Okay. Because I have multiple thesis on the subject of how the objects Nagato controls are not alive besides the fact that it has already been confirmed that they are not alive and their chakra paths are only active because Nagato fuels them. He literally controls the entire theme of it. They may have blood, they might have organs, but they simply don’t work like a living creature (or summon) does. Also confirmed. The summons don’t even have contracts. Nagato takes them like someone takes booty in jail. Snatched. The only reason ”they“ operate as such as to not be destroyed beyond repair because Nagato finding a suitable replacement is harder than just outsmarting his opponents and beating them like he knows he is capable of.
Aside from that, with the fact that Kisame is heavily nerfed and the centipede being considered “alive”, I still do not see how Kisame would deal with its sheer size and raw power. He cannot sap the chakra, I am not an expert on Sameheda so I am not sure what it’s capabilities are as far as it’s non-sentient form (assuming its sentient form is banned). However, if we allow Kisame’s pseudo-beast form which I don’t think we are considering it going by what Itachi would accept in his village, I think it would be a more decent battle considering his raw strength in that form. He also has some streamlined techs that aren’t village-busters but lethal nonetheless.
Actually, the defeat of the paths and summons do have them behaving like normal summons with living bodies, even if that is clearly not the case. Consider how Divine Path was defeated by R.G. as a normal person would be. If it was like a puppet, then Nagato could have continued with its limbs intact.
The repair arguement implies a practical defeat, imo. Like, the stipulations of the thread itself. If any path would be beaten beyond repair, that's as good as being defeated by his normal choice.
As for replacements, he has a storage unit of them, based on Summoning Path. So i think that may be a more sentimental link to Jiraiya. It doesn't apply to his animals, though.
The shark form is allowed, but a huge water construct is restricted. I think Itachi would be okay with a small pool up to the size of the centipede itself. You?
Actually, the defeat of the paths and summons do have them behaving like normal summons with living bodies, even if that is clearly not the case. Consider how Divine Path was defeated by R.G. as a normal person would be. If it was like a puppet, then Nagato could have continued with its limbs intact.
The repair arguement implies a practical defeat, imo. Like, the stipulations of the thread itself. If any path would be beaten beyond repair, that's as good as being defeated by his normal choice.
As for replacements, he has a storage unit of them, based on Summoning Path. So i think that may be a more sentimental link to Jiraiya. It doesn't apply to his animals, though.
The shark form is allowed, but a huge water construct is restricted. I think Itachi would be okay with a small pool up to the size of the centipede itself. You?
Understandable and yes I think that is quite acceptable.
I think with those elements involved it would be a lot more possible for Kisame to take the dub. So I would like to speak on this in a more specific manner since we got the basics and circumstances out of the way. Sorry for making it more difficult than it should have been. Just thought what I have been saying should have been mentioned.
Highly doubt it for several reasons. I will stick to the premise of the GC being a base animal path summon. Kisame is already nerfed, we cannot start adding unconfirmed possibilities to the GC. I already proved how it would beat Kisame easily with my earlier arguments and that is why I have been accepting further nerfs to the GC for the sake of a better MU lol.
Understandable and yes I think that is quite acceptable.
I think with those elements involved it would be a lot more possible for Kisame to take the dub. So I would like to speak on this in a more specific manner since we got the basics and circumstances out of the way. Sorry for making it more difficult than it should have been. Just thought what I have been saying should have been mentioned.
Highly doubt it for several reasons. I will stick to the premise of the GC being a base animal path summon. Kisame is already nerfed, we cannot start adding unconfirmed possibilities to the GC. I already proved how it would beat Kisame easily with my earlier arguments and that is why I have been accepting further nerfs to the GC for the sake of a better MU lol.
Understandable and yes I think that is quite acceptable.
I think with those elements involved it would be a lot more possible for Kisame to take the dub. So I would like to speak on this in a more specific manner since we got the basics and circumstances out of the way. Sorry for making it more difficult than it should have been. Just thought what I have been saying should have been mentioned.
Alive, adheres to physical manipulation, cannot be repaired/re-summoned, will fight until dead or disabled through physical means or chakra rod manipulation.
What we have seen from the GC is it’s sheer raw power. It is 100% a village buster and we can assume it’s raw strength adheres to its size. It has pincers which I am sure has cutting and crushing potential and it also posses a pair rinnegan. Now while Nagato uses his abilities to split the Rinnegans powers into categories with the paths, safe to assume also the summon cannot/won’t use all of its given abilities. These rules were never broken but I am sure it at least has the base ocular abilities such as seeing chakra flow, it should be able to perform any basic element but since it wasn’t shown I will not add that unless you guys want to spice it up then we can count that. The most notable things the GC has is raw strength, size and the ability to see chakra paths.
Kisame:
We already know his physical strength, especially in shark form is exceptional. That is on his side against this massive creature. Skilled in bukijutsu. He cannot use village busting techniques and he cannot sap chakra. In shark form he has increased speed and durability as well. Expert suiton user as well.
From this, I think it is safe to say that Kisame has enough physical prowess and CQC to do damage to the GC. We have seen him go toe to toe with Asuma and Guy. Both CQC specialists. He has broken out of Mokuton jutsu and has smacked away boss summons. I will not go into depth with these because they aren’t worth going into depth on its mentionable for what it is worth.
Also, the GC has a hard shell and although I am sure Kisame can break this, he has to not get squished by it first. The GC needs one flop to end Kisame’s life. The reason I have not mentioned any of his water techniques yet is because I don’t believe him focusing his chakra to perform any sort of water tech will be able to perform before the GC is able to smother him. They have no prep time and the GC is long enough to where distance does matter. He covers mid to long range easily. I don’t think Kisame is smart enough with no intel to figure out the chakra receptor is powering the GC so I am personally going to disregard that happening. Samehada has cut through many things but one thing I am sure it cannot cut through is the shell of the GC. I think it is better of used as the wrapped blunt version that the open scale version. And this is regardless of Kisame’s strength, I am pretty sure it’s blunt form is the best for this battle. However I don’t think the sword would even necessarily get used as a weapon as it is more beneficial for Kisame‘s shark form.
Kisame has to move quicker than the GC can one shot him with being squished to absolute death. I think given what we have seen from Kisame’s water prowess that it is safe to say he can create a giant lake with quite ease and at a rapid pace although not as quickly as needed. I think ANY of Kisame’s water shark techniques is capable of harming the GC. I think a thousand feeding sharks is well capable of harming the GC but the GC would have to be completely submerged. My question is: how will he be able to sustain this jutsu while using his physical prowess to drown the GC into the sharks. I don’t believe Kisame has the physical prowess to drown the giant centipede alone as it is simply too massive to yeehaw/yeet into a body of water. Any body of water also has to be proportionate enough as to not be considered village busting as well so Kisame has little to work with in terms of ninjutsu/suiton usage.
I think Kisame has speed to move around the GC but for how long can he maintain this before he gets tired? Because even if the GC adheres to a living being’s standards, there are several reasons why Kisame would “tire” first and probably way sooner.
Kisame has to figure this out before either A: being squashed which is my primary thought of victory.
B: Getting pincered to death and on a side note you also have to consider that if the GC can indeed see chakra paths, can the GC pincer those out/off/closed? That would leave Kisame completely neutralized.
I still give this as a hard dub to the centipede. I don’t think Kisame can physical beat it’s ass enough to incapacitate it nor can he sustain a streamed technique while physically trying to drown it. I also think Kisame would ware before it as well. I don’t think any of this would go Kisame’s way. At all.
@Infant I would love to hear your thoughts if you were leaning more towards Kisame winning. None of what I am saying is definite, a little bit of speculation at that but I think I provided some pretty solid points.
Now while Nagato uses his abilities to split the Rinnegans powers into categories with the paths, safe to assume also the summon cannot/won’t use all of its given abilities. These rules were never broken but I am sure it at least has the base ocular abilities such as seeing chakra flow, it should be able to perform any basic element but since it wasn’t shown I will not add that unless you guys want to spice it up then we can count that. The most notable things the GC has is raw strength, size and the ability to see chakra paths.
Does it necessarily apply here? I ask because there is a fallacious assumption which falsely equates different qualities based on pevels that only apply in their own groups. Basically apples and oranges, where people assume that the sweetest apple is somewhat equal to the sweetest orange because both are 'the sweetest' . . .
So Kisame is definitely an expert in water style and the centipede is definitely an expert in . . . whatever, probably tough skin. But unless their respective expertise are made with each other in mind, there is nothing to say that one category cannot totally defeat another despite both expressions of said qualities being at a high (or similar) level within their groups.
The assumption, as with most fallacies, is very natural. In this case, We judge with our senses which, being part of us, all have levels relative directly to us. So naturally, something like the loudest sound (we can hear) will have a similar strain/stress level on us as the brightest light (we can see).
However, things like water style mastery and the GC defence are not relative to us, so they don't have to have levels which correspond go each other.
From this, I think it is safe to say that Kisame has enough physical prowess and CQC to do damage to the GC. We have seen him go toe to toe with Asuma and Guy. Both CQC specialists. He has broken out of Mokuton jutsu and has smacked away boss summons
I actully agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.
Those other characters don't matter much unless they can be scaled to the GC (nice abbreviation there).
I don't think Ponta scales to a boss summon (although he should be strong) since even a basic frog (Gama) matched Kisame in strength. Boss summons are logically many times more powerful than a summon that is literally named for its species.
As you yourself noted, the GC tore buildings apart. Concrete buildings / wooden bindings many times over, never mind the difficulty with which each party took care of their targets, as well as the quality of said targets.
I myself think Kisame can do it because of his swords own qualities.
don’t think Kisame is smart enough with no intel to figure out the chakra receptor is powering the GC so I am personally going to disregard that happening
I think he did quite well against a Killer B he had little intel on. Perhaps that was more instinct or talent than traditional intelligence, but it worked to the same effect, no?
would love to hear your thoughts if you were leaning more towards Kisame winning. None of what I am saying is definite, a little bit of speculation at that but I think I provided some pretty solid points
Indeed. I especially liked your hammer vs hard armour thinking.
Well, i don't think the GC would ever mould CE, so i think Kisame won't gain much from his absorption powers. The speed of the thing will force some defence from the Akatsuki, but some trickery can land upper cut blows, maybe even winning shots.
Otherwise, I'm still thinking about it. See, i so far found two major reasons for making threads. One is when there is something i think is good to bring up, the other is to hear from others. The first is to express my opinion, the second is to enhance it.
Of course, they are not an exclusive dichotomy, or even a dichotomy. So there's a bit of both, and other factors, in any thread, with some having more prominence than others. In this thread, it was more to enhance my understanding.
I was basically trying to do a 'what if the summon was a normal summon' type of thread. So go with your assumptions.
We do?
In shark form specifically, what strength showings does he have?
Are you counting moving the Water Dome as a strength achievement?
Compared to who/what version of himself?
I think its just that others aren't as fast as him in water. Think of Michael Phelps vs Usain Bolt
A comparative quality, fundamentally.
Does it necessarily apply here? I ask because there is a fallacious assumption which falsely equates different qualities based on pevels that only apply in their own groups. Basically apples and oranges, where people assume that the sweetest apple is somewhat equal to the sweetest orange because both are 'the sweetest' . . .
So Kisame is definitely an expert in water style and the centipede is definitely an expert in . . . whatever, probably tough skin. But unless their respective expertise are made with each other in mind, there is nothing to say that one category cannot totally defeat another despite both expressions of said qualities being at a high (or similar) level within their groups.
The assumption, as with most fallacies, is very natural. In this case, We judge with our senses which, being part of us, all have levels relative directly to us. So naturally, something like the loudest sound (we can hear) will have a similar strain/stress level on us as the brightest light (we can see).
However, things like water style mastery and the GC defence are not relative to us, so they don't have to have levels which correspond go each other.
I actully agree with your conclusion, but not your reasoning.
Those other characters don't matter much unless they can be scaled to the GC (nice abbreviation there).
I don't think Ponta scales to a boss summon (although he should be strong) since even a basic frog (Gama) matched Kisame in strength. Boss summons are logically many times more powerful than a summon that is literally named for its species.
As you yourself noted, the GC tore buildings apart. Concrete buildings / wooden bindings many times over, never mind the difficulty with which each party took care of their targets, as well as the quality of said targets.
I myself think Kisame can do it because of his swords own qualities.
I think his Water Prison can easily keep it out, especially since the GC doesn't really have concentrated direct strikes (or does it?)
I think he can also deflect its hard shells with his sword or energy charge flickers.
Hmm?
I think he did quite well against a Killer B he had little intel on. Perhaps that was more instinct or talent than traditional intelligence, but it worked to the same effect, no?
Indeed. I especially liked your hammer vs hard armour thinking.
Well, i don't think the GC would ever mould CE, so i think Kisame won't gain much from his absorption powers. The speed of the thing will force some defence from the Akatsuki, but some trickery can land upper cut blows, maybe even winning shots.
Otherwise, I'm still thinking about it. See, i so far found two major reasons for making threads. One is when there is something i think is good to bring up, the other is to hear from others. The first is to express my opinion, the second is to enhance it.
Of course, they are not an exclusive dichotomy, or even a dichotomy. So there's a bit of both, and other factors, in any thread, with some having more prominence than others. In this thread, it was more to enhance my understanding.
Post automatically merged:
If the seven tailed beast has wings which count as tails, shouldn't the spikes of the shari blade count?
