Kisame takes the Rock gauntlet

[Forbidden Technique]

Agree about the couple of seconds (3, maybe 4 max) for shinobi to react to the preparation of jinton, but the beam itself is extremely fast, so it could also catch a shinobi off guard anyway, especially in cube form. I will also say that it is questionable as to whether the Samehada can seamlessly absorb Jinton, but that seems like a discussion you and bac2 are having

The bolded isn't a very consistent theme in the manga though (Kakashi never surpassed Minato, Hiruzen and Danzō never surpassed Tobirama, neither Darui nor Ay surpassed the Third Raikage, etc.) so I don't know how you can use that against me. Not to mention that Mū was portrayed as the superior of the two due to his more varied skillset ([

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]), and the fact that Mū stalemated Ōnoki, and afterwards the latter

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, indicating that they should at least be equals in their mastery over the Dust Release.

Okay, so you admitted to 3-4 seconds time before Jinton is even fired. Then we need to consider the amount of time it will take for Jinton to reach Kisame. Mu is more then likely going to keep this a long-range fight, so firing Jinton from a longer range will obviously give Kisame even more time to counter. Samehada absorbing Jinton is indeed controversial, but GSB is still a viable option.

Very fair points, though I'm about 95% sure it was stated somewhere that Hiruzen surpassed Tobirama at some point, Lol. Okay, I'll concede on that. It's pretty reasonable to give Onoki's Jinton feats to Mu, I suppose.

You haven't really proven to me how Mu wins though.

No, jinton's traveling speed is extremely fast...Onoki had to counter with his own jinton VS Mu which means that he wasn't fast enough to dodge it. Deidara never avoided jinton and it wasn't implied that he could.

Based on...?

This scan shows that multiple Jintons were used and evaded without having to counter with another Jinton, which would of resulted to

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, rather then individual stone pillars being disintegrated in different spots.

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[Beans2]

Based on...?

This scan shows that multiple Jintons were used and evaded without having to counter with another Jinton, which would of resulted to

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, rather then individual stone pillars being disintegrated in different spots.

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...

The shape of the stone pillars in the scan you just posted clearly indicates that it was cut by spherical jintons. Jinton can be formed in the shape of a cylinder, cube, or a cone, but not a sphere. The only time it ever resulted in a sphere was when Muu and Onoki

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. Which means that Muu and Onoki clashed smaller-scale jintons off panel resulting in spherical shaped jinton explosions. Not seeing your point here, that scan just proves you wrong...

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Okay, so you admitted to 3-4 seconds time before Jinton is even fired. Then we need to consider the amount of time it will take for Jinton to reach Kisame.Mu is more then likely going to keep this a long-range fight, so firing Jinton from a longer range will obviously give Kisame even more time to counter. Samehada absorbing Jinton is indeed controversial, but GSB is still a viable option.

You haven't really proven to me how Mu wins though.

- The bolded: That isn't necessarily true. Mu can opt to attack from mid range if he sees fit as well, which would leave with Kisame less time to react to jinton.

Jinton's travel speed is

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, especially in its cubical form as we see right in these scans:

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Whether its from mid range like this one^

Or from short range like this one -

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We both agree that Daikoudan is the only deadset counter Kisame has for jinton Rather the counter Kisame has to jinton that we can both agree on is GSB (for now, we'll see how the samehada vs. jinton debate plays out), so Kisame's going to have to be extremely quick in reacting to the Samehada revealing Mu's position, and fire off Daikoudan. It may very well be that jinton could end up vaporizing Kisame before he gets the shark ready in time due to the former technique's sheer travel speed.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

...

The shape of the stone pillars in the scan you just posted clearly indicates that it was cut by spherical jintons. Jinton can be formed in the shape of a cylinder, cube, or a cone, but not a sphere. The only time it ever resulted in a sphere was when Muu and Onoki

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. Which means that Muu and Onoki clashed smaller-scale jintons off panel resulting in spherical shaped jinton explosions. Not seeing your point here, that scan just proves you wrong...

And why wouldn't a cylinder or cone not make that formation..? Seems very odd and unlikely for an Edo to opt into using such a small scale Jinton with unlimited chakra.

- The bolded: That isn't necessarily true. Mu can opt to attack from mid range if he sees fit as well, which would leave with Kisame less time to react to jinton.

Jinton's travel speed is

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, especially in its cubical form as we see right in these scans:

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Whether its from mid range like this one^

Or from short range like this one -

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We both agree that Daikoudan is the only deadset counter Kisame has for jinton Rather the counter Kisame has to jinton that we can both agree on is GSB (for now, we'll see how the samehada vs. jinton debate plays out), so Kisame's going to have to be extremely quick in reacting to the Samehada revealing Mu's position, and fire off Daikoudan. It may very well be that jinton could end up vaporizing Kisame before he gets the shark ready in time due to the former technique's sheer travel speed.

Approaching Kisame in close-medium range is a deathwish. Mu has to progressively make his body become visible, which gives Kisame a heads up and a few more seconds on top of Jintons prep time. All Kisame would have to do is

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and swing it towards Mu. It doesn't even have to make contact... Once it comes within range, it will absorb the chakra allowing Mu to fly, as well as Jintons charge-up. From there, Kisame makes the single seal required for the WD, and Mu is quickly engulfed. Kisame's reaction time and body speed allowed him to outmaneuver V1 Bee from point blank range... quite impressive, I'd say. I'm fairly confident that Kisame can get off a GSB in time, from a long-range Jinton. Also, I haven't forgetton about Mizu Bunshins either. Mu would have multiple targets to deal with, and he wouldn't know which one to fire Jinton at. Meanwhile, as Mu fires it off at one of them, all the others launch GSB or any jutsu at Mu.

We still don't really get to see Jintons travelling speed though. When Onoki fired the laser, all we saw was the end result of him swinging it. In those two other examples, it expanded close range... Everything else is off panel, smh.

 

[Draegod]

Muu will literally never get hit by anything kisame uses, arguably one of the best sensors ever shown with feats and reactions to match, he will see chakra build up before a hand seal is even thought of. And get out of range. And as seen with the flight speed displayed by the same flight user onoki, evading via arial is a no diff situation! Any and all water is vaporized so WD is 100% useless so is shock wave.

The only way this last long is if he fuses ASAP or gsb him in close range. Other then that muu wins mid-high diff just because lack of screen time.

 

[Beans2]

Muu will literally never get hit by anything kisame uses, arguably one of the best sensors ever shown with feats and reactions to match, he will see chakra build up before a hand seal is even thought of.And get out of range. And as seen with the flight speed displayed by the same flight user onoki, evading via arial is a no diff situation! Any and all water is vaporized so WD is 100% useless so is shock wave.

The only way this last long is if he fuses ASAP or gsb him in close range. Other then that muu wins mid-high diff just because lack of screen time.

Don't think that's true. Lol

 

[Beans2]

And why wouldn't a cylinder or cone not make that formation..? Seems very odd and unlikely for an Edo to opt into using such a small scale Jinton with unlimited chakra.

Because it's very clear that most or all of those were cut with spherical-shaped jintons if you look at the angles of the cuts which are concave. Kind of strange how not one cubic jinton showed its imprint on the rock, probably not a coincidence. Mu wasn't under Kabuto's complete control so his killing intent wasn't maxxed out. Deidara didn't just use C0 right off the bat when he went up against Kankuro's team, nor did Itachi activate the Mangekyou Sharingan until a good while into his battle with Naruto and Bee.

You don't really have any evidence to support the notion that Onoki or Muu's flightspeed is fast enough to dodge jinton.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

And why wouldn't a cylinder or cone not make that formation..? Seems very odd and unlikely for an Edo to opt into using such a small scale Jinton with unlimited chakra.



Approaching Kisame in close-medium range is a deathwish. Mu has to progressively make his body become visible, which gives Kisame a heads up and a few more seconds on top of Jintons prep time. All Kisame would have to do is

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and swing it towards Mu. It doesn't even have to make contact... Once it comes within range, it will absorb the chakra allowing Mu to fly, as well as Jintons charge-up. From there, Kisame makes the single seal required for the WD, and Mu is quickly engulfed. Kisame's reaction time and body speed allowed him to outmaneuver V1 Bee from point blank range... quite impressive, I'd say. I'm fairly confident that Kisame can get off a GSB in time, from a long-range Jinton. Also, I haven't forgetton about Mizu Bunshins either. Mu would have multiple targets to deal with, and he wouldn't know which one to fire Jinton at. Meanwhile, as Mu fires it off at one of them, all the others launch GSB or any jutsu.

It's fully within Mū's capacity to dodge the samehada from mid range given his feats as a sensor, and his reaction feats. Like Draegod said, Mū is one of the best sensors in the manga.

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, despite said company being a

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.

In terms of reaction feats, I'll go ahead and reinforce the example that I already showed you in a previous reply

Actually in these two scans we see that Mū was able to sense Ōnoki from above prepping jinton, and countered using his own jinton even though Ōnoki started prepping before he did.

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There's also the fact that he casually avoided Gaara's sand in the first scan. In addition, Mū managed to avoid

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.

Applying all of these feats into the scenario you illustrated, no way is the Samehada absorbing any jinton prep, because Mū would immediatly stop prepping it like he did against Naruto. Nor would the Samehada absorb the chakra that he's using to fly, because he'll sense its movement and react accordingly.

Now, as for how Mū can outfox Kisame and turn him into dust/assasinate him, I'll post my strategy later. I just wanted to post this counter first, as I have several scenarios in mind.

 

[KingHashirama]

So how does he low diff the guy who creates mountains?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Because it's very clear that most or all of those were cut with spherical-shaped jintons if you look at the angles of the cuts which are concave. Kind of strange how not one cubic jinton showed its imprint on the rock, probably not a coincidence. Mu wasn't under Kabuto's complete control so his killing intent wasn't maxxed out. Deidara didn't just use C0 right off the bat when he went up against Kankuro's team, nor did Itachi activate the Mangekyou Sharingan until a good while into his battle with Naruto and Bee.

You don't really have any evidence to support the notion that Onoki or Muu's flightspeed is fast enough to dodge jinton.

Makes sense. So then I suppose Jinton does travel too fast for Samehada to fully absorb before getting hit. And tbh, GSB is even iffy because the DB say's no ninjutsu can defend against Jinton... but then GSB DB description counter hypes it.

It's fully within Mū's capacity to dodge the samehada from mid range given his feats as a sensor, and his reaction feats. Like Draegod said, Mū is one of the best sensors in the manga.

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, despite said company being a

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.

In terms of reaction feats, I'll go ahead and reinforce the example that I already showed you in a previous reply



There's also the fact that he casually avoided Gaara's sand in the first scan. In addition, Mū managed to avoid

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.

Applying all of these feats into the scenario you illustrated, no way is the Samehada absorbing any jinton prep, because Mū would immediatly stop prepping it like he did against Naruto. Nor would the Samehada absorb the chakra that he's using to fly, because he'll sense its movement and react accordingly.

Now, as for how Mū can outfox Kisame and turn him into dust/assasinate him, I'll post my strategy later. I just wanted to post this counter first, as I have several scenarios in mind.

I don't believe you're really following me. I know for a fact Mu will be able to dodge Kisame swinging Samehada at him from close to mid-range. The fact of the matter is, contact doesn't need to be drawn because Samehada has a absorption range that Mu knows nothing about.

Spoiler

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If we consider the distance Mu avoids an attack [

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]-[

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] he is more then likely going to be still within Samehadas range of absorption, where his flight will be taken away from him, at the very least. From there, Kisame utilized his GSB or WD. Need I mention again how the WD only takes a single hand seal and engulfs what ever is within it's AoE

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? Mu is not flying out of it's range when he's within 10 or so meters away from Kisame on ground level. Also, you didn't address the Mizu Bunshins.

Losing a bit of interest in this debate, but I'd like to see what you got.

 

[makosheva7]

Deidara could go either way. Loses to everyone after. Lol why does everyone fap so much to Kisame? The dude's weird af.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Makes sense. So then I suppose Jinton does travel too fast for Samehada to fully absorb before getting hit. And tbh, GSB is even iffy because the DB say's no ninjutsu can defend against Jinton... but then GSB DB description counter hypes it.



I don't believe you're really following me. I know for a fact Mu will be able to dodge Kisame swinging Samehada at him from close to mid-range. The fact of the matter is, contact doesn't need to be drawn because Samehada has a absorption range that Mu knows nothing about.

Spoiler

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If we consider the distance Mu avoids an attack [

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]-[

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] he is more then likely going to be still within Samehadas range of absorption, where his flight will be taken away from him, at the very least. From there, Kisame utilized his GSB or WD. Need I mention again how the WD only takes a single hand seal and engulfs what ever is within it's AoE

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? Mu is not flying out of it's range when he's within 10 or so meters away from Kisame on ground level. Also, you didn't address the Mizu Bunshins.

Losing a bit of interest in this debate, but I'd like to see what you got.

I would have posted earlier, but I was a bit busy w/ schoolwork, and I needed some time to dig deep and find relevant scans.

- The Bolded: That would be true if Mū got near Kisame at a close enough range. However, from mid range, there's nothing that indicates that Mū will wait until the Samehada is close to him to dodge it. Those two examples happened from close range, and the closest Mū will stray towards Kisame is mid range (at least 15-20 meters) in order to safely analyze the latter's abilities and actions. The Samehada's absorption range would fall short of reaching Mū by the time he dodges. If Kisame chooses to spit out the water dome, then Mū will fly out of its range, though it'll be close.

Mū, being the Tsuchikage, should be able to utilize the bunshins of his village considering that regular jōnin like Akatsuchi were capable of using them [

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], and the fact that Mū uses a

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. These clones shouldn't take much chakra, since Ōnoki used 4 of them subsequently after a jinton duel against Mū [

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]. With that said, here's how Mū wins this matchup

At the start of the match, he flies up high and makes 3 iwa bunshins, permitting the original enough chakra to use jinton. The clones and himself then go invisible. To counteract this, Kisame will do one of two things: he'll create mizu bunshins to cover his blind spots, or he'll spit out his water dome, merge with the Samehada, and create Kisamehada mizu bunshins.

If he chooses option one, then Mū will have one clone sneak up on Kisame's clone perimiter and stab [

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]-[

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] as many clones as it can before it gets killed (in all likelyhood it won't reach the real one), throwing the other clones out of position in a rush to kill it. At the same time, Mū's other clone will appear at mid range (say 20 or so meters) from one angle and

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prepping jinton. This will prompt the real Kisame to either prep Daikōdan or spit out the water dome, since his clones won't have enough chakra to use those jutsus themselves. The real Mū will go visible at mid to long range from the opposite angle of his second clone as soon as his clone starts "prepping" jinton, prep it himself, and vaporize the real Kisame, who will stick out for forming a seal and/or spitting water from his mouth. If not, Mū can just choose to vaporize them all with a swinging jinton to be on the safe side. The 3d clone won't be involved, as its purpose is just to throw Kisame off from the start.

If Kisame opts for the second option, Mū will more or less employ the same tactic. Two clones will enter the water dome in an attempt to throw the clones off a little. The last clone will go visible and fake prepping jinton, forcing the real Kisame to take action. The real Mū will appear as the fake Mū "preps" and use this

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or this

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(albeit at a smaller scale since he won't have the help of chakra transferance), vaporizing Kisame and the dome itself.



Edit: Mū can also make himself visible more quickly than the time he takes to go invisible [

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], so going visible and prepping jinton won't take as much time as you think.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I would have posted earlier, but I was a bit busy w/ schoolwork, and I needed some time to dig deep and find relevant scans.

- The Bolded: That would be true if Mū got near Kisame at a close enough range. However, from mid range, there's nothing that indicates that Mū will wait until the Samehada is close to him to dodge it. Those two examples happened from close range, and the closest Mū will stray towards Kisame is mid range (at least 15-20 meters) in order to safely analyze the latter's abilities and actions. The Samehada's absorption range would fall short of reaching Mū by the time he dodges. If Kisame chooses to spit out the water dome, then Mū will fly out of its range, though it'll be close.

Mū, being the Tsuchikage, should be able to utilize the bunshins of his village considering that regular jōnin like Akatsuchi were capable of using them [

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], and the fact that Mū uses a

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. These clones shouldn't take much chakra, since Ōnoki used 4 of them subsequently after a jinton duel against Mū [

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]. With that said, here's how Mū wins this matchup

At the start of the match, he flies up high and makes 3 iwa bunshins, permitting the original enough chakra to use jinton. The clones and himself then go invisible. To counteract this, Kisame will do one of two things: he'll create mizu bunshins to cover his blind spots, or he'll spit out his water dome, merge with the Samehada, and create Kisamehada mizu bunshins.

If he chooses option one, then Mū will have one clone sneak up on Kisame's clone perimiter and stab [

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]-[

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] as many clones as it can before it gets killed (in all likelyhood it won't reach the real one), throwing the other clones out of position in a rush to kill it. At the same time, Mū's other clone will appear at mid range (say 20 or so meters) from one angle and

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prepping jinton. This will prompt the real Kisame to either prep Daikōdan or spit out the water dome, since his clones won't have enough chakra to use those jutsus themselves. The real Mū will go visible at mid to long range from the opposite angle of his second clone as soon as his clone starts "prepping" jinton, prep it himself, and vaporize the real Kisame, who will stick out for forming a seal and/or spitting water from his mouth. If not, Mū can just choose to vaporize them all with a swinging jinton to be on the safe side. The 3d clone won't be involved, as its purpose is just to throw Kisame off from the start.

If Kisame opts for the second option, Mū will more or less employ the same tactic. Two clones will enter the water dome in an attempt to throw the clones off a little. The last clone will go visible and fake prepping jinton, forcing the real Kisame to take action. The real Mū will appear as the fake Mū "preps" and use this

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or this

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(albeit at a smaller scale since he won't have the help of chakra transferance), vaporizing Kisame and the dome itself.



Edit: Mū can also make himself visible more quickly than the time he takes to go invisible [

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], so going visible and prepping jinton won't take as much time as you think.

Bee was medium range away, and still got easily caught by the WD. Mu is equivalent to Onoki's flight speed, who is equivalent to Deidara. Hebi Sasuke had no problem combating an aerial Deidara, while Taka Sasuke was getting overwhelmed by base and V1 Bee, let alone V2's speed. Obviously, there are many factors that I didn't take into consideration, but I find it very reasonable to say V2 Bee's foot speed is equal to or faster then Onoki/Deidara/Mu's flight speed. So I really don't see how Mu is flying out of the WD's range from close to medium range on ground level, when we consider how quickly V2 Bee was caught without even getting the chance react.

If you're going to give Iwa Bunshins to Mu, then I'm going to go right ahead and give the Hidden Mist Jutsu to Kisame. It's a D-Rank Chuunin level jutsu, that ninja from the Hidden Mist, and especially the 7 Swordsmen specialize in. This jutsu alone foils your entire plan, because Mu can't sense while invisible, otherwise he wouldn't of stepped on Gaaras sensor sand. So with the Hidden Mist in play, it will force Mu to stay visible the entire fight if he wants to know Kisame's position.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Bee was medium range away, and still got easily caught by the WD.

Hardly think that

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classifies as mid range.

Mu is equivalent to Onoki's flight speed, who is equivalent to Deidara. Hebi Sasuke had no problem combating an aerial Deidara, while Taka Sasuke was getting overwhelmed by base and V1 Bee, let alone V2's speed. Obviously, there are many factors that I didn't take into consideration, but I find it very reasonable to say V2 Bee's foot speed is equal to or faster then Onoki/Deidara/Mu's flight speed.

The aerial Deidara that was purposely flying just outside of Sasuke's attack range [

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]-[

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]? Deidara was rather careless during that match, thinking that Sasuke wouldn't be able to

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, when he could have just casually flown further up and evaded Sasuke with ease if he wasn't so blindly obssesed with killing Itachi's brother.

So I really don't see how Mu is flying out of the WD's range from close to medium range on ground level, when we consider how quickly V2 Bee was caught without even getting the chance react.

It was

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that was caught in the water dome. Bee also doesn't have the benefit of being a sensor type, so Mu would react much quicker than the former did. Not to mention that the distance between Mu and Kisame would be greater than the distance between Kisame and Bee.

Since you admitted that v2 Bee's foot speed is roughly more or less the same as Mu's flight speed, then from mid range, I still don't see how the dome catches Mu in time.

If you're going to give Iwa Bunshins to Mu, then I'm going to go right ahead and give the Hidden Mist Jutsu to Kisame. It's a D-Rank Chuunin level jutsu, that ninja from the Hidden Mist, and especially the 7 Swordsmen specialize in. This jutsu alone foils your entire plan, because Mu can't sense while invisible, otherwise he wouldn't of stepped on Gaaras sensor sand. So with the Hidden Mist in play, it will force Mu to stay visible the entire fight if he wants to know Kisame's position.

How does it foil it? You're only adding another stipulation in Kirigakure no Jutsu. To be honest, I find it rather reasonable to give him that jutsu as well (despite the fact that it doesn't exactly fit his fighting style). Mu would still make iwa Bunshins, make them invisible, have one of them infiltrate the mist, one of them go visible and "prep" jinton to fake the real Kisame out, then the real Mu goes visible and vaporizes him, following the same strategy.