[Discussion] Madara does not have Infinite Chakra
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Infinite: The state or quality of being infinite.
Synonyms:Infinitude, immensity
Unlimited: Not limited or restricted in terms of number, quantity, or extent.
Synonyms: Boundless, Unbound, limitless, INFINITY
Definition of Synonym is... A word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language.
If you go with unlimited chakra like you said is what he has, it's even more devastating then just infinite. It's not bound so he can use as much as he wants whenever he wants while using it for as long as he wants.
Well, when you ACTUALLY THINK about it, infinity and unlimited are two of the EXACT same things. Happy?
Unlimited chakra doesn't say how powerful it is. The Juubi's chakra is by far more powerful then his. He still needs that to cast the ultimate genjutsu. Doesn't require unlimited chakra, it requires chakra powerful enough to cast.
The Mizukage didn't make a shadow clone or anything. He actually created a second real living being in his image, as in, have it live somewhere else, take damage, even reproduce. He needed to use half of his chakra, half of his life force to sustain this beings life. He wasn't weakened for using a jutsu like Madara uses jutsus, he was weakened for creating a new human being.
Madara said he has unlimited chakra. Like I said before, unlimited means to have no boundaries. That means, that pipe is more like Naruto and the Kyuubi. Take away that pipe though and give Madara the entire ocean, that is unlimited, and that is what Madara claims to have.
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meh ...i disagree.
my understandings of chakra:
chakra seems to be some kind of energy every LIVING body produces and uses its power to enhance itselfs and even keeps them alive.
If a shonobi would try to use more chakra than his body is able to produce he would damage himself and the jutsu would fail.
As for and edo: ever since they are dead, they dont realy care how much chakra they are pulling out of their bodies, ever since they just regenerate to their original state if they are damaged.
my understandings of chakra:
chakra seems to be some kind of energy every LIVING body produces and uses its power to enhance itselfs and even keeps them alive.
If a shonobi would try to use more chakra than his body is able to produce he would damage himself and the jutsu would fail.
As for and edo: ever since they are dead, they dont realy care how much chakra they are pulling out of their bodies, ever since they just regenerate to their original state if they are damaged.
The key point you and everyone else are hitting on is that whether you say Madara has infinite or unlimited chakra is irrelevant, one can be substituted for the other without consequence in a functional perspective, ignoring the mechanisms; thus, there is not necessarily any point in distinguishing two things that can have the same meaning in the proper context. However, infinite chakra and unlimited chakra are not the same as described below. Namely you can achieve unlimited chakra with finite chakra. Naturally, you can obtain unlimited chakra with infinite chakra. All infinite chakra allows is for one to put as much chakra into a jutsu as they desire without restraint. This is a mathematical argument. I think for the purposes of the thread, equivalence of the two terms is fine, as what's important is how much chakra is available to the user at any given time...
naruto kyuubi
This is long, so I'm putting it into spoilers:
I somewhat get what you're trying to say (I'm still not sure if you disagree/agree with the OP or are simply trying to reword/reframe his idea to make it better understood), and the analogy has some relevance, but the logic underlying it is flawed, as your argument is parameter intra-dependent (i.e. it depends on parameters that must co-vary properly the argument to hold.), which weakens it substantially. This leads not so much to generalization as it does to the converse, freedom of the parameters, which is bad. The next part was written before this, so I apologize for the lack on continuity. Basically, I just want to clean this up, expand on it, fix whatever is broken, and finally clear it up hopefully.
I don't see the validity of this argument as it's arbitrary, depending entirely on the undefined rate of transfer through this "pipe, tube, etc." of yours, which if sufficient would in fact drain the respective Ocean, as by your definition it is not infinite.. Thus, "nearly infinite" and "infinite" are two totally different concepts, whereas "unlimited" and "infinite" can be used interchangeably if in the right context, such as this thread. The people in this thread are not mathematicians (I exempt myself).
As you've written it, you can also have a puddle with a straw connected to it that drains out the water so slowly that there is always water remaining until it reaches its finite limit. This length of time can be set with the proper parameters to match the ocean and the pipe, giving the appearance of unlimited water in each case, albeit with different transfer rates. The different rates make this arbitrary from a mathematics and logic-based perspective. Now, I showed the two extremes (high supply, high rate = low supply, low rate), and given that they are an effective argument, that means that what I stated for the in betweens holds true in principle.
Finally, to keep things simple, I never incorporated the third main component (1. depletion, 2. source size and 3. regeneration) Namely, you could have an ocean (i.e. large source size) that drains faster than it's refilled (This is one of the most common questions in 1st/2nd semester Calculus, and described by simple differential equations), which leads to the exhaustion of chakra. Whereas if the refill rate matches the drainage rate, the actual amount (i.e. 2. source size) of chakra that one has becomes irrelevant to a large extent because it never changes. It is only relevant in limitations for performing chakra intensive jutsu such as summoning jutsu, Chibaku Tensei, Bansho Tenin of meteors, ..., etc. Note that I ignore the case of the regeneration rate > depletion rate, as while it mathematically possible and would lead to an overflow of chakra/water, it's not relevant here.
Thus, there are infinite ways to get unlimited chakra without the chakra amount itself being infinite using our terms depletion, source size, and regeneration. This is simple mathematics (note: I consider simple to be early college late high school, depends on if you took college courses early, lol) and can be explained using simple ordinary differential equations.
Now, perhaps the manga necessitates our parameters for us, such that ET must have a large chakra pool (e.g. ocean) and a high draining rate, but that is slower than the rate at which his chakra is replenished (see your ocean/pipe analogy above). This situation leaves Madara with unlimited finite chakra, but not infinite chakra in discrete time. However, for basic use of the English language, and not being mathematically rigorous, this is for all intensive purpose infinite chakra, allowing the terms to be used interchangeably despite the fact that they are indeed distinct technically.
It was a nice analogy attempt, but inherently flawed in its design given the lack of constraints/freedom of parameters (co-varying) on which it was dependent (which is OK on these forums). Further it conjures up the proper concept. There are an infinite number of which that lead to the appearance of infinite water/chakra, which leads to the freedom of parameters problem. Another thing is, infinity is not a number itself, just a heads up to people out there that don't know this. It's a concept. If this was a math class or computational science one, I would care about the distinction between unlimited and infinite chakra. However, that's not what this thread is about; thus, I feel that posters have a good enough understanding, and in this context can equate the two terms ("infinite" and "unlimited") based on chakra availability when a jutsu must be cast.
I don't see the validity of this argument as it's arbitrary, depending entirely on the undefined rate of transfer through this "pipe, tube, etc." of yours, which if sufficient would in fact drain the respective Ocean, as by your definition it is not infinite.. Thus, "nearly infinite" and "infinite" are two totally different concepts, whereas "unlimited" and "infinite" can be used interchangeably if in the right context, such as this thread. The people in this thread are not mathematicians (I exempt myself).
As you've written it, you can also have a puddle with a straw connected to it that drains out the water so slowly that there is always water remaining until it reaches its finite limit. This length of time can be set with the proper parameters to match the ocean and the pipe, giving the appearance of unlimited water in each case, albeit with different transfer rates. The different rates make this arbitrary from a mathematics and logic-based perspective. Now, I showed the two extremes (high supply, high rate = low supply, low rate), and given that they are an effective argument, that means that what I stated for the in betweens holds true in principle.
Finally, to keep things simple, I never incorporated the third main component (1. depletion, 2. source size and 3. regeneration) Namely, you could have an ocean (i.e. large source size) that drains faster than it's refilled (This is one of the most common questions in 1st/2nd semester Calculus, and described by simple differential equations), which leads to the exhaustion of chakra. Whereas if the refill rate matches the drainage rate, the actual amount (i.e. 2. source size) of chakra that one has becomes irrelevant to a large extent because it never changes. It is only relevant in limitations for performing chakra intensive jutsu such as summoning jutsu, Chibaku Tensei, Bansho Tenin of meteors, ..., etc. Note that I ignore the case of the regeneration rate > depletion rate, as while it mathematically possible and would lead to an overflow of chakra/water, it's not relevant here.
Thus, there are infinite ways to get unlimited chakra without the chakra amount itself being infinite using our terms depletion, source size, and regeneration. This is simple mathematics (note: I consider simple to be early college late high school, depends on if you took college courses early, lol) and can be explained using simple ordinary differential equations.
Now, perhaps the manga necessitates our parameters for us, such that ET must have a large chakra pool (e.g. ocean) and a high draining rate, but that is slower than the rate at which his chakra is replenished (see your ocean/pipe analogy above). This situation leaves Madara with unlimited finite chakra, but not infinite chakra in discrete time. However, for basic use of the English language, and not being mathematically rigorous, this is for all intensive purpose infinite chakra, allowing the terms to be used interchangeably despite the fact that they are indeed distinct technically.
It was a nice analogy attempt, but inherently flawed in its design given the lack of constraints/freedom of parameters (co-varying) on which it was dependent (which is OK on these forums). Further it conjures up the proper concept. There are an infinite number of which that lead to the appearance of infinite water/chakra, which leads to the freedom of parameters problem. Another thing is, infinity is not a number itself, just a heads up to people out there that don't know this. It's a concept. If this was a math class or computational science one, I would care about the distinction between unlimited and infinite chakra. However, that's not what this thread is about; thus, I feel that posters have a good enough understanding, and in this context can equate the two terms ("infinite" and "unlimited") based on chakra availability when a jutsu must be cast.
Nice quantitative thinking btw. +rep
Peace
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I can't bare to see how some people, that can't even understand what the creator of this thread is trying to explain, jump to conclusions and start calling other dumb, when they should take a look at themselves first.
First i completely agree, and some people tried to explain what you were saying with examples and in simpler ways but people are either to lazy to read, or simply can't understand.
Madara has the same amount of chakra at all times, but he has a certain amount of it, his max pool of chakra (which is impressive, taking into account that he also has Hashirama's cells). Meaning that even though he never runs out of chakra, he can't use more that his body can withhold at once.
For example let's say a jutsu requires 1000 chakra (tobi's Tsukuyomi cast on the moon for example) but Madara has a infinite chakra pool of 600, this means that he is incapable of using that jutsu because even though his chakra regenerates instantly it will never go past that 600 limit, the limit to the chakra that his body can hold at one moment.
Therefore the creator of this thread is trying to explain that Madara doesn't have an infinite chakra pool (that he has more chakra then Kurama for example) but rather has an above average chakra pool that never ends (unlimited).
First i completely agree, and some people tried to explain what you were saying with examples and in simpler ways but people are either to lazy to read, or simply can't understand.
Madara has the same amount of chakra at all times, but he has a certain amount of it, his max pool of chakra (which is impressive, taking into account that he also has Hashirama's cells). Meaning that even though he never runs out of chakra, he can't use more that his body can withhold at once.
For example let's say a jutsu requires 1000 chakra (tobi's Tsukuyomi cast on the moon for example) but Madara has a infinite chakra pool of 600, this means that he is incapable of using that jutsu because even though his chakra regenerates instantly it will never go past that 600 limit, the limit to the chakra that his body can hold at one moment.
Therefore the creator of this thread is trying to explain that Madara doesn't have an infinite chakra pool (that he has more chakra then Kurama for example) but rather has an above average chakra pool that never ends (unlimited).
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Mark Uzumaki
Active member
GofOfNothing
Active member
Who cares?
I mean who gives a f*ck if its "unlimited" or "infinite"...he wont run out of chakra and thats the thing.
I mean who gives a f*ck if its "unlimited" or "infinite"...he wont run out of chakra and thats the thing.
MilwaukeegHost
Active member
This.
Recovery is sped up when the Edo "dies" and their body regenerates. Muu was tired because he used alot of chakra but as we can see he eventually got it back enough to summon Madara.
-gHost Senju, K.U.S.H. Sage
Can't you guys read, madara said edo tensei gives you regenaration and unlimited chakra. However madara hate the edo tensei jutsu and release it on him meaning he is alive again and not an edo anymore and his power is not unlimited but limited due to him being release of edo by himself and the regenaration is no more unless he has the first hokage healing ability.
