Kisame vs Jiraiya 4real

[kadowade]

I bolded one of your statements because that was a point I wanted to discuss. I wasn't talking about the jutsu, I was talking about Jiraiya's aura or chakra. Remember when Pretta path was absorbing Naruto's chakra through contact, I was stating that Samehada couldn't absorb the nature energy around him not the actual jutsu. Also for that matter unless Kisame is merged with Samehada, Jiraiya can attack Kisame where he can't block with Samehada, meaning that since he's faster in SM allowing him to use such attacks like Giant Rasengan on Kisame's blind spot to hit him before Samehada has a chance to attack. Now with the merging of Samehada I believe that, the technique is only useful underwater, meaning I don't think that he can fight on land with himself merged with Samehada (I can't recall if he did or not, my memory is bad so if I'm wrong correct me) meaning if Jiraiya traps him in genjutsu before that he's done. I'm also unsure of the whole Samehada breaking genjutsu. It's alive and concious yes but the fact is the conciousness of the blade itself isn't that high enough to comprehend how to break a genjutsu. What I'm saying it's not smart enough, take the Hachibi for example. It is a concious creature with mind enough to understand a genjutsu and release Bee from it. Sakura and Chiyo released Naruto from the genjutsu when he was trapped. Although this is just an assumption, I only came up with the assumption based on what I saw. Genjutsu was described as a technique that attacks the mind through precise chakra and it takes knowledge on how to cast and defend against it. Jiraiya had problems breaking genjutsu and he's a Sannin and highly intelligent. I just don't think Samehada has the intelligence to break a genjutsu like certain summons (Enma, Toads, etc...) I could be wrong though.

Samehada can Be Dumb as a rock, And he can still get Kisame out of Genjutus because, To escape a Genjutusu, You have to recieve chakra from a diffrent source so that it can Disrupt the chakra flow to the victims brain. So all samehada has to do his Give kisame Chakra, And Kisames free. Just like how sasuke and chiyo got NAruto out, they both gave chakra to naruto to disrupt the chakra from his nervous system, and brain. But if its a Genjutsu like Tsukiyomi which alters time in the user's own world, Since its only a second in reality, Nothing would have time to escape the victim. But the only person that would be able to do that is Itachi, since he alters Time and Preception in his own illusive world, where his imagination is like your reality.
(Sasukes Tsukiyomi dosent do that)
So kisame should be able to escape Jiraiyas Gnjtsu

 

[kadowade]

Im sorry mr Itachi fanboi

Did you ever think Itachi didn't fight him because he wanted to die by sasukes hands and not by Jmans?

But no i guess Itachi fanboi's never think of that huh:shrug:

Kisame even said him self He might be a match for the number 1 of the leaf and one of the mist's seven strongest, Kisame knew of Jmans strength so what itachi said didn't dettered kisame.

All of the sannin's strengths are well know though the ninja world


And that was the first time itachi had met naruto, He had no plans for naruto at that point in time as far as we know, He grew to trust naruto in shippuden

Dude he didnt want to lose anymore vision fighting someone who wasent even of importance to him, plus that wouldve started a war, AKATSUKI fighting a Sanin in the Leaf Village. Everybody wouldve prepared to help out and that would've resulted in multiple casualties. Get it Now U_U He even stated it. watch the ep

 

[Reborn]

Samehada can Be Dumb as a rock, And he can still get Kisame out of Genjutus because, To escape a Genjutusu, You have to recieve chakra from a diffrent source so that it can Disrupt the chakra flow to the victims brain. So all samehada has to do his Give kisame Chakra, And Kisames free. Just like how sasuke and chiyo got NAruto out, they both gave chakra to naruto to disrupt the chakra from his nervous system, and brain. But if its a Genjutsu like Tsukiyomi which alters time in the user's own world, Since its only a second in reality, Nothing would have time to escape the victim. But the only person that would be able to do that is Itachi, since he alters Time and Preception in his own illusive world, where his imagination is like your reality.
(Sasukes Tsukiyomi dosent do that)
So kisame should be able to escape Jiraiyas Gnjtsu

Alright I'll give, however there are still the other advantages Jiraiya has over Kisame (read my other post). Genjutsu was just an option.

I still say Jiraiya

 

[vergil18]

I bolded one of your statements because that was a point I wanted to discuss. I wasn't talking about the jutsu, I was talking about Jiraiya's aura or chakra. Remember when Pretta path was absorbing Naruto's chakra through contact, I was stating that Samehada couldn't absorb the nature energy around him not the actual jutsu. Also for that matter unless Kisame is merged with Samehada, Jiraiya can attack Kisame where he can't block with Samehada, meaning that since he's faster in SM allowing him to use such attacks like Giant Rasengan on Kisame's blind spot to hit him before Samehada has a chance to attack. Now with the merging of Samehada I believe that, the technique is only useful underwater, meaning I don't think that he can fight on land with himself merged with Samehada (I can't recall if he did or not, my memory is bad so if I'm wrong correct me) meaning if Jiraiya traps him in genjutsu before that he's done. I'm also unsure of the whole Samehada breaking genjutsu. It's alive and concious yes but the fact is the conciousness of the blade itself isn't that high enough to comprehend how to break a genjutsu. What I'm saying it's not smart enough, take the Hachibi for example. It is a concious creature with mind enough to understand a genjutsu and release Bee from it. Sakura and Chiyo released Naruto from the genjutsu when he was trapped. Although this is just an assumption, I only came up with the assumption based on what I saw. Genjutsu was described as a technique that attacks the mind through precise chakra and it takes knowledge on how to cast and defend against it. Jiraiya had problems breaking genjutsu and he's a Sannin and highly intelligent. I just don't think Samehada has the intelligence to break a genjutsu like certain summons (Enma, Toads, etc...) I could be wrong though.

as for the reasons of breaking the genjutso, they are mainly to the capability of kisame and samehada tranfering chakra onto one another. the chakra "transfer" sould be enough to breack the genjutso...should.. and I only think that jiraiya had problems with genjutso because like naruto (and he himself stated) he wasen't very skilled in genjutso, just knew the basics to breack it, and kisame being itachi's partner could of known a thing or two.

as for jiraiyas chakra or aura, since to torne into stone, one has to have more than 1/3 of sage chakra inside to disrupt the balance bettwen the 3 parts(Yin,Yang,Senj = Body,Mind,Nature) once kisame began to absorb his sage aura, since his 2 chakras (Yin,Yang = Body,Mind) are probabily much greater than jiraiyas (already divide into 3 parts with the nature energy) he would have to absorb completly all of jiraiya's sage energy, and (if jiraiya had already spent sage energy) he would not even become a toad stone... he would not only be absorving the sage chakra but also the other 2 chakras, keeping the 2-3 chakra ratio unbalanced... resuming, he would never have more than 1/3 sage chakra inside him to turn into stone

 

[Reborn]

as for the reasons of breaking the genjutso, they are mainly to the capability of kisame and samehada tranfering chakra onto one another. the chakra "transfer" sould be enough to breack the genjutso...should.. and I only think that jiraiya had problems with genjutso because like naruto (and he himself stated) he wasen't very skilled in genjutso, just knew the basics to breack it, and kisame being itachi's partner could of known a thing or two.

as for jiraiyas chakra or aura, since to torne into stone, one has to have more than 1/3 of sage chakra inside to disrupt the balance bettwen the 3 parts(Yin,Yang,Senj = Body,Mind,Nature) once kisame began to absorb his sage aura, since his 2 chakras (Yin,Yang = Body,Mind) are probabily much greater than jiraiyas (already divide into 3 parts with the nature energy) he would have to absorb completly all of jiraiya's sage energy, and (if jiraiya had already spent sage energy) he would not even become a toad stone... he would not only be absorving the sage chakra but also the other 2 chakras, keeping the 2-3 chakra ratio unbalanced... resuming, he would never have more than 1/3 sage chakra inside him to turn into stone

First paragraph already conceaded to the genjutsu

Second paragraph: I'm not too clear on what you're saying but from what I think I get I'll respond. The aura around Jiraiya is purly nature energy. When focusing nature energy into his body he's not excerting any of his natural yinyang chakra out but drawing in Nature energy from the outside which increases his reserves. Plus the fact that he's not even the one transfering the nature energy himself but Ma and Pa are, because you have to be still to channel the energy into body. They merge with him (just as Kisame to Samehada only not as extream) and they gather the nature energy into his body acting as a medium. As he does that the energy around him is flowing into him. Also the fact that Kisame isn't himself drawing in the chakra but Samehada, Sameahade runs the risk of turning to stone having no real ballence or circulation of chakra. Once Samehada is gone then Kisame looses the ability to absorb chakra.

I think from what you said that you're saying that Kisame's chakra is greater so the amount of 1/3 the chakra is greater for him meaning that he could abosorb handle more without turning to stone? If that's what you're saying then I say that the nature energy is ever increasing. It's infininte (in terms of the energy within the atmosphere) and the essence itself is greater. What I'm saying is that he's not only absorbing what Jiraiya has already gained but the space around it, which could be greater and also the fact stands that Jiraiya has amazing chakra and it could be safely said that his chakra isn't much further then Kisame's. Kisame's added chakra reserves come from what Samehada absorbs and gives to him, which in this case won't be very helpful to him.

Correct me if I missunderstood your statement.

 

[vergil18]

First paragraph already conceaded to the genjutsu

Second paragraph: I'm not too clear on what you're saying but from what I think I get I'll respond. The aura around Jiraiya is purly nature energy. When focusing nature energy into his body he's not excerting any of his natural yinyang chakra out but drawing in Nature energy from the outside which increases his reserves. Plus the fact that he's not even the one transfering the nature energy himself but Ma and Pa are, because you have to be still to channel the energy into body. They merge with him (just as Kisame to Samehada only not as extream) and they gather the nature energy into his body acting as a medium. As he does that the energy around him is flowing into him. Also the fact that Kisame isn't himself drawing in the chakra but Samehada, Sameahade runs the risk of turning to stone having no real ballence or circulation of chakra. Once Samehada is gone then Kisame looses the ability to absorb chakra.

I think from what you said that you're saying that Kisame's chakra is greater so the amount of 1/3 the chakra is greater for him meaning that he could abosorb handle more without turning to stone? If that's what you're saying then I say that the nature energy is ever increasing. It's infininte (in terms of the energy within the atmosphere) and the essence itself is greater. What I'm saying is that he's not only absorbing what Jiraiya has already gained but the space around it, which could be greater and also the fact stands that Jiraiya has amazing chakra and it could be safely said that his chakra isn't much further then Kisame's. Kisame's added chakra reserves come from what Samehada absorbs and gives to him, which in this case won't be very helpful to him.

Correct me if I missunderstood your statement.

you understood perfectly... the bolded point of the everincresing nature energy is the proof that my idea could backfire (depending on how much chakra samehada could suck at once, like 6 tails for example)... but i prefer to consder the absorbing part optional since samehada doesn't absorb chakra lika a ravage lunatic and so far (as stated above) it only sucked biju cloacks.. as for Ma and Pa I prefer to think that kisame would definitly try to attack 2 sitting ducks to stop sage mode (even with jiraiya batling him, because we can't compare not even in hell, pain's bodies with kisame's power) ... plus the water dome and samehada fusion to me are a one-hit knock-out move garantee..

it's tough defending your opinion right?
but healthy and exercising for the brain

 

[Urda]

Draw, Both seem to be skilled. Kisame's Samehada (Sharkskin) would strike Ma and Pa that would leave no choose but for Jiraiya to release the SM Jutsu and if Samehada (Sharkskin) do absorb Jiraiya in SM, it would possibly turn into stone. In the long-run the two would be face-to-face, all blooded up, just wondering who is going to fall.

 

[666]

Kisame is truly the most underrated character in the series

The guy at 30% forced Gai to go 6 Gate, and let's not forget Samehada can absorb chakra and give it to him

IMO it depends where they fight at though

If it's in the Land of Waves or near a large pool of water, Kisame wins

If their is little to no water, Jiraiya wins!!!

 

[kadowade]

Kisame creates his own water like he did when he fought bee

 

[Reborn]

you understood perfectly... the bolded point of the everincresing nature energy is the proof that my idea could backfire (depending on how much chakra samehada could suck at once, like 6 tails for example)... but i prefer to consder the absorbing part optional since samehada doesn't absorb chakra lika a ravage lunatic and so far (as stated above) it only sucked biju cloacks.. as for Ma and Pa I prefer to think that kisame would definitly try to attack 2 sitting ducks to stop sage mode (even with jiraiya batling him, because we can't compare not even in hell, pain's bodies with kisame's power) ... plus the water dome and samehada fusion to me are a one-hit knock-out move garantee..

it's tough defending your opinion right?
but healthy and exercising for the brain

Statements of focus in bold (asside from your ones but I'll get to thoses aswell)

1) The fact of how much chakra Samehada can absorb is rather irrelivent. You said so yourself that if the ballence of yinyang (mind/body) chakra is greater then 1/3 the body turns to stone. Samehada (as far as we know) is only a weapon that has no chakra circulatory (spelling) system meaning that the slightest amount of nature energy is going to put it off ballence turning it into stone
2) Samehada doesn't decide what it absorbs, it is an automatic affect upon contact with chakra, meaning the moment Kisame swings in an area of energy or chakra it will be absorbed
3) When Kisame made the members of Taka wait outside while Sasuke went fo fight Itachi. Suigetsu's smug behind decied to pick a fight with Kisame (I can't tell if they were trying to kill each other or just sparing I mean they kind of seemed friendly with each other idk anyway). When Samehada made contact with Suigetsu, he turned into water and tried to counter but a moment later he said he felt a considerable decrease in his chakra after Kisame struck him, showing that he indeed absorbed Suigetsu's chakra
4) Ma and Pa are hardly ducks (they're toads can't you tell lolxdxd) no but for real they are merged with Jiraiya meaning the move with him and they have free mobility to attack, meaning that they can still preform jutsu to defend themselves. Not to mention that to take them out he'd need to be precise. As shown it doesn't look like Kisame has any other smaller weapons to attack them with or have we seen his aim to aim them at him. Regardless so long as they're merged they're just as fast as Jirayia (it's like in a car you move as fast as the car is moving while you're inside)

To you're points about the waterdome thing. I agree that it could be a one-hit knock out however with Jiraiya's amphibian like features (mainly his hands, feet, and limbs) he has a great chance of fighting under water at considerable speed. Also the leg power of frogs and toads are strong. A leap could land him out of the barrier (notice I said could, not saying it's a definate only a possibility) and if that happens, on land Jiraiya could run from the dome.

Also are you saying it's hard to argue for Jiraiya or just hard to argue either side in general?

 

[666]

People are overrating J-Man, his Genjutsu is useless, his Offensive abilities are useless, he's basically a sitting duck when Kisame brings out the pool and fuses with Samehada.

Let's be real here niggas, Kisame has Bijou level chakra and made the perfect Jinchuriki Killer B look like an amateur, and pushed Gai to 6 Gate, with a fake body only using 30% chakra.

 

[kadowade]

People are overrating J-Man, his Genjutsu is useless, his Offensive abilities are useless, he's basically a sitting duck when Kisame brings out the pool and fuses with Samehada.

Let's be real here niggas, Kisame has Bijou level chakra and made the perfect Jinchuriki Killer B look like an amateur, and pushed Gai to 6 Gate, with a fake body only using 30% chakra.

Exactly, But Jiraiya's No Slouch

 

[vergil18]

Statements of focus in bold (asside from your ones but I'll get to thoses aswell)

1) The fact of how much chakra Samehada can absorb is rather irrelivent. You said so yourself that if the ballence of yinyang (mind/body) chakra is greater then 1/3 the body turns to stone. Samehada (as far as we know) is only a weapon that has no chakra circulatory (spelling) system meaning that the slightest amount of nature energy is going to put it off ballence turning it into stone
2) Samehada doesn't decide what it absorbs, it is an automatic affect upon contact with chakra, meaning the moment Kisame swings in an area of energy or chakra it will be absorbed
3) When Kisame made the members of Taka wait outside while Sasuke went fo fight Itachi. Suigetsu's smug behind decied to pick a fight with Kisame (I can't tell if they were trying to kill each other or just sparing I mean they kind of seemed friendly with each other idk anyway). When Samehada made contact with Suigetsu, he turned into water and tried to counter but a moment later he said he felt a considerable decrease in his chakra after Kisame struck him, showing that he indeed absorbed Suigetsu's chakra
4) Ma and Pa are hardly ducks (they're toads can't you tell lolxdxd) no but for real they are merged with Jiraiya meaning the move with him and they have free mobility to attack, meaning that they can still preform jutsu to defend themselves. Not to mention that to take them out he'd need to be precise. As shown it doesn't look like Kisame has any other smaller weapons to attack them with or have we seen his aim to aim them at him. Regardless so long as they're merged they're just as fast as Jirayia (it's like in a car you move as fast as the car is moving while you're inside)

To you're points about the waterdome thing. I agree that it could be a one-hit knock out however with Jiraiya's amphibian like features (mainly his hands, feet, and limbs) he has a great chance of fighting under water at considerable speed. Also the leg power of frogs and toads are strong. A leap could land him out of the barrier (notice I said could, not saying it's a definate only a possibility) and if that happens, on land Jiraiya could run from the dome.

Also are you saying it's hard to argue for Jiraiya or just hard to argue either side in general?

first 4 points. totally correct.. only kishi could decide better i guess those are now dead topics and possibilities

as for the rest...

about the jump, no matter how far(considering the dome's radius) or how high the jump, it's pretty much shown that kisame's control over the dome(possibily it's shape, since he moves it like a shield) could counter that amphibian trait and lead jiraiya into drowning. supposing

it's hard to argue both sides really!!! I had to think really hard to make this thread.. not easy coming up with 2 guy's with fair"equal" shoot's at winning with a great fight...

 

[Reborn]

first 4 points. totally correct.. only kishi could decide better i guess those are now dead topics and possibilities

as for the rest...

about the jump, no matter how far(considering the dome's radius) or how high the jump, it's pretty much shown that kisame's control over the dome(possibily it's shape, since he moves it like a shield) could counter that amphibian trait and lead jiraiya into drowning. supposing

it's hard to argue both sides really!!! I had to think really hard to make this thread.. not easy coming up with 2 guy's with fair"equal" shoot's at winning with a great fight...

Well I don't know the radius of the dome (I can't remember if it was stated. I can't recall how far a distance upwards or if it's not a complete circle or like an oval how wide so idk). As for the shield thing I don't think that's a possibility as the amphibian trait is a result of an imperfect sage mode meaning that it's a result of the chakra. Since KB was still in v2 mode he had all his chakra the dome didn't deflect the chakra so nature energy wouldn't be affected as well.

You're right it is difficult I wish we could see more of Tobirama's abilites as a shinobi so a thread like this could be made Tobirama vs. Kisame the two ultimate water jutsu users. Tobirama would have the other abilities he said but right now we can only go by what has been seen by a weaker Edo summon and hype so that wouldn't bee a great thread.

Oh and I did manage to +rep you

 

[-Kizaru-]

Jiraya is just simply amazing and he has ma and pa

 

[thenarutoking]

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i cant believe people actually say jiraiya can win this one. their speed is the same. if not kisame is a bit faster until jiraiya uses sm. kisame and sm are probably the same strength. we dont know if samaheda can absorb sage chakra or not. ima say he can.but if he cant kisame still wins. kisame can fly in his waterdome. where ever he swims the waterdome follows right? so if he swims up it will follow up. it never said he couldnt. also. he is definetley faster than jiraya under water. toads cant breathe under water. he can drown jiraya. any move jiraya uses will result in a failure. kisame can just heal himself using absorbed chakra from samaheda. any move jiraya does use will have the chakra sucked out of it resulting in a fruit with no punch.samaheda can absorb the chakra sent off by genjutsu so genjutsu wont work on kisame. also samaheda could just wake him up but he wont have to. after reading this if u say jiraya still wins then ur one of those people who think jiraya can beat so6p and you know nothing

 

[kadowade]

lmao