Kisame takes the Rock gauntlet

[Beans2]

Loses to Deidara, Onoki, and Muu.

 

[Draegod]

How does Kisame survive Mountain Sandwhich?

They think sub voyage saves him.

 

[Beans2]

How does Kisame survive Mountain Sandwhich?

Subterrenean voyage

 

[Forbidden Technique]

It's a pseudo-sensor because it's drawn to chakra in extremely large quantities, like Bee's. It won't be drawn to Mū's chakra, which isn't that big in quantity, relatively speaking.

Don't see how fusion or Mizu bunshins help, since Mū isn't getting caught in the dome, and is also a sensor and can swing jinton across his body similar to how Ōnoki did in the scan I posted.

Not exactly true, when we consider that Kisamehada was still sensing Bee in the WD when his chakra was nearly all depleted [

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]. Then we have the fact that Samehada knew his wielder wasn't Kisame [

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] and then swam his way back to Kisame [

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] who was only at 30% of his chakra. Based on these two examples, it doesn't make any sense to say Mu can't be sensed, while visible obviously.

Fusion Mode would help with locating Mu faster, I would say. Mizu Bunshins all equipped with Samehada would make it easier on Kisame to counter attack while Jinton is aimed at a clone, and more importantly Samehada can absorb up to 6 tails worth of Bijuu chakra at a given time. I don't believe Jinton exceeds said amount of chakra, so I see no reason why it couldn't be absorbed, or at the very least split in half. GSB should suffice as well in canceling the jutsu out.

 

[Beans2]

Not exactly true, when we consider that Kisamehada was still sensing Bee in the WD when his chakra was nearly all depleted [

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]. Then we have the fact that Samehada knew his wielder wasn't Kisame [

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] and then swam his way back to Kisame [

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] who was only at 30% of his chakra. Based on these two examples, it doesn't make any sense to say Mu can't be sensed, while visible obviously.

Fusion Mode would help with locating Mu faster, I would say. Mizu Bunshins all equipped with Samehada would make it easier on Kisame to counter attack while Jinton is aimed at a clone, and more importantly Samehada can absorb up to 6 tails worth of Bijuu chakra at a given time. I don't believe Jinton exceeds said amount of chakra, so I see no reason why it couldn't be absorbed, or at the very least split in half. GSB should suffice as well in canceling the jutsu out.

I disagree with Samehada absorbing jinton because the attack is too fast for Samehada to conpletely absorb (similar to how a Susanoo arrow would plow through Samehada instead of getting completely absorbed on contact.) Daikodan would probably work though.

 

[Zexion~]

How does Kisame survive Mountain Sandwhich?

By either going underground with his underground suiton.

I'm pretty sure doton simply can't be absorbed. I don't really know what that would look like but it still uses chakra.

But yeah Subterranean Voyage dodges it easily

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Not exactly true, when we consider that Kisamehada was still sensing Bee in the WD when his chakra was nearly all depleted [

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]. Then we have the fact that Samehada knew his wielder wasn't Kisame [

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] and then swam his way back to Kisame [

You must be registered for see links

] who was only at 30% of his chakra. Based on these two examples, it doesn't make any sense to say Mu can't be sensed, while visible obviously.

Fusion Mode would help with locating Mu faster, I would say. Mizu Bunshins all equipped with Samehada would make it easier on Kisame to counter attack while Jinton is aimed at a clone, and more importantly Samehada can absorb up to 6 tails worth of Bijuu chakra at a given time. I don't believe Jinton exceeds said amount of chakra, so I see no reason why it couldn't be absorbed, or at the very least split in half. GSB should suffice as well in canceling the jutsu out.

It should be noted here that the Samehada had a special inclination to the Hachibi's chakra due to it being its favorite type [

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], so its natural that the samehada would be drawn to it despite its reserves being relatively low.

Kisame has bijuu level chakra reserves and wields the power of a bijuu as Chōjurō stated here [

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], so it'd be natural for the Samehada to be attracted to his chakra as well.

Here's an excerpt from narutowiki regarding the Samehada and its wielder:

Samehada shares a symbiotic relationship with its wielder, similar to that of the kikaichū. Although it continually consumes the chakra of its owner, its largest meals come from fights, wherein it absorbs the chakra of the opposition instead.

Having been together with Kisame for so long, the Samehada had also become accostumed to his large reserves, and the potency of his chakra. The excerpt that I posted ties in here because it's always passively eating the chakra of its wielder. It should easily notice when someone other than Kisame is wielding it because not many people have chakra as large and potent as the latter, and its already established that the Samehada perfers large and/or powerful chakra. Lee and Tenten simply fell extremely short of satisfying its desires.

However, when someone who did surpass Kisame in both of those categories came along in Bee, the Samehada betrayed him [

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]. This indicates that the Samehada is attracted to chakra based on preference and inclination. If whoever tries to wield it doesn't meet its "chakra quota", it'll simply forcibly deatch itself from whoever is holding it. It won't same inclination towards Mū, who in all probability does not have as much chakra as Bee or Kisame, so I don't think the Samehada will pay any mind towards his chakra, let alone sense it and relay Mū's position to Kisame.

Daikōdan's charge time is slower than jinton's, so I don't see that being an option in stopping it.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

I disagree with Samehada absorbing jinton because the attack is too fast for Samehada to conpletely absorb (similar to how a Susanoo arrow would plow through Samehada instead of getting completely absorbed on contact.) Daikodan would probably work though.

Based on what speed feats that suggest that Jinton is anywhere close to being as fast as a Susano'o arrow, which Kakashi and Danzo couldn't physically react to. It doesn't need to completely absorb the jutsu, just cut it in half as it did to Itachi's Katon so that Kisame isn't hit by it.

It should be noted here that the Samehada had a special inclination to the Hachibi's chakra due to it being its favorite type [

You must be registered for see links

], so its natural that the samehada would be drawn to it despite its reserves being relatively low.

Kisame has bijuu level chakra reserves and wields the power of a bijuu as Chōjurō stated here [

You must be registered for see links

], so it'd be natural for the Samehada to be attracted to his chakra as well.

Here's an excerpt from narutowiki regarding the Samehada and its wielder:



Having been together with Kisame for so long, the Samehada had also become accostumed to his large reserves, and the potency of his chakra. The excerpt that I posted ties in here because it's always passively eating the chakra of its wielder. It should easily notice when someone other than Kisame is wielding it because not many people have chakra as large and potent as the latter, and its already established that the Samehada perfers large and/or powerful chakra. Lee and Tenten simply fell extremely short of satisfying its desires.

However, when someone who did surpass Kisame in both of those categories came along in Bee, the Samehada betrayed him [

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]. This indicates that the Samehada is attracted to chakra based on preference and inclination. It doesn't mean that it will have the same inclination towards Mū, who in all probability does not have as much chakra as Bee or Kisame.

Daikōdan's charge time is slower than jinton's, so I don't see that being an option in stopping it.

That's all fine and dandy, however Kisame specifically say's when fused with Samehada, he can feel other peoples chakra [

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]. That doesn't in the slightest imply what you're suggesting. And if we want to be technical, Kisame was at way less then 30% of chakra when it broke free from Gai's grip (Whom is a stamina beast, with a 5/5 score in the DB), considering the enormous lake he first created, then splitting his chakra by 1/10th three times with the Mizu Bunshins, and then the water prisons. Also, you're forgetting that Samehada betrayed a Zetsu-Kisame clone, not Kisame himself, who was hiding within Samehada at that point. Anyways, as I already mentioned, the manga blatantly states that Samehada can feel peoples chakra, without anything being stated about the specifications you believe that apply.

The GSB and Gai's Hirudora seemingly had the same amount prep time when they were first introduced. Yet we seen how fast Gai can utilize Hirudora against JJ Madara, under completely different circumstances. Kisame and Gai were talking and there was no sense of urgency or race to fire it off as quickly as possible. Furthermore, we know that technique names aren't shouted out until the moment they're about to be used, and Zetsu-Kisame under a sense of urgency was about to fire it off much faster then Kisame did [

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]. So don't base GSB's execution speed on the first and only time it was used in the manga.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

That's all fine and dandy, however Kisame specifically say's when fused with Samehada, he can feel other peoples chakra [

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]. That doesn't in the slightest imply what you're suggesting. And if we want to be technical, Kisame was at way less then 30% of chakra when it broke free from Gai's grip (Whom is a stamina beast, with a 5/5 score in the DB), considering the enormous lake he first created, then splitting his chakra by 1/10th three times with the Mizu Bunshins, and then the water prisons. Also, you're forgetting that Samehada betrayed a Zetsu-Kisame clone, not Kisame himself, who was hiding within Samehada at that point. Anyways, as I already mentioned, the manga blatantly states that Samehada can feel peoples chakra, without anything being stated about the specifications you believe that apply.

Kisame can feel people's chakra when he's fused with the Samehada, so alright, I'll admit that the Samehada does have some ability that lets it sense chakra. However, the samehada itself when separated from Kisame has only ever shown inclinations towards particular chakra signatures based on their strength, quantity, and potency, meaning that it will disregard chakra that isn't as large and/or powerful. This means that it's going to disregard Mū's chakra and won't let Kisame know of his position. I didn't need statements to prove this in my first reply. Point is, by itself, the Samehada will never act as a true chakra sensor. Kisame can only detect him if he takes it upon himself to fuse with the Samehada, in which Mū will use that opportunity to vaporize him. 30% Kisame still had bijuu level chakra since Neji compared him to cloaked Naruto. Guy's a stamina monster, sure, in terms of his body's durability and resistance, but chakra isn't exactly the same thing as stamina. There's no indication that Guy has chakra reseves on par with even 30% Kisame or Kurama cloak Naruto. Don't see how Zetsu-Kisame makes a difference since Zetsu can seamlessly copy chakra signatures.

The GSB and Gai's Hirudora seemingly had the same amount prep time when they were first introduced. Yet we seen how fast Gai can utilize Hirudora against JJ Madara, under completely different circumstances. Kisame and Gai were talking and there was no sense of urgency or race to fire it off as quickly as possible. Furthermore, we know that technique names aren't shouted out until the moment they're about to be used, and Zetsu-Kisame under a sense of urgency was about to fire it off much faster then Kisame did [

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]. So don't base GSB's execution speed on the first and only time it was used in the manga.

Ok, but we still can only speculate on how fast Kisame can execute this technique if he wants to fire it off as quickly as possible. Using that Zetsu-Kisame example as a threshold for how fast Kisame can use that technique is questionable because despite of their ability to copy chakra signatures, they're normally weaker than the originals. I don't even know why Kishi drew that, as Zetsu wouldn't have been able to perform that technique

Having no set appearance, White Zetsu was able to alter his form and chakra.[21] Doing so allowed him to become or create a special substitute of another individual, becoming an indistinguishable copy of them. As these copies were normally weaker than the originals, they mainly served as decoys or for infiltration and assassination.

Never mind, I remembered that Zetsu did get some chakra from Kisamehada, and probably had intel on Kisame's abilites due to the infiltration plan that they both played a part in executing, so I'll concede on this point.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Based on what speed feats that suggest that Jinton is anywhere close to being as fast as a Susano'o arrow, which Kakashi and Danzo couldn't physically react to. It doesn't need to completely absorb the jutsu, just cut it in half as it did to Itachi's Katon so that Kisame isn't hit by it.

Messed up while breaking down the quotes, my reply is above

And by the way, jinton's prep time and speed is quicker than most people think

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You must be registered for see links

And since Samehada doesn't really act as a true sensor by itself, good luck to Kisame in detecting Mū's chakra and swinging the samehada at it before he gets vaporized. The only way he can detect Mū is by fusing with the Samehada, and even then Mū can snipe him while he's in the process of fusing.

 

[DMT]

it has been debated many times, Samehada can't absorb Kekkei Tota when a regular Katon caused a problem for it., the Kisame wankers maked it look like preta path

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Kisame can feel people's chakra when he's fused with the Samehada, so alright, I'll admit that the Samehada does have some ability that lets it sense chakra. However, the samehada itself when separated from Kisame has only ever shown inclinations towards particular chakra signatures based on their strength, quantity, and potency, meaning that it will disregard chakra that isn't as large and/or powerful. This means that it's going to disregard Mū's chakra and won't let Kisame know of his position. I didn't need statements to prove this in my first reply. Point is, by itself, the Samehada will never act as a true chakra sensor. Kisame can only detect him if he takes it upon himself to fuse with the Samehada, in which Mū will use that opportunity to vaporize him. 30% Kisame still had bijuu level chakra since Neji compared him to cloaked Naruto. Guy's a stamina monster, sure, in terms of his body's durability and resistance, but chakra isn't exactly the same thing as stamina. There's no indication that Guy has chakra reseves on par with even 30% Kisame or Kurama cloak Naruto. Don't see how Zetsu-Kisame makes a difference since Zetsu can seamlessly copy chakra signatures.

Kisame gains all of Samehadas abilitie while fused...It doesn't make much sense to say Kisame, who alone doesn't possess a shred of sensory capabilites, somehow enhances Samehadas sensory while fused. That was 100% Samehadas ability that he enherited in that fusion state. ...But then we have the feat of Samehada tracking down Sasuke [

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]. This should completely shatter the notion that Samehada can only sense Bijuu-esque chakra. Again, Kisame wasn't at 30% of his chakra in that scenario though. He was at way less then that when we considered the jutsu he used. Chakra is practically stamina, btw. I believe I proved my point though.

Messed up while breaking down the quotes, my reply is above

And by the way, jinton's prep time and speed is quicker than most people think

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You must be registered for see links

And since Samehada doesn't really act as a true sensor by itself, good luck to Kisame in detecting Mū's chakra and swinging the samehada at it before he gets vaporized. The only way he can detect Mū is by fusing with the Samehada, and even then Mū can snipe him while he's in the process of fusing.

Samehada is a sensor by every sense of the word. Also, Samehada doesn't need to be swung in order to absorb chakra [

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].

Those are Onoki's Jinton feats, who lived to be much older then Mu, and thus had more time and experience in advancing his jutsu [

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]. Edo Mu's Jinton prep time allowed enough time for Gaara to traverse between Mu and Onoki [

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], as well as Naruto, who was travelling based on momentum through the air, being able to disrupt it [

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]; and then the second time around Gaara was capable of creating a sand cloud out of all the individual grains of sand floating around in the air [

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] so that Naruto could land a hit with his extension arm [

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]. So here we can conclude that Edo Mu's Jinton prep isn't anywhere close to being instant. Also, do note this was relatively a medium range quarter fight. Mu is obviously going to be fighting Kisame from a much greater distance, which means Kisame will have even more time react accordingly to Jinton. Whether that be GSB or Samehadas absorption.

 

[Draegod]

Once jinton surrounds the target in a cube it's nigh instant GG! It is a fact sama doesn't instant absorb or even comes close to or compares to Petra path. Jinton will infact kill kisame or at the very least vanish limbs that aren't close to sama and even then sama would possibly get damaged beyond repair.

 

[Draegod]

Kisame gains all of Samehadas abilitie while fused...It doesn't make much sense to say Kisame, who alone doesn't possess a shred of sensory capabilites, somehow enhances Samehadas sensory while fused. That was 100% Samehadas ability that he enherited in that fusion state. ...But then we have the feat of Samehada tracking down Sasuke [

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]. This should completely shatter the notion that Samehada can only sense Bijuu-esque chakra. Again, Kisame wasn't at 30% of his chakra in that scenario though. He was at way less then that when we considered the jutsu he used. Chakra is practically stamina, btw. I believe I proved my point though.



Samehada is a sensor by every sense of the word. Also, Samehada doesn't need to be swung in order to absorb chakra [

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].

Those are Onoki's Jinton feats, who lived to be much older then Mu, and thus had more time and experience in advancing his jutsu [

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]. Edo Mu's Jinton prep time allowed enough time for Gaara to traverse between Mu and Onoki [

You must be registered for see links

], as well as Naruto, who was travelling based on momentum through the air, being able to disrupt it [

You must be registered for see links

]; and then the second time around Gaara was capable of creating a sand cloud out of all the individual grains of sand floating around in the air [

You must be registered for see links

] so that Naruto could land a hit with his extension arm [

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]. So here we can conclude that Edo Mu's Jinton prep isn't anywhere close to being instant. Also, do note this was relatively a medium range quarter fight. Mu is obviously going to be fighting Kisame from a much greater distance, which means Kisame will have even more time react accordingly to Jinton. Whether that be GSB or Samehadas absorption.

Databook and manga fact all jinton is the same no disputing in the least! Just because muu or other characters have less screen time users like yourself try to make excuses to downplay what has been shown or stated. Fact from Kishi all jinton users are equal in the kkt.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Kisame gains all of Samehadas abilitie while fused...It doesn't make much sense to say Kisame, who alone doesn't possess a shred of sensory capabilites, somehow enhances Samehadas sensory while fused.That was 100% Samehadas ability that he enherited in that fusion state. ...But then we have the feat of Samehada tracking down Sasuke [

You must be registered for see links

]. This should completely shatter the notion that Samehada can only sense Bijuu-esque chakra. Again, Kisame wasn't at 30% of his chakra in that scenario though. He was at way less then that when we considered the jutsu he used. Chakra is practically stamina, btw. I believe I proved my point though.

Alright, I'll agree about the Samehada acting as a sensor. I never thought that Kisame actually used it to track down Sasuke in that scan, but I can see why now.

About your first point, I did acknowledge that the Samehada has an ability that lets it feel chakra, since the fusion lets Kisame use its abilities. What I tried to prove was that the Samehada by itself disregards, not that it doesn't sense, chakra that isn't as large or potent, since it is heavily drawn to the latter. I'll acknowledge that I was mistaken on that point in light of the Sasuke scan, but it seems that Kisame had to coerce the Samehada into finding him, meaning that using the fusion to detect chakra would be a faster way to detect Mū.

Chakra isn't exactly stamina though, but the two overlap. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that Guy uses a fighting style that isn't necessarily based on chakra.

Samehada is a sensor by every sense of the word. Also, Samehada doesn't need to be swung in order to absorb chakra [

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].

Kisame will have to have the Samehada facing in the direction of where the jinton beam will come from, or else he'll get turned to dust.

Those are Onoki's Jinton feats, who lived to be much older then Mu, and thus had more time and experience in advancing his jutsu [

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]. Edo Mu's Jinton prep time allowed enough time for Gaara to traverse between Mu and Onoki [

You must be registered for see links

], as well as Naruto, who was travelling based on momentum through the air, being able to disrupt it [

You must be registered for see links

]; and then the second time around Gaara was capable of creating a sand cloud out of all the individual grains of sand floating around in the air [

You must be registered for see links

] so that Naruto could land a hit with his extension arm [

You must be registered for see links

]. So here we can conclude that Edo Mu's Jinton prep isn't anywhere close to being instant. Also, do note this was relatively a medium range quarter fight. Mu is obviously going to be fighting Kisame from a much greater distance, which means Kisame will have even more time react accordingly to Jinton. Whether that be GSB or Samehadas absorption.

Actually in these two scans we see that Mū was able to sense Ōnoki from above prepping jinton, and countered using his own jinton even though Ōnoki started prepping before he did.

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Plus we factor in that Mū was Ōnoki's teacher, and the former taught him all the secrets of the Dust Release. I think that it is more than likely that Mū should be able to replicate Ōnoki's feats with jinton.

 

[Beans2]

Based on what speed feats that suggest that Jinton is anywhere close to being as fast as a Susano'o arrow, which Kakashi and Danzo couldn't physically react to. It doesn't need to completely absorb the jutsu, just cut it in half as it did to Itachi's Katon so that Kisame isn't hit by it.



That's all fine and dandy, however Kisame specifically say's when fused with Samehada, he can feel other peoples chakra [

You must be registered for see links

]. That doesn't in the slightest imply what you're suggesting. And if we want to be technical, Kisame was at way less then 30% of chakra when it broke free from Gai's grip (Whom is a stamina beast, with a 5/5 score in the DB), considering the enormous lake he first created, then splitting his chakra by 1/10th three times with the Mizu Bunshins, and then the water prisons. Also, you're forgetting that Samehada betrayed a Zetsu-Kisame clone, not Kisame himself, who was hiding within Samehada at that point. Anyways, as I already mentioned, the manga blatantly states that Samehada can feel peoples chakra, without anything being stated about the specifications you believe that apply.

The GSB and Gai's Hirudora seemingly had the same amount prep time when they were first introduced. Yet we seen how fast Gai can utilize Hirudora against JJ Madara, under completely different circumstances. Kisame and Gai were talking and there was no sense of urgency or race to fire it off as quickly as possible. Furthermore, we know that technique names aren't shouted out until the moment they're about to be used, and Zetsu-Kisame under a sense of urgency was about to fire it off much faster then Kisame did [

You must be registered for see links

]. So don't base GSB's execution speed on the first and only time it was used in the manga.

Samehada absorption isn't instant unlike Preta whereas jinton vaporizes the instant it makes contact. Samehada would get disintegrated before it can absorb.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Databook and manga fact all jinton is the same no disputing in the least! Just because muu or other characters have less screen time users like yourself try to make excuses to downplay what has been shown or stated. Fact from Kishi all jinton users are equal in the kkt.

Lmao, this is extremely rich coming from you. Lol

Kisame will have to have the Samehada facing in the direction of where the jinton beam will come from, or else he'll get turned to dust.



Actually in these two scans we see that Mū was able to sense Ōnoki from above prepping jinton, and countered using his own jinton even though Ōnoki started prepping before he did.

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Plus we factor in that Mū was Ōnoki's teacher, and the former taught him all the secrets of the Dust Release. I think that it is more than likely that Mū should be able to replicate Ōnoki's feats with jinton.

That shouldn't be a problem at all. Soon as Mu goes invisible, Kisame can prompt Samehada to actively attempt at sensing him out. My guess is that Kisame and Samehada comunicate passively somehow, so as soon as Mu goes visible (Which isn't instant), Samehada will direct Kisame to his location.

Fair enough, in regards to that feat. My point still stands in that shinobi have a good couple of seconds to act before Jinton finishes charging up. Students are meant to surpass their teachers though, especially in this manga. So I don't see how that point supports you.

Samehada absorption isn't instant unlike Preta whereas jinton vaporizes the instant it makes contact. Samehada would get disintegrated before it can absorb.

I understand that, but what is suggesting that Jintons travelling speed is too fast for Samehadas absorption? IIRC, Deidaras and Onoki's/Mu's flight speed is fast enough to evade it.

 

[Transcendence]

Lml Kisame clears

Jinton is absorbed

Absorbs... Jinton? Come on Zex.

OT: Stops at Deidara because of Deidara's nature superiority.

 

[Ghost in the Shell]

Lmao, this is extremely rich coming from you. Lol




That shouldn't be a problem at all. Soon as Mu goes invisible, Kisame can prompt Samehada to actively attempt at sensing him out. My guess is that Kisame and Samehada comunicate passively somehow, so as soon as Mu goes visible (Which isn't instant), Samehada will direct Kisame to his location.

Fair enough, in regards to that feat. My point still stands in that shinobi have a good couple of seconds to act before Jinton finishes charging up. Students are meant to surpass their teachers though, especially in this manga. So I don't see how that point supports you.

Agree about the couple of seconds (3, maybe 4 max) for shinobi to react to the preparation of jinton, but the beam itself is extremely fast, so it could also catch a shinobi off guard anyway, especially in cube form. I will also say that it is questionable as to whether the Samehada can seamlessly absorb Jinton, but that seems like a discussion you and bac2 are having

The bolded isn't a very consistent theme in the manga though (Kakashi never surpassed Minato, Hiruzen and Danzō never surpassed Tobirama, neither Darui nor Ay surpassed the Third Raikage, etc.) so I don't know how you can use that against me. Not to mention that Mū was portrayed as the superior of the two due to his more varied skillset ([

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]), and the fact that Mū stalemated Ōnoki, and afterwards the latter

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, indicating that they should at least be equals in their mastery over the Dust Release.

 

[Beans2]

I understand that, but what is suggesting that Jintons travelling speed is too fast for Samehadas absorption? IIRC, Deidaras and Onoki's/Mu's flight speed is fast enough to evade it.

No, jinton's traveling speed is extremely fast...Onoki had to counter with his own jinton VS Mu which means that he wasn't fast enough to dodge it. Deidara never avoided jinton and it wasn't implied that he could.