Looks like Neiji was right after all...

[NinMan]

Way back before Shippuden, Neiji fought against Naruto and made some statements about his views on life. He talked about ninja's place and that the strongest inevitably won etc. Looks like he was right.

Naruto is a Kyuubi, he's destined to win against someone like Neiji... and he did. Naruto trying to make a point to otherwise was kinda funny to me.

Pein has the rinnegan and the use of multiple bodies, beating Jiraiya and Kakashi was inevitable.

It's apparent also that Itachi still would've beaten Sasuke if it were his true intention.

The 8-tails was also superior.

I guess we don't really need to talk about Hinata.

Kakashi also spoke about the next gen always surpassing the previous gen. Like there are no Bruce Lees in the Shinobi world

Come one Kishi, you're countering your points here

 

[Iqus]

its true wait u said but whats the point ?cuz i dont get it

 

[NinMan]

Just that Kishi was trying to say (with Naruto's fight against Neiji) that with hard work a "lesser" being could beat an "elite" but so far he hasn't really proved that

 

[JustMyself]

Just that Kishi was trying to say (with Naruto's fight against Neiji) that with hard work a "lesser" being could beat an "elite" but so far he hasn't really proved that

Ninja must learn to read the undernaeth of the underneath... he already proved it, just pay more attention to the story instead of a bunch of bad ass Justus and moves.

 

[twistedlink]

Ninja must learn to read the undernaeth of the underneath... he already proved it, just pay more attention to the story instead of a bunch of bad ass Justus and moves.

...im sorry...what?

Thats proving nothing by repeating a phrase "ninja must learn to read the underneath of the underneath"

Kishis statements by naruto states a non genius can beat a genius with hard work.
Or otherwise a naturally strong ninja cant be beaten by a ninja who works hard who may also be quite strong

So far he hasnt shown a fight where that is true.

Orochimaru vs Jiraiya
Natural genius vs hard worker

No score Draw

Naruto vs Neji

Naruto has 9tails, has the OP states, it was an inevitable win on narutos side, and naruto was the "naturally strongest" one given he has little control over kyubii chakra.

Pain vs Jiraiya

Pain is the natural genius, and has an eye technique, hes naturally beefed up, the training just made him more formiddable.

Jiraiya worked hard to become great, jiraiya lost-really easily.

Kakashi vs pain

Pain won

Pain vs Tsunade-pfft

Konoha ninja vs kakuzu (he had experience and worked hard)

konoha won.


Sorry but kishi is a hypocrite when it comes to this...

Many statements in naruto are rather cliche, and contradictory to many other statements, its sentimental rubbish humans love hearing if theyre sappy hippies, because repeating a famous quote or cliche line gets listeners, doesnt change the fact its usually a complete load of bullshit, ergo why its cliche.

 

[twistedlink]

The only fight i can think of is gaara vs deidara where deidara won.

Though that fight is unfair given gaara used like 90% of his chakra holding up 70,000 tonnes of sand and moving it 5 kilometres out of the way.

If it was simply gaara vs deidara, wow, deidara wouldve been owned bigtime.

 

[punk365]

Way back before Shippuden, Neiji fought against Naruto and made some statements about his views on life. He talked about ninja's place and that the strongest inevitably won etc. Looks like he was right.

Naruto is a Kyuubi, he's destined to win against someone like Neiji... and he did. Naruto trying to make a point to otherwise was kinda funny to me.

Pein has the rinnegan and the use of multiple bodies, beating Jiraiya and Kakashi was inevitable.

It's apparent also that Itachi still would've beaten Sasuke if it were his true intention.

The 8-tails was also superior.

I guess we don't really need to talk about Hinata.

Kakashi also spoke about the next gen always surpassing the previous gen. Like there are no Bruce Lees in the Shinobi world

Come one Kishi, you're countering your points here

neji is one who will alwayz try to make a hypothesis on sumone is destined to do with there life...

 

[UzumakiJake]

U hav a point actually. Cuz naruto is "THE DESTINED CHILD"

 

[JustMyself]

Yes, if we see everything through your point of view, it's indeed very true, but...
victory over someone doesn't means actually winning a battle through raw power but through the derise to keep ahead, never giving up to an obstacle. It's fact that you'll not get strong all of sudden, but the guts that keeps you going ahead is what makes someone stronger until they finally surpasses those said to be stronger, that's kishi's point of view initially stated after neji's battle and that's why he became strong now, he began to believe on hard work instead of destiny.

However, it's not me that will explain that in minor details here, cuz that'll require a lot of text and I'm not so used to english to write something huge like that, nor I think someone will pay attention. I can only say, kishi's isn't trying to define strong and weak persons just by the extention of his/her raw power... by the, I know you'll disagree my statement.

Just to give an example, which for sure will be contradicted, look beyond what you can see and ask-me, who won the battle between hinata and neji at the chunnin exams, I think it was hinata, even losing the actual battle. Hope someone who defend my point of view can explain this better, cuz I'm a natural bad explainer.

Wait and see.
Peace.

 

[zumorikato]

Yes, if we see everything through your point of view, it's indeed very true, but...
victory over someone doesn't means actually winning a battle through raw power but through the derise to keep ahead, never giving up to an obstacle. It's fact that you'll not get strong all of sudden, but the guts that keeps you going ahead is what makes someone stronger until they finally surpasses those said to be stronger, that's kishi's point of view initially stated after neji's battle and that's why he became strong now, he began to believe on hard work instead of destiny.

However, it's not me that will explain that in minor details here, cuz that'll require a lot of text and I'm not so used to english to write something huge like that, nor I think someone will pay attention. I can only say, kishi's isn't trying to define strong and weak persons just by the extention of his/her raw power... by the, I know you'll disagree my statement.

Just to give an example, which for sure will be contradicted, look beyond what you can see and ask-me, who won the battle between hinata and neji at the chunnin exams, I think it was hinata, even losing the actual battle. Hope someone who defend my point of view can explain this better, cuz I'm a natural bad explainer.

Wait and see.
Peace.

Hi guys, I actually agree with JustMyself. This is looking beyond the ordinary.


BTW I think this is a very good thread, with lots of insight and point of views, and let me say, everyone posting thus far have very much valid points.

But also let me ask this Q if it is like you say that the strongest inevitably will won, whom then between Naruto and Pain are going to win the fight? Because Pain is classed as a extraordinary Ninja, and Naruto have the Kyuubi? So they both are strong, just because one of them are going to lose, does that make him less strong?

Lets also take this example, if Shikamaru held Hinata hostage and forced Naruto to give up his bijuu to pain to prevent any losses from the village side, whom would you say is the stronger one? Sometimes the intelligence factor also plays an overall role, and that is not always accounted for.

I also have to agree with you Twisty, that there is sometimes clich?'s in the manga, especially Naruto him self. Where it always stipulates that Ninja's need to be emotionless ect. Naruto is the exact opposite there of, and yet he is a ninja. Weird eint it? ; )

 

[JustMyself]

Thanks for the support man.
About the cliches, it's sometimes inevitable and thanks god it's not like the knight of the zodiac,

 

[twistedlink]

Yes, if we see everything through your point of view, it's indeed very true, but...
victory over someone doesn't means actually winning a battle through raw power but through the derise to keep ahead, never giving up to an obstacle. It's fact that you'll not get strong all of sudden, but the guts that keeps you going ahead is what makes someone stronger until they finally surpasses those said to be stronger, that's kishi's point of view initially stated after neji's battle and that's why he became strong now, he began to believe on hard work instead of destiny.

However, it's not me that will explain that in minor details here, cuz that'll require a lot of text and I'm not so used to english to write something huge like that, nor I think someone will pay attention. I can only say, kishi's isn't trying to define strong and weak persons just by the extention of his/her raw power... by the, I know you'll disagree my statement.

Just to give an example, which for sure will be contradicted, look beyond what you can see and ask-me, who won the battle between hinata and neji at the chunnin exams, I think it was hinata, even losing the actual battle. Hope someone who defend my point of view can explain this better, cuz I'm a natural bad explainer.

Wait and see.
Peace.

Good luck revising for your exams and failing them all and thinking youve passed them

Because thats what youre saying.

The victor is the one who won, thats the definition of the word "victor"

youre thinking of a victory in terms of ones personal achievements, Hinata achieved much during her fight with neji true, but shes not the victor.

By your logic every single person is victorious just because each day may lead to a new personal record on anything and bettering oneself, which is what naruto was stating, hard work and changing what your "nature" is (him being thick) will yield greater fruits.

However for hinata it hasnt, neji can still own her in a fight and shes still useless...so...yeah.

As to naruto, the problem with naruto is he was first portrayed as some idiotic kid with no brains, and kishi still writes him as a pretty below averaged intelligence guy, yet he can do sage mode and make the fuuton rasengan both requiring some form of understanding how the jutsu works, so hes portrayed as an idiot but surpasses geniuses with hard work through his achievements in jutsu, which personally is contradictory.

Lets also take this example, if Shikamaru held Hinata hostage and forced Naruto to give up his bijuu to pain to prevent any losses from the village side, whom would you say is the stronger one? Sometimes the intelligence factor also plays an overall role, and that is not always accounted for.

strength is strength, intelligence is intelligence, completely different things that when worked together make whatever, a scholar, a ninja, a warrior.

Words have meaning for this reason otherwise i can simply use this logic to state im better than everyone else because yesterday i decided to do something new id never done that someone else here didnt do, however if i fought all of you i would undoubtebly lose.

Pain has been weakened before he went against naruto, and its difficult determining the power differences now because the story has become very in depth and naruto changes a lot, hes useless in non serious battles and brilliant in serious battles.

 

[Dean-Winchester]

Way back before Shippuden, Neiji fought against Naruto and made some statements about his views on life. He talked about ninja's place and that the strongest inevitably won etc. Looks like he was right.

Naruto is a Kyuubi, he's destined to win against someone like Neiji... and he did. Naruto trying to make a point to otherwise was kinda funny to me.

Pein has the rinnegan and the use of multiple bodies, beating Jiraiya and Kakashi was inevitable.

It's apparent also that Itachi still would've beaten Sasuke if it were his true intention.

The 8-tails was also superior.

I guess we don't really need to talk about Hinata.

Kakashi also spoke about the next gen always surpassing the previous gen. Like there are no Bruce Lees in the Shinobi world

Come one Kishi, you're countering your points here

u do have a point @ the same time
neji was won over by narutos ideals
NAruto is right about making choices & he is right to never give up
thats wat i tihink he was talking to neji about
But maybe that is jsut me

 

[zumorikato]

Good luck revising for your exams and failing them all and thinking youve passed them

Because thats what youre saying.

The victor is the one who won, thats the definition of the word "victor"

youre thinking of a victory in terms of ones personal achievements, Hinata achieved much during her fight with neji true, but shes not the victor.

By your logic every single person is victorious just because each day may lead to a new personal record on anything and bettering oneself, which is what naruto was stating, hard work and changing what your "nature" is (him being thick) will yield greater fruits.

However for hinata it hasnt, neji can still own her in a fight and shes still useless...so...yeah.

As to naruto, the problem with naruto is he was first portrayed as some idiotic kid with no brains, and kishi still writes him as a pretty below averaged intelligence guy, yet he can do sage mode and make the fuuton rasengan both requiring some form of understanding how the jutsu works, so hes portrayed as an idiot but surpasses geniuses with hard work through his achievements in jutsu, which personally is contradictory.




strength is strength, intelligence is intelligence, completely different things that when worked together make whatever, a scholar, a ninja, a warrior.

Words have meaning for this reason otherwise i can simply use this logic to state im better than everyone else because yesterday i decided to do something new id never done that someone else here didnt do, however if i fought all of you i would undoubtebly lose.

Pain has been weakened before he went against naruto, and its difficult determining the power differences now because the story has become very in depth and naruto changes a lot, hes useless in non serious battles and brilliant in serious battles.

Ok, true.

I like what you say, its a good point, but then lets look at the actual event that took place between Neji and Naruto. Neji's statement where if im correct that "A genius will always surpass a normal hard working ninja", or rather "a hard working Ninja will never surpass a Genius" . So lets compare those two, instead of the other arguments, like which shinobi we think might be stronger.

I can talk from experience over here and that is how I will explain my perception of this. I was a normal school boy, and I had this friend at school where he always got straight A's and 90% +, he whooped my ass in everything. Now, I own a part of a successfully business, married, have my own house ect. And he is a drug addict, not knowing how to get rid of his addiction. So if you say that Neji was right? Do you think that is applicable in this argument?

Ok that was comparing a real live event with the manga, but I think that is the idea that Kisihi is trying to bring forth to the reader.

Lets compare a manga event that we all know, just to prove it. The valley at the end fight between Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke challenged Naruto in stating that he would not even be able to make a mark on his forehead. Even though Naruto didnt beat Sasuke in that battle, he did complete the challenge by making a mark on Sasuke's forehead protector. Thus proving Sasuke wrong.

Another thing, lets take Gaara vs Naruto for an example, as it looks to me Gaara doesnt do that much practises, yet he is one of the most feared and smartest shinobi that the Sand had to offer, I would class him in the level of genius, other wise he would not have been elected kazekage, or be sent to konoha for the attack on Saratobi? Where Naruto trained day and night. Yet Naruto was able to beat him in and his Bijuu in a fair fight.

Thus showing that a "a hard working Ninja have surpassed a Genius"

thanks for your previous post ; )

 

[JustMyself]

... all you said here ...

It's going to be fun, , so let's just sit down and talk a bit more until we reach a consensus (yes, I'm able to change my beliefs if convinced ).

You're right, the definition of the word victor is indeed the winner in a competition.
Personal achievements leads to personal victory, but not the real victory.
About hinata's fight, that wasn't from the begging a battle to see who'll beat the crap out of the opponent, but some sort of a verbal battle, where each one was trying to prove themselves in a matter of speaking. That's what is underneath the obvious (a physical battle), and them, hinata won this invisible battle.
No character born strong, he/she needs a lot of hard work to develop his/her strenght to be somewhat considered a strong person, which will lead to victory.
My word, there are more battles around there than the obvious physical ones.
Now waiting for what you have to say.
Peace.

 

[zumorikato]

It's going to be fun, , so let's just sit down and talk a bit more until we reach a consensus (yes, I'm able to change my beliefs if convinced ).

You're right, the definition of the word victor is indeed the winner in a competition.
Personal achievements leads to personal victory, but not the real victory.
About hinata's fight, that wasn't from the begging a battle to see who'll beat the crap out of the opponent, but some sort of a verbal battle, where each one was trying to prove themselves in a matter of speaking. That's what is underneath the obvious (a physical battle), and them, hinata this invisible battle.
No character born strong, he/she needs a lot of hard work to develop his/her strenght to be somewhat considered a strong person, which will lead to victory.
My word, there are more battles around there than the obvious physical ones.
Now waiting for what you have to say.
Peace.

Again, very good reply, there is a lot more than meets the eye between these battles, and I like the facts that you provided. But to keep things from becoming a blood bath ; ) I think we should focus on the main argument and that is the one between if a normal ninja, that works hard can surpass a genius, I have stated my reason above. ; )

Greate work !!!

 

[NinMan]

Another thing, lets take Gaara vs Naruto for an example, as it looks to me Gaara doesnt do that much practises, yet he is one of the most feared and smartest shinobi that the Sand had to offer, I would class him in the level of genius, other wise he would not have been elected kazekage, or be sent to konoha for the attack on Saratobi? Where Naruto trained day and night. Yet Naruto was able to beat him in and his Bijuu in a fair fight.

Thus showing that a "a hard working Ninja have surpassed a Genius"

9 Tails beats 2 Tails

 

[zumorikato]

9 Tails beats 2 Tails

hahahhaa, funny you see it that way.

I see it more like Naruto beat Gaara