could hit him clean. BB's carelessness was pointed out by Shiryu & WB. BB didn't even know what Magellan looked like let alone what his powers were.

Against Iva, as I said earlier, Magellan has all the advantages. Iva chose to match hydra head on with a gatling punch with no signs of haki(haki is weird as hell pre-ts. Even WB & Sengoku didn't use haki for some reason. Even Sai didn't use haki against Ideo). Even Roger, WB or Garp would've died if they did what Iva did.

Against Shiryu, it was they were on par with each other. Because of this, people claim pre-skip Shiryu was already yonko commander level and use it as portrayal. By that logic, I can say Burgess>Shiryu as he is the 1st ship captain & Shiryu #2. Burgess went from being a pest to Ace to bruising Sabo in a med diff fight. That is a huge strength increase and Shiryu can easily have growth during the timeskip.

All n' all, there is no way Magellan is yonko commander level(Luffy needs G4???). Guys like Smoker & Vergo can beat him judging from in IP performance.

Luffy vs Magellan

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Iva vs Magellan

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[Bimbonium]

Tbh, ever since Haki became a thing, judging pre-skip characters became difficult.

Remove haki from Yonko commanders and they'll be on Magellan's level. While the converse isn't true (giving Magellan haki wouldn't change much) at least as I see it. but that shows that characters like Magellan would have been waaaay stronger were they introduced post-skip.
(since they'd incorporate haki into their fighting style and whatnot)
I feel that's what affects grading Magellan's strength.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Tbh, ever since Haki became a thing, judging pre-skip characters became difficult.

Remove haki from Yonko commanders and they'll be on Magellan's level. While the converse isn't true (giving Magellan haki wouldn't change much) at least as I see it. but that shows that characters like Magellan would have been waaaay stronger were they introduced post-skip.
(since they'd incorporate haki into their fighting style and whatnot)
I feel that's what affects grading Magellan's strength.

Without haki, yonko commanders would still annihilate Post-TS Luffy. Even Cracker's non haki soldiers would withstand G4 Gatling & march forward. Doflamingo could still fight Post-TS Luffy minus G4. Magellan hasn't shown the slightest hint of haki(like Jinbe for some reason) and you say that for A LOT of characters that they would be way stronger if introduced with Post-TS standards like Lucci or Moirah for example.

 

[Bogard]

Already explained to you how strength scaling works

> A low performance downplays a character, but the moment he gets a higher performance, the characters gets a higher rate and low feat becomes known as the outlier.

In Magellan's case then, you simply can't just look at his low because Luffy punched him a bit preskip due to being off-guard(in which case, why don't you apply same logic to someone like Garp who was covered in blood after taking preskip Luffy's punches? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy dodging Mihawk's attacks? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy tanking Buddha Sengoku's attacks?) when he has higher feats like low-mid diffing Ivankov who is portrayed as top3 in the Revolutionary army

Judging by Ivankov's position, he simply can't be deemed as not having haki. He also has ranged attacks(his winks attacks) that Magellan managed to react to and block(and thus adjusting his reaction speed to this level of fighter, instead of always low-balling him to preskip Luffy like you like to do).

And even when counting that low ball you're trying to do by excusing the fact that a normally armament user decided to attack close, the attack Ivankov used was a secret technique, so if you were to scale Magellan's durability to be low enough to be hurt by preskip Luffy's punches that couldn't even scrath a pacifista, then he should have outright being one shotted by high end attacks of the top3 of a revolutionary army. The fact that he wasn't then, further prove that his down against preskip Luffy was an outlier and that his real stats(including endurance) are much higher than that

That's feat wise

Now portrayal-wise, there is also the fact that unlike in Blackbeard's case, Ivankov actually well knew how strong Magellan was(he is the one who gave the complete background behind his and Shiryu's powers), he is the one who chosed the location they'd fight in, he was completely prepared to stop him preventing for attacking his friends and still completely failed at the job ending up low-mid diffed. His own subordinate was praying for his safety even before knowing the result. The impel down prisoners were afraid of him and we're talking about a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world and that is including Jinbei's group who was preferring avoiding any kind of fight with him

And once again, there is no way in hell the government would be stupid enough to send a guy on preskip Luffy's range to guard a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world. It's just common sense

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Already explained to you how strength scaling works

> A low performance downplays a character, but the moment he gets a higher performance, the characters gets a higher rate and low feat becomes known as the outlier.

In Magellan's case then, you simply can't just look at his low because Luffy punched him a bit preskip due to being off-guard(in which case, why don't you apply same logic to someone like Garp who was covered in blood after taking preskip Luffy's punches? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy dodging Mihawk's attacks? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy tanking Buddha Sengoku's attacks?) when he has higher feats like low-mid diffing Ivankov who is portrayed as top3 in the Revolutionary army

Judging by Ivankov's position, he simply can't be deemed as not having haki. He also has ranged attacks(his winks attacks) that Magellan managed to react to and block(and thus adjusting his reaction speed to this level of fighter, instead of always low-balling him to preskip Luffy like you like to do).

And even when counting that low ball you're trying to do by excusing the fact that a normally armament user decided to attack close, the attack Ivankov used was a secret technique, so if you were to scale Magellan's durability to be low enough to be hurt by preskip Luffy's punches that couldn't even scrath a pacifista, then he should have outright being one shotted by high end attacks of the top3 of a revolutionary army. The fact that he wasn't then, further prove that his down against preskip Luffy was an outlier and that his real stats(including endurance) are much higher than that

That's feat wise

Now portrayal-wise, there is also the fact that unlike in Blackbeard's case, Ivankov actually well knew how strong Magellan was(he is the one who gave the complete background behind his and Shiryu's powers), he is the one who chosed the location they'd fight in, he was completely prepared to stop him preventing for attacking his friends and still completely failed at the job ending up low-mid diffed. His own subordinate was praying for his safety even before knowing the result. The impel down prisoners were afraid of him and we're talking about a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world and that is including Jinbei's group who was preferring avoiding any kind of fight with him

And once again, there is no way in hell the government would be stupid enough to send a guy on preskip Luffy's range to guard a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world. It's just common sense

And I already explained to you that you can't ignore someone's legitimate feats because of a technicality that gave him an advantage. He was dead serious fighting Luffy and Luffy could put a fight & bruise Magellan. Against Iva, he decided to face the hydra head on without haki. That is a technicality no matter how you look at it. I gave numerous examples of haki ambiguity & people not using it despite having it because otherwise, its another big inconsistency.

In IP, Magellan is king. Dodging Magellan is off the upmost importance & you can hardly do that in IP. Also given the fact all these insane criminal are restrained & DF users cant use their powers, Magellan is perfect for the job. Even Jinbe didn't want to fight Magellan and thats only because of the threat of his ability plus the environment. Its like saying snowmen for weak for running away from a guy with a flamethrower.

You don't give superior portrayals via technicalities or having an advantage over the opponent.

 

[Bimbonium]

Without haki, yonko commanders would still annihilate Post-TS Luffy. Even Cracker's non haki soldiers would withstand G4 Gatling & march forward. Doflamingo could still fight Post-TS Luffy minus G4. Magellan hasn't shown the slightest hint of haki(like Jinbe for some reason) and you say that for A LOT of characters that they would be way stronger if introduced with Post-TS standards like Lucci or Moirah for example.

I don't see how Cracker's biscuits would be able to withstand G4 without haki, when they couldn't with haki, but that's beside the point.
I see Magellan giving cqc characters like Jack more than a run for their money if haki wasn't involved, heck even cracker would have a had time dealing with venom demon without haki.
My point is Magellan + haki might not be strong, but he's on the same level with Top tiers if the series stayed haki-less (especially CoA).
Yeah, Lucci would have been stronger with Haki, he probably doesn't have many new techniques, he just got haki and he's now Cp0 (that's a relevant level in the new world).

In my post I said I don't know how much Magellan would benefit from haki, same thing Moria, but if Oda wrote him with haki in mind (in the era where every rank and file member of important crews seem to be able use haki), he'll have it incorporated into his fighting styles and he'd definitely be stronger, like much stronger.
Btw, I'm not saying he (Magellan) is yonko commander level, I'm saying the fanbase that "overrate" him have solid points.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

I don't see how Cracker's biscuits would be able to withstand G4 without haki, when they couldn't with haki, but that's beside the point.
I see Magellan giving cqc characters like Jack more than a run for their money if haki wasn't involved, heck even cracker would have a had time dealing with venom demon without haki.
My point is Magellan + haki might not be strong, but he's on the same level with Top tiers if the series stayed haki-less (especially CoA).
Yeah, Lucci would have been stronger with Haki, he probably doesn't have many new techniques, he just got haki and he's now Cp0 (that's a relevant level in the new world).

In my post I said I don't know how much Magellan would benefit from haki, same thing Moria, but if Oda wrote him with haki in mind (in the era where every rank and file member of important crews seem to be able use haki), he'll have it incorporated into his fighting styles and he'd definitely be stronger, like much stronger.
Btw, I'm not saying he (Magellan) is yonko commander level, I'm saying the fanbase that "overrate" him have solid points.

The thing is that the people that overrate Magellan doesn't have solid points. It creates a lot of inconsistencies thinking Magellan is that strong. Majority of them don't know how haki works & assume Magellan has it(he doesn't as there isn't the slightest hint) cause if he has haki as well, he can still poison you.

Magellan can one shot anyone if he hits you once with poison regardless of who they are(unless you have anti poison ability). That is the main reason people overrate him. They ignore details like his poison being so slow that even preskip Base Luffy could dodge. They can still one shot Magellan but they'd get poisoned to death without haki. Since everyone is rocking haki post-TS & not Magellan, that ain't a problem. So without haki, people can easily stalemate Magellan until they go kamikaze and take them both out.

In the Cracker fight, we directly saw Cracker's line of biscuit soldiers blocking G4 organ(gatling) and marched forward despite the barrage, giving Cracker a chance to attack without haki & Luffy had to dodge.

 

[Lyke]

Already explained to you how strength scaling works

> A low performance downplays a character, but the moment he gets a higher performance, the characters gets a higher rate and low feat becomes known as the outlier.

In Magellan's case then, you simply can't just look at his low because Luffy punched him a bit preskip due to being off-guard(in which case, why don't you apply same logic to someone like Garp who was covered in blood after taking preskip Luffy's punches? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy dodging Mihawk's attacks? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy tanking Buddha Sengoku's attacks?) when he has higher feats like low-mid diffing Ivankov who is portrayed as top3 in the Revolutionary army

Judging by Ivankov's position, he simply can't be deemed as not having haki. He also has ranged attacks(his winks attacks) that Magellan managed to react to and block(and thus adjusting his reaction speed to this level of fighter, instead of always low-balling him to preskip Luffy like you like to do).

And even when counting that low ball you're trying to do by excusing the fact that a normally armament user decided to attack close, the attack Ivankov used was a secret technique, so if you were to scale Magellan's durability to be low enough to be hurt by preskip Luffy's punches that couldn't even scrath a pacifista, then he should have outright being one shotted by high end attacks of the top3 of a revolutionary army. The fact that he wasn't then, further prove that his down against preskip Luffy was an outlier and that his real stats(including endurance) are much higher than that

That's feat wise

Now portrayal-wise, there is also the fact that unlike in Blackbeard's case, Ivankov actually well knew how strong Magellan was(he is the one who gave the complete background behind his and Shiryu's powers), he is the one who chosed the location they'd fight in, he was completely prepared to stop him preventing for attacking his friends and still completely failed at the job ending up low-mid diffed. His own subordinate was praying for his safety even before knowing the result. The impel down prisoners were afraid of him and we're talking about a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world and that is including Jinbei's group who was preferring avoiding any kind of fight with him

And once again, there is no way in hell the government would be stupid enough to send a guy on preskip Luffy's range to guard a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world. It's just common sense

Stabile Sache

 

[Bimbonium]

The thing is that the people that overrate Magellan doesn't have solid points. It creates a lot of inconsistencies thinking Magellan is that strong. Majority of them don't know how haki works & assume Magellan has it(he doesn't as there isn't the slightest hint) cause if he has haki as well, he can still poison you.

Magellan can one shot anyone if he hits you once with poison regardless of who they are(unless you have anti poison ability). That is the main reason people overrate him. They ignore details like his poison being so slow that even preskip Base Luffy could dodge. They can still one shot Magellan but they'd get poisoned to death without haki. Since everyone is rocking haki post-TS & not Magellan, that ain't a problem. So without haki, people can easily stalemate Magellan until they go kamikaze and take them both out.

In the Cracker fight, we directly saw Cracker's line of biscuit soldiers blocking G4 organ(gatling) and marched forward despite the barrage, giving Cracker a chance to attack without haki & Luffy had to dodge.

I get your point, as being based on the facts we've seen.

But then it's one piece, portrayal plays a major role, take crocodile's MF showing for instance, that was much better than his alabaster showing, and he was in prison all through.

The inconsistencies came from Oda and not the fanbase. I'd say pre-skip characters should just stay in the pre-skip world, cos Ace had CoC, didn't use it for one reason or another, or even worse Ace doesn't seem to have CoA or everyone below Diamond Jozu (except Vista) didn't have or use haki at MF (even the other division commanders).

Yes, Feat wise Magellan might not be up there, but considering how every named character was handled at IP/MF, Magellan and indeed a host of characters deserve the same type of plot protection WB gets.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

I get your point, as being based on the facts we've seen.

But then it's one piece, portrayal plays a major role, take crocodile's MF showing for instance, that was much better than his alabaster showing, and he was in prison all through.

The inconsistencies came from Oda and not the fanbase. I'd say pre-skip characters should just stay in the pre-skip world, cos Ace had CoC, didn't use it for one reason or another, or even worse Ace doesn't seem to have CoA or everyone below Diamond Jozu (except Vista) didn't have or use haki at MF (even the other division commanders).

Yes, Feat wise Magellan might not be up there, but considering how every named character was handled at IP/MF, Magellan and indeed a host of characters deserve the same type of plot protection WB gets.

I also get your point but doesn't it still count as a technicality? Like saying a guy with a flamethrower is strong via portrayal because he chased away snowmen? Iva for example has many ranged attacks but for some reason didn't use them. He instead went for a gatling attack with no sign of haki which of course makes it obvious that he'd lose that exchange. Its technical but does that count as superior portrayal? As even Roger would die in that exact same situation if he didn't use haki & faced poison head on? Even Jinbe didn't use haki when he fought Luffy on FI.

Even after fighting Iva, Luffy could still hold Magellan off after getting wax gauntlets(that negated the poison). In response to this, Magellan went Venom Demon. So if Luffy had haki, he would've able to hold off Magellan alone. Not win, just stall which doesn't abode well for Magellan.

 

[Lady Coffee]

Nice theory Magellan is really powerful i agree to that he was able to hold blackbeard so it is interesting stuff you came out

 

[ToshiZO]

Already explained to you how strength scaling works

> A low performance downplays a character, but the moment he gets a higher performance, the characters gets a higher rate and low feat becomes known as the outlier.

In Magellan's case then, you simply can't just look at his low because Luffy punched him a bit preskip due to being off-guard(in which case, why don't you apply same logic to someone like Garp who was covered in blood after taking preskip Luffy's punches? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy dodging Mihawk's attacks? Why not apply it to preskip Luffy tanking Buddha Sengoku's attacks?) when he has higher feats like low-mid diffing Ivankov who is portrayed as top3 in the Revolutionary army

Judging by Ivankov's position, he simply can't be deemed as not having haki. He also has ranged attacks(his winks attacks) that Magellan managed to react to and block(and thus adjusting his reaction speed to this level of fighter, instead of always low-balling him to preskip Luffy like you like to do).

And even when counting that low ball you're trying to do by excusing the fact that a normally armament user decided to attack close, the attack Ivankov used was a secret technique, so if you were to scale Magellan's durability to be low enough to be hurt by preskip Luffy's punches that couldn't even scrath a pacifista, then he should have outright being one shotted by high end attacks of the top3 of a revolutionary army. The fact that he wasn't then, further prove that his down against preskip Luffy was an outlier and that his real stats(including endurance) are much higher than that

That's feat wise

Now portrayal-wise, there is also the fact that unlike in Blackbeard's case, Ivankov actually well knew how strong Magellan was(he is the one who gave the complete background behind his and Shiryu's powers), he is the one who chosed the location they'd fight in, he was completely prepared to stop him preventing for attacking his friends and still completely failed at the job ending up low-mid diffed. His own subordinate was praying for his safety even before knowing the result. The impel down prisoners were afraid of him and we're talking about a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world and that is including Jinbei's group who was preferring avoiding any kind of fight with him

And once again, there is no way in hell the government would be stupid enough to send a guy on preskip Luffy's range to guard a prison holding the most infamous pirates in the world. It's just common sense

/thread

There was no rebuttal for any of these points.

Adding to his portrayal he had Jimbei, Crocodile, Ivankov, Daz, Luffy combined trying to run from him rather than just gang up and take him out.

Shiryu was shutting off surveillance cameras just to avoid meeting him, Shiryu is most likely Blackbeard's strongest underling, "not yonkou commander level" he says.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

/thread

There was no rebuttal for any of these points.

Adding to his portrayal he had Jimbei, Crocodile, Ivankov, Daz, Luffy combined trying to run from him rather than just gang up and take him out.

Shiryu was shutting off surveillance cameras just to avoid meeting him, Shiryu is most likely Blackbeard's strongest underling, "not yonkou commander level" he says.

There is actually a lot and a direct counter to rest of what you said is the fact that a bunch of haki-less CQC fighters in a enclosed space was running from a guy who'd kill them with one touch. In Impel Down, Magellan is king. Outside of IP, Magellan's weaknesses can be more easily exploited.

Everything you said is based on a technicality.

 

[Itachi Minato]

Magellan could potentially one shot most of the op verse but pre skip Luffy was able to fight him evenly with the wax. I have to say I think Oda did it that way for plot. If Magellan was introduced now I'm sure he would be stronger. In these versus threads people ignore that the writer is writing a story. He doesn't expect people to be comparing different characters power. I wouldn't say Magellan is yonko commander level but he's at least vice admiral. Doesn't really matter though because he's served his purpose

 

[Vandenre1ch]

Magellan could potentially one shot most of the op verse but pre skip Luffy was able to fight him evenly with the wax. I have to say I think Oda did it that way for plot. If Magellan was introduced now I'm sure he would be stronger.

That can be said for every character revealed pre-TS. To make them the threat they were pre-TS, they have to be strong by Post-TS standards. However, if those characters were tossed in Post-TS, they'd get destroyed like pre-TS Lucci, Arlong, Krieg etc..

In these versus threads people ignore that the writer is writing a story. He doesn't expect people to be comparing different characters power. I wouldn't say Magellan is yonko commander level but he's at least vice admiral. Doesn't really matter though because he's served his purpose

This actually isn't true. It would be completely naive & dumb for an author to make characters in a series with a lot of action and not expect his audience to compare characters. Its a given and not very smart for an author to think otherwise. Oda even talked about it before. He evens said that he hates it when a person hates on his characters just for being "weak" so "I'll just have to bring them back stronger!!!" and quote.

 

[chopstickchakra]

I also get your point but doesn't it still count as a technicality? Like saying a guy with a flamethrower is strong via portrayal because he chased away snowmen? Iva for example has many ranged attacks but for some reason didn't use them. He instead went for a gatling attack with no sign of haki which of course makes it obvious that he'd lose that exchange. Its technical but does that count as superior portrayal? As even Roger would die in that exact same situation if he didn't use haki & faced poison head on? Even Jinbe didn't use haki when he fought Luffy on FI.

Even after fighting Iva, Luffy could still hold Magellan off after getting wax gauntlets(that negated the poison). In response to this, Magellan went Venom Demon. So if Luffy had haki, he would've able to hold off Magellan alone. Not win, just stall which doesn't abode well for Magellan.

To be fair you're saying add haki like it just automatically grants this permanent shield to Magellans poison and we don't know that since we've never seen it happen. For all we know his poison could slowly seep through haki as a fight goes on. The wax is a physical solid object whereas Haki is a manifestation of will if it wains in battle then the poison could theoretically get through still.

As for Magellan's haki it'd make little sense for the Warden responsible for preventing any prison breaks of the most notorious people not to have haki in case an attempt is made. If a prisoner escaped and was a logia Magellan would have little to no effect in trying to stop them I don't think the Marines would be that foolish to put somebody without a skill that all VA's have in charge of keeping ID secure.

 

[Punk Hazard]

/thread

There was no rebuttal for any of these points.

Adding to his portrayal he had Jimbei, Crocodile, Ivankov, Daz, Luffy combined trying to run from him rather than just gang up and take him out.

Shiryu was shutting off surveillance cameras just to avoid meeting him, Shiryu is most likely Blackbeard's strongest underling, "not yonkou commander level" he says.

What rhymes with triggy sack!

 

[Vandenre1ch]

To be fair you're saying add haki like it just automatically grants this permanent shield to Magellans poison and we don't know that since we've never seen it happen. For all we know his poison could slowly seep through haki as a fight goes on. The wax is a physical solid object whereas Haki is a manifestation of will if it wains in battle then the poison could theoretically get through still.

As for Magellan's haki it'd make little sense for the Warden responsible for preventing any prison breaks of the most notorious people not to have haki in case an attempt is made. If a prisoner escaped and was a logia Magellan would have little to no effect in trying to stop them I don't think the Marines would be that foolish to put somebody without a skill that all VA's have in charge of keeping ID secure.

Haki could completely stop magma. If it can stop magma, it can stop poison.Haki was directly said to be the only effective countermeasure against devil fruit users.

Haki isn't necessary for IP. Hannybal is now the Warden & he got destroyed by preskip Luffy. There is also the fact that guys like Shiki can be prisoners. Unless Magellan is yonko level, wouldn't it still be dumb for the WG to make Magellan warden? A prisoner would have to escape their cell, then FIND A KEY to their handcuffs, reclaim what weapons they require and then escape. Shiki is an exception as he cut off his legs.

 

[chopstickchakra]

Haki could completely stop magma. If it can stop magma, it can stop poison.Haki was directly said to be the only effective countermeasure against devil fruit users.

Haki isn't necessary for IP. Hannybal is now the Warden & he got destroyed by preskip Luffy. There is also the fact that guys like Shiki can be prisoners. Unless Magellan is yonko level, wouldn't it still be dumb for the WG to make Magellan warden? A prisoner would have to escape their cell, then FIND A KEY to their handcuffs, reclaim what weapons they require and then escape. Shiki is an exception as he cut off his legs.

So because we saw how it went with one element from one opponent we should assume it works that way everytime always? Anyway that's not entirely true either because there's seastone so how could haki have been directly said to be the only effective countermeasure against DF users? We even saw Doffy's strings which were cutting through just about everything had no effect on seastone buildings.

Whether it's necessary for ID(not sure what this IP is, is that Impeldown Prison? It's just Impel Down ID isn't it?) is our opinion since it's never been stated and to me it still seems odd a warden for their main prison wouldn't also have a skill that all VA's are required to learn.

 

[LBeezy]

Who do yall think would win in a 1v1?

Magellan or Pica???