Madara and Hashirama were at the same level, although not equal

KCMNaruto

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Hello guys I am a little bored so I would like to fill manga's holes in Madara vs Hashirama battle with my own scripted battle connecting to final canon stuff.

First, Madara was never surprised when Hashirama has enter Sage mode for first on-screen. Buddha also didn't make Madara's schocked or scared which means Madara already has seen it in action.

Madara's reaction:
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Second, Hashirama was forced to use Sage mode against EMS Madara when he has attacked him first time, and maybe buddha but back then buddha was too strong and shattered Madara's Perfect Sussano.

I mean this battle:
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Third, based on Hashirama's face reaction to Madara pulling Sussano he was not surprised it means MS Madara used Sussano against him back then. Most likely Izuna had it as well.


Now based on my theory that Madara's ms abiltites are:

- seeing through all kind of clones and ability to differ clone from original
- degraded version of Limbo's clone

Hashirama was forced to use Sage mode to sense and deal with Madara's degraded Limbo version.
After estabilishing all that stuff. I would like to add my own script for off-screen battle of Hashirama vs Madara. I mean from this moment:
You must be registered for see images

^^ as we saw the last panel before Kishi decided to went off-screen was close up on Madara's EMS pattern, which always imply use of MS abiltity as Kishi has done each time.

My script for cut part of battle:

[Hashirama jumps to side]
[Close up on Madara's EMS]
Madara: You will pay for stealing Kyuubi from me, Hashirama ! (run towards him)
[Madara begin to punching and kicking trying to hit Hashirama who anticipate every move avoiding or blocking them.]
Hashirama: It is not use, Madara (begin to counter by throwing punch at Madara's face)
[Madara watches Hashirama's in slow motion in his Chokou Tomoe EMS vision leaning slightly to side avoiding attack]
Hashirama: ?! (throws more punches and kicks, but Madara keep evading then block few strikes finally)
Madara/Hashirama: Damn you ! (jumps away from each other)
Madara: Close combat fight is no use, takes this Fire Release: Great Fire Annihilation !
[Madara blows powerfull fire stream at Hashirama who weave handseal as wall made of wood rises up]
Hashirama: Wood release: Wood walls !
Madara: (having trouble to breath in and out) tsk *I will use Limbo then* (focus on right eye) Limbo Hengoku !
Hashirama(still in sage mode): *this is it, he has no enough chakra to use Sussano of enough level to destroy it* Wood Release: Great Forest Technique ! (clap hands)
[Massive amount of roots sprout from ground emerging from ground and growing into full forest]
[Madara jumps back avoiding branches trying to trap him by doing back flip and landing few meters back]
Hashirama: (notices Madara panting) I will finish this Madara, get read- ?! (sense something)
[Hashirama moves to side as trying to avoid incomming attack]
Hashirama: Didn't you learn from our last time, Madara ?! special ability of your right eye won't work on me as long as I have Sage mode active.
Madara: *Damn... he is right. He can not see it but he can sense it* do not understimate me, Hashirama.
Hashirama: ?! (notices fire ball comming at his back from nowhere)
[Hashirama clap his hands creating wood dome around him protecting him from giant fireball]
[Fireball clashes with wood dome's surface blowing part of it as it smokes.]
Hashirama: *Damn... him, I am getting low on chakra as well* I will end this Madara (wood dome opens up)
Hashirama: Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees !
[Giant flower-forest sprouts from ground towering over Madara. Flower emits sleeping pollen]
Madara: *pollen... he is trying to put me to sleep or posion me !* (get affected)
Hashirama: There is no way to flee Madara, admit you lose.
[Shadow of Madara in black and white colors completes handseals doing big breath of air]
Madara's shadow: Fire Release: Great Fire Destruction ! (blow intense stream of fire)
[Massive thick amount of fire reaches Flower three world engulfing it and burning it completly to ashes.]
Hashirama: ?!damn... so due to your brother's and your's eyes merging you can keep Limbo longer then before
[Real Madara get up on his feet as sleeping pollen fades away. Instantly roots emerge from ground trying to catch him but Madara jumps back in time throwing shuriken with explosive note at aproaching roots.]
Hashirama(struggles to maintain Sage mode): Tsk?! *Here Madara's shadow comes ?!*
[Hashirama throws smoke bomb on ground shrouding the battlefield]
Madara: *what is he up to * ?!
[Some wood clones emerge from ground from Madara's back trying to occupy him]
[Meanwhile as smoke scatter many Hashirama's are shown. Noone stay in Sage mode. Buddha is absent also.]
Hashirama: *I will wait for Madara's shadow to attack. He should attack any of me. He wouldn't differ original from clones as Madara could *
Hashirama: ?! (Hashirama caugh blood as he is shown wounded in chest)
[Madara is shown finally dealing with clones as he lands on ground panting even more]
Madara: Due to my new eyes, my previous powers get stronger. Now my shadow's can also use all ms techniques of mine ?!
[Wood clones around Hashirama turns in wood sticks as Hashirama forms handseal]
Hashirama: Sealing barrier: wrath of holy buddha !
Madara: tsk *too bad my shadow can creates another shadow,You will fall Hashirama*(smirks) ?!
[Madara's vision shows Two shadows of Madara frozen in place unable to move]
Madara: Damn you (try to make shadow breaking of sealing barrier but it won't work) ?! *that positon of clones ?!*
[Madara's shadow fuses back with first shadow as Madara's EMS pattern fades away]
Hashirama(serious): Finally, we will comunicate with our fists ,Madara. (releases barrier)
Madara's shadow comes back to Madara fusing with his real body
[roots and remaining of forest dissolves into ground as Madara and Hashirama glare at each other]

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^^ The rest of cannon battle happen
 
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Eternal Sage

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Hashirama > Madara, I like your idea on his MS abilities though
 

Demonic.

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EMS Madara used the freaking Kyuubi and he still lost. Hashirama clearly shits on him.
 

lanakui8

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Hashirama and EMS Madara + 100% Kurama are at the same level, though hashirama is still the stronger one.

Hashirama and EMS Madara w/o Kurama are clearly not at the same level.

limbo is madaraʻs rinnegan technique just like instant swapping is Sasukeʻs rinnegan tech. If limbo or a lesser version of it was Madaraʻs MS or even EMS tech, Madara would have used it at least once at VoTe or as an edo tensei.
 
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ShinjuMadara

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Hashirama and Madara were equals. Hashirama won out of pure chance. It could've easily gone the other way. Also Izanagi is a plot hole.
 

Gerkak

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I still think hashirama was a level higher. I mean without kyuubi, madara wouldn't have damaged hashirama's buddha that much. This goes to show that hashirama is at least one level above madara.

Nice thread.
 

Vapid

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Hashirama was at least two tiers above Madara in power.
 

Itachi 4 life

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Limbo is a rinnegan tech. Limbo Solos any version of Hashirama dude. If it was a MS tech, why would he tell Zetsu:"Let me show you the full power of rinnegan", then use Limbo seconds later?
 

KCMNaruto

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Hashirama and Madara were equals. Hashirama won out of pure chance. It could've easily gone the other way. Also Izanagi is a plot hole.

Well my points:

EMS Madara > Base Hashirama, as Hashirama needed SM for just sensing ability to deal with powered down Limbo's shadow.
Also I am sure EMS Madara with PS can stalemate SM Hashirama on his own UNTIL Hashirama summons Buddha.

It was most likely EMS madara with PS ~ SM Hashirama with Myojin

EMS Madara was not schocked or affected in any way of Base Hashirama's performance against him. I believe he was playing around or at least holding back against Base Hashirama pushing him and forcing to enter Sage mode so the real battle could happen. Back then Buddha was easily much stronger then EMS Madara with PS along with powered down limbo.

SM Hashirama with Buddha ~ EMS Madara with Kyuubi under control > SM Hashirama with Myojin ~ EMS Madara with PS > Base Hashirama
 

KCMNaruto

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Limbo is a rinnegan tech. Limbo Solos any version of Hashirama dude. If it was a MS tech, why would he tell Zetsu:"Let me show you the full power of rinnegan", then use Limbo seconds later?

Because Rinnegan was stated to be evolution of sharingan even if not in natural way as Ashura chakra was needed.

Anyway He would simpy mean ms ability empowered with Rinnegan could be counter as Rinnegan's ability for original user.
 

SaskeyUchihahahaTard

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Base Hashirama> EMS Madara
SM> Hashirama> EMS Madara with Kyuubi
cheat code enhanced faildara is another story though.
 

VongolaX

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If Madara had Limbo, he wouldn't of loss.

A single clone that was able to knock all nine powerful bijuus on their @ss would be more than enough to send Hashirama's buddah technique flying.

On top of that, limbo clones as seen are indestructible and can only maintain damage through rikudou chakra attacks or damaging the original user dead.

Even when injured the limbo clones can still act, they're from the invisible realm.
 

AlphaScythian

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They are equal.
They were fighting each other for years, most of which madara used 3T, later MS that cant be spammed, took on senju with EMS, lost the final fight cuz he used izanagi at wrong time.
 

Rike Senju

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Base Hashirama > EMS madara. SM Hashi > EMS madara + 100% kyuubi.
 

KCMNaruto

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If Madara had Limbo, he wouldn't of loss.

A single clone that was able to knock all nine powerful bijuus on their @ss would be more than enough to send Hashirama's buddah technique flying.

On top of that, limbo clones as seen are indestructible and can only maintain damage through rikudou chakra attacks or damaging the original user dead.

Even when injured the limbo clones can still act, they're from the invisible realm.

but what if this original Madara's ms ability was enhanced with Rikudou chakra, just like Kamui which Obito should call Rikudou Kamui since he implanted Rinengan in his other eye.


1. I believe it wasn't pure physcial strength of Madara's shadows is which caused Tailed beasts to be thrown away, because shadows contain same physcial strength as original right ? I believe Madara's shadow got between them and used Shinra tensei to push them away.

2. @ bold part, it would be easily Rikudou chakra enhancing his original destructabe/harmable and senseable with normal SM shadows.

THis is all assumption, but it maybe Rikudou chakra upgraded them, as Kakashi noted kamui was upgraded due to obito's eyes begin affect by Rikudou chakra which also is part of Rinnegan's eye and Obito has it since he has enter the war
 

ad0

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Madara with Kyuubi was little stronger than hashirama.

EMS Madara and SM Hashirama are equal

I already said that the first time madara got EMS he was weaker than SM Hashirama i mean this fight:
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But after that fight EMS Madara and SM Hashirama were Equal
Krishi moto has kept a lot of info missing in those fights
 
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VongolaX

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but what if this original Madara's ms ability was enhanced with Rikudou chakra, just like Kamui which Obito should call Rikudou Kamui since he implanted Rinengan in his other eye.


1. I believe it wasn't pure physcial strength of Madara's shadows is which caused Tailed beasts to be thrown away, because shadows contain same physcial strength as original right ? I believe Madara's shadow got between them and used Shinra tensei to push them away.

2. @ bold part, it would be easily Rikudou chakra enhancing his original destructabe/harmable and senseable with normal SM shadows.

THis is all assumption, but it maybe Rikudou chakra upgraded them, as Kakashi noted kamui was upgraded due to obito's eyes begin affect by Rikudou chakra which also is part of Rinnegan's eye and Obito has it since he has enter the war

I know what you mean by enhanced, but the chakra just prolong and increase the ocular powers eyes.


Like when Kakashi had rikudou chakra, it negated the deteorance despite not having Hashirama/Ashura's chakra.

It didn't increase Perfect a Susanoo's strength, it didn't allow Kakashi to create a black hole the size of Kaguya's Gudodama either.

It accurated the eyes performance to infinite levels

You understand where I'm implying though right?

I like your theory but....
 
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