no, no he hasn't. Just because he knows a 1000 jutsus doesn't make any stronger because by that logic Kakashi must be stronger than everyone. Ohnoki has shown far more feats as an old man and doesn't have to rely on the lame excuse of not being in his prime anymore. So how come Hiruzen has to?
All of hiruzens legends, hype, and feats comes from him in his prime.. In Hiruzens prime he was the strongest hinobi to ever exist. That why i alwasy refer to him in his prime. Kakashi is fodder compair to hiruzen. and the diffrence between kakashi and hiruzen is that hiruzen's chakra levels were enormous allowing him to actually use all those techniques. Kakashi's chakra levels are average.
You stopped there? Why? Because you know I'm right, and you're relying on what Madara is saying. Hmm... Let's see, Hiruzen was showed defeating Hashi and his brother (Yes, he defeated them because they couldn't do anything anymore, they were sealed, end of that) vs. Madara saying only Hashi can beat him w/o having any proof of that. Hmmm.. Wonder what's more reliable U_U Face it, Hiruzen owned Hashi and Tobirama, and is the strongest Hokage to ever exist.
Defeating needs a winner. ... And also defeating does not equal suicide... Also, defeating someone requires the other person to have full control of their thoughts and etc. Sakura and Chiyo beat Sasori.. so they also beat the 3rd Kazekage?? no.
Come on man look at oonoki he would rape hiruzen they are about the same age give or take .. What hiruzen showed was disappointing and blaming it on age ? Please hiruzen got the god of shinobi for knowing all those and he mastered all form .. I can say so did hashirama clan hype - if you think hiruzen beats hashirama in med jutsu then I have nothing to say.. Hiruzen could have used these med jutsu or other sealing techs if he mastered it all
i think thats the problem here.. you all are compairing hashirama to old hiruzen.. I am reffering to hiruzen in his prime. Hashirama died in his prime, so why would i compare a old hiruzen to a young hashirama. All the titles hiruzen gained was during his prime. Prime hiruzen > Hashirama, and that is stated and reffered by the manga.
SOO, only people who are OP should have their words taking as fact... the whole manga would be ruined if we followed your logic. Madara never said hashirama was the strongest hokage. Nowhere in shuppuden is it said that hashirama is the strongest hokage, yet in pt 1 it is quoted many times that hiruzen is the strongest shinobi to ever live, that he is the strongest hokage konoha ever produced, and that he was the strongest kage during his reign. All of these statement refer to him in his prime. Not the old guy you keep restricting him to.
Erm I don't know why you only use strongest hokage ... Hashirama has a scan calling him the strongest of his time and the strongest shinobi ( him and his brother ) I believe hiruzens says he was said to be : probably by the people who didn't believe in hashiramas power treated it like fairy tale ..
Defeating needs a winner. ... And also defeating does not equal suicide... Also, defeating someone requires the other person to have full control of their thoughts and etc. Sakura and Chiyo beat Sasori.. so they also beat the 3rd Kazekage?? no.
Hiruzen did win, he saved the village, did he not? He even defeated Hashi and Tobi with a clone. No it doesn't, it's never been stated in the dictionary that Defeat has to be with a person that has feelings and what not. Fanboyism? Lmao, your name is KingHashirama, and you only side with Hashirama. Lmao, quit being a hypocrit and face facts - Hiruzen > Hashi any time.
IF hashi went up against PS then that was bad asz.
but lets face it. we are never going to see any of the Hokages again, hence why Kishi is showing Hashi's powers through Madara.
who ever was stronger or what ever shouldn't really matter because you only frustrate yourselves and add an extra pimple to your face over speculations of BS.
Dan has knowledge of the 3rd Hokage, who was his Hokage during Dan's time as a ninja. If you do not like the fact someone being stronger then Sarutobi that is your fault. I have already moved on with the manga, from Sarutobi being the strongest to Hashirama. And soon it'll be Naruto, Sasuke or Obito or Kabuto.
No his opinion just states that even Sarutobi can't take on EMS madara. "Legends" are born from real things. And they were legends during that time.. they were just part of history. Probably regarded as the strongest. But again your a stubborn piece of work.
Muu stated that only Onoki could stop him..... why?? Because he was only person able to stop him on the field.. I like how you twisted it..
Hmm... why? I asked Madara on who can stop him.. and he gave me the answer. Simple as that.
No , Manga said "There aren't ninjas on his level anymore".... big difference then what you said. =] And to Madara Uchiha he is the strongest ninja. So really don't care what you want say about him..
Anime : "Those 2 are the greatest Shinobis the leaf has seen"
Manga: "Ultimate Shinobi" , "Guy who stopped the nine tails and Madara uchiha"
Sarutobi:
Anime/manga: "The proffesor" , "The god of shinobi"..
Feats: ?? ohhh yess i know.... because he knew alot of jutsus =O Ohhh myy gooddd.. But we still have no idea how he can possibly stand up to Hashirama's mokuton tech.. But you know what he knew all the techniques of the leaf.
~sigh~ Is this what you hiruzen fans have lowered to??
Right, it was stated by both Dan and Madara that only Hashirama can defeat Madara... we know this,
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but as exaar said, Muu also stated that only Onooki can defeat him,
You claim he was speaking of the people on the battlefield ?
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No.. If he was, he would have said, you're the only person here who can defeat me... he did not say that... he said exactly what madara etc said... You're the only person who can defeat me...
By YOUR logic, and this entire threads logic, automatically Muu > Madara , Muu > Hashirama... Don't be stupid.. these statements aren't to be taken as fact..... Muu could not possibly know all the ninjas who existed at that time...
If muu knew of nagato etc, he would never have said such a thing.... Naruto was the one to defeat muu, rendering his statement fallacious ..... The fact that madara and dan, like muu know nothing of any other ninjas of the current time renders their entire statement void
Let's put the icing on the cake
The only info Dan would ever have on Madara is what? up to EMS ...If there are any information on him in books, then it would only go up to him having ems, since he went into hiding afterwards...
EMS Madara
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Would have been defeated by the combination of Onooki, Gaara and Naruto
If Madara did not have rinnegan, it would have been over..
This means that DAN'S statement is instantly void... since he stated that only Hashirama can defeat EMS madara
Now lets look at the Viz scan of what madara actually said
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"Only hashirama could ever stop me "
This can be interpreted in two ways, the one I believe due to the obvious evidence stated above, is he was speaking in PAST tense , And saying Hashirama was the only person who could ever stop him in the past, and he's not here at the moment....
That would be a logical thing that madara would say.. since he clearly doesn't know the strengths of the ninja who exists in this time.. It would make NO sense for him to be talking in the present tense
i think thats the problem here.. you all are compairing hashirama to old hiruzen.. I am reffering to hiruzen in his prime. Hashirama died in his prime, so why would i compare a old hiruzen to a young hashirama. All the titles hiruzen gained was during his prime. Prime hiruzen > Hashirama, and that is stated and reffered by the manga.
Yet you know nothing about this prime hiruzen .. As you don't know anything about hashiramas prime .. Arguably he died before he reached his full potential ... Did minato die in his prime ? ..judging from what we have seen hashirama >>> hiruzen
And Kakashi fodder ? Lol what I think we are done here
If you believe hiruzen is god on par with so6p can't change your mind
How much chakra did hiruzen have?
How many jutsu could he actually use in battle?
Kakashi knows 1k one should have let him best itachi in gen but he got rapped badly
Kakashi knows 1k jutsu he got raped by pain
Some of those he probably wasn't even able to use ..
1. ... You're saying hiruzen has more chakra or on par with hashirama ? That's like comparing Kakashi and tsunade dude
2. Sorry about that ( why didn't he use a couple of jutsu to stop them. Without killing himself if he had so many?
3 . They came short range after he went blind why didn't they stay long range and kill him? It states they were only toying with him and it was orochimarus mistake to do so if he wanted he could have killed him he realised to late.. Logical thing to do would be blind him - go long range and spam techs and chuck Kunais seeing as how when hiruzen got punched he was abit puzzled I'd Say chances are he would have died
4. The tech he used was on a smaller scale .. I didn't see 80% of what he could apparently do with mokuton in that fight ..he was limited to what he could do because Orochimaru was stupid to try toy with hiruzen .. If they fought again hiruzen would die fast .. Without all the toying around and talking ... All the things they used against him didn't really show any killing intent or wasn't enough to kill him ( Orochimaru wanted to beat hiruzen physiologically )
Right, it was stated by both Dan and Madara that only Hashirama can defeat Madara... we know this,
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but as exaar said, Muu also stated that only Onooki can defeat him,
You claim he was speaking of the people on the battlefield ?
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No.. If he was, he would have said, you're the only person here who can defeat me... he did not say that... he said exactly what madara etc said... You're the only person who can defeat me...
By YOUR logic, and this entire threads logic, automatically Muu > Madara , Muu > Hashirama... Don't be stupid.. these statements aren't to be taken as fact..... Muu could not possibly know all the ninjas who existed at that time...
If muu knew of nagato etc, he would never have said such a thing.... Naruto was the one to defeat muu, rendering his statement fallacious ..... The fact that madara and dan, like muu know nothing of any other ninjas of the current time renders their entire statement void
Let's put the icing on the cake
The only info Dan would ever have on Madara is what? up to EMS ...If there are any information on him in books, then it would only go up to him having ems, since he went into hiding afterwards...
EMS Madara
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Would have been defeated by the combination of Onooki, Gaara and Naruto
If Madara did not have rinnegan, it would have been over..
This means that DAN'S statement is instantly void... since he stated that only Hashirama can defeat EMS madara
Now lets look at the Viz scan of what madara actually said
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"Only hashirama could ever stop me "
This can be interpreted in two ways, the one I believe due to the obvious evidence stated above, is he was speaking in PAST tense , And saying Hashirama was the only person who could ever stop him in the past, and he's not here at the moment....
That would be a logical thing that madara would say.. since he clearly doesn't know the strengths of the ninja who exists in this time.. It would make NO sense for him to be talking in the present tense
I hope you realize.. Muu said "you the only person that can stop me"..... Hmm lets see, who was the strongest one there?? oh yea Onoki.. who was the one who knew muu?? oh yea Onoki.... Soo yea. ;]
And to your "could" arguement that many other desperate people make over and over..He has lived through 3 hokage reigns. Out of Tobirama and Hashirama and Sarutobi... He said Hashirama. Tobirama and Sarutobi are automatically cut off. And he can't be saying "only hashirama could ever stop me in the past" why? Because Madara was the challenger. NOT Hashirama. Him saying that after Perfect Susano'o..... hmmm. ok. Only Hokage left out is Minato... But Hashirama pawns him also... why? Because doing what Minato did and with no help also.. So there you go.
That "could " statement you made is only used by desperate people mate. I do not suggest using it.
Also, the original translation doesn't say "could ever".... just so you know.
Right, it was stated by both Dan and Madara that only Hashirama can defeat Madara... we know this,
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but as exaar said, Muu also stated that only Onooki can defeat him,
You claim he was speaking of the people on the battlefield ?
You must be registered for see images
No.. If he was, he would have said, you're the only person here who can defeat me... he did not say that... he said exactly what madara etc said... You're the only person who can defeat me...
By YOUR logic, and this entire threads logic, automatically Muu > Madara , Muu > Hashirama... Don't be stupid.. these statements aren't to be taken as fact..... Muu could not possibly know all the ninjas who existed at that time...
If muu knew of nagato etc, he would never have said such a thing.... Naruto was the one to defeat muu, rendering his statement fallacious ..... The fact that madara and dan, like muu know nothing of any other ninjas of the current time renders their entire statement void
Let's put the icing on the cake
The only info Dan would ever have on Madara is what? up to EMS ...If there are any information on him in books, then it would only go up to him having ems, since he went into hiding afterwards...
EMS Madara
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Would have been defeated by the combination of Onooki, Gaara and Naruto
If Madara did not have rinnegan, it would have been over..
This means that DAN'S statement is instantly void... since he stated that only Hashirama can defeat EMS madara
Now lets look at the Viz scan of what madara actually said
You must be registered for see images
"Only hashirama could ever stop me "
This can be interpreted in two ways, the one I believe due to the obvious evidence stated above, is he was speaking in PAST tense , And saying Hashirama was the only person who could ever stop him in the past, and he's not here at the moment....
That would be a logical thing that madara would say.. since he clearly doesn't know the strengths of the ninja who exists in this time.. It would make NO sense for him to be talking in the present tense
I see you put a lot of effort into that, but most of this information is currently irrelevant. This is not Edo-Madara vs Hashirama. If anything, it is Hashirama vs Hiruzen, and we all know how that ends.
I do, however agree with your statement that character statements should not be taken so seriously. Read my other posts in this thread.
Yet you know nothing about this prime hiruzen .. As you don't know anything about hashiramas prime .. Arguably he died before he reached his full potential ... Did minato die in his prime ? ..judging from what we have seen hashirama >>> hiruzen
And Kakashi fodder ? Lol what I think we are done here
If you believe hiruzen is god on par with so6p can't change your mind
How much chakra did hiruzen have?
How many jutsu could he actually use in battle?
Kakashi knows 1k one should have let him best itachi in gen but he got rapped badly
Kakashi knows 1k jutsu he got raped by pain
Some of those he probably wasn't even able to use ..
Exactly my point.. We havent seen anyone in there prime so you should judge them. the only way we can deduce who is stronger is thru what the manga says.. The manga says hiruzen is the strongest hokage and it also says he is the strongest shinobi of all time.. It calls hashirama the strongest shinobi of his era and says that he is the only one who can beat madara. So basically the manga has said hiruzen is the strongest.
1. I was saying kakashi is fodder compaired to hiruzen in his prime. Im not saying that kakashi is absolutely fodder.
I didnt say hiruzen was on the same level as the so6p.smh
Exactly my point.. We havent seen anyone in there prime so you should judge them. the only way we can deduce who is stronger is thru what the manga says.. The manga says hiruzen is the strongest hokage and it also says he is the strongest shinobi of all time.. It calls hashirama the strongest shinobi of his era and says that he is the only one who can beat madara. So basically the manga has said hiruzen is the strongest.
1. I was saying kakashi is fodder compaired to hiruzen in his prime. Im not saying that kakashi is absolutely fodder.
I didnt say hiruzen was on the same level as the so6p.smh
Correction on the bolded text. The only way we can deduce who is stronger is through what the manga shows, not what it says. I have said this about 4 times now throughout this thread. From what we have seen, Hiruzen Sarutobi is not on the same level as Hashirama Senju. I don't care what the characters say, as character statements almost always contradict each other.
Until I see this "Prime" Hiruzen, I am not convinced.
Right, it was stated by both Dan and Madara that only Hashirama can defeat Madara... we know this,
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but as exaar said, Muu also stated that only Onooki can defeat him,
You claim he was speaking of the people on the battlefield ?
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No.. If he was, he would have said, you're the only person here who can defeat me... he did not say that... he said exactly what madara etc said... You're the only person who can defeat me...
By YOUR logic, and this entire threads logic, automatically Muu > Madara , Muu > Hashirama... Don't be stupid.. these statements aren't to be taken as fact..... Muu could not possibly know all the ninjas who existed at that time...
If muu knew of nagato etc, he would never have said such a thing.... Naruto was the one to defeat muu, rendering his statement fallacious ..... The fact that madara and dan, like muu know nothing of any other ninjas of the current time renders their entire statement void
Let's put the icing on the cake
The only info Dan would ever have on Madara is what? up to EMS ...If there are any information on him in books, then it would only go up to him having ems, since he went into hiding afterwards...
EMS Madara
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Would have been defeated by the combination of Onooki, Gaara and Naruto
If Madara did not have rinnegan, it would have been over..
This means that DAN'S statement is instantly void... since he stated that only Hashirama can defeat EMS madara
Now lets look at the Viz scan of what madara actually said
You must be registered for see images
"Only hashirama could ever stop me "
This can be interpreted in two ways, the one I believe due to the obvious evidence stated above, is he was speaking in PAST tense , And saying Hashirama was the only person who could ever stop him in the past, and he's not here at the moment....
That would be a logical thing that madara would say.. since he clearly doesn't know the strengths of the ninja who exists in this time.. It would make NO sense for him to be talking in the present tense
What do you say about the scan where the anbu call hashirama and Tobirama the strongest ?
And hiruzens statements could also be taken differently
Like this one
He was said to be the strongest hokage
1. Who said he was
2. Do the people who said this have full info on other hokages
3. Where did iruka hear this
4. Is this the same people who don't believe in the so6p and hashiramas godlike powers
When people see something op they immediately think that's the best the people who said that probably saw hiruzen do something hard and thy hailed him as the strongest without full info on others it's like let say 100 years of now or even now ask normal kids who was the smartest person in the world people may not even know who .. If tey say Einstein they probably don't know why he was known as the smartest ... 50 years from now people will be saying for example Steven Hawkins was the smartest based on what info they have I doubt they will have full info on Einstein ..even though some of Stevens work is based on einsteins theories - does that mean Steven has a better understanding ect probably not
( bad example but I don't know how else to explain what I really want to say)
Also all hiruzen has is hype - it's not even backed up at all I could say oonoki > hiruzen from what we've seen the statements only work for the people in hiruzens time and after since they know what is only written about hashirama - ( it's easier to believe something you have seen than something you have heard about ) like the whole Jesus thing people will say show me god and how do you expect someone to show you ( sorry lets not involve religion )
Exactly my point.. We havent seen anyone in there prime so you should judge them. the only way we can deduce who is stronger is thru what the manga says.. The manga says hiruzen is the strongest hokage and it also says he is the strongest shinobi of all time.. It calls hashirama the strongest shinobi of his era and says that he is the only one who can beat madara. So basically the manga has said hiruzen is the strongest.
1. I was saying kakashi is fodder compaired to hiruzen in his prime. Im not saying that kakashi is absolutely fodder.
I didnt say hiruzen was on the same level as the so6p.smh
WRONG. We have no FEATS of Hiruzen's prime.... Yet Hashirama has the feat of taking on the strongest out of the 9 tailed beasts and the strongest Uchiha...
Also where is it stated Hiruzen IS the strongest Hokage??? where? or the IS the strongest Shinobi.. hell strongest and shinobi aren't even used togather for him. lmao.
Also, your 1000 jutsus doesn't mean anything.. since Kakashi is 1000+ now. ;x.
Lets put together the manga...
Dan says : Only the first hokage could stop Madara
Obito: Strongest Shinobi of his time
Madara : People CALLED him the strongest shinobi./ Ultimate Shinobi
Ok so Dan says Ems Madara > Hiruzen automatically. And since Ems Madara > Hiruzen... and Hashirama was in Madara's time.. and was the most feared and the strongest shinobi... in which way in hell is he not the strongest.
Correction on the bolded text. The only way we can deduce who is stronger is through what the manga shows, not what it says. I have said this about 4 times now throughout this thread. From what we have seen, Hiruzen Sarutobi is not on the same level as Hashirama Senju. I don't care what the characters say, as character statements almost always contradict each other.
Until I see this "Prime" Hiruzen, I am not convinced.
But you havent seen what hashirama can do.. You are only going off what people have said.. Other than seening flowering tree world and wood dragon, you know nothing of hashirama's strength and what he can truely do..
It's said that hirzuens the strongest hokage but it doesn't change the fact that his fight with orochimaru was far from impressive. Tbh hashirama wasn't impressive either. The only shinobi inside that barrier that looked impressive ws Tobirama. I'm sure a bunch of people can agree with that.
I think it's obvious that kishi made a mistake with both hashirama and hiruzen.
It's really weird that people really consider hiruzen as the strongest when the jutsu arsenal he displayed was close to pathetic. Shadow clone shuriken. Dragon flame bomb. Mud wall. And shadow clones. He had to take a draw by using minatos technique. Him being old is NOT an excuse because what oonoki is doing now is off the charts for a old guy. Never once complained about his chakra reserves as hiruzen did the entire fight.
Like I said before the manga stated that he was the strongest but his performance says otherwise. Being old isnt a excuse. Oonoki tsunade and chiyo are perfect examples of that.
Exactly my point.. We havent seen anyone in there prime so you should judge them. the only way we can deduce who is stronger is thru what the manga says.. The manga says hiruzen is the strongest hokage and it also says he is the strongest shinobi of all time.. It calls hashirama the strongest shinobi of his era and says that he is the only one who can beat madara. So basically the manga has said hiruzen is the strongest.
1. I was saying kakashi is fodder compaired to hiruzen in his prime. Im not saying that kakashi is absolutely fodder.
I didnt say hiruzen was on the same level as the so6p.smh
No the scan I mean is when Orochimaru summons 1st and second ... The anbu says the strongest shinobi (both hashirama and Tobirama ) doesn't say of their time
I see you put a lot of effort into that, but most of this information is currently irrelevant. This is not Edo-Madara vs Hashirama. If anything, it is Hashirama vs Hiruzen, and we all know how that ends.
I do, however agree with your statement that character statements should not be taken so seriously. Read my other posts in this thread.
what?? I'm replying to op and thesage dude who made an argument stating Hiruzen's hype is void because dan stated Hashirama is the only person that can defeat Madara
A scan to end all of the hiruzen fans.. Since your relying on Iruka's " said to be strongest hokage"... And it was said in part 1.. then we will also use a scan from part 1. A scan that says Tobirama and Hashirama > Sarutobi and plus.. its not vague as "Said to be".. but its "Hailed as ":
... And also defeating does not equal suicide... Also, defeating someone requires the other person to have full control of their thoughts and etc. Sakura and Chiyo beat Sasori.. so they also beat the 3rd Kazekage?? no. 
