Lee and Guy are not hard workers. They're unnatural workers.

thepizzaguy

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Madara was born an UCHIHA with lotso potential. Lee was just a normal kid who came from not even being able to use ninjutsu. Also madara was incarnation of INDRA. Gai is just himself
 

chaos control

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Sasuke was born talented, with sharingan
Madara was born genius, high chakra + sharingan
Naruto was born with Strong chakra, and given kyuubi which is the strongest tailed beast.

Lee & Gai, aren't born talented, nor their bloodlimist is anything special, and yet Gai just wrecked Madara which happened to bu Juubi host+rinnegan+Mokton

stop bashing on them, they are truely hardworkers.

Yet he has to die to do it. That is an automatic fail even if he were to take out Madara.
 

Moe22

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You do realise that their sense of success is different right?

Objective defines success, not sheer outcome.

Lee did not want to solo NV. He wanted to be great ninja, and he became one as even Hashirama defined a good ninja as someone "who endures to achieve his goals".

Gai's father told him that "the real victory is not beating someone, it is protecting something dear". And he is protecting something dear to him instead of sitting on his ass to not cost his life.

Lee could not defeat Neji and he died. His main goal was getting acknowledged by Neji, he is not a violent or blood lusted person.

Lee could not beat Gaara. But he protected his ninja way, what is precious to him.

Could not beat Kimimaro. ****in hell give the guy a break he got out of hospital and fighting Orochimaru's prized vessel. Also he protected his friend, Naruto. So again, he protected something precious.

Bear in mind that Neji, Gaara, Kimimaro were strongest people of that generation at that time. Giving them a fight or getting acknowledged as opponents is better than beating someone weak like Tenten or Hinata.

Same with Gai, the guy have beaten an Akatsuki ffs. Fought jinchuuriku, made counter for sharingan, mastered weapons, taijutsu, kinjutsu. Right now, he can stand up against Juubi's jin, something many people can't do anything even at the cost at their own lives.


You simply define a character by win or loss as what the board says. Too bad Kishi made characters and objectives deeper than your 3rd grade understanding. Nice Orochimaru bashing as always btw.
You alway make wall of texts on how others complain, compare etc. while all you do is bickering on what people think.
Get the hell over with it.

Lee was simply neglected in part II. But I get where your coming from. I think the OP is not bashing Lee or Guy, he's jut pointing out that they're getting credit for being the hardworkers when people like Madara worked hard as well.
 

assface3

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OP is right. The only thing that Madara was possibly given was EMS. He either earned or took everything else he has through either years of prep, or through a to-the-death fight with a nature God.

People are bashing him because they hate that he has been so successful compared to constant failures like Orochimaru (and this is coming from the guy who wouldn't mind if Orochimaru has an ulterior motive and becomes the final villain or something), and will make up any bs to make him look spoon-fed like Naruto and Sasuke.
 

chaos control

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You do realise that their sense of success is different right?

Objective defines success, not sheer outcome.

Lee did not want to solo NV. He wanted to be great ninja, and he became one as even Hashirama defined a good ninja as someone "who endures to achieve his goals".

Gai's father told him that "the real victory is not beating someone, it is protecting something dear". And he is protecting something dear to him instead of sitting on his ass to not cost his life.

Lee could not defeat Neji and he died. His main goal was getting acknowledged by Neji, he is not a violent or blood lusted person.

Lee could not beat Gaara. But he protected his ninja way, what is precious to him.

Could not beat Kimimaro. ****in hell give the guy a break he got out of hospital and fighting Orochimaru's prized vessel. Also he protected his friend, Naruto. So again, he protected something precious.

Bear in mind that Neji, Gaara, Kimimaro were strongest people of that generation at that time. Giving them a fight or getting acknowledged as opponents is better than beating someone weak like Tenten or Hinata.

Same with Gai, the guy have beaten an Akatsuki ffs. Fought jinchuuriku, made counter for sharingan, mastered weapons, taijutsu, kinjutsu. Right now, he can stand up against Juubi's jin, something many people can't do anything even at the cost at their own lives.


You simply define a character by win or loss as what the board says. Too bad Kishi made characters and objectives deeper than your 3rd grade understanding. Nice Orochimaru bashing as always btw.
You alway make wall of texts on how others complain, compare etc. while all you do is bickering on what people think.
Get the hell over with it.

one's ninjas way is something abstract. Think about it like this: If you die while trying to protect your family, it doesn't matter how you stood for your ninjas way. Your family is still in danger at the end of the day because you couldn't get the job done.
 

Sageflash

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There is a lot of truth in this. Just because one is born with advantages like Naruto's vitality and huge chakra, Sasuke/Madara's Sharingan, etc doesn't mean they aren't hard workers too.

Naruto trains harder than anyone and he does more efficiently utilizing his gifts. Same with Sasuke, he trains using the advantages gained by his Sharingan. They are simply more dimensional than Lee, who was garbage at everything with 0 gifts and solely worked hard. Why people fault Naruto and Sasuke for working harder AND smarter is beyond me. That's just handicapping yourself otherwise.
 

Moe22

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Madara was born an UCHIHA with lotso potential. Lee was just a normal kid who came from not even being able to use ninjutsu. Also madara was incarnation of INDRA. Gai is just himself

Because he's an Uchiha?! How many Uchiha fodders were killed by Itachi? Not all Uchiha have potential lol
 

Dark Magician

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There is a lot of truth in this. Just because one is born with advantages like Naruto's vitality and huge chakra, Sasuke/Madara's Sharingan, etc doesn't mean they aren't hard workers too.

Naruto trains harder than anyone and he does more efficiently utilizing his gifts. Same with Sasuke, he trains using the advantages gained by his Sharingan. They are simply more dimensional than Lee, who was garbage at everything with 0 gifts and solely worked hard. Why people fault Naruto and Sasuke for working harder AND smarter is beyond me. That's just handicapping yourself otherwise.

They get free powerups for plot. Sasuke is the worst.
 

Tobi98

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There is a lot of truth in this. Just because one is born with advantages like Naruto's vitality and huge chakra, Sasuke/Madara's Sharingan, etc doesn't mean they aren't hard workers too.

Naruto trains harder than anyone and he does more efficiently utilizing his gifts. Same with Sasuke, he trains using the advantages gained by his Sharingan. They are simply more dimensional than Lee, who was garbage at everything with 0 gifts and solely worked hard. Why people fault Naruto and Sasuke for working harder AND smarter is beyond me. That's just handicapping yourself otherwise.
Huh no... Kishi himself said that the hardest workers are Lee, Guy and Tobirama
 

paratise

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one's ninjas way is something abstract. Think about it like this: If you die while trying to protect your family, it doesn't matter how you stood for your ninjas way. Your family is still in danger at the end of the day because you couldn't get the job done.
It is better than being a pansy and not doing anything while your family is getting killed.
Ninja way is abstract but clearly matters in NV. It is something that is regarded highly. Getting the job done is protecting their ninja way.

Also not being vistorius makes them (mainly Lee as he has more loss) human characters. I prefer human characters over the ones who solo, yolo, whatever you say.
 

thepizzaguy

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Because he's an Uchiha?! How many Uchiha fodders were killed by Itachi? Not all Uchiha have potential lol
That's why I ssaid with lotso potential. He was freaking incarnation of indra, the god of uchiha. Besides that I was just stating that gai was not born with an advantage or kekei genkai or bijuu. He started off as an ordinary guy
 

Vegeto30294

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one's ninjas way is something abstract. Think about it like this: If you die while trying to protect your family, it doesn't matter how you stood for your ninjas way. Your family is still in danger at the end of the day because you couldn't get the job done.

With that logic, Naruto is a failure because people in this war still died, despite him saying he'll protect everyone. And Guy is throwing his life away for nothing because Madara will survive the onslaught and Guy won't.
 

chaos control

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It is better than being a pansy and not doing anything while your family is getting killed.
Ninja way is abstract but clearly matters in NV. It is something that is regarded highly. Getting the job done is protecting their ninja way.

Also not being vistorius makes them (mainly Lee as he has more loss) human characters. I prefer human characters over the ones who solo, yolo, whatever you say.

Solo, yolo?

Anyway, it is respectable for you to like human characters. Everyone has their own preferences, so that is fine. The thing I just don't like is the constant bashing of powerful characters and success. You have no idea how much I see it. It is always "a pull this" and "power sucks" that! It just really gets annoying. I don't know about anyone else, but I came from a home where my parents taught me to do my best to achieve in life. That is why I find success to be a lot more interesting than failure. Life is already bad enough because of the fact that we are all unfortuneately imperfect humans! Fiction however gives me a chance to escape this stupid reality for a few minutes and witness the epic successes that are people like Uchiha Madara!
 

chaos control

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With that logic, Naruto is a failure because people in this war still died, despite him saying he'll protect everyone. And Guy is throwing his life away for nothing because Madara will survive the onslaught and Guy won't.

I am not saying that they are failures, but they are in fact failing in these cases.
 

Melania

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Solo, yolo?

Anyway, it is respectable for you to like human characters. Everyone has their own preferences, so that is fine. The thing I just don't like is the constant bashing of powerful characters and success. You have no idea how much I see it. It is always "a pull this" and "power sucks" that! It just really gets annoying. I don't know about anyone else, but I came from a home where my parents taught me to do my best to achieve in life. That is why I find success to be a lot more interesting than failure. Life is already bad enough because of the fact that we are all unfortuneately imperfect humans! Fiction however gives me a chance to escape this stupid reality for a few minutes and witness the epic successes that are people like Uchiha Madara!

Funny you say that. I deal with the opposite. I always see my fav characters bashed for being weak and OP characters being praised.
 

Madara Uzumaki Uchiha

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The difference between Madara, Sasuke, Naruto, Hashirama and Guy and Lee isnot that one side works hard and the other are strong because of natural genius/ destiny.

- there is a huge difference between working smart vs working hard.

Using shadow clones, studying under a Sanin, learning about the sage, are all "smart" forms of hard work. Whole Guy and Lee throw punches and kicks all day. It's deliberate practice vs pure repetition.

Usually, successful people don't work harder-/ they work smarter.
 

Shadow Phantasm

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Sakura (that one's too obvious), Guy, Lee, Itachi, Neji (who people call fodder) and I guess the only OP one I like is Madara.

Peopl call Neji fodder?He's one of the best characters of K11.
 
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