[VS] Kidomaru vs Haku

[RedRobin]

Being persistent with Haku being a girl, are we?:hmm: Kidomaru's stamps since its not hard to deduce Naruto's performance against him.

Yet Haku got the drop on Sai who would shit on Land of the waves arc Naruto w/ Kyuubi boost like nothing.

Good match up. This match up has never been discussed before which is pretty crazy.

 

[Apêx1]

Probably because of that.

Lmfao, since when was his gold sticky armour the same substance as his webs? Last I checked his gold sticky armour originates as a liquid and then solidifies when it makes contact with air, that's nothing like his webs. Also, webs have chakra flowing within them, sticky armor does not. Webs are chewed to be solidified, sticky armor is not.

 

[Haizaki]

Lol @ everyone saying Kido stomps her speed wise, when last I checked Neji was astonished by Lee's speed and Sasuke's speed with Chidori=Lee's speed. Kakashi's speed with Raikirr>>>Sasuke's speed and Lee's speed. All Haku needs to do is place a mirror around Kidomaru and smash him with a 1000 water needles for gg. Inb4 Kidomaru can react when Neji pretty much blitzed him towards the end of their fight from a huge distance.

Flawed logic.

- Neji wasn't surprised by Base Lee..He was only surprised by Gated Lee and it was outright stated by Gai that HL requiring all 5 Gates was needed in order to get past Neji.

- Lee is much faster than Sasuke but Base Lee is either qual or slightly faster than him. Either way this is irrelevant since the Lee you're using never astonished Neji.

- Sasuke who had not obtained Lee's speed..Who had not unlocked the Sharingan yet was getting too much for Haku speedways before the mirror

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..Upon unlocking the Sharingan he matched him in speed while using the mirrors

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Base Lee with weights already prove to be too much for this version of Sasuke.

- KN0 Naruto blitz Haku and he also blitz Sasuke who obtained Lee's speed and became much superior to Haku...Neji kept with him in their fight. Says a lot. Kido could at least react to Neji from his blindspot, I showed this in first page and Haku doesn't have the speed to outright blitz him.

- Haku didn't react to Kakashi's full speed....Unless you think Sakura can visually follow him like in the bottom

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and this is a clear view to show she was looking towards his direction

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but yet couldn't follow Sasuke later on.

Haku is fast but not fast enough to blitz Kidomaru....Kido can match faster ones. Besides, 1000 needles aren't getting past CM2 with an added armor.

 

[Curse Mark]

Lmfao, since when was his gold sticky armour the same substance as his webs? Last I checked his gold sticky armour originates as a liquid and then solidifies when it makes contact with air, that's nothing like his webs. Also, webs have chakra flowing within them, sticky armor does not. Webs are chewed to be solidified, sticky armor is not.

This was explicitly states in the manga.

 

[Apêx1]

Flawed logic.

- Neji wasn't surprised by Base Lee..He was only surprised by Gated Lee and it was outright stated by Gai that HL requiring all 5 Gates was needed in order to get past Neji.

Neji couldn't believe Lee's speed

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and Lee suggested that 5G was for defeating him, he is implying that it's enough to defeat Neji. Gai implied this as well

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.

- Lee is much faster than Sasuke but Base Lee is either qual or slightly faster than him. Either way this is irrelevant since the Lee you're using never astonished Neji.

- Sasuke who had not obtained Lee's speed..Who had not unlocked the Sharingan yet was getting too much for Haku speedways before the mirror

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..Upon unlocking the Sharingan he matched him in speed while using the mirrors

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Base Lee with weights already prove to be too much for this version of Sasuke.

Base with no weights Lee vs Gaara was still getting occasionally blocked by Lee's auto defence

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and Base Lee couldn't dodge his attack

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Yet when Sasuke fought Gaara he was bypassing his auto-defence with ease

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Gai says HERE that he's about as fast as Lee without weights

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and Lee says they have identical speeds here

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. And btw, I never said Haku's Demonic Mirror Crystals would be the thing to win this, I'm saying only one Ice Mirror wins this, which is where her top speed lies. The longer she uses her Demonic Mirror Crystals the slower she gets. She was surprising War Arc Sai and even outsped Kakashi. That's all I need to support my argument.

- KN0 Naruto blitz Haku and he also blitz Sasuke who obtained Lee's speed and became much superior to Haku...Neji kept with him in their fight. Says a lot. Kido could at least react to Neji from his blindspot, I showed this in first page and Haku doesn't have the speed to outright blitz him.

It's a baseless claim to suggest they had equal amounts of Kyuubi chakra though. KN0 can have some Kyuubi chakra or h can have tonnes of it. Against Haku he obviously had tonnes of it. Look at this

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He had claws, instant healing, was literally releasing chakra from his body to deflect kunai's as a chakra roar, he was in a mindless state and thus increased fighting levels, single punch sent Haku 10+meters AFTER it broke the durable ice mirror. I would like you to notice in the Neji fight

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Naruto's eyes weren't Kyuubi like and he had not developed any claws nor fox like teeth. Even his small scratches weren't healing

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. The chakra he had in both situations were not even close to comparable, so thank you for proving my

- Haku didn't react to Kakashi's full speed....Unless you think Sakura can visually follow him like in the bottom

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and this is a clear view to show she was looking towards his direction

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but yet couldn't follow Sasuke later on.

Haku is fast but not fast enough to blitz Kidomaru....Kido can match faster ones. Besides, 1000 needles aren't getting past CM2 with an added armor.

Lol.. This isn't even a counter argument, she visually followed Kakashi in the Mist, clearly. Raikiri requires a certain speed to be used. That speed was fast enough to shit on Gaara's auto-defence, and I can also guarantee you Kakashi's running speed is much faster then Sasuke's. Sakura was keeping up just fine with Lee's no weights speed too

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, I don't see what's so special about that. And I didn't say Kakashi's Shunshin, merely his top running speed, which is what every shinobi uses 99% of the time. Neji had a 4 in speed (Kido had 3) during the first DB and did just fine vs Kidomaru, Haku's speed is a 4 in Base and his speed while using the mirrors is multiple times greater then his regular movement speed. With mirrors, as I said, she reacted to Kakashi's Raikiri speed from a large distance. Haku is definitely blitzing Kidomaru if she can move much faster then Base Lee's speed whilst utilising her mirrors. Nothing leads me to believe Kidomaru will react, nothing at all.

This was explicitly states in the manga.

Bring the scans because it never happened.

 

[TRE MERCER]

Haku gets blitzed not need for a debate here.

Is this dude really comparing this Sasuke

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To the one that fought with Gaara? Smh the speed gab is huge. Sasuke before training couldn't even properly fight weighted Lee his speed against Gaara was on par if not superior to Lee without the weights.​

 

[Haizaki]

Neji couldn't believe Lee's speed

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and Lee suggested that 5G was for defeating him, he is implying that it's enough to defeat Neji. Gai implied this as well

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.

That's 5G Lee...My argument doesn't go against this especially when I stated he was astonished by 5G Lee and not Base Lee which you stated:

Neji was astonished by Lee's speed and Sasuke's speed with Chidori=Lee's speed

Both are Taijutsu specialist and the answer to defeating Neji lies in the High speed combo like Gai says..This was due to the fact that Lee couldn't get past his defenses because of his reactions unless in that Gate, using that technique. If not, why would it require the 5G and this sort of speed to take someone who uses strictly Taijutsu down? To further supports this, after Gai makes that statement he then states "There's no way the sand could keep up" suggesting that if it could beat Neji, there was no way the sand could keep up. Meaning Neji was the ultimate completely shutting down the notation of the sand being able to react. Either way anything slower than the 4th-5th Gates speed gets reacted to

Base with no weights Lee vs Gaara was still getting occasionally blocked by Lee's auto defence

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and Base Lee couldn't dodge his attack

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Pointless argument since Lee was already getting used to it...What debunks this is Lee surpassed it so this is irrelevant

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and the sand could no longer keep up again

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@SecondScan, Bad argument because that was after Lee used Primary argument making him weak to even move

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Yet when Sasuke fought Gaara he was bypassing his auto-defence with ease

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Gai says HERE that he's about as fast as Lee without weights

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and Lee says they have identical speeds here

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. And btw, I never said Haku's Demonic Mirror Crystals would be the thing to win this, I'm saying only one Ice Mirror wins this, which is where her top speed lies. The longer she uses her Demonic Mirror Crystals the slower she gets. She was surprising War Arc Sai and even outsped Kakashi. That's all I need to support my argument.

What even deals with this is the fact that Sasuke is outright shown in Lee's image in that first scan. No comparison asides this:

@Bold She surprised Sai from behind even though that's not a good representative of good speed when we're talking about someone who had 0 intel on Haku. Sai isn't even a speedster or specifically none for his reactions

Stop with the Kakashi bit as it makes no sense. You're suggesting Haku can outspeed Kakashi when that same Haku was matched by 2T Sasuke in speed.. Makes zero sense.

Plus I gave a good reason why that wasn't Kakashi speed especially when he's faster than all these youngsters in their Base.

It's a baseless claim to suggest they had equal amounts of Kyuubi chakra though. KN0 can have some Kyuubi chakra or h can have tonnes of it. Against Haku he obviously had tonnes of it. Look at this

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To suggest there was a difference when he was enhanced with the same power without no proof is Baseless...Another thing that's really bad with this argument is how you're suggesting he "obviously had tonnes against Haku" but then suggesting he probably didn't against the others. That's not how it works, you have to prove it to us and also use strong evidence that suggest the Kyuubi power varied. Not to to mention you have to show us the difference because there's none from what I'm seeing especially when it's the same cloak enhancing him

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Just that in this case he had better control of it but it was still the same cloak enhancing him as he told the Kyuubi to lend him the power

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He had claws, instant healing, was literally releasing chakra from his body to deflect kunai's as a chakra roar, he was in a mindless state and thus increased fighting levels, single punch sent Haku 10+meters AFTER it broke the durable ice mirror. I would like you to notice in the Neji fight

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Naruto's eyes weren't Kyuubi like and he had not developed any claws nor fox like teeth. Even his small scratches weren't healing

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. The chakra he had in both situations were not even close to comparable, so thank you for proving my

He had claws against Sasuke and Vote, could even replicate the Roar and could heal but he was letting anger take over and could still maintain it to an extent. I don't think this changes the fact that he was enhanced in his KN0 state by the same cloak. Not to mention whenever Naruto gets in this sort of state(Claws and eyes), it's usually due to letting deep anger takeover...Not because of a power difference. There was no anger against Neji compared to this state but he was using the Nine tails power in KN0 state to his control.

Lol.. This isn't even a counter argument, she visually followed Kakashi in the Mist, clearly.
Raikiri requires a certain speed to be used. That speed was fast enough to shit on Gaara's auto-defence, and I can also guarantee you Kakashi's running speed is much faster then Sasuke's. Sakura was keeping up just fine with Lee's no weights speed too

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, I don't see what's so special about that. And I didn't say Kakashi's Shunshin, merely his top running speed, which is what every shinobi uses 99% of the time. Neji had a 4 in speed (Kido had 3) during the first DB and did just fine vs Kidomaru, Haku's speed is a 4 in Base and his speed while using the mirrors is multiple times greater then his regular movement speed. With mirrors, as I said, she reacted to Kakashi's Raikiri speed from a large distance. Haku is definitely blitzing Kidomaru if she can move much faster then Base Lee's speed whilst utilising her mirrors. Nothing leads me to believe Kidomaru will react, nothing at all.

Lol please it was clear she did..Stop arguing what was clearly shown which was Sakura seeing him move and being able to scream "He's moving" as a reaction before he could land Raikiri. Against Lee when did she only spoke after he landed his attacks. You can't suggest Haku outspeed Kakashi when I've shown numerous counters that deal with this.

- 2T Sasuke matched his speed to protect Naruto ad what you're saying is haiku could form a seal to create a mirror and catch Kakashi's speed after he was moving? Lmao. Let's stop.

I'm going to have to tell you once again that Haku isn't moving faster than Base Lee ever. Especially when he was matched by 2T Sasuke without that speed? How? Someone that would get lolblitz by Base Lee with no weights when he couldn't keep up with his speed with weights. Lmao please Haku didn't get enough time to shine.



Not to mention as soon as Kido Sunshin's into the woods, it's game over.

 

[Curse Mark]

Neji couldn't believe Lee's speed

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and Lee suggested that 5G was for defeating him, he is implying that it's enough to defeat Neji. Gai implied this as well

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.



Base with no weights Lee vs Gaara was still getting occasionally blocked by Lee's auto defence

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and Base Lee couldn't dodge his attack

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Yet when Sasuke fought Gaara he was bypassing his auto-defence with ease

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Gai says HERE that he's about as fast as Lee without weights

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and Lee says they have identical speeds here

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. And btw, I never said Haku's Demonic Mirror Crystals would be the thing to win this, I'm saying only one Ice Mirror wins this, which is where her top speed lies. The longer she uses her Demonic Mirror Crystals the slower she gets. She was surprising War Arc Sai and even outsped Kakashi. That's all I need to support my argument.




It's a baseless claim to suggest they had equal amounts of Kyuubi chakra though. KN0 can have some Kyuubi chakra or h can have tonnes of it. Against Haku he obviously had tonnes of it. Look at this

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He had claws, instant healing, was literally releasing chakra from his body to deflect kunai's as a chakra roar, he was in a mindless state and thus increased fighting levels, single punch sent Haku 10+meters AFTER it broke the durable ice mirror. I would like you to notice in the Neji fight

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Naruto's eyes weren't Kyuubi like and he had not developed any claws nor fox like teeth. Even his small scratches weren't healing

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. The chakra he had in both situations were not even close to comparable, so thank you for proving my



Lol.. This isn't even a counter argument, she visually followed Kakashi in the Mist, clearly. Raikiri requires a certain speed to be used. That speed was fast enough to shit on Gaara's auto-defence, and I can also guarantee you Kakashi's running speed is much faster then Sasuke's. Sakura was keeping up just fine with Lee's no weights speed too

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, I don't see what's so special about that. And I didn't say Kakashi's Shunshin, merely his top running speed, which is what every shinobi uses 99% of the time. Neji had a 4 in speed (Kido had 3) during the first DB and did just fine vs Kidomaru, Haku's speed is a 4 in Base and his speed while using the mirrors is multiple times greater then his regular movement speed. With mirrors, as I said, she reacted to Kakashi's Raikiri speed from a large distance. Haku is definitely blitzing Kidomaru if she can move much faster then Base Lee's speed whilst utilising her mirrors. Nothing leads me to believe Kidomaru will react, nothing at all.



Bring the scans because it never happened.

First off addressing KN0 chakra, the reason naruto didnt have eyes, fangs, overlowing chakra etc. was because he was controlling kyuubi's chakra not just releasing it naturally. Ask Hiruzen:

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Secondly addressing the material Kido uses. I'll show scans of him using webs that solidfy into the gold material and him saying that the material he spits is the same that comes from his pores.

Him surviving gentle fist and being blasted through a massive tree trunk and detailing his KKG:

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Next, Neji observing that his KKG is him mixing chakra with body fluid:

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Kido stretching his webs and then they solidify into the gold:

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Kido demonstrating he has such detailed control over his KKG, He made gold weapons attached to webs.

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An example of his web solidifying as it flies into a spear:

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[Apêx1]

First off addressing KN0 chakra, the reason naruto didnt have eyes, fangs, overlowing chakra etc. was because he was controlling kyuubi's chakra not just releasing it naturally. Ask Hiruzen:

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Secondly addressing the material Kido uses. I'll show scans of him using webs that solidfy into the gold material and him saying that the material he spits is the same that comes from his pores.

Him surviving gentle fist and being blasted through a massive tree trunk and detailing his KKG:

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Next, Neji observing that his KKG is him mixing chakra with body fluid:

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Kido stretching his webs and then they solidify into the gold:

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Kido demonstrating he has such detailed control over his KKG, He made gold weapons attached to webs.

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An example of his web solidifying as it flies into a spear:

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I concede on everything related to Sticky Gold Armor.

@Kyuubi example. He can control it because it's in a lesser quantity. Naruto was controlling the Kyuubi's chakra here just fine [

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] but still had the claws, teeth, healing, etc. Same thing

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and on many occasions, the manifesttion of Kyuubi like features is an indicator of amount of chakra. The ONLY time Naruto has ever been able to roar chakra is against Haku and in v1/v2/BM state. No other time has he had as much Kyuubi chakra in KN0 as he did vs Haku iirc. Naruto's uppercut on Neji

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was also incomparable to the punch he used on Haku, in terms of strength.

 

[Curse Mark]

I concede on everything related to Sticky Gold Armor.

@Kyuubi example. He can control it because it's in a lesser quantity. Naruto was controlling the Kyuubi's chakra here just fine [

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] but still had the claws, teeth, healing, etc. Same thing

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and on many occasions, the manifesttion of Kyuubi like features is an indicator of amount of chakra. The ONLY time Naruto has ever been able to roar chakra is against Haku and in v1/v2/BM state. No other time has he had as much Kyuubi chakra in KN0 as he did vs Haku iirc. Naruto's uppercut on Neji

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was also incomparable to the punch he used on Haku, in terms of strength.

In your first example he had no shroud and in the second it was like 3+ years later after he got trained on how to use 9 tails chakra even further. There's a difference between an uppercut and a haymaker, it's difficult to compare the power behind the two. The first normally causes someone just to drop or in extreme(unrealistic) cases go airborne while the latter knocks them off balance, putting all the weight of the attacker onto the victim.