Kisame vs Giant Centipede

[Infant]

Kisame, restricted to small powers as when he was in the Hidden Leaf with Itachi
The Centipede, which was defeated by Sakura

Nagato is controlling the centipede, but it will fight to the death. The location is a desert, all other conditions fair

 

[minamoto]

u mean giant centipide from 1pm????..

 

[Infant]

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[Uverdore9]

Kisame wins.

The centipede would drown sooner or later inevitably in water dome.

 

[Infant]

Kisame wins.

The centipede would drown sooner or later inevitably in water dome.

Kisame, restricted to small powers as when he was in the Hidden Leaf with Itachi
The Centipede, which was defeated by Sakura

First 'Moto doesn't know which centipede I'm talking about - on top of assuming its from an entirely different story in the Naruto section - and now 'Dore mentions restricted moves . . .

We doin that thing where we intentionally misunderstand a thread?

Big moves restricted, as per the blue. Basically, only powers you think Itachi would've been happy with in his own village.

Otherwise, would the physiology of a centipede even allow it to drown? Could it not swim to the top or bottom (and underground) to escape the pool?

 

[Uverdore9]

First 'Moto doesn't know which centipede I'm talking about - on top of assuming its from an entirely different story in the Naruto section - and now 'Dore mentions restricted moves . . .

We doin that thing where we intentionally misunderstand a thread?

Big moves restricted, as per the blue. Basically, only powers you think Itachi would've been happy with in his own village.

Otherwise, would the physiology of a centipede even allow it to drown? Could it not swim to the top or bottom (and underground) to escape the pool?

I'll give you the last point however it's implied that the centipede has chakra implying it could be significantly weakened by chakra absorbtion. Gyuki's 6 tails chakras vial is a pretty significant amount and the guy sapped it in a millisecond implying that the centipede is likely defeated at start battle.

 

[Infant]

I'll give you the last point however it's implied that the centipede has chakra implying it could be significantly weakened by chakra absorbtion. Gyuki's 6 tails chakras vial is a pretty significant amount and the guy sapped it in a millisecond implying that the centipede is likely defeated at start battle.

What if it doesn't mould chakra energy?

Gyuki is literal chakra, the centipede is not.

 

[Uverdore9]

What if it doesn't mould chakra energy?

Gyuki is literal chakra, the centipede is not.

Chakras exist in every living organism. It's closely tied to life (Kakashi approached death when he is significantly low on chakra) implying that life can't exist or disseminate as it pertains to fighting artillery like employed by shinobi without the aid of chakra. Nagato virtually chakra controls the centipede with chakra filling the rods spreading through it's organs that supports the balance of life, stabilizing it. Gyuki is contained of chakra that simulates biological properties which cannot be chakra absorbed like centipede, but it possesses chakra in the form of pure energy emanating throughout it's physique (which is what Kisame absorbed in V2 Bee) implying that the exact same applies in the centipede case.

 

[Infant]

Chakras exist in every living organism. It's closely tied to life (Kakashi approached death when he is significantly low on chakra) implying that life can't exist or disseminate as it pertains to fighting artillery like employed by shinobi without the aid of chakra. Nagato virtually chakra controls the centipede with chakra filling the rods spreading through it's organs that supports the balance of life, stabilizing it. Gyuki is contained of chakra that simulates biological properties which cannot be chakra absorbed like centipede, but it possesses chakra in the form of pure energy emanating throughout it's physique (which is what Kisame absorbed in V2 Bee) implying that the exact same applies in the centipede case.

Perhaps, but someone being made of it will suffer worse than someone who simply possesses it.

Closely tied = not the exact same thing, therefore losing it doesnt necessitate losing life itself.

Okay, for the thread, let us say Kisame won't directly absorb the chakra from Nagato.

 

[Uverdore9]

Perhaps, but someone being made of it will suffer worse than someone who simply possesses it.

Closely tied = not the exact same thing, therefore losing it doesnt necessitate losing life itself.

Okay, for the thread, let us say Kisame won't directly absorb the chakra from Nagato.

I can agree with that however we've to account for the fact that Gyuki isn't comprised of chakra he has it. I mean, it doesn't make sense that chakra can become flesh, a physical matter. It's better to rationalize it as it containing chakra which is different to being comprised of it.

You've a point there, although I'm pretty sure that he could vertically split the centipede with a slash, even Ponta a gargantan summon is implied to be susceptible to it's slashes.

Alright.

 

[Troi]

I have nothing of real value to add to this debate. But just fyi I don’t think the centipede will/can drown as it is already dead. All of which Nagato controls is dead. The centipede will not be able to die by any ordinary method and being that in this MU, Kisame is dumb nerfed, I think the ceni would win hands down.

 

[minamoto]

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...

 

[Uverdore9]

I have nothing of real value to add to this debate. But just fyi I don’t think the centipede will/can drown as it is already dead. All of which Nagato controls is dead. The centipede will not be able to die by any ordinary method and being that in this MU, Kisame is dumb nerfed, I think the ceni would win hands down.

The Rinnegan's power is centralized around life based abilities, like Rinne Tensei and the fact that a path is exemplified to have blood implies that it's likely alive. Shouldn't it's blade slashes be powerful enough to trounce the summon? It has features of besting summon comparable to the centipede in size.

 

[Troi]

The Rinnegan's power is centralized around life based abilities, like Rinne Tensei and the fact that a path is exemplified to have blood implies that it's likely alive. Shouldn't it's blade slashes be powerful enough to trounce the summon? It has features of besting summon comparable to the centipede in size.

While you may be right about Samehada (?), the centipede is simply and factually not alive. And Pain’s summons work a little bit differently so I’m not sure if hurting them a little will immediately dispel them like a regular summon. Even if it did, he can bring it right back technically. Again, normal summons can die. Pain’s summons can’t. The vessel’s body has to be beyond repair for him to have to find a new one and beyond repair is subjective since he could technically repair anything to his liking.
It’s akin to prep time but with repairing bodies. With that being said, the things are immortal. Even if he sliced it completely apart it could possibly remain on the field operating with half its body so long as the chakra rods exist in it which would come down to IQ. So any techs the GC might have stemming from its mouth are still subject to usage.

It’s a tough call. Me being a fan of Nagato doesn’t help either lol. He’s my #1.

 

[Infant]

I can agree with that however we've to account for the fact that Gyuki isn't comprised of chakra he has it. I mean, it doesn't make sense that chakra can become flesh, a physical matter. It's better to rationalize it as it containing chakra which is different to being comprised of it.

You've a point there, although I'm pretty sure that he could vertically split the centipede with a slash, even Ponta a gargantan summon is implied to be susceptible to it's slashes.

Alright.

Well, we are directly told that he is c.e.

Remember when @minamoto said we should account for this being fiction? I think it applies here. The world of Naruto can have living beings composed of whatever the authors decide. If we don't get it, that's our problem.

The centipede is composed of hard shells that not even Sakura could crack. Same Sakura that could crack the Hiruko Shell! Meanwhile, Kisame simply wrestled the bear, he did not even inflict physical wounds.

I have nothing of real value to add to this debate. But just fyi I don’t think the centipede will/can drown as it is already dead. All of which Nagato controls is dead. The centipede will not be able to die by any ordinary method and being that in this MU, Kisame is dumb nerfed, I think the ceni would win hands down.

First of all, don't downplay yourself. There are scientific reasons/proof for anyone with an opinion/perspective being valuable.

Otherwise, i think they are still restricted to living functions, as we saw it go down when Sakura punched it despite giving no physical damage to its body structure.

It may be questionable how far this goes, but there is definitely some living-ness to them.

New Rules:
Summoning it back time after time is not allowed

 

[minamoto]

giant centipade is strong summoning...but giant centipede with rinnegan is just very stronger..

 

[Troi]

Well, we are directly told that he is c.e.

Remember when @minamoto said we should account for this being fiction? I think it applies here. The world of Naruto can have living beings composed of whatever the authors decide. If we don't get it, that's our problem.

The centipede is composed of hard shells that not even Sakura could crack. Same Sakura that could crack the Hiruko Shell! Meanwhile, Kisame simply wrestled the bear, he did not even inflict physical wounds.



First of all, don't downplay yourself. There are scientific reasons/proof for anyone with an opinion/perspective being valuable.

Otherwise, i think they are still restricted to living functions, as we saw it go down when Sakura punched it despite giving no physical damage to its body structure.

It may be questionable how far this goes, but there is definitely some living-ness to them.

New Rules:
Summoning it back time after time is not allowed

Understandable.

Moving on, as I said, it’s dead. A controlled zombie, if you will. It went down not because of pain or physical harm but because it’s still a physical object and subject to the rules of different matter. So I am not sure how that would suffice for defeating it. The only way to truly defeat it is to remove its chakra receptor. Or as mentioned earlier, chakra sap it and have it affect/disrupt Nagato but I believe earlier you said that isn’t allowed so I’m not sure how this is winnable with no intel/IQ to start. Kisame is powerful, but not necessarily on the smarter side I reckon. Just a powerful shinobi. With that being said as I mentioned earlier, you could most likely chop off its head and it can still remain on the field able to perform jutsu from its mouth and that is by no means a reach.

 

[Uverdore9]

While you may be right about Samehada (?), the centipede is simply and factually not alive. And Pain’s summons work a little bit differently so I’m not sure if hurting them a little will immediately dispel them like a regular summon. Even if it did, he can bring it right back technically. Again, normal summons can die. Pain’s summons can’t. The vessel’s body has to be beyond repair for him to have to find a new one and beyond repair is subjective since he could technically repair anything to his liking.

It’s akin to prep time but with repairing bodies. With that being said, the things are immortal. Even if he sliced it completely apart it could possibly remain on the field operating with half its body so long as the chakra rods exist in it which would come down to IQ. So any techs the GC might have stemming from its mouth are still subject to usage.

It’s a tough call. Me being a fan of Nagato doesn’t help either lol. He’s my #1.

The narrative exemplifies that the Pain summons are alive, though. I mean, Asura Path is displayed to exude blood (Kakashi's Raikiri) implying it possesses an advanced intricately designed biological system which implies that it could die of blood loss, severe damage to internal organs, splitting of the arteries and veins. The term used to reference thier revival is revitalization instead of repair implying life. They are composed of organic tissue enriched with chakra through the rods. The fact that they have to utilize hand seals (ie., molding chakra requires concious effort supplied by the chakra circulatory pathways) implies that they possess an intricate chakra pathway system. It might not instantly dispel but that boils down to the properties of the offense involved. Kisame states that his blade cuts things to

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implying it conflates with the definition of an ordinary knife like exemplified in the scan which implies that it can reduce the centipede to significantly smaller parts with rapid fire successive slashes.

If he has to resummon it, the creature has to be in definite congruent shape (fit for battle simulations) which is impossible seeing as it would be divided into ribbons. If he tries to repair it'd consume a significant amount of time, implying that it'd be practically useless as it's an autowin due to BFR. Although he can technically repair it's virtually impossible to gauge the amount of time the process would consume.

I don't think that they are immortal tbf. The whole reason why they were hyped like immortals were explicitly due to the fact that they had this whole secret behind thier function ie., get killed, get revived or repair damage acquired and blindside the opponent who believes they won the battle. They aren't literally immortal, although they possess pseudo-immortality like Kakuzu and Hidan.

How would it biologically operate though, having it's body parts cut to ribbons? There is the additional risk of having it's chakra sapped which likely weakens or exhausts it significantly. It doesn't have any technique that could be streamed from the mouth if I recall.

Well, we are directly told that he is c.e.

Remember when @minamoto said we should account for this being fiction? I think it applies here. The world of Naruto can have living beings composed of whatever the authors decide. If we don't get it, that's our problem.

The centipede is composed of hard shells that not even Sakura could crack. Same Sakura that could crack the Hiruko Shell! Meanwhile, Kisame simply wrestled the bear, he did not even inflict physical wounds.

If we presume it's composed of chakra wouldn't that implicate that characters with chakra absorption would effectively circumvent it's physique? I mean, if Samehada absorbed six tails chakra worth that implicates that it would've partly erased a bijuu if not completely (6-1) if it had been in close proximity, implying that Samehada is suddenly a bijuu subjugater which directly contradicts it's portrayal and features. We have no explicit evidence on whether sapping a literal manifested bijuu is possible. It hasn't been implied or exemplified.

Sakura possesses significantly superior physical power compared to Samehada however I see it more of as a battle of offensive attrition (ie., the centipede can only block a limited number of ribbon cutting slashes while Kisame has the features that alludes to him being capable of avoiding the centipede's assaults physically while dealing assaults concurrently.) that definitely wears out the summon. The blade is pretty durable - it tanked Killer Bee's V2 Lariat partially implying that likely translates to it's offensive power in some way shape or form. It lacking any notable offensive features implies it wouldn't put Kisame down indefinitely.

 

[Infant]

Understandable.

Moving on, as I said, it’s dead. A controlled zombie, if you will. It went down not because of pain or physical harm but because it’s still a physical object and subject to the rules of different matter. So I am not sure how that would suffice for defeating it. The only way to truly defeat it is to remove its chakra receptor. Or as mentioned earlier, chakra sap it and have it affect/disrupt Nagato but I believe earlier you said that isn’t allowed so I’m not sure how this is winnable with no intel/IQ to start. Kisame is powerful, but not necessarily on the smarter side I reckon. Just a powerful shinobi. With that being said as I mentioned earlier, you could most likely chop off its head and it can still remain on the field able to perform jutsu from its mouth and that is by no means a reach.

-"I have nothing to add"
-proceeds to bring up the biggest issue in the thread

Hmm . . .

Unless you would argue that story telling purposes dictated events, i think we can take cue from the story. Whenever anyone fought the summons, they behaved just like living creatures. The ox, for example, disappeared after Jiraiya smacked it with his NE punches. You would expect the same from a normal living ox, to be defeated by a super punch.

So lets go with a mentality of "what if the centipede was a living centipede, just cobtrolled by Nagato".

we presume it's composed of chakra wouldn't that implicate that characters with chakra absorption would effectively circumvent it's physique? I mean, if Samehada absorbed six tails chakra worth that implicates that it would've partly erased a bijuu if not completely (6-1) if it had been in close proximity, implying that Samehada is suddenly a bijuu subjugater which directly contradicts it's portrayal and features. We have no explicit evidence on whether sapping a literal manifested bijuu is possible. It hasn't been implied or exemplified.

Sakura possesses significantly superior physical power compared to Samehada however I see it more of as a battle of offensive attrition (ie., the centipede can only block a limited number of ribbon cutting slashes while Kisame has the features that alludes to him being capable of avoiding the centipede's assaults physically while dealing assaults concurrently.) that definitely wears out the summon. The blade is pretty durable - it tanked Killer Bee's V2 Lariat partially implying that likely translates to it's offensive power in some way shape or form. It lacking any notable offensive features implies it wouldn't put Kisame down indefinitely.

So?

Portrayal that you speak of is far too subjective to override confirmed rules, imo

Besides that itself covers its own needs. You said it absorbed six tails, and then proceeded to compare it to a full tailed beast. So your issue with a full beast is covered by the absorption limit.

As for proof of energy composition, tailed beasts being creatures which can reappear after being killed . . . mortal flesh cant do that.

For the sake of thoroughness, also consider how Gyuki himself literally ran away from Kisame in his shark blade form. Likewise, the Divine Path went out of its way to avoid even a single touch from Hinata with her Lion Fists, despite what should have been multiple levels of difference in combat ability and speed.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2021

AHH, I GOT IT!

Consider: what makes the centipede worth having? What is the defining quality of it? That isthe unique qualities and powers of it.

So a fight whence Nagato relies on it is because of its unique qualities. So if the fight reaches a point whence Kisame is no longer fighting the centipede but is mostly fighting the energy receptor rods as they move around, then the centipede has lost. At least, in principle.

So the centipede must remain the centipede. Its value in this fight must be in its unique forms. The fight must not reach a point whence Nagato may as well be using any other animal or just a bunch of scales and legs.

YEAH

 

[Troi]

-"I have nothing to add"
-proceeds to bring up the biggest issue in the thread

Hmm . . .

Unless you would argue that story telling purposes dictated events, i think we can take cue from the story. Whenever anyone fought the summons, they behaved just like living creatures. The ox, for example, disappeared after Jiraiya smacked it with his NE punches. You would expect the same from a normal living ox, to be defeated by a super punch.

So lets go with a mentality of "what if the centipede was a living centipede, just cobtrolled by Nagato".



So?

Portrayal that you speak of is far too subjective to override confirmed rules, imo

Besides that itself covers its own needs. You said it absorbed six tails, and then proceeded to compare it to a full tailed beast. So your issue with a full beast is covered by the absorption limit.

As for proof of energy composition, tailed beasts being creatures which can reappear after being killed . . . mortal flesh cant do that.

For the sake of thoroughness, also consider how Gyuki himself literally ran away from Kisame in his shark blade form. Likewise, the Divine Path went out of its way to avoid even a single touch from Hinata with her Lion Fists, despite what should have been multiple levels of difference in combat ability and speed.

Okay. Because I have multiple thesis on the subject of how the objects Nagato controls are not alive besides the fact that it has already been confirmed that they are not alive and their chakra paths are only active because Nagato fuels them. He literally controls the entire theme of it. They may have blood, they might have organs, but they simply don’t work like a living creature (or summon) does. Also confirmed. The summons don’t even have contracts. Nagato takes them like someone takes booty in jail. Snatched. The only reason ”they“ operate as such as to not be destroyed beyond repair because Nagato finding a suitable replacement is harder than just outsmarting his opponents and beating them like he knows he is capable of.

Aside from that, with the fact that Kisame is heavily nerfed and the centipede being considered “alive”, I still do not see how Kisame would deal with its sheer size and raw power. He cannot sap the chakra, I am not an expert on Sameheda so I am not sure what it’s capabilities are as far as it’s non-sentient form (assuming its sentient form is banned). However, if we allow Kisame’s pseudo-beast form which I don’t think we are considering it going by what Itachi would accept in his village, I think it would be a more decent battle considering his raw strength in that form. He also has some streamlined techs that aren’t village-busters but lethal nonetheless.

Post automatically merged: Jan 1, 2021

The narrative exemplifies that the Pain summons are alive, though. I mean, Asura Path is displayed to exude blood (Kakashi's Raikiri) implying it possesses an advanced intricately designed biological system which implies that it could die of blood loss, severe damage to internal organs, splitting of the arteries and veins. The term used to reference thier revival is revitalization instead of repair implying life. They are composed of organic tissue enriched with chakra through the rods. The fact that they have to utilize hand seals (ie., molding chakra requires concious effort supplied by the chakra circulatory pathways) implies that they possess an intricate chakra pathway system. It might not instantly dispel but that boils down to the properties of the offense involved. Kisame states that his blade cuts things to

You must be registered for see links

implying it conflates with the definition of an ordinary knife like exemplified in the scan which implies that it can reduce the centipede to significantly smaller parts with rapid fire successive slashes.

If he has to resummon it, the creature has to be in definite congruent shape (fit for battle simulations) which is impossible seeing as it would be divided into ribbons. If he tries to repair it'd consume a significant amount of time, implying that it'd be practically useless as it's an autowin due to BFR. Although he can technically repair it's virtually impossible to gauge the amount of time the process would consume.

I don't think that they are immortal tbf. The whole reason why they were hyped like immortals were explicitly due to the fact that they had this whole secret behind thier function ie., get killed, get revived or repair damage acquired and blindside the opponent who believes they won the battle. They aren't literally immortal, although they possess pseudo-immortality like Kakuzu and Hidan.

How would it biologically operate though, having it's body parts cut to ribbons? There is the additional risk of having it's chakra sapped which likely weakens or exhausts it significantly. It doesn't have any technique that could be streamed from the mouth if I recall.

If we presume it's composed of chakra wouldn't that implicate that characters with chakra absorption would effectively circumvent it's physique? I mean, if Samehada absorbed six tails chakra worth that implicates that it would've partly erased a bijuu if not completely (6-1) if it had been in close proximity, implying that Samehada is suddenly a bijuu subjugater which directly contradicts it's portrayal and features. We have no explicit evidence on whether sapping a literal manifested bijuu is possible. It hasn't been implied or exemplified.

Sakura possesses significantly superior physical power compared to Samehada however I see it more of as a battle of offensive attrition (ie., the centipede can only block a limited number of ribbon cutting slashes while Kisame has the features that alludes to him being capable of avoiding the centipede's assaults physically while dealing assaults concurrently.) that definitely wears out the summon. The blade is pretty durable - it tanked Killer Bee's V2 Lariat partially implying that likely translates to it's offensive power in some way shape or form. It lacking any notable offensive features implies it wouldn't put Kisame down indefinitely.

You can read my more recent response explaining my argument however per Infant we can consider the GC alive/living.

Edit: And further more I will not accept the fact that once damaged, it dispels. I am going on the fact that Kisame would either have to disrupt the chakra, remove the rod(s), or disable it beyond repair. Even if alive, it is not a contracted summon. So I will not accept the fact that it adheres to a normal summons rules because it isn’t a normal summon. Also alive in these rules so it might as well be considered a regular shinobi. But a centipede.