lee and neji vs jiriaya

[Draegod]

Now now Bogard

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^^At that point Gai just opened the gates and Kakashi is actually fast but below base Gai in terms of speed like Sasuke said

Look at this scan

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Gai got there before Kakashi did

You're welcome! Haha (and note, guy was able to do high speed movements to connect that kick from that angle before kakashi could do basically anything serious)

 

[Haizaki]

You're welcome! Haha (and note, guy was able to do high speed movements to connect that kick from that angle before kakashi could do basically anything serious)

Loool thanks my man...won't have known better if you didn't show me

 

[Bogard]

Wrong guys. There were 6 V2 Jinchurikis. 3 went directly to attack Naruto and Bee when Kakashi and Gai had to handle the other 3. On the panel you show, Gai was still with 1 of the three, when Kakashi already handled one(the one i circled him in red) and was going to the other behind

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Kakashi and 6gated Gai also displayed the same reaction speed

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[Touken]

Bogard, we're given the details of what happened.

-Lee rushed towards Gai once he saw Hirudora [

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].

-We know that he couldn't have been in the blast radius or he would have been killed by Hirudora, so he must have rushed towards Gai after it exploded.

-After Hirudora exploded, Madara immediately sent his Truth-Seeker Orb after Gai [

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][

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].

-So Lee ran after Gai at the same time as Madara sent his Truth-Seeker Orb and on top of that, Lee had more ground to cover because he must have been outside of Hirudora's range while Madara was inside that range. Lee still got to Gai before the Truth-Seeker Orb [

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].

^ Btw, 6G Gai nor Kakashi were going at full speed there. It doesn't fit the context. They were trying to find out which Edo jinchuuriki had which Paths' power, so why would they try to blitz them if Gai and Kakashi wanted them to attack?

 

[Braiyan]

- When did that happened?

When Lee saved Guy from Madara's truthseeking balls, which are faster than Kamui.

Bringing foot speed again?... The strategy i devised for Jiraiya was based on deception, not speed.
Where was his uncounterable speed against the Kisame clone? (

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) (

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) (

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) (

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)

Why are you bringing feats of a Lee not in Gates? And even worse, while he was performing an attack whilst free-falling (meaning he could not increase his speed in any way)?

- What does having his arms sealed has to do with speed? What does regeneration has to do with speed? What does being slashed while she was paralyzed has to do with speed? He got hit twice (

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) (

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). Everytime he got close he got ***** slapped and eventually retreated, how is that not getting pawned?
Does that mean he's slower than her? No. He would win a foot race, but a race isn't the same as a battle.

His arms being sealed deals with how his offense was restricted to mouth swords and biting during that fight. Tsunade's regeneration has to do with how she survived getting slashed up in that fight. If Tsunade did not possess regeneration, she would have died. Speed didn't mean much in that scenario because her regeneration allowed her to survive anything he could dish out at that time, regeneration that Jiraiya does not have.

- And here's the fallacious Naruto argument again... You know why he's still a genin. Lee was in the village the whole time.
I'm talking about base Lee here, the same who got taken out by Kisame, who's definetly slower than J-man according to the author.

And I'm talking about Gated Lee, because he can go into Gates pretty much immediately now, can maintain them for far longer than he could back in Part One, and has no reason not to use Gates against a Sannin.

When was it implied that Kisame is slower than Jiraiya?

- She doesn't have to be as fast as him or outpace him, she only has to keep up.

She needs to be as fast as him in order to stop him from going after Bee and Naruto, which she was not.

- Like a kage couldn't put up a fight against other kage...

Are you trying to tell me Mei can "put up a fight" against Hashirama just because both happen to be kages?

- Regarding Naruto. Yet, he's faster than all of them by a noticeable margin and they all still kept up.

Again, because he was not so much faster than them that their numbers wouldn't matter. Which coincidentally, was what they overwhelmed him with.

- Are you kidding me? Kisame was stunned after Hirudora. He couldn't move! He was focused on capturing Kisame. What was he going to accomplish looking around for a scroll?

A scroll that has sensitive information on the whereabouts of Naruto and Bee and the state of their abilities ... the same guys that Obito was starting a whole war for in an attempt to capture? Yeah, what would Guy accomplish looking around for a scroll like that?

- A blitz would've been perfect, but that's not something that happens easily between S-level shinobi.

A blitz would have been pointless, as the moment Guy landed at Kisame's location the shark already swallowed the scroll, dove into the lake, and Kisame was in the process of calling up water sharks to hide the real shark's location.

- Here is Kisame casually defending himself against Gai (

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).

That is base Guy, first of all. Secondly, Kisame is not a slowpoke. He was able to react against V1 and V2 Bee, both of which have shown comparable speeds to V1 A. It's not surprising that he was able to block Guy's kick, especially right after he rejuvenated himself with Bee's chakra.

- If foot speed solved everything he would've captured Kisame right here (

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Literally the first words out of Guy's mouth are about the scroll, which the shark just swallowed in the first panel. At that moment capturing Kisame became a second priority.

- But that's not what happened, first Kisame forced Gai into using Asakujaku (

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)

Because Guy wasn't sure which shark swallowed the scroll, as he states himself when he says he can't tell which shark he wants.

- Gai never overwhelmed him, Kisame always kept up despite the foot speed difference between them.

Guy countered everything Kisame threw at him, despite Kisame having the advantage of a whole lake, was more focused on getting a scroll than he was with capturing Kisame, countered Kisame's ultimate attack, and rendered him immobile with one attack. How is that not getting overwhelmed?

- He didn't wanted to get the scroll first... He simply wanted the scroll. To obtain it he would have to capture Kisame since he didn't know where the scroll was after multiple sharks were summoned.

He didn't want to get the scroll first, yet he prioritized destroying the sharks and looking for the scroll over capturing Kisame ...

-Where were Lee's gates against Kisame's clone?

He was probably waiting for an opening to use them, just like Neji did with Full Body Blow.

- Lee's attacks become irrelevant the moment Needle Jizo is up, gates or no gates.

What is Jiraiya's offense after he puts up Needle Jizo?
What stops Lee from blitzing him after he inevitably releases the jutsu?
Nothing. Since no one has been able to prove that base Jiraiya has speed anywhere near Kamui.

 

[Haizaki]

Wrong guys. There were 6 V2 Jinchurikis. 3 went directly to attack Naruto and Bee when Kakashi and Gai had to handle the other 3. On the panel you show, Gai was still with 1 of the three, when Kakashi already handled one(the one i circled him in red) and was going to the other behind

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The jin in the red circle was most likely hit by Gai....If you look at your scan, Gai is shown punching but in the next scan, he's throwing a flying kick while Kakashi is still using his raikiri

The green you showed couldn't be Kakashi's attack...he still shown using Raikiri...that was probably cause by the Jin's movement
This scan shows the same and it wasn't caused by Kakashi or Gai

But still I'll give you credit cuz I didn't even think about or see the 3rd one

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Kakashi and 6gated Gai also displayed the same reaction speed

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Not really..

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the jin that kakashi was focused on was the one who attacked both....so we can't really say that's a good way to judge considering Gai was focused on another jin and we didn't see his exact position when kakashi missed

 

[Yocolaw]

It says in the Databook that it's a 6G tech.

No my man one has to have the phicypcal ablitys to program them gates didn't title you to specific techs the users creates them with there phisycal knowlage

 

[Touken]

No my man one has to have the phicypcal ablitys to program them gates didn't title you to specific techs the users creates them with there phisycal knowlage

It's just punches man. Plus, Gai's taught Lee all that he knows.

 

[RicardoA]

When Lee saved Guy from Madara's truthseeking balls, which are faster than Kamui.



Why are you bringing feats of a Lee not in Gates? And even worse, while he was performing an attack whilst free-falling (meaning he could not increase his speed in any way)?




His arms being sealed deals with how his offense was restricted to mouth swords and biting during that fight. Tsunade's regeneration has to do with how she survived getting slashed up in that fight. If Tsunade did not possess regeneration, she would have died. Speed didn't mean much in that scenario because her regeneration allowed her to survive anything he could dish out at that time, regeneration that Jiraiya does not have.



And I'm talking about Gated Lee, because he can go into Gates pretty much immediately now, can maintain them for far longer than he could back in Part One, and has no reason not to use Gates against a Sannin.

When was it implied that Kisame is slower than Jiraiya?




She needs to be as fast as him in order to stop him from going after Bee and Naruto, which she was not.



Are you trying to tell me Mei can "put up a fight" against Hashirama just because both happen to be kages?




Again, because he was not so much faster than them that their numbers wouldn't matter. Which coincidentally, was what they overwhelmed him with.




A scroll that has sensitive information on the whereabouts of Naruto and Bee and the state of their abilities ... the same guys that Obito was starting a whole war for in an attempt to capture? Yeah, what would Guy accomplish looking around for a scroll like that?



A blitz would have been pointless, as the moment Guy landed at Kisame's location the shark already swallowed the scroll, dove into the lake, and Kisame was in the process of calling up water sharks to hide the real shark's location.



That is base Guy, first of all. Secondly, Kisame is not a slowpoke. He was able to react against V1 and V2 Bee, both of which have shown comparable speeds to V1 A. It's not surprising that he was able to block Guy's kick, especially right after he rejuvenated himself with Bee's chakra.



Literally the first words out of Guy's mouth are about the scroll, which the shark just swallowed in the first panel. At that moment capturing Kisame became a second priority.



Because Guy wasn't sure which shark swallowed the scroll, as he states himself when he says he can't tell which shark he wants.



Guy countered everything Kisame threw at him, despite Kisame having the advantage of a whole lake, was more focused on getting a scroll than he was with capturing Kisame, countered Kisame's ultimate attack, and rendered him immobile with one attack. How is that not getting overwhelmed?



He didn't want to get the scroll first, yet he prioritized destroying the sharks and looking for the scroll over capturing Kisame ...



He was probably waiting for an opening to use them, just like Neji did with Full Body Blow.



What is Jiraiya's offense after he puts up Needle Jizo?
What stops Lee from blitzing him after he inevitably releases the jutsu?
Nothing. Since no one has been able to prove that base Jiraiya has speed anywhere near Kamui.

- Because Lee isn't going gates on Jiraiya before he uses Needle Jizo.
That's even worse, imagine him free falling on Jiraiya. It'll be like a turkey entering the oven.

- You didn't get anything from the point i made. That fight goes to show that even though Orochimaru is faster, Tsunade still kept up perfectly and out traded him. Just like Jiraiya will keep up and trade with Lee (possibly in gates as well since its possible as Kisame showed us).

- He could've gone gates the whole time... He didn't pulled them off against an Akatsuki member, why would he do it against an S-level who's around the same level?
Kisame is slower on foot than Jiraiya though, check the stats.

- Just because you can't conceive the thought of her holding him off, doesn't mean she isn't capable of doing so. Its pretty much implied she would've taken care of it, at least by her confidence.

- This is almost as fallacious as Naruto being a genin... Hashirama is off the charts, you know that as well. The difference in combat prowess between Jiraiya and Lee isn't nearly that great. If anything Jiraiya would be the 'Hashirama' in this fight.

- I presume you're talking about the Jinchuuriki only? He is much faster than them though. He was the fastest shinobi alive, and neither of the Jinchuuriki were noted for their speed. Goes to show once again that speed can be bypassed with other factors.
If Jiraiya decides to, he can fight with numbers as well (Shadow Clones).

- You missed my point again. He didn't know where the scroll was, Kisame was the one who hid and sent the scroll away, capturing Kisame was his only option left if he wanted to retrieve anything.
He said it himself: "I won't let you get away". Kisame was the priority in order for him to reach his objective (the scroll).

- You think he did that with foot speed only? Base Gai speed > Kisame's speed (check the stats).
His reactions and sharpness were on point, that's how he kept up and traded with Bee and Gai. With skill, not speed, he ain't a speedster.
This is a blatant example of how other factors influence the outcome of a battle. I dunno what you want more ._.

- He would've been eaten if he didn't go for them all. Kisame was putting up a fight.

- Kisame could have the whole ocean on his side. He was countered by the nature of Gai's attack, not overwhelmed by his speed, which is what this debate is all about.

- What else was he supposed to do? Check each shark and give Kisame a 'glass' of chakra? He simply defended himself and went for the origin of his problems atm. With Kisame captured he would've got the scroll and info on Akatsuki.

- Except Jiraiya wouldn't capture him in a water bubble... he would roast him.

- Whatever else he can use. He can still move himself inside all that hair you know.
Lee ain't blitzing an S-level the same way he didn't blitz Kisame (who's also S-level and wasn't even looking when he captured Lee). Nagato needed the whole 6POP to overwhelm Jiraiya, the same 6POP who were manhandling an entire village and kept up with SM Naruto (even caught him at a point).
Because Lee will reach that level speed before he falls for Jiraiya's experience and skill o>o

 

[Bogard]

Bogard, we're given the details of what happened.

-Lee rushed towards Gai once he saw Hirudora [

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].

-We know that he couldn't have been in the blast radius or he would have been killed by Hirudora, so he must have rushed towards Gai after it exploded.

-After Hirudora exploded, Madara immediately sent his Truth-Seeker Orb after Gai [

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][

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].

-So Lee ran after Gai at the same time as Madara sent his Truth-Seeker Orb and on top of that, Lee had more ground to cover because he must have been outside of Hirudora's range while Madara was inside that range. Lee still got to Gai before the Truth-Seeker Orb [

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].

^ Btw, 6G Gai nor Kakashi were going at full speed there. It doesn't fit the context. They were trying to find out which Edo jinchuuriki had which Paths' power, so why would they try to blitz them if Gai and Kakashi wanted them to attack?

The Hirudora explosion stopped here(bottom left panel):

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We see Gai on the floor here(upper right panel):

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Between those 2 panels, Lee had time to rush in even before Madara who on the upper left panel going backwards.

Besides, after the moment when Madara actually throwed the truth-seeker orb, Minato had time to throw his kunai in Kakashi's direction(with his mouth) while formulating the plan, Kakashi grab it and throw it in Gai's direction and both the kunai and the truth seeker orbs appeared to reach at around the same time when Minato's group was actually farther than Madara.

During the meantime where

1- Minato throwed the kunai
2- Formulated the plan
3- Kakashi grabbed
4- Kakashi throwed it from a farther distance(still reached at the same time as the orbs)

Either of them could have easily bodily dodged something travelling within that interval. So it would mean Minato and Kakashi are actually much physically faster than them

I guess the truth seeker orbs are just kunais travelling-like of speed(actually slower considering they were farther) and Kakashi is physically faster than them as well

I could as well give the base Naruto example when he saved Sakura against Sasuke's kunai(that was an inch close to Sakura's head) when he was nowhere to be seen on the entire panel, and i can give plenty of other examples

Those are the main reasons why off-panels and interceptions feats should always be disregarded and i honestly don't understand people who try to count them as feats

 

[Touken]

The Hirudora explosion stopped here(bottom left panel):

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We see Gai on the floor here(upper right panel):

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Between those 2 panels, Lee had time to rush in even before Madara who on the upper left panel going backwards.

Besides, after the moment when Madara actually throwed the truth-seeker orb, Minato had time to throw his kunai in Kakashi's direction(with his mouth) while formulating the plan, Kakashi grab it and throw it in Gai's direction and both the kunai and the truth seeker orbs appeared to reach at around the same time when Minato's group was actually farther than Madara.

During the meantime where

1- Minato throwed the kunai
2- Formulated the plan
3- Kakashi grabbed
4- Kakashi throwed it from a farther distance(still reached at the same time as the orbs)

Either of them could have easily bodily dodged something travelling within that interval. So it would mean Minato and Kakashi are actually much physically faster than them

I guess the truth seeker orbs are just kunais travelling-like of speed(actually slower considering they were farther) and Kakashi is physically faster than them as well

I could as well give the base Naruto example when he saved Sakura against Sasuke's kunai(that was an inch close to Sakura's head) when he was nowhere to be seen on the entire panel, and i can give plenty of other examples

Those are the main reasons why off-panels and interceptions feats should always be disregarded and i honestly don't understand people who try to count them as feats

@bold, except that we don't know when Naruto started moving and where he was when he started moving, so stop bringing this up.

The first 2 panels of page 15 shows what was happening in the bottom 2 panels of page 14. You're saying that the explosion occurred and then Madara went skidding backwards which makes no sense at all. As soon as the explosion happened, Madara went skidding backwards, there was no delayed reaction between the explosion happening and Madara going backwards. Lee still had to activate 5G and then rush towards Gai.

-Kunai have been shown to be thrown at high speeds. SM Minato threw his kunai at Madara's feet and that kunai traveled faster than the time it took for Obito to take 2 steps. Kakashi has notable strength feats.

-There was no formulation of a plan. Doesn't take a damn genius to realize you have to do something as simple as Minato suggested to save a team mate.

-You're grossly overestimating the time it took for Kakashi to grab the kunai and throw it.

-Kakashi throws kunai physically faster than those Truth-Seeker Orbs travel.

-Was established a chapter ago that Madara's Truth-Seeker Orbs are faster than Kamui teleportation.

 

[lelerskates]

LOL! Jiraiya low diff.

Lee isn't blitzing him. STFU fanboys.

@bold, except that we don't know when Naruto started moving and where he was when he started moving, so stop bringing this up.

The first 2 panels of page 15 shows what was happening in the bottom 2 panels of page 14. You're saying that the explosion occurred and then Madara went skidding backwards which makes no sense at all. As soon as the explosion happened, Madara went skidding backwards, there was no delayed reaction between the explosion happening and Madara going backwards. Lee still had to activate 5G and then rush towards Gai.

-Kunai have been shown to be thrown at high speeds. SM Minato threw his kunai at Madara's feet and that kunai traveled faster than the time it took for Obito to take 2 steps. Kakashi has notable strength feats.

-There was no formulation of a plan. Doesn't take a damn genius to realize you have to do something as simple as Minato suggested to save a team mate.

-You're grossly overestimating the time it took for Kakashi to grab the kunai and throw it.

-Kakashi throws kunai physically faster than those Truth-Seeker Orbs travel.

-Was established a chapter ago that Madara's Truth-Seeker Orbs are faster than Kamui teleportation.

Awwww how cute! A Lee fanboy! You fav and Neji get soloed by Jiraiya low diff. U mad brah?

 

[paratise]

LOL! Jiraiya low diff.

Lee isn't blitzing him. STFU fanboys.



Awwww how cute! A Lee fanboy! You fav and Neji get soloed by Jiraiya low diff. U mad brah?

You seem mad...

 

[lelerskates]

You seem mad...

No. Just annoyed that people think a sannin with legendary strength is going to lose to Lee in 6 gates. The sheer amount of stupidity is beyond comprehension and you know I'm right.

 

[paratise]

No. Just annoyed that people think a sannin with legendary strength is going to lose to Lee in 6 gates. The sheer amount of stupidity is beyond comprehension and you know I'm right.

No i don't.

Because if this was a Jiraiya vs Gai thread with same restrictions for J-man people would say Gai stomps but appearantly Lee with 6th gate along with Neji get utterly stomped for no reason other than fighting a Sannin.

 

[Haizaki]

LOL! Jiraiya low diff.

Lee isn't blitzing him. STFU fanboys.



Awwww how cute! A Lee fanboy! You fav and Neji get soloed by Jiraiya low diff. U mad brah?

Says the same guy who said this..loool

Minato's speed isn't actually speed. It's instant teleportation. Which means Gai isn't keeping up with it. Minato wins any scenario. Even 8th gate Gai has a hard time beating Minato. 7th gate Gai doesn't stand a chance.

 

[Touken]

Awwww how cute! A Lee fanboy! You fav and Neji get soloed by Jiraiya low diff. U mad brah?

I'm cute?

stop u r makin me hard

 

[Bogard]

@bold, except that we don't know when Naruto started moving and where he was when he started moving, so stop bringing this up.

The first 2 panels of page 15 shows what was happening in the bottom 2 panels of page 14. You're saying that the explosion occurred and then Madara went skidding backwards which makes no sense at all. As soon as the explosion happened, Madara went skidding backwards, there was no delayed reaction between the explosion happening and Madara going backwards. Lee still had to activate 5G and then rush towards Gai.

-Kunai have been shown to be thrown at high speeds. SM Minato threw his kunai at Madara's feet and that kunai traveled faster than the time it took for Obito to take 2 steps. Kakashi has notable strength feats.

-There was no formulation of a plan. Doesn't take a damn genius to realize you have to do something as simple as Minato suggested to save a team mate.

-You're grossly overestimating the time it took for Kakashi to grab the kunai and throw it.

-Kakashi throws kunai physically faster than those Truth-Seeker Orbs travel.

-Was established a chapter ago that Madara's Truth-Seeker Orbs are faster than Kamui teleportation.

I overrated nothing when i gave no timeline between the actions. I was only representing the different steps. You're the one creating a timeline out of nowhere here when it wasn't my intent at all

And you're not understanding as well. I'm not saying Lee jumped inside the explosion or whatever. It stopped here(bottom left panel):

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Look closely at the bottom left panel and you'll realise the wind calmed down between up and down

Lee could have jumped in right after this moment. You have no idea where Lee was during that off-panel. You have no idea whether or not Lee was in gates or not. You have no idea of what Lee was exactly doing during that off-panel. That's why you're overrating that feat. Something off-panel is off-panel. You can't use them to accurately judge, but whatever we have different optics, so i don't think we will ever agree on this

 

[Touken]

I overrated nothing when i gave no timeline between the actions. I was only representing the different steps. You're the one creating a timeline out of nowhere here when it wasn't my intent at all

And you're not understanding as well. I'm not saying Lee jumped inside the explosion or whatever. It stopped here(bottom left panel):

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Look closely at the bottom left panel and you'll realise the wind calmed down between up and down

Lee could have jumped in right after this moment. You have no idea where Lee was during that off-panel. You have no idea whether or not Lee was in gates or not. You have no idea of what Lee was exactly doing during that off-panel. That's why you're overrating that feat. Something off-panel is off-panel. You can't use them to accurately judge, but whatever we have different optics, so i don't think we will ever agree on this

You didn't need to represent those steps because they were hardly steps at all. Listing more steps gives off the impression that it took longer than it actually did.

And I'm saying that in the top panels of page 14 and the bottom panel of page 13, the timeline is running synchronously. If Lee jumped in at that exact moment then he jumped in at the same time as Madara throwing his Orb.

He has no reason to be in Gates at that time. He only hurried because Gai used Hirudora and so Lee knew something serious was happening, which is why he opened Gates exactly after Gai used Hirudora. These inferences are pretty clear from what we've been given in that chapter. We know exactly what he was doing off-panel, he clearly explains everything in page 17.

OK, we'll leave this be then.

Tim, don't give me that look man. You spend all your time in that pairings thread now, so you can't judge.

 

[Optimistic]

Tim, don't give me that look man. You spend all your time in that pairings thread now, so you can't judge.

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ot: Can go either way.