KIFFLOM vs Beansandcornbread2

[Transcendence]

My God, what a horrible debate! The second worst since Naruto x Man and shelk.

I.... Have no words. Even just skimming over this, they covered their bases very well. I don't think you're in a position to call a debate bad.

 

[EliteKakashi]

Toad Confrontation Chant was never mentioned in this thread at all, so i dont know where you got that from
Only Frog Call was mentioned here

I'm not a judge here, but honestly I'm a bit confused here myself.

TAC states in the opening post that Frog Song is banned. Frog Song is this:

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You used this in your debate here:

--With Ma and Pa here, kisame gets paralysed by frog call right off the bat, followed by naruto landing a SM Chou Oodama Rasengan (COR), or an FRS to finish kisame off with ease

Gama Rinsho(which is Toad Confrontation Chant) is this:

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There's a possibility that he could have meant either one, cause I've seen a bunch of people confuse the two, and both are pretty powerful techniques.

Frog Song instantly paralyzes the opponent, and it seems they have control over who it paralyzes because it

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Gama Rinsho is an instant game over for the opponent, IF they manage to get it off. It does take time for Fukasaku and Shima to synch and use this though.

So unless he has clarified which he actually meant at some point in this thread, I'm not sure what judges should do in regards to judging this.

You can say he actually meant Frog Song because he didn't want the argument of "Naruto has them use frog song instantly and then kills Kisame while he's powerless to do anything".

You can also say he meant Gama Rinsho because he didn't want the argument of "Naruto holds off Kisame long enough to let Fukasaku/Shima synch and then they end it."

Or hell, you could take it as meaning both because quite honestly both probably should be restricted in any vs thread where they're present, because it's very easy to argue either technique as being a game over for the opponent.

 

[Haizaki]

My God, what a horrible debate! The second worst since Naruto x Man and shelke.

Still better than your sub par debate with River Lmaooo where FT at?

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Still better than your sub par debate with River Lmaooo where FT at?

Lol, you remember that? Niga, that shit was pure trash. Let's not even go there right now lmao.

 

[Haizaki]

Lol, you remember that? Niga, that shit was pure trash. Let's not even go there right now lmao.

This dude is lame as always and he does have the nerve to talk here? you know what else he did? He argued with Draegod in a topic regarding Hanzo..Denied everything badly. Guess what else? This dude then used Hanzo in an official debate and used everything Drae said Lmaoooo.

 

[madvictory]

Wtf?
Until this thread, I have ALWAYS thought his name was BEANS, CORN, AND BREAD
Not BEANS AND CORN BREAD... and I've known him for a long time in this base......
What happened?!?!

 

[Zee U]

ok, though i did have paragraphs in mine

Toad Confrontation Chant was never mentioned in this thread at all, so i dont know where you got that from
Only Frog Call was mentioned here

Pretty sure you said Frog Song instead of Frog Call in some of your posts, can't finding it since i'm on mobile. EliteKakashi explained this above.

Asura Path is also called Shurado,
so whats the problem here?

You are right, mea culpa, forgot about that. Anyway iirc you said Nardo oneshotted Asura with physical strenght, while it was Senpou Rasengan. That if i'm not mistaken since i've got fever and i'm sick, so maybe i don't remember correctly.

his speed is still much faster than kisames,
and he blitzed a path that nigh blitzed sm jiraiya and tsuande,
claiming that kisame cant physically evade him, is not overrating

Was referring to his underwater speed. And that's not the case, since Kisame reacted to V2 B's Lariat, which isn't that slow either, linear movements are easy to react to and Naruto isn't a top tier speedster without KCM. Plus you could have posted Pain's reactions feats to strenghten your arguments, would have made your on ground speed based arguments better.

I had already provided scans that support FRS travelling speed is the same as a susanoo arrow which is remarkably fast, FRS formation speed isnt that slow either, (although that wasnt really overrating either or emphasised on either)

The process requires an handseal, formation of two clones and the formation of the tech. A tech whose formation is as fast as a punch like Daikodan is leagues above that. FRS' forte is its travelling speed.

Kisames owwn reserves + bijuu charka >>> kisames own reserves, so obviously the scale of his jutsus would be smaller without the external chakra

That isn't what's wrong, it lacks a logical passage behind it. You needed to prove how much Kisame's Dome took a toll on his chakra, to effectively make your argument work. If Kisame + hachibi chakra was 9, and his normal chakra was 3 (random numbers), if Dome costed 1 your argument would be null. If it costed 3 then you had a good point. You had to prove that it costed 3, instead of just saying "it will be smaller" or "kisame wouldn't be able to make one". Lack of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Don't know if i worded it correctly.

Explain how?

You are right here, mea culpa (again lol). I read your 2nd post and you countered that.

Explain how? i gave multiple counters

You merely stated "it wasn't shown to travel upwards", that isn't a counterargument. The dome is a compressed mass of water with Kisamehada at its epicenter, and it follows him wherever he moves. Why wouldn't it be capable of defy gravity like various other techs?

just because it was used on summons, doest mean that it doesnt work on human sized targets,
it paralyses based on the opponents hearing, not seeing what the size hass to do with that

Never said it wouldn't work, but Kisame isn't the same as a summon. It's small and fast, do you think they would use it when he can dodge (he is a sensor with Samehada) or counterattack before the sound goes off? It isn't IC for them, at all. Not to mention that your argument was "Naruto attacks in CQC and toads use Frog Song" the attack would have caught Naruto if he was near Kisame but if he wasn't Kisame could have used Waterdome off the bait or evade since there is no one pressuring him.

explain how,

You said it would oneshot Kisamehada, when Deva took a punch and a kick and was fine, yet was killed by a Rasengan from an exhausted Naruto. Maybe a lucky punch to the neck, maaaybe.

i was only on the defensive during the waterdome,
apart from that i wasnt,

Which took part of 3/4 of the debate. And was beans' main offensive argument.

whilst Beans flat out ignored combat on ground, not seeing why its my fault,

He didn't ignore it, he prevented it because he knew Kisame would be at disadvantage. Besides your only combat on ground argument was the initial one that was countered, then you failed to build a argument that convinced me enough that involved combat on ground after Naruto escaped the dome, since you failed to explain how would he escape it.

Beans was at disadvantage and yet still wrote convincing arguments and used exploits, that meant a lot to me.

 

[Apêx1]

T'was a good debate. Not seeing how it can be called bad, unless someone's definition of a good debate is both parities using indent and Lucida font with some unheard of thesaurus words.

 

[KidGamer65]

his speed is still much faster than kisames,
and he blitzed a path that nigh blitzed sm jiraiya and tsuande,
claiming that kisame cant physically evade him, is not overrating

Lol, this got me. Not only did Jiraiya NEVER get blitzed by any path of pain (sneak attacks are NOT blitzes) blitzing a tired, out of chakra, worn out Tsunade isn't a feat at all.

Kisame and his sword are fast enough to react to V1 Killer B, who is faster than SM Naruto. Dude getting blitzed by Naruto is a joke. Naruto's speed feats are good, but in no way are they that good. So yes, that is overrating him.

 

[Transcendence]

After reading Kifflom opener BAC2 can say goodbye to the tournament.

First off if I may; this is ironic coming from you since you ended up getting one shot by Apex Lol.

Anyways, after reading through this ridiculously long debate...

Formatting

I like the way you both handled how you both countered each other. Kiff was definitely much more to the point and didn't ramble on so in this case, he was more concise. Beans was more descriptive and gave more reasoning for his counters for every point he actually countered. There isn't much to say here. Besides basic grammar here, Beans "looked" better as in his posts were more clean and easier to read, but other than that, I'd say you guys are equal here. Kiff's efficiency to get to the point, versus Beans and his descriptive reasoning.

Actual reasoning

Thanks for making me read all of that guys. On to it. I really liked how both of you utilized basically the full arsenal of both characters. Kiff, you used summonings, FRS, other Rasengan variants, hell, even the Sage frogs and how they could help Naruto win. Beans, this is the first time I've seen anyone attempt to incorporate shark summonings into a Kisame debate, seeing as they are fundamentally inferior to most other summonings and are better utilized for normal Ninjutsu (like GSB). But this is where you guys sort of diverge and it went off a bit. Kiff, you started off really well with your opening and you tried to stay on the offensive (partially effective) for most of the debate. Your initial arguments were well done, but you relied too much on Naruto "blitzing" Kisame, even though SM Naruto's feats don't even suggest he's faster than V2 Bee, who's influenced by Bijuu chakra (and the manga has constantly stipulated Bijuu powered people like Jins aka Juubi Jins, are much faster than everyone else) and Naruto wasn't at the time. Also, you kept saying that it was "out of character" for Kisame to immediately go into the Water Dome (which was a good argument by Beans if I might add) but this is a VS match-up. With full intel, Kisame would want to win this in the most efficient and easy way possible and he won't risk ever letting Naruto get on the offensive. Using CQC as an argument is also fruitless since Kisame has full intel on Naruto and wouldn't dare engage him in CQC knowing about Sage Mode's physical enhancements and Frog Kata. But my biggest qualm here is that in your final reply to Beans, you literally repeated yourself over and over with the same arguments.

Beans, I really liked your arguments overall. Both of you guys used valuable manga evidence to support your claims but it worked out better for you. One I especially liked was how you deduced that Kisame would be able to stop Frog Call from happening via the Suiton Shockwave which would allow Kisame to enact the tactics you proposed (Dome -> Samehada -> Kill Naruto). Although, the way you incorporated Kisame's reflexive feats (not too impressive at all in Kisame's case as he couldn't even keep up physically with Bee) and the Shark summonings (which as I said before are quite unsatisfactory compared to better summons) wasn't all that good as I don't see how especially the summonings would aid against someone who is as strong as SM Naruto. Beyond that, I don't have any problems at all with how you laid all your arguments out and you countered very well.


This was a balanced debate and relatively close, but this could have been closer if Kiff didn't rely on conjecture and utilized more efficient tactics.

I give my vote to Beans.

 

[Transcendence]

Guys. Stop degrading the thread. It's getting way off topic and this is why the debate tournament in early 2013 went AWOL. Slow debates but then were flooded with other people coming in. Just stop.

 

[Beans2]

First off if I may; this is ironic coming from you since you ended up getting one shot by Apex Lol.

Anyways, after reading through this ridiculously long debate...

Formatting

I like the way you both handled how you both countered each other. Kiff was definitely much more to the point and didn't ramble on so in this case, he was more concise. Beans was more descriptive and gave more reasoning for his counters for every point he actually countered. There isn't much to say here. Besides basic grammar here, Beans "looked" better as in his posts were more clean and easier to read, but other than that, I'd say you guys are equal here. Kiff's efficiency to get to the point, versus Beans and his descriptive reasoning.

Actual reasoning

Thanks for making me read all of that guys. On to it. I really liked how both of you utilized basically the full arsenal of both characters. Kiff, you used summonings, FRS, other Rasengan variants, hell, even the Sage frogs and how they could help Naruto win. Beans, this is the first time I've seen anyone attempt to incorporate shark summonings into a Kisame debate, seeing as they are fundamentally inferior to most other summonings and are better utilized for normal Ninjutsu (like GSB). But this is where you guys sort of diverge and it went off a bit. Kiff, you started off really well with your opening and you tried to stay on the offensive (partially effective) for most of the debate. Your initial arguments were well done, but you relied too much on Naruto "blitzing" Kisame, even though SM Naruto's feats don't even suggest he's faster than V2 Bee, who's influenced by Bijuu chakra (and the manga has constantly stipulated Bijuu powered people like Jins aka Juubi Jins, are much faster than everyone else) and Naruto wasn't at the time. Also, you kept saying that it was "out of character" for Kisame to immediately go into the Water Dome (which was a good argument by Beans if I might add) but this is a VS match-up. With full intel, Kisame would want to win this in the most efficient and easy way possible and he won't risk ever letting Naruto get on the offensive. Using CQC as an argument is also fruitless since Kisame has full intel on Naruto and wouldn't dare engage him in CQC knowing about Sage Mode's physical enhancements and Frog Kata. But my biggest qualm here is that in your final reply to Beans, you literally repeated yourself over and over with the same arguments.

Beans, I really liked your arguments overall. Both of you guys used valuable manga evidence to support your claims but it worked out better for you. One I especially liked was how you deduced that Kisame would be able to stop Frog Call from happening via the Suiton Shockwave which would allow Kisame to enact the tactics you proposed (Dome -> Samehada -> Kill Naruto). Although, the way you incorporated Kisame's reflexive feats (not too impressive at all in Kisame's case as he couldn't even keep up physically with Bee) and the Shark summonings (which as I said before are quite unsatisfactory compared to better summons) wasn't all that good as I don't see how especially the summonings would aid against someone who is as strong as SM Naruto. Beyond that, I don't have any problems at all with how you laid all your arguments out and you countered very well.


This was a balanced debate and relatively close, but this could have been closer if Kiff didn't rely on conjecture and utilized more efficient tactics.

I give my vote to Beans.

Thanks for posting a judgment. I just have a couple questions.

Kiff was definitely much more to the point and didn't ramble on so in this case, he was more concise.

Where did I ramble on? I actually remember keeping my points short and relevant and didn't make my posts unncecessarily long like Kifflom did at times.

the way you incorporated Kisame's reflexive feats (not too impressive at all in Kisame's case as he couldn't even keep up physically with Bee)

Actually Kisame and Samehada reacted to V1 Bee and could keep up with him, that is a very impressive reaction feat and I showed it proving Naruto can't outright blitz him like Kifflom said he would.

and the Shark summonings (which as I said before are quite unsatisfactory compared to better summons)

Could you explain? I think I used them well in my argument, I explained that they were fast underwater so a large number of sharks (Kisame can compensate quality for quantity and summon up to 1,000) could hold off SM clones and stall for time so Naruto wouldn't be able to outmuscle hundreds of sharks, and then swim to the edge of the water dome, all before running out of breath. I also explained how the sharks could swarm the toads and go for vulnerable spots (their eyes) while Kifflom didn't actually counter this and only kept stating that toads were superior summons to sharks.

Guys. Stop degrading the thread. It's getting way off topic and this is why the debate tournament in early 2013 went AWOL. Slow debates but then were flooded with other people coming in. Just stop.

Sorry, I won't respond to that troll again.

 

[Itachi of the Uchiha clan]

Kisame stomps
simple as that.

 

[TRE MERCER]

First off if I may; this is ironic coming from you since you ended up getting one shot by Apex Lol.

Why are you getting mad for people saying this debate wasn't shit? L0l it's not yours. Also BAC lost like i said he would your dismissed baby girl. ​

 

[Beans2]

Why are you getting mad for people saying this debate wasn't shit? L0l it's not yours. Also BAC lost like i said he would your dismissed baby girl. ​

Actually I won so you were wrong.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Actually I won so you were wrong.

You won? ​

 

[AnonymousShinobi]

BAC won. I'm not a judge, but I did read both arguments thoroughly, and Imo BAC won

 

[Transcendence]

Why are you getting mad for people saying this debate wasn't shit? L0l it's not yours. Also BAC lost like i said he would your dismissed baby girl. ​

BAC won. And I'm not mad at all. I just found a lot of irony in the fact that you thought that this debate was over in one post, when in actuality it went back and forth whereas yours was over the moment Apex started typing.

 

[TRE MERCER]

BAC won. And I'm not mad at all. I just found a lot of irony in the fact that you thought that this debate was over in one post, when in actuality it went back and forth whereas yours was over the moment Apex started typing.

I quit cuz. You act like i conceded or something i simply didn't feel like debating on that topic anymore. Also you replied to comment weeks old. ​

 

[Draegod]

Lol, this got me. Not only did Jiraiya NEVER get blitzed by any path of pain (sneak attacks are NOT blitzes) blitzing a tired, out of chakra, worn out Tsunade isn't a feat at all.

Kisame and his sword are fast enough to react to V1 Killer B, who is faster than SM Naruto. Dude getting blitzed by Naruto is a joke. Naruto's speed feats are good, but in no way are they that good. So yes, that is overrating him.

V1 bee never blitz'd (shunshin'd) so your entire post was irrelevant. Unless you were talking about standard running speed then Naruto shunshin is faster then bee's standard running speed. Not to mention he was Knocked out by Base Guy and caught off gaurd by Base Lee who are both (at base)slower then SM Naruto. Just pointing that out.