[Discussion] Logical perspective on abortion

Yusuke Urameshi

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Last year during my Bible class, we watched this video. I figure others should at least give it a watch. Even if you are pro-choice, it can't hurt to understand the logical and ethical side of pro-lifers, and vice versa.

This video is around an hour and a half (in 3 parts) and is from the perspective of a pro-lifer.

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:

I hope some of you will be interested in this topic, as I was. Abortion is quite the popular topic in today's society, so it's always good to be knowledgeable about your ideology or your opposing ideology.
 

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Last year during my Bible class, we watched this video. I figure others should at least give it a watch. Even if you are pro-choice, it can't hurt to understand the logical and ethical side of pro-lifers, and vice versa.

This video is around an hour and a half (in 3 parts) and is from the perspective of a pro-lifer.

Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:

I hope some of you will be interested in this topic, as I was. Abortion is quite the popular topic in today's society, so it's always good to be knowledgeable about your ideology or your opposing ideology.
It was already decided by the Supreme Court that it is legal and ethical.
 

Tomato God

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One can't put everything into black and white like that.

Maybe the mother would die if she gave birth.
Maybe the baby would be born with a fatal and painful condition.
Maybe I should murder him because he is going to kill 100 people
Does that make murder not black and white.
Maybe I should steal this money because he is using it to buy drugs
Does that make theif not black and white.

At the end of the day nothing is black and white except whats inside
IF she is aborting the baby for selfish reasons back. Selfishness bad. But if she is doing it because she doesnt want the baby do suffer. Altruism. Good.


You cannot simply say that everything cannot be put into black and white, Actions are a matter of circumstance. Motive is a matter of morality.
 
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The Necromancer

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Maybe I should murder him because he is going to kill 100 people
Does that make murder not black and white.
Maybe I should steal this money because he is using it to buy drugs
Does that make theif not black and white.

At the end of the day nothing is black and white except whats inside
IF she is aborting the baby for selfish reasons back. Selfishness bad. But if she is doing it because she doesnt want the baby do suffer. Altruism. Good.


You cannot simply say that everything cannot be put into black and white, Actions are a matter of circumstance. Motive is a matter of morality.
Is that not exactly the point I was making? :|
 

Tomato God

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Is that not exactly the point I was making? :|
Did I say I was Disagreeing with you?
At the end of the day Abortion should be illegal. People shouldnt be able to take others lives just because its an inconvenience. If the mother is threatened its a matter of self-defense. If the baby is in harms way it should be a matter of euthanasia in interest of those who cannot speak for themselves.

Not because you are above living with your mistakes.
 

The Necromancer

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Did I say I was Disagreeing with you?
At the end of the day Abortion should be illegal. People shouldnt be able to take others lives just because its an inconvenience. If the mother is threatened its a matter of self-defense. If the baby is in harms way it should be a matter of euthanasia in interest of those who cannot speak for themselves.

Not because you are above living with your mistakes.
So you would make it illegal for a mother to save her life, forcing her to die with her child?

You say it's a matter of self defense, yet you say it should be illegal. You keep flip-flopping in your responses. It's confusing.
 

Tomato God

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So you would make it illegal for a mother to save her life, forcing her to die with her child?

You say it's a matter of self defense, yet you say it should be illegal. You keep flip-flopping in your responses. It's confusing.
No. I said in the interest of saving a life abortion isnt really abortion. If a mother wants to live more than her kid than she has the right to protect her self. If she doesnt want to watch her kid not live a life worth suffering she has the right. One is self defense and the other is euthanasia neither are abortion.

Both should be legal. BUT what is abortion is killing your baby because you feel as though you have the right to claim a life. If you are trying to save one then by all means do what must be done. IF you think you are god and can take one then thats what I believe is abortion. And That various of abortion should be illegal.
 

The Necromancer

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No. I said in the interest of saving a life abortion isnt really abortion. If a mother wants to live more than her kid than she has the right to protect her self. If she doesnt want to watch her kid not live a life worth suffering she has the right. One is self defense and the other is euthanasia neither are abortion.

Both should be legal. BUT what is abortion is killing your baby because you feel as though you have the right to claim a life. If you are trying to save one then by all means do what must be done. IF you think you are god and can take one then thats what I believe is abortion. And That various of abortion should be illegal.
Ah. Understood.
 

Aim64C

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The logical perspective on abortion?

What's the logical perspective on birth? Why do I have children?

Is it because I am 'dealing with the consequences' of my decisions?

No. It's because I want to see a portion of myself live on in another being. This is both biological and ideological - the children we raise carry with them what knowledge we can pass on to them, what perspective we can grant them, and what ideals they are willing to carry, themselves - along with portions of our DNA.

If someone wants to put an end to that process - what right do I have to stop them?

Am I going to raise their child? Am I going to feed the child, clothe the child, teach the child, and give attention to the child?

Realistically - no. I'm not. I want -my- child.

Now, if I were to meet a child, take a liking to him/her, and find out that he/she is an orphan or otherwise in need of adoption - then, perhaps so (although a single young male adopting a kid is probably going to look odd as hell). But I'm not going to go out there looking for kids to raise from mothers who do not want them or can't take care of them. At least not until I'm old and I'd rather surround myself with kids than cats/dogs.

I don't expect anyone else to do that, either.

Which is why I do not blame people for taking the abortion option. It is regrettable, sure - but I've seen our foster care systems. They are completely overloaded and the idea that government regulation of them 'helps' is a farce. There is as much abuse in them (if not more) as there is under any other system.

Further, from an ideological standpoint; no group of people can be so endowed as to get between medical professionals and their patients/clients. If you want your doctor to give you a robotic arm - there should be no more restriction to that than there is for if you want a fetus removed. Or if you want to make sure your exit from this world is as quick and painless as medical science can determine.

Now - along with that - no government should extort money from the general population and then grant it to doctors for providing various services. At least on a national scale. If a state wants to pay planned parenthood to be an abortion-mill that seems to do anything and everything to convince women to abort - then that is their prerogative. I do not think the nation should have that much power, and I do not believe any government is wise to 'invest' in such spending.

If you leave it up to the private market - you'll see doctors who council their patients on the benefits/risks - who network with adoption agencies - and who also can refer to psychological or behavioral therapy for patterns of behavior (frequent abortions, for example).

It will take care of itself if people just stop trying to use the government to 'fix' it one way or the other. That applies to a lot of things.
 

Yusuke Urameshi

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One can't put everything into black and white like that.

Maybe the mother would die if she gave birth.
Maybe the baby would be born with a fatal and painful condition.
Like that? Like what? I take it you didn't watch any of the video. That irritates me. I was simply sharing this video that I hoped at least one person would watch and gain something from, but I doubt that has happened. People post things with their preconceived notions and are too confident in themselves to expose themselves to something they "already know." People can't take the time to learn something. -__-

I believe he addresses certain situations (which are rarer than people seem to think), such as rape. Rape victims are 1%, or .1% (something incredibly small) of abortions. Building woeful scenarios such as those are simply irrelevant and logically fallible. But who cares about that?
 

Aim64C

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Like that? Like what? I take it you didn't watch any of the video. That irritates me. I was simply sharing this video that I hoped at least one person would watch and gain something from, but I doubt that has happened. People post things with their preconceived notions and are too confident in themselves to expose themselves to something they "already know." People can't take the time to learn something. -__-

I believe he addresses certain situations (which are rarer than people seem to think), such as rape. Rape victims are 1%, or .1% (something incredibly small) of abortions. Building woeful scenarios such as those are simply irrelevant and logically fallible. But who cares about that?
There really isn't anything to discuss.

Either you believe in freedom, or you believe that we are property of 'society.'

There is another place in the Bible where it talks about people being property of a society, where everyone wears the mark and is unable to do commerce without it.

Now, by all means, if you want to tell a woman: "don't have an abortion, I will raise your child" - then, grab a catcher's mitt and be there when it comes out.

Otherwise, there is no logical argument against it.

Unless you want to ban alcohol, cigarettes, cars capable of going faster than highway speed limits, video games, and everything else that could potentially become a 'bio-ethics' issue.

One of his first points is just ridiculous - that there is no difference between a kidney dialysis patient and an unborn fetus.

I happen to work in Dialysis. There is a considerable difference between our patients and unborn fetuses. Our job would be a lot simpler if they were unborn fetuses. They wouldn't complain. They wouldn't need something to entertain them for the 4 hours they are in a chair. We wouldn't be able to talk to them - to ask them how they are doing - how their job is, or how their children are.

Even so - people have the legal right to make the decision to discontinue Dialysis. That is one of the discussions that our nurses and doctors dread - but it happens fairly frequently.

I see a variety of patients come in. A few are younger than me - some genetic flaw or tragic accident left them with reduced kidney function. So long as they take care of themselves - they will survive for decades on Dialysis or until they can get a transplant. The technology of Dialysis is continually progressing and we are only getting better at improving modalities.

On the other hand - there are people who are welfare-riders who are morbidly diabetic with multiple amputations brought about by not taking care of themselves while diabetic. Their outcomes are generally poor - because they don't take care of themselves. These people usually have a heart attack and die (which is why lawsuits are so common in Dialysis).

Other people are just old and their bodies are giving out. These people either just go to sleep and don't wake up or opt to discontinue.

Even so - Dialysis clinics withhold the right to decline service. We have a guy who we set up with a machine in his home because he's pissed off so many clinics and nurses that he's been thrown out of every one of them. Our clinic is the only one that would take him - and even then - it was under the condition that we keep him out of our clinic. From my own experiences with him (I have to go to his house to service his machine and water treatment system) - he's not a bad person. He's just kind of quirky. He's got a PhD (not sure what in - but it's an arts/history type of degree if I am not mistaken) and likes to be called "doctor." Which - in the medical field, you're not a "doctor" unless your PhD is in medicine. Always funny to get a call from someone saying: "I've got orders from a Doctor [person] for [stuff]" - then you have to explain that he's not a medical doctor, can't write his own orders, etc.

That's a long way from a fetus.

But - like I said - it basically boils down to a world view.

Either you're a servant of the beast and believe that you have been given the authority to rule over others.

Or you believe that God has given us free will and we do not have the authority to rule over each other aside from removing those from society who would destroy our society.

How is that for a scriptural argument?
 
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Joe Black

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Bible class and talking about a logical viewpoint on abortion...paradox. When a religion tells you to do something because that is what god wants, no logical arguments are needed anymore. "Abortion is bad"- any further "logical" arguments are nothing but fancy decoration to hide bigotry.

You can't force a woman to give birth. And to use childbirth as a punishment for irresponsibility, is stupid.

As for fostering...Abortion is not a compulsion. It's a choice. A possibility. You don't have to abort the fetus. You can decide to carry it and give birth, and then give the baby to foster. But you can't force others to go through that.

"Why didn't they use protection blah blah"? Why do you care what people do in their beds as long as it doesn't hurt others? "Oh but it does hurt the fetus". - Yeah, a fetus that doesn't have conscience and doesn't feel pain (at least for a few weeks). "It's still a life"- depends on how you define life. It's up to legislation: and it cannot be simplified to a religious moral argument. It's not up to me to decide either: but a ban is just pointless. It'd only increase deliberate miscarriages, illegal abortion, and I presume, even suicides and murder of babies. To decrease unwanted pregnancy, the best way should be education and spreading awareness.

Even if you put restrictions as to what causes can justify abortion, the most reasonable and logical solution is to provide professional circumstances and medic aid: if you deny that from the girl, she may resort to more undesirable means. It's her life. "Oh no it's also the fetus's life, she has no right to take away a life": that again depends on the definition of life, and even then, you don't have the right either to ruin her life. To ruin an actually existing life for one that is not born yet. You can call it murder if you want: it's her conscience, not yours. God will judge her, not you, right?
 

YowYan

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Lets focus on destroying child prostitution networks and help starving/homeless children before we bother meddling with private affairs that do not concern you incthe slightest. 3rd parties driven by dumbass religious values and such should just sit down and not try to infringe on an individual's rights.
 
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Power Bottom

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People always complaining about personal affairs yet they can't complain about real problems.

1.) Education

Too many people in the world don't have a proper education
 

Yusuke Urameshi

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Bible class and talking about a logical viewpoint on abortion...paradox. When a religion tells you to do something because that is what god wants, no logical arguments are needed anymore. "Abortion is bad"- any further "logical" arguments are nothing but fancy decoration to hide bigotry.

You can't force a woman to give birth. And to use childbirth as a punishment for irresponsibility, is stupid.

As for fostering...Abortion is not a compulsion. It's a choice. A possibility. You don't have to abort the fetus. You can decide to carry it and give birth, and then give the baby to foster. But you can't force others to go through that.

"Why didn't they use protection blah blah"? Why do you care what people do in their beds as long as it doesn't hurt others? "Oh but it does hurt the fetus". - Yeah, a fetus that doesn't have conscience and doesn't feel pain (at least for a few weeks). "It's still a life"- depends on how you define life. It's up to legislation: and it cannot be simplified to a religious moral argument. It's not up to me to decide either: but a ban is just pointless. It'd only increase deliberate miscarriages, illegal abortion, and I presume, even suicides and murder of babies. To decrease unwanted pregnancy, the best way should be education and spreading awareness.

Even if you put restrictions as to what causes can justify abortion, the most reasonable and logical solution is to provide professional circumstances and medic aid: if you deny that from the girl, she may resort to more undesirable means. It's her life. "Oh no it's also the fetus's life, she has no right to take away a life": that again depends on the definition of life, and even then, you don't have the right either to ruin her life. To ruin an actually existing life for one that is not born yet. You can call it murder if you want: it's her conscience, not yours. God will judge her, not you, right?
That was the main point of his lecture: What is the unborn? And he gave logical, philosophical, and ethical reasons for his perspective. But of course people discredit anything he says (very possibly without even hearing what he has to say) because he's a Christian or whatnot.

People always complaining about personal affairs yet they can't complain about real problems.

1.) Education

Too many people in the world don't have a proper education
Are you trying to imply something here?
 
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