[VS] KCM Naruto VS Edo Madara's 25 Susanoo clones

[Unorthodox]

Unless you want to argue that each of the clones were capable of using PS, then the power of the clone's katons would be drastically reduced in the same proportion.

Even if this was true witch its not splitting a Katon of that size into 25 is still much much bigger than any rasenshuriken created given Madara the easy win

 

[lanakui8]

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ems madaras susano is more durable than ms sasukes on equal levels. stop comparing them.

If that's your argument, then you've just dug your own grave. Not only was Ei in V2 when he hit MS Sasuke's susanoo, but the ribcage that madara used to guard himself against the attack was far larger than sasuke's. So nope, showing me an example of madara using a much larger ribcage to block a weaker attack is in no way shape or form positive evidence for madara's susanoo being more durable than MS sasuke's if both are at the same level and size.

ei+onokis combo does pack more power than rasenshuriken considering that it broke madaras susano while chou odama rasenshuriken couldnt even destroy madaras body.

Yep, so once again this is a flat out concession on your part as you've been forced to now argue that utterly attrocious assertion that a senpou Chou oodama rasenshuriken didn't destroy madara's body.

there is no burden of proof on my part. the manga stated that rasenshuriken would not breach susano. a stronger frs could not put down madara who is less durable than his susano.

Once again, another concession as you've been forced to flat out lie about manga statements. In no way shape or form did the manga ever alude to rasenshuriken not being able to breach susanoo, at the absolute best it alluded to rasenshuriken not being able to kill madara while he's in susanoo, most probably the manga wasn't even talking about power but rather the absolute defense of susanoo being able to guard against all external attacks.

danzos empowered fuuton broke susano. rasenshuriken didnt destroy madara.

Concession accepted.

what do you think gaara was talking about when he said that external attacks would not work? madaras real body? external attacks would not work on susano, so gaara used the sand under madara feet to remove him from susano.
just accept that you dont have an argument because this is getting tedious.

Gaara was talking about killing madara, that's obviously there goal and that's what he was alluding to. External attacks obviously DO work on susanoo, and gaara knew this when sasuke was forced to level up his ribcage when gaara and co attacked him at the summit. Gaara's obviously not making a no limits statement that no external attack will work, and he's obviously not talking about susanoo since external attacks DO work on susanoo, what he's talking about is attacking the guy inside susanoo since while susanoo is up, external attacks don't work on him.

all of this rubbish is countered by hashiramas statement of chou odama rasenshuriken not being able to take down madara.
thats just another nail in the coffin for your argument. rasenshuriken was already stated to not be able to breach susano and an even stronger version could not put madara down with a direct hit.

both feats and statements say that susano,even in its early stages, tank rasenshuriken with no damage.

Hashirama was obviously talking about chou oodama rasenshurikens' inability to defeat madara because he's an edo, which is why he immediately says that they have to wait for a shinobi to seal madara.

are you daft? hashirama knows that madara was an edo tensei. him saying that narutos rasenshuriken wasnt enough to put him down means that it wasnt strong enough to destroy his body so he could be sealed.

So what if hashirama knows that? He was just stating the obvious just like he continues to state the obvious when he says that we completely immobilized him and now we have to wait for a shinobi to seal him. If you look at the page you are refering to, you'll notice hashirama had just dropped his gates on madara indicated by the dust kicked up from the impact of the gates and the ground. However, so much time has passed since the rasenshuriken exploded that there's not even a trace of dust or debri floating around from the explosion. The only possible way that the Chou oodama rasenshuriken could have immobilized madara for such a long time that all the dust and debri kicked up by the rasenshuriken's explosion has settled is if it destroyed him. Then there's the fact that if madara had the durability to tank a chou oodama rasenshuriken, he would be massively superior to sandaime raikage's duarability. Are you going to assert that?

madaras durability compared to the raikage is irrelevant.
regardless of what the 3rd raikage can or cannot tank, madara was not destroyed by narutos rasenshuriken as shown and stated in the manga.
lee was kyuubi powered and he received a boost in momentum from gai.

Concession accepted once again. The bolded is absolutely NECESSARY for your case to hold water. IF madara can tank a chou oodama rasenshuriken, then his durability far surpasses sandaime raikage's. If you don't believe that, then it logically follows that he didn't tank SM chou oodama rasenshuriken.

kuramas tails are larger than his body. whats so hard to understand?

Concession accepted once again as no one with a shred of honesty or orientation for truth would say that the susanoo beneath naruto's tail in the scan that I provided was as big as Naruto's BM avatar which is literally in the same picture for size comparison.

naruto blindsided him while he was focused on the other biju. that has no bearing on a scenario where they are both facing each other.

Why not? The only reason you claim that BM Naruto's avatar = V3 legged susanoo is because sasuke fought alongside naruto. If BM Naruto fodder-pinning madara's Senpou enhanced with a single tail has no bearing on a 1 vs 1 situation, then naruto and sasuke fighting an opponent together has no bearing on a situation where they fight each other. You'd have to analyze that by feats. And by feats, V3 even when powered up by yin+yang kyuubi chakra and juugo's senjutsu gets utterly humiliated.

i never stated that each of madaras clones were stronger than ems sasuke. you need to actually correctly comprehend what you are reading.

You argument necessitates that EMS Sasuke was unable to use legged susanoo, how does sasuke stand a chance against legged susanoos if he can't even use them himself?

there is no such thing as a "rikudo PS". the rinnegan has nothing to do with it. susano gets no stronger past the complete body form. if you took the rinnegan from sasuke, he would still retain the exact same PS. take six paths senjutsu away from naruto and sasukes PS one shots him.

sasuke could use PS before gaining hagoromos chakra.

the more an uchihas chakra is empowered(their mastery of susano is also a factor), the more likely it is that they can invoke a complete body susano. thats it. there is no such thing as a "six paths susano".
if an uchiha invokes a complete body susano, it ends there. gaining the rinnegan does not affect it other than it gaining mugen tsukiyomi resistance through the user.

So this is one massively huge assertion backed up by zero evidence and therefore it's utterly worthless. If you want to argue that Sasuke's EMS PS = rinnegan Sasuke's PS you have to back it up by an argument. Sasuke's PS feats completely dump on EMS Madara's PS feats, and if Sasuke's using rikudou chakra, then obviously his attacks and jutsu would all be enhanced by that chakra. So nope, literally zero evidence for your argument and an overwhelming amount of evidence for the alternative.

so, you're mad because naruto is not as strong as you want him to be? got it. anyone with sense knows that your argument is bullshit.
narutos clones destroying an army of susano with rasenshuriken is complete lunacy, not when an even stronger version cannot destroy madara.
BM naruto is on the level of V3 susano. he can match PS in his six paths senjutsu state.

Yep, concessionary dishonesty motivated by pure unadulterated character bias has forced you to make completely absurd assertions such as SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken didn't even destroy edo madara's body, an assertion that would have edo madara's durability far beyond sandaime raikages.

Your dishonesty has forced you to assert that the susanoo under naruto's tail in this scan is just as big as Naruto's mech, and has again forced you to assert that a PS powered by rikudou's chakra and the sharinnegan = an EMS PS, an assertion that you've provided literally zero evidence for, and an assertion that's destroyed by an overwhelming amount of evidence against.

I'm not mad because naruto isn't as strong as X, because the arguments for him being where I place him are overwhelmingly more supported than the arguments you've been forced to bring up in order to push your personal agenda. If I had to give a reason for why I get emotional, it's because I'm literally baffled by the amount of dishonesty that you've stooped to in order to push your own argument. There's no reason for it, it doesn't matter how dishonest of an argument you make, at the end of the day, reality is still reality, and you know that. That leads me to believe that your only goal is to influence others with your lies in hopes that if enough people believe the lie, then you've accomplished something. And that is one of the most disgusting things a human could possibly decide to do.

 

[lanakui8]

Even if this was true witch its not splitting a Katon of that size into 25 is still much much bigger than any rasenshuriken created given Madara the easy win

Why would madara get an easy win? Katon is only > fuuton if both are on the same level, FRS is so high up that only enton of the same level can equal it.

MAdara's weakened katons aren't going to do anything to a fuuton that does this when it explodes:

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or a fuuton that's more powerful than this attack:

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If Naruto's

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not even the real madara's katons are going to turn back a FRS.

Then there's that fact that even if madara could somehow use enton and turn back naruto's rasenshurikens, naruto still has access to the far stronger bijuu rasengan which madara can't turn back or withstand with his susanoos.

 

[TheSages456]

If that's your argument, then you've just dug your own grave. Not only was Ei in V2 when he hit MS Sasuke's susanoo, but the ribcage that madara used to guard himself against the attack was far larger than sasuke's. So nope, showing me an example of madara using a much larger ribcage to block a weaker attack is in no way shape or form positive evidence for madara's susanoo being more durable than MS sasuke's if both are at the same level and size.

V2 merely increases Eis speed, not his strength and he stopped right before he hit sasuke, so he was not moving at full speed.
the fact that the ribcage from an ems susano took an actual technique from Ei with absolutely no damage shows that ems susano>ms susano on equal levels.

Yep, so once again this is a flat out concession on your part as you've been forced to now argue that utterly attrocious assertion that a senpou Chou oodama rasenshuriken didn't destroy madara's body.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

this is ridiculous. its outright stated that rasenshuriken didnt destroy madara. you can say "concession accepted" all you want but you are still wrong.

if narutos jutsu had destroyed madara, he wouldve been sealed on the spot.

Once again, another concession as you've been forced to flat out lie about manga statements. In no way shape or form did the manga ever alude to rasenshuriken not being able to breach susanoo, at the absolute best it alluded to rasenshuriken not being able to kill madara while he's in susanoo, most probably the manga wasn't even talking about power but rather the absolute defense of susanoo being able to guard against all external attacks.

you are just arguing semantics. the result remains the same with rasenshuriken not being able to breach susano.

Gaara was talking about killing madara, that's obviously there goal and that's what he was alluding to. External attacks obviously DO work on susanoo, and gaara knew this when sasuke was forced to level up his ribcage when gaara and co attacked him at the summit. Gaara's obviously not making a no limits statement that no external attack will work, and he's obviously not talking about susanoo since external attacks DO work on susanoo, what he's talking about is attacking the guy inside susanoo since while susanoo is up, external attacks don't work on him.

exactly, external attacks will not work while susano is up, which is why gaara had to pull madara out of his susano, since rasenshuriken would have just been tanked.

Hashirama was obviously talking about chou oodama rasenshurikens' inability to defeat madara because he's an edo, which is why he immediately says that they have to wait for a shinobi to seal madara.

do you realize how little sense this makes? narutos jutsu didnt put him down to the point where he could be sealed. he was not destroyed. thats the only possible interpretation.

you are assuming that everytime an edo tensei is not shown directly after taking an attack, they were obviously destroyed. even if hashiramas statement did not exist, you would be unable to prove that madara was destroyed. thats how bad you argument is. madara not being destroyed is outright stated, and you dont even want to believe that.

So what if hashirama knows that? He was just stating the obvious just like he continues to state the obvious when he says that we completely immobilized him and now we have to wait for a shinobi to seal him. If you look at the page you are refering to, you'll notice hashirama had just dropped his gates on madara indicated by the dust kicked up from the impact of the gates and the ground. However, so much time has passed since the rasenshuriken exploded that there's not even a trace of dust or debri floating around from the explosion. The only possible way that the Chou oodama rasenshuriken could have immobilized madara for such a long time that all the dust and debri kicked up by the rasenshuriken's explosion has settled is if it destroyed him. Then there's the fact that if madara had the durability to tank a chou oodama rasenshuriken, he would be massively superior to sandaime raikage's duarability. Are you going to assert that?

this is your argument now? dust? there is dust floating around multiple pages after madara is shown to be immobilized, so not only is your point reaching, its invalid.

Concession accepted once again. The bolded is absolutely NECESSARY for your case to hold water. IF madara can tank a chou oodama rasenshuriken, then his durability far surpasses sandaime raikage's. If you don't believe that, then it logically follows that he didn't tank SM chou oodama rasenshuriken.

how about, madara tanked it because the manga said so?

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.


i dont have to assert anything. all i have to do is bring up hashirama statement.

Concession accepted once again as no one with a shred of honesty or orientation for truth would say that the susanoo beneath naruto's tail in the scan that I provided was as big as Naruto's BM avatar which is literally in the same picture for size comparison.

madaras susano is flat on the ground and the avatar is upright. there is no size comparison to be made. the tails are much bigger than the body but you keep ignoring this and screaming "concession accepted".

Why not? The only reason you claim that BM Naruto's avatar = V3 legged susanoo is because sasuke fought alongside naruto. If BM Naruto fodder-pinning madara's Senpou enhanced with a single tail has no bearing on a 1 vs 1 situation, then naruto and sasuke fighting an opponent together has no bearing on a situation where they fight each other. You'd have to analyze that by feats. And by feats, V3 even when powered up by yin+yang kyuubi chakra and juugo's senjutsu gets utterly humiliated.

being taken down in a sneak attack=/=showing equal feats while fighting alongside someone.
sasukes V3 susano is no different with or without the kyuubis chakra. the chakra merely empowered him to the point where he could use it.

You argument necessitates that EMS Sasuke was unable to use legged susanoo, how does sasuke stand a chance against legged susanoos if he can't even use them himself?

my argument does not necessitate that. there are a bunch of arbitrary assumptions on your part about rasenshuriken obliterating susano which necessitates that you outright ignore the manga.

So this is one massively huge assertion backed up by zero evidence and therefore it's utterly worthless. If you want to argue that Sasuke's EMS PS = rinnegan Sasuke's PS you have to back it up by an argument. Sasuke's PS feats completely dump on EMS Madara's PS feats, and if Sasuke's using rikudou chakra, then obviously his attacks and jutsu would all be enhanced by that chakra. So nope, literally zero evidence for your argument and an overwhelming amount of evidence for the alternative.

his susano was only enhanced in the sense that the chakra allowed it to evolve, thus becoming stronger. nothing implies thats susanos sword slashes became stronger. absolutely nothing.
sasukes perfect susano doesnt completely dump on madaras by feats.

Yep, concessionary dishonesty motivated by pure unadulterated character bias has forced you to make completely absurd assertions such as SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken didn't even destroy edo madara's body, an assertion that would have edo madara's durability far beyond sandaime raikages.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

im guessing you will find someway to twist this as well. you arent forcing me to assert anything. madaras body not being destroyed is outright stated.

and has again forced you to assert that a PS powered by rikudou's chakra and the sharinnegan = an EMS PS, an assertion that you've provided literally zero evidence for, and an assertion that's destroyed by an overwhelming amount of evidence against.

there is no such thing as the sharinnegan. sasukes eye is just a rinnegan as the manga stated. rikudos chakra is produced by the rinnegan so there is no need to separate them. there is no need for an unnecessarily long list of nonsense just to make your argument look like it has more substance than it really does.

the rikudo chakra empowered sasukes eyes to a state where he could advance susano to a complete body form. that was the only thing that was shown. susanos slash getting more powerful was never shown or implied.

I'm not mad because naruto isn't as strong as X, because the arguments for him being where I place him are overwhelmingly more supported than the arguments you've been forced to bring up in order to push your personal agenda. If I had to give a reason for why I get emotional, it's because I'm literally baffled by the amount of dishonesty that you've stooped to in order to push your own argument. There's no reason for it, it doesn't matter how dishonest of an argument you make, at the end of the day, reality is still reality, and you know that. That leads me to believe that your only goal is to influence others with your lies in hopes that if enough people believe the lie, then you've accomplished something. And that is one of the most disgusting things a human could possibly decide to do.

you are the only one talking about which persons argument has more support. i dont care, neither do i care about the general consensus.

you are correct. reality is reality. the manga stating that chou odama rasenshuriken didnt destroy madara is reality. you simply dont want to accept it because you already have a preconceived notion that naruto in his weakest forms can easily evaporate any susano. you have a warped view on how strong he really is.

 

[lanakui8]

V2 merely increases Eis speed, not his strength and he stopped right before he hit sasuke, so he was not moving at full speed.
the fact that the ribcage from an ems susano took an actual technique from Ei with absolutely no damage shows that ems susano>ms susano on equal levels.

Bolded is an assertion with no argument. Based on what does the cloak only increase his speed? Is it based on Ei's cloak giving him the physical strength to do his liger bomb? Is it based on Ei powering up to V2 when he had his lariat clash with Bee? Obviously not.
The rest of your post is a flat out concession on this point as you've been forced to completely ignore my argument which shows Sasuke's ribcage was incomparably smaller than Madara's.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

this is ridiculous. its outright stated that rasenshuriken didnt destroy madara. you can say "concession accepted" all you want but you are still wrong.

Oh, does hashirama say that? I seem to remember him saying soemthing completely different both via the scan you provided:

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and via scans from a different translation (mangapanda):

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both explicitly prove that you've stooped to the level and straight up lieing about the statements that occur in the manga. Hashirama never says anything about madara's body, he says in both situations that naruto's rasenshuriken wasn't enough to defeat madara. Unless you want to argue that madara's durability is TIERS beyond sandaime raikage's durability, and that madara's edo regen is so slow that he still is recovering from senpou rasenshuriken's damage long after the technique hits him despite it not even destroying him despite

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then it logically and necessarily leads to Hashirama talking about naruto's attack not being able to defeat madara because he's an edo.

So which is it?

if narutos jutsu had destroyed madara, he wouldve been sealed on the spot.

Completely and utterly false as Hashirama makes the explicit claim that they had to wait till someone with a sealing jutsu could seal him. No one was around that had a sealing jutsu to seal madara, if hashirama could have done it, he wouldn't have had to wait for sai.

you are just arguing semantics. the result remains the same with rasenshuriken not being able to breach susano.

In no way shape or form is this semantics. I've explained countless times why the bolded is absolutely false if the goal is to defeat madara. You ignoring that and just reposting a defeated point is once again a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.

exactly, external attacks will not work while susano is up, which is why gaara had to pull madara out of his susano, since rasenshuriken would have just been tanked.

YEah, I've literally addressed and destroyed this assertion many times in our argument. Gaara is refering to attacks damaging the susanoo user, external attacks work on susanoo, not the user, the goal is to defeat madara obviously external attacks won't work on madara as long as susanoo is there thus external attacks won't work. Concession accepted as you've ignored this explanation again and again.

do you realize how little sense this makes? narutos jutsu didnt put him down to the point where he could be sealed. he was not destroyed. thats the only possible interpretation.

What in the hell? There were no people who could have sealed Madara which is why Hashi had to wait till Sai was there. And that was against a madara who wasn't even damage, he just couldn't move. So nope, hashirama didn't have a jutsu that could seal madara, and when a sealing jutsu was used on madara, madara wasn't even damaged, therefore the notion that naruto's jutsu didn't do enough damage for madara to be sealed is literally impossible.

you are assuming that everytime an edo tensei is not shown directly after taking an attack, they were obviously destroyed. even if hashiramas statement did not exist, you would be unable to prove that madara was destroyed. thats how bad you argument is. madara not being destroyed is outright stated, and you dont even want to believe that.

In no way shape or form am I assuming the bolded. I'm arguing that madara's durability feats, rasenshuriken's destructive power, and the fact that we don't have a panel of madara's body being destroyed, only a panel of madara pinned long after he would have had time to regenerate shows that he was destroyed offpanel and hashirama pinned him while he was reforming.

I don't have to PROVE madara's body was destroyed since you can't either due to a lack of a panel literally showing madara's body being destroyed. However the argument that madara's body was destroyed is incomparably more plausible than the one for his body not being destroyed.

The bolded proves how bad YOUR argument is, since it's never stated anywhere that madara was not destroyed you literally made that statement up.

Not only that but your argument is so laughably unsupported that you'd have to believe that madara would have taken zero damage from attacks that

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and attacks that have

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You'd have to assert that edo madara's durability is incomparably greater than sandaime raikage's durability. So do you believe that? Because that's what you have to believe in order for your argument to even be possible. Anyways, that's why your argument is just laughably improbable. We don't have a statement from hashirama about how the rasenshuriken didn't destroy madara's body, and madara's durability + the rasenshuriken's power provide an overwhelming amount of evidence against the notion of madara surviving it.

this is your argument now? dust? there is dust floating around multiple pages after madara is shown to be immobilized, so not only is your point reaching, its invalid.

This is you once again conceding the arugment. I looked at the chapter, and there's literally no dust in any of he pages following madara getting pinned other than the dust from when hashi's tori gates made contact with the ground. Absolutely nothing, which means you've once again stooped to straight up lieing about the manga. The next time we see any dust, it's from the tori gates that madara destroyed once he got his real body back. The rasenshuriken's explosion always

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, yet by the time hashirama drops his gates on madara all of that's gone despite the rasenshuriken used being hundreds of times larger than a normal one. That's irrefutable proof that Madara was obliterated by the attack, else he would have been able to move and fight long before hashirama could pin him with the gates.

how about, madara tanked it because the manga said so?

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.


i dont have to assert anything. all i have to do is bring up hashirama statement.

Yep, so once again you've conceded the argument since you've been forced to literally lie about statements the characters have made in the manga.

madaras susano is flat on the ground and the avatar is upright. there is no size comparison to be made. the tails are much bigger than the body but you keep ignoring this and screaming "concession accepted".

This is once again a flat out concession on your part. Your argument is so dishonest and unsupported that you've stooped to claiming that when comparing two humanoid objects, both objects have to be standing upright or in the same position to make any kind of comparison.

I want you to make a thread, and in it argue that the susanoo underneath naruto's tail is just as big as the avatar.

being taken down in a sneak attack=/=showing equal feats while fighting alongside someone.
sasukes V3 susano is no different with or without the kyuubis chakra. the chakra merely empowered him to the point where he could use it.

What are these equal feats? Has sasuke's susanoo shown firepower equal to a TBB? has it shown the equivalent of a super TBB? Has he shown the equivalent of using clones while using his avatar and having said clones use attacks? Was sasuke simultaneously spreading his power across the entire shinobi alliance while using his susanoo?

And the bolded is an assertion, backed up by no argument and therefore it's completely and utterly worthless.

my argument does not necessitate that. there are a bunch of arbitrary assumptions on your part about rasenshuriken obliterating susano which necessitates that you outright ignore the manga.

Another concession on your part. I explain why your argument necessitates that, you're response: "no it doesn't" which is just an assertion without any reasoning behind it and thus it would be the equivalent of you ignoring my arguments and thus conceding them.

I've already shown how my argument in no way shape or form ignores the manga.

his susano was only enhanced in the sense that the chakra allowed it to evolve, thus becoming stronger. nothing implies thats susanos sword slashes became stronger. absolutely nothing.
sasukes perfect susano doesnt completely dump on madaras by feats.

Everythig implied that the susanoo's sword slashes became stronger. A single slash from sasuke's PS could slice a chibaku tensei in half, chibaku tenseis that rivaled the size of

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That completely trumps Madara's EMS PS slashes which at best are only on par with a normal bijuudama, and can't even take out a mere mokujin despite slashing multiple times, and can only cut the tops of a bunch of mountains. Chibaku tenseis are far more durable than raw earth, proven by KN6's bijuudama doing almost nothing to it despite causing a mountain-sized crater in konoha. If EMS Madara's PS had that kind of power, it would have one-shotted hashirama's buddah.

So nope, sasuke's sharinnegan PS oneshots EMS Madara's PS, they are worlds apart in offensive power which can only be attributed to it being powered by the sharinnegan.

Oh and btw it's utterly attrocious of you to claim that susanoo doesn't get powered up by stronger chakra, yet also claim that naruto's avatar got powered up by stronger chakra. Utterly attrocious.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

im guessing you will find someway to twist this as well. you arent forcing me to assert anything. madaras body not being destroyed is outright stated.

Yep so once again, shamelessly lieing about what the manga actually says in order to push your own personal agenda. That pretty much sums up your argument.

there is no such thing as the sharinnegan. sasukes eye is just a rinnegan as the manga stated. rikudos chakra is produced by the rinnegan so there is no need to separate them. there is no need for an unnecessarily long list of nonsense just to make your argument look like it has more substance than it really does.

The manga calls the EMS a "sharingan" does that mean there's no such thing as an eternal mangekyou sharingan? IF rikudou's chakra was produced just by the rinnegan, why did hagoromo give sasuke his yin chakra? Wouldn't sasuke already have that yin chakra?

the rikudo chakra empowered sasukes eyes to a state where he could advance susano to a complete body form. that was the only thing that was shown. susanos slash getting more powerful was never shown or implied.

Yep, utterly destroyed this argument of yours, moving on.

you are the only one talking about which persons argument has more support. i dont care, neither do i care about the general consensus.

you are correct. reality is reality. the manga stating that chou odama rasenshuriken didnt destroy madara is reality. you simply dont want to accept it because you already have a preconceived notion that naruto in his weakest forms can easily evaporate any susano. you have a warped view on how strong he really is.

This is just great. You claim that you literally don't care about what's right or wrong, who's argument is more supported or not, and you once again explicilty lie about what hashirama said in the manga. The manga says that naruto's chou oodama rasenshuriken wasn't enough to defeat madara. That has nothing to do with whether or not it completely destroyed his body. If Madara's body wasn't destroyed by the tech, he would be far more durable than sandaime raikage something that all of his durability feats completely refute. We've seen madara forced into susanoo by attacks that are incomparably weaker than a normal rasenshuriken, we've seen him forced into bringing out the rinnegan when he was about to get hit by the rasenshuriken. While he was alive, he gets stabbed by a sword just as easily as any human. Then there's the fact that by the time hashi got the gates on madara, all the dust from the rasenshuriken's explosion is gone indicating a lot of time has passed which makes it impossible for madara to have not been obliterated since he'd have healed long before then and never been pinned. So literally all the evidence says Madara got obliterated, which is why you're scared to admit the necessary things that you have to believe in order for your stance to be true and why you're forced to lie about what is actually said in the manga.

Then you go on to attack a strawman by claiming that I have a preconceived notion that naruto in his weakest forms can easily evaporate any susanoo, something my arguments absolutely never state or imply. I made the assertion that KCM Naruto's clones could destroy madara's V3 legged susanoos. KCM isn't naruto in his weakest forms, V3 legged susanoos from madara's clones are definitely not 'any' susanoo.

Yes, reality is reality, and from the amount of times you've had to flip reality off with your lies and deceit, it's blatantly clear that you don't care about what's actually true. You just want to push your own agenda, no matter the cost, no matter how much you have to lie. And that's why you've been forced to make so much ridiculous assertions as well as blatantly ignore many of my arguments: because your lies just don't hold up to the truth.

 

[TheSages456]

Bolded is an assertion with no argument. Based on what does the cloak only increase his speed? Is it based on Ei's cloak giving him the physical strength to do his liger bomb? Is it based on Ei powering up to V2 when he had his lariat clash with Bee? Obviously not.
The rest of your post is a flat out concession on this point as you've been forced to completely ignore my argument which shows Sasuke's ribcage was incomparably smaller than Madara's.

you clearly dont know what you are talking about. Eis speed affects his power. his cloak was never stated to make him stronger. it makes him faster.
a car hitting you at 100mph hurts more than a car hitting you at 20mph.

nobody ignored anything. if an ems ribcage is naturally larger than an ms ribcage, so what?

Oh, does hashirama say that? I seem to remember him saying soemthing completely different both via the scan you provided:

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and via scans from a different translation (mangapanda):

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both explicitly prove that you've stooped to the level and straight up lieing about the statements that occur in the manga. Hashirama never says anything about madara's body, he says in both situations that naruto's rasenshuriken wasn't enough to defeat madara. Unless you want to argue that madara's durability is TIERS beyond sandaime raikage's durability, and that madara's edo regen is so slow that he still is recovering from senpou rasenshuriken's damage long after the technique hits him despite it not even destroying him despite

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then it logically and necessarily leads to Hashirama talking about naruto's attack not being able to defeat madara because he's an edo.

So which is it?

that was the original japanese translation, so its accuracy is greater than the viz and any scanlation. the above scans do indeed agree with my point regardless. the problem is you completely warping the statement to fit your argument.
i didnt use it earlier because i didnt think it was necessary. i thought anybody with half a brain would be able to properly interpret hashiramas statement.

that has nothing to do with the manga not supporting my argument, but it has a lot to do with your dishonesty.

the original japanese text is rather blunt.

Completely and utterly false as Hashirama makes the explicit claim that they had to wait till someone with a sealing jutsu could seal him. No one was around that had a sealing jutsu to seal madara, if hashirama could have done it, he wouldn't have had to wait for sai.

Hashi : Good timing, son of the fourth.
Let's use this opportunity to seal him !

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

hashirama said that narutos jutsu would be the opportunity needed to seal madara. he then says that it didnt destroy madara, but he at the very least restrained his movements, then he says that they only need to wait for a sealing ninja.

rasenshuriken did not give the opportunity to seal madara since it did not destroy him. hashirama had to use gates to hold him down which forced him to wait for a sealing ninja instead of sealing him right away.

In no way shape or form is this semantics. I've explained countless times why the bolded is absolutely false if the goal is to defeat madara. You ignoring that and just reposting a defeated point is once again a concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.

this is fantastic. you are really pretending that you have given an actual credible argument then jabber on about how i have conceded.
you couldnt prove that rasenshuriken destroys susano with statements and you couldnt do it with feats either. concession accepted for restating a defeated point.

YEah, I've literally addressed and destroyed this assertion many times in our argument. Gaara is refering to attacks damaging the susanoo user, external attacks work on susanoo, not the user, the goal is to defeat madara obviously external attacks won't work on madara as long as susanoo is there thus external attacks won't work. Concession accepted as you've ignored this explanation again and again.

pretending to gain momentum in a debate by saying you destroyed an argument isnt going to help you.

What in the hell? There were no people who could have sealed Madara which is why Hashi had to wait till Sai was there. And that was against a madara who wasn't even damage, he just couldn't move. So nope, hashirama didn't have a jutsu that could seal madara, and when a sealing jutsu was used on madara, madara wasn't even damaged, therefore the notion that naruto's jutsu didn't do enough damage for madara to be sealed is literally impossible.

hashirama could have sealed him, but narutos rasenshuriken didnt do the job, which in turn forced hashirama to use gates in order to keep him down since an opportunity was not created for madara to be sealed. after all of those events, a sealing ninja is needed.

In no way shape or form am I assuming the bolded. I'm arguing that madara's durability feats, rasenshuriken's destructive power, and the fact that we don't have a panel of madara's body being destroyed, only a panel of madara pinned long after he would have had time to regenerate shows that he was destroyed offpanel and hashirama pinned him while he was reforming.

I don't have to PROVE madara's body was destroyed since you can't either due to a lack of a panel literally showing madara's body being destroyed. However the argument that madara's body was destroyed is incomparably more plausible than the one for his body not being destroyed.

The bolded proves how bad YOUR argument is, since it's never stated anywhere that madara was not destroyed you literally made that statement up.

hashirama stated that madaras body was not destroyed. thats rather blunt, but you are allowed to pretend that you countered my point which comes directly from the manga.

Not only that but your argument is so laughably unsupported that you'd have to believe that madara would have taken zero damage from attacks that

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and attacks that have

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why would madara willingly get hit? i never said that madara took zero damage. i merely stated that his body was not destroyed, which is stated in the manga.

You'd have to assert that edo madara's durability is incomparably greater than sandaime raikage's durability. So do you believe that? Because that's what you have to believe in order for your argument to even be possible. Anyways, that's why your argument is just laughably improbable. We don't have a statement from hashirama about how the rasenshuriken didn't destroy madara's body, and madara's durability + the rasenshuriken's power provide an overwhelming amount of evidence against the notion of madara surviving it.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

This is you once again conceding the arugment. I looked at the chapter, and there's literally no dust in any of he pages following madara getting pinned other than the dust from when hashi's tori gates made contact with the ground. Absolutely nothing, which means you've once again stooped to straight up lieing about the manga. The next time we see any dust, it's from the tori gates that madara destroyed once he got his real body back. The rasenshuriken's explosion always

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, yet by the time hashirama drops his gates on madara all of that's gone despite the rasenshuriken used being hundreds of times larger than a normal one. That's irrefutable proof that Madara was obliterated by the attack, else he would have been able to move and fight long before hashirama could pin him with the gates.


Yep, so once again you've conceded the argument since you've been forced to literally lie about statements the characters have made in the manga.


This is once again a flat out concession on your part. Your argument is so dishonest and unsupported that you've stooped to claiming that when comparing two humanoid objects, both objects have to be standing upright or in the same position to make any kind of comparison.

as usual, you couldnt properly comprehend my argument. the fact that there was dust around the gates even pages after the gates were initially shown to be on madara means that the manga doesnt support your notion that hashirama only put the gates on madara the page that he was just shown restrained.
the time that hashirama cast the jutsu is not shown.


Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

but you are so dishonest that you claim the bold is not saying that madaras body was not destroyed.

I want you to make a thread, and in it argue that the susanoo underneath naruto's tail is just as big as the avatar.



What are these equal feats? Has sasuke's susanoo shown firepower equal to a TBB? has it shown the equivalent of a super TBB? Has he shown the equivalent of using clones while using his avatar and having said clones use attacks? Was sasuke simultaneously spreading his power across the entire shinobi alliance while using his susanoo?

why would i make a thread? you want to see people agree with you?

both naruto and sasuke had equal performances against obito.

naruto spreading chakra doesnt help him in a 1v1, so thats irrelevant. clones are irrelevant on since they cant do anything to susano.

Another concession on your part. I explain why your argument necessitates that, you're response: "no it doesn't" which is just an assertion without any reasoning behind it and thus it would be the equivalent of you ignoring my arguments and thus conceding them.

I've already shown how my argument in no way shape or form ignores the manga.


Everythig implied that the susanoo's sword slashes became stronger. A single slash from sasuke's PS could slice a chibaku tensei in half, chibaku tenseis that rivaled the size of

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That completely trumps Madara's EMS PS slashes which at best are only on par with a normal bijuudama, and can't even take out a mere mokujin despite slashing multiple times, and can only cut the tops of a bunch of mountains. Chibaku tenseis are far more durable than raw earth, proven by KN6's bijuudama doing almost nothing to it despite causing a mountain-sized crater in konoha. If EMS Madara's PS had that kind of power, it would have one-shotted hashirama's buddah.

complete and utter nonsense.

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PS never hit the mokujin with its sword. madaras PS has shown the same power as sasukes and it didnt one-shot the buddha even with kuramas help, so your point is null and void.

So nope, sasuke's sharinnegan PS oneshots EMS Madara's PS, they are worlds apart in offensive power which can only be attributed to it being powered by the sharinnegan.

Oh and btw it's utterly attrocious of you to claim that susanoo doesn't get powered up by stronger chakra, yet also claim that naruto's avatar got powered up by stronger chakra. Utterly attrocious.

susano did get powered up by stronger chakra. it evolved to its next form.

Yep so once again, shamelessly lieing about what the manga actually says in order to push your own personal agenda. That pretty much sums up your argument.


The manga calls the EMS a "sharingan" does that mean there's no such thing as an eternal mangekyou sharingan? IF rikudou's chakra was produced just by the rinnegan, why did hagoromo give sasuke his yin chakra? Wouldn't sasuke already have that yin chakra?

the manga not once used the term "sharinnegan". it does not exist. the only thing above the rinnegan is the rinnesharingan which sasuke does not have. sasukes eye is simply a rinnegan.

hagoromo gave sasuke his chakra which evolved his sharingan into the rinnegan. hagoromos chakra contains yin-yang.
the rinnegan still produces six paths chakra after the fact since it is hagoromos eye.
hagoromo then gave sasuke the yin seal for six paths CT. the yin seal has nothing to do with the rinnegan.

of course i would have to explain the manga to you since you dont even know what you are reading.

This is just great. You claim that you literally don't care about what's right or wrong, who's argument is more supported or not, and you once again explicilty lie about what hashirama said in the manga. The manga says that naruto's chou oodama rasenshuriken wasn't enough to defeat madara. That has nothing to do with whether or not it completely destroyed his body. If Madara's body wasn't destroyed by the tech, he would be far more durable than sandaime raikage something that all of his durability feats completely refute. We've seen madara forced into susanoo by attacks that are incomparably weaker than a normal rasenshuriken, we've seen him forced into bringing out the rinnegan when he was about to get hit by the rasenshuriken. While he was alive, he gets stabbed by a sword just as easily as any human. Then there's the fact that by the time hashi got the gates on madara, all the dust from the rasenshuriken's explosion is gone indicating a lot of time has passed which makes it impossible for madara to have not been obliterated since he'd have healed long before then and never been pinned. So literally all the evidence says Madara got obliterated, which is why you're scared to admit the necessary things that you have to believe in order for your stance to be true and why you're forced to lie about what is actually said in the manga.

Then you go on to attack a strawman by claiming that I have a preconceived notion that naruto in his weakest forms can easily evaporate any susanoo, something my arguments absolutely never state or imply. I made the assertion that KCM Naruto's clones could destroy madara's V3 legged susanoos. KCM isn't naruto in his weakest forms, V3 legged susanoos from madara's clones are definitely not 'any' susanoo.

Yes, reality is reality, and from the amount of times you've had to flip reality off with your lies and deceit, it's blatantly clear that you don't care about what's actually true. You just want to push your own agenda, no matter the cost, no matter how much you have to lie. And that's why you've been forced to make so much ridiculous assertions as well as blatantly ignore many of my arguments: because your lies just don't hold up to the truth.

the manga supports my argument overwhelmingly. thats all that matters. scream concession accepted as much as you want. if madaras body was not destroyed, that only proves that he is strong enough to live rasenshuriken. the 3rd raikage has nothing to do with anything.

 

[lanakui8]

you clearly dont know what you are talking about. Eis speed affects his power. his cloak was never stated to make him stronger. it makes him faster.
a car hitting you at 100mph hurts more than a car hitting you at 20mph.

nobody ignored anything. if an ems ribcage is naturally larger than an ms ribcage, so what?

The bolded is in no way shape or form a positive argument for the cloak not boosting his power. You've conceded this point due to being forced to ignore the two examples that I've given one of which ei was standing still, one of which Ei clashed with bee in a pure strength match.

The second part of your post is also a concession since if the EMS ribcage is naturally larger than the ms ribcage, you in no way shape or form can clai that an EMS susanoo of the same size as an MS susanoo is more durable since the EMS ribcage gets its durability from its size, therefore if size is equalized there's no argument for one being more durable than the other.

that was the original japanese translation, so its accuracy is greater than the viz and any scanlation. the above scans do indeed agree with my point regardless. the problem is you completely warping the statement to fit your argument.
i didnt use it earlier because i didnt think it was necessary. i thought anybody with half a brain would be able to properly interpret hashiramas statement.

If you want to claim that what you're saying is the original japanese translation, give me evidence for that. As of now, you're just saying it. I'm absolutely not warping the other statements, I've analyzed them as is and given a long and precise argument for what i'm asserting. You on the otherhand have given no arguments for your assertions, neither have you even tried to refute my own which immediately leads to you tacitly conceding this point as an ignored argument is once again a conceded one.

that has nothing to do with the manga not supporting my argument, but it has a lot to do with your dishonesty.

the original japanese text is rather blunt.


Hashi : Good timing, son of the fourth.
Let's use this opportunity to seal him !

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

hashirama said that narutos jutsu would be the opportunity needed to seal madara. he then says that it didnt destroy madara, but he at the very least restrained his movements, then he says that they only need to wait for a sealing ninja.

rasenshuriken did not give the opportunity to seal madara since it did not destroy him. hashirama had to use gates to hold him down which forced him to wait for a sealing ninja instead of sealing him right away.[/QUOTE]
First off, where are you getting that text from?

Secondly, your explanation makes absolutely no sense for the same reason I've explained before. Hashirama showed that all he needed to do was hold madara down with the gates, that put madara in a position to be sealed. If Hashirama was capable of sealing madara, then madara would have been sealed after being put in position. If Hashirama is talking about another person sealing him, then it's compelely irrelevant if the rasenshuriken destroyed madara's body or not since by the time another person who actually could seal madara came, madara would have already completely regenerated. So nope, it's impossible that hashirama could have been talking about the rasenshuriken not destroying madara's body enough to the point where he could have been sealed.

this is fantastic. you are really pretending that you have given an actual credible argument then jabber on about how i have conceded.
you couldnt prove that rasenshuriken destroys susano with statements and you couldnt do it with feats either. concession accepted for restating a defeated point.

This would be you conceding this and multiple other points since I've stated multiple times that neither of us can fulfill a burden of proof of PROVING our assertions true. Can you PROVE that madara wasn't destroyed by the rasenshuriken? Obviously not since we don't see madara's body until long after the attack is over.

So for, IDK, the millionth time, i don't have a buden of proof to PROVE my stance 100% true since neither of us can fulfill that burden of proof. However, in no way shape or form does it logically follow that me being unable to prove my stance true = my stance is false.

pretending to gain momentum in a debate by saying you destroyed an argument isnt going to help you.

I'm only stating the truth. I presented an argument, you were forced to ignore it which means you have no logical answer for my argument thus a concession on your part.

hashirama could have sealed him, but narutos rasenshuriken didnt do the job, which in turn forced hashirama to use gates in order to keep him down since an opportunity was not created for madara to be sealed. after all of those events, a sealing ninja is needed.

That makes absolutely no sense. If madara could have been sealed by any shinobi with a sealing jutsu, then hashirama would have just done it himself after putting madara in that situation. Hashirama didn't have a jutsu for sealing edo tenseis, that's why he claimed naruto's attack alone wasn't able to beat madara, that's why he said that they needed someone who could seal madara.

hashirama stated that madaras body was not destroyed. thats rather blunt, but you are allowed to pretend that you countered my point which comes directly from the manga.

Once again, i would love to see the source for this japanese translation.

why would madara willingly get hit? i never said that madara took zero damage. i merely stated that his body was not destroyed, which is stated in the manga.

If Madara's body wasn't destroyed by SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken, then a base chou oodama rasengan would do literally zero damage to him. Madara only ups his power when his opponents push him to it, that's why he starts off in base against the shinobi alliance and then reveals the ems when forced to guard with susanoo and then uses the rinnegan when forced to use preta path. If his body wasn't even destroyed by SM chou oodama raseshuriken, then he absolutely wouldn't be pushed to the rinnegan when up against a rasenshuriken, he'd just block it with an arm.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

Scan? Source?

as usual, you couldnt properly comprehend my argument. the fact that there was dust around the gates even pages after the gates were initially shown to be on madara means that the manga doesnt support your notion that hashirama only put the gates on madara the page that he was just shown restrained.
the time that hashirama cast the jutsu is not shown.

That in no way shape or form was your argument. Your argument was purely that 'there was dust' in order to try to disprove the notion that the dust had cleared from the rasenshuriken. Now that you've been called out on your lie, you're stepping back into this lesser stance, a stance by the way that only enhances my own argument. If the dust kicked up by hashirama's gates takes pages to settle, then that means the time between the rasenshuriken blowing up and when hashirama plants those gates is even longer. So it's completely irrelevant, if the dust takes long to settle for hashirama's gates, then the dust from the rasenshuriken would have taken longer in proportion.

So nope, madara had to have been destroyed by the rasenshuriken, if he hadn't he would have regenerated long before the dust from the attack settled and hashirama would have never put the gates on him.

Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.

but you are so dishonest that you claim the bold is not saying that madaras body was not destroyed.

Yep, im really anxtious to see your source.

why would i make a thread? you want to see people agree with you?

No, to get a third party's perspective. It's called checks and balances, it keeps the discussion honest, something that you relentlessly try to avoid.

both naruto and sasuke had equal performances against obito.

Completely and utterly irrelevant if one of them is massively restricted both in arsenal, and in chakra, when Sasuke has to be massively boosted by naruto's chakra, and if Sasuke's strongest attacks only match naruto's absolute weakest. So nope.

naruto spreading chakra doesnt help him in a 1v1, so thats irrelevant. clones are irrelevant on since they cant do anything to susano.

Based on what does naruto spreading his chakra not help him in a 1 vs 1 situation? More chakra = more power, and naruto lacking a ton of chakra obviously would factor into author portrayal. Saying it doesn't help him in a 1 vs 1 situation is a pure featbased discussion, if you want to do a 1 vs 1 feats discussion V3 susanoo gets fodderstomped. Based on what are clones irrelevant and based on what can they not do anything to susanoo?

complete and utter nonsense.

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Wow, just wow. You literally just proved my point better. The scan you've provided shows the meteors circled in red, and it shows how they compare to the crater underneath the shinjuu which is the one that I showed in the post you've quoted. Madara's PS slashed multiple times while inside of that crater, yet its slashes left no noticeable mark on said crater.

I have absolutely no idea why you circled that mountain on the bottom left. Mountains massively vary in size in the NV, if you want to use that mountain as some kind of evidence you're going to have to show how big it is compared to mountains that madara's PS has gone up against. IF not, then it's completely irrelevant.

PS never hit the mokujin with its sword. madaras PS has shown the same power as sasukes and it didnt one-shot the buddha even with kuramas help, so your point is null and void.

Where's your evidence for the bolded? Where's your evidence that madara's PS has shown the same power as sasuke's?

Madara's PS not oneshotting the buddah is conclusive proof that it's nothing compared to sasuke's, as I've literally explained via the chibaku tensei example, an explanation that once again you've been forced to completely ignore due to your dishonesty.

susano did get powered up by stronger chakra. it evolved to its next form.

Based on what did the chakra not power up the construct itself as well?

the manga not once used the term "sharinnegan". it does not exist. the only thing above the rinnegan is the rinnesharingan which sasuke does not have. sasukes eye is simply a rinnegan.

If you agree that the rinnesharingan exists, then why in the world do you assert that sasuke doesn't have it?

hagoromo gave sasuke his chakra which evolved his sharingan into the rinnegan. hagoromos chakra contains yin-yang.
the rinnegan still produces six paths chakra after the fact since it is hagoromos eye.
hagoromo then gave sasuke the yin seal for six paths CT. the yin seal has nothing to do with the rinnegan.

Based on what did hagoromo's chakra give sasuke the sharingan? Sasuke had both hashirama's cells and chakra, that's asura chakra and he has indras which are the requirements for the rinnegan. Hagoromo just gave sasuke his yin seal and chakra just like he gave naruto his yang seal and chakra.

of course i would have to explain the manga to you since you dont even know what you are reading.

Says the guy who's stance is so utterly terrible and unsupported that he has to say edo madara >>>>>> sandaime raikage's durability.

the manga supports my argument overwhelmingly. thats all that matters. scream concession accepted as much as you want. if madaras body was not destroyed, that only proves that he is strong enough to live rasenshuriken. the 3rd raikage has nothing to do with anything.

The manga absolutely does not support your argument. Your entire argument revolves around one interpretation of a single phrase that's completely and utterly unsupported by literally everything else that pertains to it. Therefore you abuse that interpretation and ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence against it in order to push your unwavering bias stance.

I've explained COUNTLESS times how your stance on madara necessitates his durability vs the third raikages, to which you've tacitly conceded that you have no logical explanation for that in the form of you simply ignoring that argument or claiming without reason that it has nothing to do with anything.

 

[TheSages456]

The bolded is in no way shape or form a positive argument for the cloak not boosting his power. You've conceded this point due to being forced to ignore the two examples that I've given one of which ei was standing still, one of which Ei clashed with bee in a pure strength match.

stop saying that i ignored your examples when i havent. your arguments in reality have very little substance and you show a ridiculous amount of ignorance on what you are discussing.

ive already told you how the cloak works. Ei increasing his speed is the same as him increasing his strength since charging at the person faster allows him to hit them harder. thats exactly what he did against bee and anyone he uses the cloak against. he increases his speed in order to increase his power.

it was never stated that Eis cloak allowed him to do the liger bomb. im not sure where you are getting this nonsense from.

The second part of your post is also a concession since if the EMS ribcage is naturally larger than the ms ribcage, you in no way shape or form can clai that an EMS susanoo of the same size as an MS susanoo is more durable since the EMS ribcage gets its durability from its size, therefore if size is equalized there's no argument for one being more durable than the other.

my argument was that ems susano was stronger than ms susano on equal levels, not of the same size. if an ems ribcage happens to be larger than an ms ribcage, so what?
that doesnt disprove an ems susano being more durable than an ms susano on equal levels.

If you want to claim that what you're saying is the original japanese translation, give me evidence for that. As of now, you're just saying it. I'm absolutely not warping the other statements, I've analyzed them as is and given a long and precise argument for what i'm asserting. You on the otherhand have given no arguments for your assertions, neither have you even tried to refute my own which immediately leads to you tacitly conceding this point as an ignored argument is once again a conceded one.

First off, where are you getting that text from?

Secondly, your explanation makes absolutely no sense for the same reason I've explained before. Hashirama showed that all he needed to do was hold madara down with the gates, that put madara in a position to be sealed. If Hashirama was capable of sealing madara, then madara would have been sealed after being put in position. If Hashirama is talking about another person sealing him, then it's compelely irrelevant if the rasenshuriken destroyed madara's body or not since by the time another person who actually could seal madara came, madara would have already completely regenerated. So nope, it's impossible that hashirama could have been talking about the rasenshuriken not destroying madara's body enough to the point where he could have been sealed.


This would be you conceding this and multiple other points since I've stated multiple times that neither of us can fulfill a burden of proof of PROVING our assertions true. Can you PROVE that madara wasn't destroyed by the rasenshuriken? Obviously not since we don't see madara's body until long after the attack is over.

So for, IDK, the millionth time, i don't have a buden of proof to PROVE my stance 100% true since neither of us can fulfill that burden of proof. However, in no way shape or form does it logically follow that me being unable to prove my stance true = my stance is false.


I'm only stating the truth. I presented an argument, you were forced to ignore it which means you have no logical answer for my argument thus a concession on your part.



That makes absolutely no sense. If madara could have been sealed by any shinobi with a sealing jutsu, then hashirama would have just done it himself after putting madara in that situation. Hashirama didn't have a jutsu for sealing edo tenseis, that's why he claimed naruto's attack alone wasn't able to beat madara, that's why he said that they needed someone who could seal madara.


Once again, i would love to see the source for this japanese translation.

ht tp://ww w.naruto forums .com/ showthread.php?t=955668

If Madara's body wasn't destroyed by SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken, then a base chou oodama rasengan would do literally zero damage to him. Madara only ups his power when his opponents push him to it, that's why he starts off in base against the shinobi alliance and then reveals the ems when forced to guard with susanoo and then uses the rinnegan when forced to use preta path. If his body wasn't even destroyed by SM chou oodama raseshuriken, then he absolutely wouldn't be pushed to the rinnegan when up against a rasenshuriken, he'd just block it with an arm.

@bold-obviously not since he guarded against it. it wouldnt have came close to killing him so that just another irrelevant point on your end.

2nd bold- madaras body not being destroyed by chou odama rasenshuriken does not mean that he can block regular rasenshuriken with his arm without injury. it simply means that a regular rasenshuriken would do less damage to him than chou odama rasenshuriken.

That in no way shape or form was your argument. Your argument was purely that 'there was dust' in order to try to disprove the notion that the dust had cleared from the rasenshuriken. Now that you've been called out on your lie, you're stepping back into this lesser stance, a stance by the way that only enhances my own argument. If the dust kicked up by hashirama's gates takes pages to settle, then that means the time between the rasenshuriken blowing up and when hashirama plants those gates is even longer. So it's completely irrelevant, if the dust takes long to settle for hashirama's gates, then the dust from the rasenshuriken would have taken longer in proportion.

you need to reread the previous posts. my previous posts never mentioned dust to begin with. you were the one that started grasping at straws.
you however, cannot prove when hashirama cast his jutsu, so your argument holds absolutely no water.

you are so delusional that you cant even keep track of the discussion.

So nope, madara had to have been destroyed by the rasenshuriken, if he hadn't he would have regenerated long before the dust from the attack settled and hashirama would have never put the gates on him.

this is how bad your reaching is. not only did the manga state that madara was not destroyed, you cant verify when hashirama cast his jutsu. you keep making all these nonsensical claims that you cant back up.

No, to get a third party's perspective. It's called checks and balances, it keeps the discussion honest, something that you relentlessly try to avoid.

the only dishonest part of this discussion is on your end. a lot of people like to think that rasenshuriken can destroy susano. it doesnt mean that such a notion is correct.

Completely and utterly irrelevant if one of them is massively restricted both in arsenal, and in chakra, when Sasuke has to be massively boosted by naruto's chakra, and if Sasuke's strongest attacks only match naruto's absolute weakest. So nope.

where is the proof that naruto was restricted?

sasuke only matched narutos weakest attack? since when is bijudama narutos weakest attack?

Based on what does naruto spreading his chakra not help him in a 1 vs 1 situation? More chakra = more power, and naruto lacking a ton of chakra obviously would factor into author portrayal. Saying it doesn't help him in a 1 vs 1 situation is a pure featbased discussion, if you want to do a 1 vs 1 feats discussion V3 susanoo gets fodderstomped.

how does naruto being able to share his chakra with others help him in a 1v1 battle?

naruto had enough chakra for biju mode and he had just taken chakra from yin kurama who was inside minato at the time.

Based on what are clones irrelevant and based on what can they not do anything to susanoo?

based on the fact that their strongest move is rasenshuriken.

Wow, just wow. You literally just proved my point better. The scan you've provided shows the meteors circled in red, and it shows how they compare to the crater underneath the shinjuu which is the one that I showed in the post you've quoted. Madara's PS slashed multiple times while inside of that crater, yet its slashes left no noticeable mark on said crater.

what are you talking about? the meteors are as big as the shinjus trunk. they arent as big as the entire crater.

I have absolutely no idea why you circled that mountain on the bottom left. Mountains massively vary in size in the NV, if you want to use that mountain as some kind of evidence you're going to have to show how big it is compared to mountains that madara's PS has gone up against. IF not, then it's completely irrelevant.

the mountains around the shinju are the same size as the mountains around VOTE. both these areas are relatively close to each other and share mountain ranges.

Where's your evidence for the bolded? Where's your evidence that madara's PS has shown the same power as sasuke's?

the fact that it doesnt have any feats that put it above madaras.

Madara's PS not oneshotting the buddah is conclusive proof that it's nothing compared to sasuke's, as I've literally explained via the chibaku tensei example, an explanation that once again you've been forced to completely ignore due to your dishonesty.

nonsense since you cant prove that sasukes PS can one-shot shinsuusenju.

Based on what did the chakra not power up the construct itself as well?

susano was powered up and this allowed it to evolve.

a slash from sasukes V3 susano with or without kuramas chakra are no different because there is never implied to be a difference. its that simple. V3 susano itself was the boost.

If you agree that the rinnesharingan exists, then why in the world do you assert that sasuke doesn't have it?

because sasuke does not have it. that is kaguyas eye. this is what happens when you cannot properly interpret the manga or the databook.

Based on what did hagoromo's chakra give sasuke the sharingan? Sasuke had both hashirama's cells and chakra, that's asura chakra and he has indras which are the requirements for the rinnegan. Hagoromo just gave sasuke his yin seal and chakra just like he gave naruto his yang seal and chakra.

the fact that he had awakened the rinnegan the moment after hagoromo gave him his chakra. there is also the fact that the databook says that sasuke received the rinnegan from hagoromo.

the biju chakra in naruto was dormant until hagoromo came along. he is the one that called the biju out. the six paths chakra that hagoromo gave naruto is why he could use six paths senjutsu.

Says the guy who's stance is so utterly terrible and unsupported that he has to say edo madara >>>>>> sandaime raikage's durability.

the 3rd raikage tanked rasenshuriken already so im not sure how my stance has to support what you are saying. can he also tank chou odama rasenshuriken? why not?

The manga absolutely does not support your argument. Your entire argument revolves around one interpretation of a single phrase that's completely and utterly unsupported by literally everything else that pertains to it. Therefore you abuse that interpretation and ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence against it in order to push your unwavering bias stance.

I've explained COUNTLESS times how your stance on madara necessitates his durability vs the third raikages, to which you've tacitly conceded that you have no logical explanation for that in the form of you simply ignoring that argument or claiming without reason that it has nothing to do with anything.

the 3rd raikage isnt even relevant. you keep bringing him up to try and divert attention from your lack of a proper argument.

 

[lanakui8]

stop saying that i ignored your examples when i havent. your arguments in reality have very little substance and you show a ridiculous amount of ignorance on what you are discussing.

ive already told you how the cloak works. Ei increasing his speed is the same as him increasing his strength since charging at the person faster allows him to hit them harder. thats exactly what he did against bee and anyone he uses the cloak against. he increases his speed in order to increase his power.

it was never stated that Eis cloak allowed him to do the liger bomb. im not sure where you are getting this nonsense from.

Ei's chakra levels increased in order for him to do liger bomb. The only known way he does that is amping his cloak up just like he did in order to evade sasuke's amaterasu. So nope, ei amped his cloak up giving him the power to do liger bomb. Not only that, but even if the cloak only increased his speed, that still makes Ei's chop against sasuke's susanoo much stronger than the same thing in V1 since both the shunshin he uses for his forward movement to hit sasuke's susanoo and the speed of his chop would increase proportionally. So nope, it's still a much stronger hit.

my argument was that ems susano was stronger than ms susano on equal levels, not of the same size. if an ems ribcage happens to be larger than an ms ribcage, so what?
that doesnt disprove an ems susano being more durable than an ms susano on equal levels.

That absolutely renders your argument void since you now have zero positive evidence that an EMS susanoo is actually more durable than an MS susanoo. MS ribcages can vary in size as well, just like EMS ribcages can. Therefore if your only evidence was an instance where an EMS user used a much bigger and more developed ribcage than an MS user, then you have no argument as it's most likely th case that the EMS user's construct is more durable due to the size. So nope.

ht tp://ww w.naruto forums .com/ showthread.php?t=955668

and why is this source any more credible than mangapanda or mangastreams translations? Not only that, but you've ignored and thus conceded all of the other arguments that you've quoted and have not addressed.

Plus, in the best case scenario and hashi's statement is literally true, then it's most likely that case that madara protected himself from the attack with his absorption abilities after being hit with it initially.

@bold-obviously not since he guarded against it. it wouldnt have came close to killing him so that just another irrelevant point on your end.

The bolded is logically incoherent with your stance. a normal rasenshuriken is far stronger than 25 sm chou oodama rasengans. An normall chou oodama rasengan is incomparably weaker than a senpou chou oodama rasengan, madara wouldn't have even been damaged by that attack if he could survive a senpou FRS, let alone a senpou FRS a hundred times bigger than normal.

2nd bold- madaras body not being destroyed by chou odama rasenshuriken does not mean that he can block regular rasenshuriken with his arm without injury. it simply means that a regular rasenshuriken would do less damage to him than chou odama rasenshuriken.

Um, yes it does. A senpou chou oodama rasenshuriken is at least a hundred times larger than a regular one, if that can't even destroy madara's body then a normal-sized one isn't going to do anything to him.

you need to reread the previous posts. my previous posts never mentioned dust to begin with. you were the one that started grasping at straws.
you however, cannot prove when hashirama cast his jutsu, so your argument holds absolutely no water.

you are so delusional that you cant even keep track of the discussion.

The bolded is you conceding this point as well since i literally went over the fact that I didn't need to prove when hashirama cast his jutsu since the dust settles slowly either way. So if hashirama cast his jutsu a long time ago and the dust was still there, the rasenshuriken dust had to have settled a much much longer time ago, therefore it makes zero difference.

this is how bad your reaching is. not only did the manga state that madara was not destroyed, you cant verify when hashirama cast his jutsu. you keep making all these nonsensical claims that you cant back up.

So this is once again a concession on your part as you're forced to literally ignore my argument which shows that when hashirama cast his jutsu is irrelevant since either way, it was long after the dust from SM chou oodama rasenshuriken settled, giving madara way more than enough time to regenerate if the attack didn't completely destroy him.

the only dishonest part of this discussion is on your end. a lot of people like to think that rasenshuriken can destroy susano. it doesnt mean that such a notion is correct.

Who said anything about rasenshuriken vs susanoo? I wanted to get peoples honest and objective opinions about the size of susanoo vs bm naruto's avatar. That's got nothing to do with preconceived notions, people who don't have a clue about what naruto is can come into the thread and just identifying if the two objects in question are the same size. It's absolutely disgusting that someone like you will claim that I'm being dishonest, yet will turn around and claim that both the susanoo under naruto's tail and the body of naruto's construct are the same size in this scan:

Spoiler

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Anyways, you claiming that pretty much shows that you have no desire at all to argue truth, you just don't care.

where is the proof that naruto was restricted?

....the fact that he has his chakra and attention spread across thousands of individuals, the fact that he uses nothing that he was shown capable of almost a hundred chapters back. Now where's your proof that naruto WASN'T restricted?

sasuke only matched narutos weakest attack? since when is bijudama narutos weakest attack?

Since when did sasuke match bijuudama? Firing attacks at the same time in no way shape or form mean equality. Sasuke's strongest susanoo attacks: sword slashes, were only doing as much damage as mere tail and claw swipes from naruto.

how does naruto being able to share his chakra with others help him in a 1v1 battle?

naruto had enough chakra for biju mode and he had just taken chakra from yin kurama who was inside minato at the time.

Naruto NOT sharing his chakra with others means he gets all that chakra for himself. So what if naruto had enough chakra for bijuu mode and had taken chakra from yin kurama? If he's fighting 1 vs 1, all that chakra is for himself, and it's no where near naruto's actual reserves since all of his chakra got drained by the shinjuu prior, and minato was no where near his maximum when he gave naruto his chakra for BM.

based on the fact that their strongest move is rasenshuriken.

It's actually not, their strongest move is bijuu rasengan. Plus, since this is BM Naruto we're talking about, his rasenshurikens are so powerful that they can

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The same tails that can withstand bijuudama and fuutons incomparably more powerful than the ones danzou used to blow open sasuke's V3.

what are you talking about? the meteors are as big as the shinjus trunk. they arent as big as the entire crater.

the mountains around the shinju are the same size as the mountains around VOTE. both these areas are relatively close to each other and share mountain ranges.

the fact that it doesnt have any feats that put it above madaras.

yellow is the outline of the crater, the red is the outline of the meteor:

Spoiler

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The meteors are just as tall as the crater is long, and

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The bolded is in no way shape or form a positive argument, in this very area there are mountains that are incomparably smaller than the one you've circled.

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there are mountain ranges beind completely dwared by just a portion of debris produced by one of the meteors. So nope, you have zero evidence that the mountains are anywhere near the same size.

nonsense since you cant prove that sasukes PS can one-shot shinsuusenju.

I did as i've shown you that it can oneshot superdurable meteors that are

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which gives Sasuke's PS the feats to easily fodderize something much smaller and less durable.

susano was powered up and this allowed it to evolve.

a slash from sasukes V3 susano with or without kuramas chakra are no different because there is never implied to be a difference. its that simple. V3 susano itself was the boost.

All assertions backed up by zero arguments and therefore another literally worthless post. I asked you to give me an argument, you just string up a bunch of baseless assertions as per usual.

because sasuke does not have it. that is kaguyas eye. this is what happens when you cannot properly interpret the manga or the databook.

So you're saying there's literally zero difference between sasuke's eye and a normal rinnegan? If that's so then why does sasuke's eye have 6 sharingans in it just like the eye of the rinnesharingan?

the fact that he had awakened the rinnegan the moment after hagoromo gave him his chakra. there is also the fact that the databook says that sasuke received the rinnegan from hagoromo.

the biju chakra in naruto was dormant until hagoromo came along. he is the one that called the biju out. the six paths chakra that hagoromo gave naruto is why he could use six paths senjutsu.

can you link me to where you're getting this information from?

the 3rd raikage tanked rasenshuriken already so im not sure how my stance has to support what you are saying. can he also tank chou odama rasenshuriken. why not?

the third raikage got his RnY blown off and scratches all on his body from the rasenshuriken. He was also incapacitated long enough for the shinobi alliance to get their sealing robes around him. Sandaime raikage w/o his RnY up is massively less durable than with it, allowing a group of fuuton users to inflict deep cuts into him despite being a much weaker fuuton

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Even if SM chou oodama rasenshuriken was twice as powerful as a normal one, it would have easily destroyed sandaime raikage. Now you're claiming that madara wasn't destroyed by it an attack that's not just 2x but more than a hundred times more powerful than that rasenshuriken which immediatley leads to the conclusion that madara is incomparably more durable than sandaime raikage.

the 3rd raikage isnt even relevant. you keep bringing him up to try and divert attention from your lack of a proper argument.

This is a perfect example of how utterly clueless you are about how arguments work. If your argument necessitates you to hold a view that's highly improbable or has an overwhelming amount of evidence against it, then that's a huge blow to your argument. The third raikage got an entire chapter devoted to his ability to withstand a normal-sized fuuton rasenshuriken. His durability was hyped so much that he was called the 'strongest shield' and had 'a body that could survive any kind of attack'. If edo madara survived a senpou chou oodama rasenhuriken, something that's over a hundred times larger than what the jutsu that was used to test sandaime raikage's durability, then we should expect madara to also have massive durability hype and feats as well. Yet he doesn't, he doesn't have anything remotely impressive as he gets kicked in half by lee, gets punctured by normal swords and gets taken out an entire chapter by AT despite it having to go through susanoo first.
So that's a major blow to your argument as the abilities you're attributing to madara or rasenshuriken via this one statement are massively out of line with the rest of the manga. Therefore objective truth-seeker to do would be to posit how the statement could still be true while keeping consistency in the manga which is what I've tried to do. On the otherhand the bias agenda pusher will not care about whether facts support his argument, as long as he has a shred of evidence he'll just stick to it no matter what because his objectivity is compromised. And you are a perfect example of that.

 

[Xlad]

How could I surpass you, lanakui8? ;-;

 

[TheSages456]

Ei's chakra levels increased in order for him to do liger bomb.

im asking you where it was stated but you keep refusing to post any sort of panel.

The only known way he does that is amping his cloak up just like he did in order to evade sasuke's amaterasu. So nope, ei amped his cloak up giving him the power to do liger bomb. Not only that, but even if the cloak only increased his speed, that still makes Ei's chop against sasuke's susanoo much stronger than the same thing in V1 since both the shunshin he uses for his forward movement to hit sasuke's susanoo and the speed of his chop would increase proportionally. So nope, it's still a much stronger hit.

That absolutely renders your argument void since you now have zero positive evidence that an EMS susanoo is actually more durable than an MS susanoo. MS ribcages can vary in size as well, just like EMS ribcages can. Therefore if your only evidence was an instance where an EMS user used a much bigger and more developed ribcage than an MS user, then you have no argument as it's most likely th case that the EMS user's construct is more durable due to the size. So nope.

concession accepted since you not only ignored Ei stopping before he hit sasuke which would not make it a full power hit, but you also ignored that he used an actual technique against madara and couldnt break his susano while having much more momentum.
this also disregards the fact that Ei needed onoki in order to break his ribcage which wouldnt be necessary if Ei could break it by himself.

an ems susano is more durable simply because it is more durable. Ei empowered by onoki has more speed(when onoki makes him lighter) and strength(when onoki makes him heavier) than V2 Ei.
the ribcage is a stage of susano. its size cannot be increased beyond what it normally would be. the ribcage of an ems user(or madara more specifically) is naturally that large. a smaller ribcage was not shown, so that is the basic ribcage.

and why is this source any more credible than mangapanda or mangastreams translations? Not only that, but you've ignored and thus conceded all of the other arguments that you've quoted and have not addressed.

because both of those sources have made mistakes in their translations before. because the translators intentionally put in words that arent in the original text to make it more enjoyable to read for american audiences(*********** mostly does this).

Plus, in the best case scenario and hashi's statement is literally true, then it's most likely that case that madara protected himself from the attack with his absorption abilities after being hit with it initially.

Hashi : This Wood Dragon will suck up your chakra.
With this you won't be able to use your chakra sucking ninjutsu.

In other words, you won't be able to absorb the next jutsu.

directly contradicted by the manga.

The bolded is logically incoherent with your stance. a normal rasenshuriken is far stronger than 25 sm chou oodama rasengans. An normall chou oodama rasengan is incomparably weaker than a senpou chou oodama rasengan, madara wouldn't have even been damaged by that attack if he could survive a senpou FRS, let alone a senpou FRS a hundred times bigger than normal.

if madara survived chou odama frs, that means that he can survive it. it doesnt mean that weaker attacks wouldnt even phaze him.

Um, yes it does. A senpou chou oodama rasenshuriken is at least a hundred times larger than a regular one, if that can't even destroy madara's body then a normal-sized one isn't going to do anything to him.

it will simply do less damage than chou odama rasenshuriken. just because an attack stronger than rasenshuriken did not destroy madara, doesnt mean that rasenshuriken will do zero damage.

The bolded is you conceding this point as well since i literally went over the fact that I didn't need to prove when hashirama cast his jutsu since the dust settles slowly either way. So if hashirama cast his jutsu a long time ago and the dust was still there, the rasenshuriken dust had to have settled a much much longer time ago, therefore it makes zero difference and you are just restating a defeated point.

So this is once again a concession on your part as you're forced to literally ignore my argument which shows that when hashirama cast his jutsu is irrelevant since either way, it was long after the dust from SM chou oodama rasenshuriken settled, giving madara way more than enough time to regenerate if the attack didn't completely destroy him.

and you can prove how much dust rasenshuriken kicked up in the first place and how fast that dust cleared? no you cannot. either way it makes no difference to my point as madara wasnt destroyed, so arguing about this point means nothing.

Who said anything about rasenshuriken vs susanoo? I wanted to get peoples honest and objective opinions about the size of susanoo vs bm naruto's avatar. That's got nothing to do with preconceived notions, people who don't have a clue about what naruto is can come into the thread and just identifying if the two objects in question are the same size. It's absolutely disgusting that someone like you will claim that I'm being dishonest, yet will turn around and claim that both the susanoo under naruto's tail and the body of naruto's construct are the same size in this scan:

Spoiler

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Anyways, you claiming that pretty much shows that you have no desire at all to argue truth, you just don't care.

you keep ignoring the fact that the tails are bigger than the main body. its funny how you say that i ignore your posts, but you refuse to acknowledge that point.

....the fact that he has his chakra and attention spread across thousands of individuals, the fact that he uses nothing that he was shown capable of almost a hundred chapters back. Now where's your proof that naruto WASN'T restricted?

naruto used biju mode which is his strongest form. im not sure how naruto was restricted. regardless of how much chakra he spread, he still had enough to utilize his full power.

Since when did sasuke match bijuudama? Firing attacks at the same time in no way shape or form mean equality. Sasuke's strongest susanoo attacks: sword slashes, were only doing as much damage as mere tail and claw swipes from naruto.

it took both sasukes arrow and kuramas bijudama to break obitos truthseeker shield. sasukes sword strikes and kuramas physical attacks didnt break the shield. that makes it obvious enough that sasukes arrow is stronger than his sword strikes.

Naruto NOT sharing his chakra with others means he gets all that chakra for himself. So what if naruto had enough chakra for bijuu mode and had taken chakra from yin kurama? If he's fighting 1 vs 1, all that chakra is for himself, and it's no where near naruto's actual reserves since all of his chakra got drained by the shinjuu prior, and minato was no where near his maximum when he gave naruto his chakra for BM.

irrelevant since naruto did everything that he would usually do even though he didnt have the extra chakra. it doesnt matter if minato was not near his max. he doesnt have to be in order to restore naruto who was not completely out of chakra.

It's actually not, their strongest move is bijuu rasengan. Plus, since this is BM Naruto we're talking about, his rasenshurikens are so powerful that they can

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The same tails that can withstand bijuudama and fuutons incomparably more powerful than the ones danzou used to blow open sasuke's V3.

what feats does bijudama rasengan have that allow it to destroy susano? an arbitrary assumption isnt going to cut it.

the wings on the chakra bird cut the tails, not rasenshuriken.

Spoiler

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yellow is the outline of the crater, the red is the outline of the meteor:

Spoiler

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The meteors are just as tall as the crater is long, and

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Spoiler

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the black outline is where the edge of the crater really is.

The bolded is in no way shape or form a positive argument, in this very area there are mountains that are incomparably smaller than the one you've circled.

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there are mountain ranges beind completely dwared by just a portion of debris produced by one of the meteors. So nope, you have zero evidence that the mountains are anywhere near the same size.

how about the scan which shows a fully formed meteor only being as big as the shinjus trunk?

the mountains around VOTE are the same as the mountains around the shinju.

Spoiler

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I did as i've shown you that it can oneshot superdurable meteors that are

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which gives Sasuke's PS the feats to easily fodderize something much smaller and less durable.

you didnt prove that the meteors were more durable than things like PS or shinsuusenju. you are mistaken. the meteors are not as big as the crater that PS and the mokujin were fighting in.
they are only as big as the shinjus trunk.

All assertions backed up by zero arguments and therefore another literally worthless post. I asked you to give me an argument, you just string up a bunch of baseless assertions as per usual.

my argument doesnt contradict the manga. you think that you can simply say whatever you want then put the burden of proof on me in order to prove it wrong.
im going to need proof of susanos slash becoming stronger when that wasnt shown. instead it being powered up was what allowed it to evolve to V3.

So you're saying there's literally zero difference between sasuke's eye and a normal rinnegan? If that's so then why does sasuke's eye have 6 sharingans in it just like the eye of the rinnesharingan?

sasukes eye is not the same as kaguyas, so what is your point? the manga simply calls sasukes eye a rinnegan. why are you asking me why it has tomoe? thats just the way kishi designed it.

can you link me to where you're getting this information from?

Amenotejikara (Heaven Hand Power):

A Ninjutsu using the Rinnegan received from the Sage of Six Paths. With in a certain range, the user of the technique can switch himself with the location of a target object in an instant. If the user switches himself with other objects in close-range combat, the user can evade enemy attacks in an instant, and can also attack by switching himself with a kunai or other weapon.

the third raikage got his RnY blown off and scratches all on his body from the rasenshuriken. He was also incapacitated long enough for the shinobi alliance to get their sealing robes around him. Sandaime raikage w/o his RnY up is massively less durable than with it, allowing a group of fuuton users to inflict deep cuts into him despite being a much weaker fuuton

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Even if SM chou oodama rasenshuriken was twice as powerful as a normal one, it would have easily destroyed sandaime raikage. Now you're claiming that madara wasn't destroyed by it an attack that's not just 2x but more than a hundred times more powerful than that rasenshuriken which immediatley leads to the conclusion that madara is incomparably more durable than sandaime raikage.

naruto stated that the rasenshuriken had no effect. rasenshuriken affected the 3rd raikage less than chou odama rasenshuriken affected madara.
the raikage got hit then got back up with his shroud reactivating.
@bold- says who? where are you getting these numbers from?

This is a perfect example of how utterly clueless you are about how arguments work. If your argument necessitates you to hold a view that's highly improbable or has an overwhelming amount of evidence against it, then that's a huge blow to your argument. The third raikage got an entire chapter devoted to his ability to withstand a normal-sized fuuton rasenshuriken. His durability was hyped so much that he was called the 'strongest shield' and had 'a body that could survive any kind of attack'. If edo madara survived a senpou chou oodama rasenhuriken, something that's over a hundred times larger than what the jutsu that was used to test sandaime raikage's durability, then we should expect madara to also have massive durability hype and feats as well. Yet he doesn't, he doesn't have anything remotely impressive as he gets kicked in half by lee, gets punctured by normal swords and gets taken out an entire chapter by AT despite it having to go through susanoo first.
So that's a major blow to your argument as the abilities you're attributing to madara or rasenshuriken via this one statement are massively out of line with the rest of the manga. Therefore objective truth-seeker to do would be to posit how the statement could still be true while keeping consistency in the manga which is what I've tried to do. On the otherhand the bias agenda pusher will not care about whether facts support his argument, as long as he has a shred of evidence he'll just stick to it no matter what because his objectivity is compromised. And you are a perfect example of that.

my argument necessitates nothing since what i am saying is directly stated in the manga. you dont want to accept madara surviving rasenshuriken despite it being blatantly stated because to you it doesnt make "logical sense". whatever the author wants to happen takes precedence over fan logic.

what you are trying to do is give yourself authority on par with the author and that does not work.

 

[Conspirator.]

Naruto wins.

 

[lanakui8]

im asking you where it was stated but you keep refusing to post any sort of panel.

If you want to impose that burden of proof on my arguments, you have to be able to fulfill it with yours. So do you have a panel where it's stated that the cloak doesn't increase his strength? If not, then why do my arguments have to meet a standard of evidence that yours aren't subject to?

concession accepted since you not only ignored Ei stopping before he hit sasuke which would not make it a full power hit, but you also ignored that he used an actual technique against madara and couldnt break his susano while having much more momentum.
this also disregards the fact that Ei needed onoki in order to break his ribcage which wouldnt be necessary if Ei could break it by himself.

Ei stopping is irrelevant since shunshin allows the user to instantly move at their max speed, that's how ei avoided amaterasu. Against madara, ei wasn't even using shunshin to aid his hit as he was just being pulled down by the force of gravity. Plus, you don't even know what warrants a concession, a concession is only warranted when the other person is forced to ignore your arguments. Where did I ignore your arguments? all assertions I've made have been backed up by reasoning.

an ems susano is more durable simply because it is more durable. Ei empowered by onoki has more speed(when onoki makes him lighter) and strength(when onoki makes him heavier) than V2 Ei.
the ribcage is a stage of susano. its size cannot be increased beyond what it normally would be. the ribcage of an ems user(or madara more specifically) is naturally that large. a smaller ribcage was not shown, so that is the basic ribcage.

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So nope, EMS ribcages aren't naturally that large, they're as large as the user wants them to be with a maximum limit. So that pretty much destroyed your argument for an EMS susanoo being more durable than an MS susanoo at the same level. What's worse, this size variation also applies to V3 susanoos considering

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So this has defeated two of your arguments in one go: 1) that EMS susanoo is more durable than an MS susanoo when both are of the same size and stage and 2) that V3 legged susanoo = BM Naruto's avatar since the size of V3s can vary and therefore you'd at best would be able to equate ones that are as big as the body of naruto's avatar to BM naruto's avatar.

because both of those sources have made mistakes in their translations before. because the translators intentionally put in words that arent in the original text to make it more enjoyable to read for american audiences(*********** mostly does this).

and the source you've gotten it from hasn't made any mistakes before?

Hashi : This Wood Dragon will suck up your chakra.
With this you won't be able to use your chakra sucking ninjutsu.

In other words, you won't be able to absorb the next jutsu.

directly contradicted by the manga.

except that's only what hashirama thinks will happen. If Madara's body wasn't destroyed then, he was simply mistaken about the degree to which his dragons hindered madara's absorption abilities.

if madara survived chou odama frs, that means that he can survive it. it doesnt mean that weaker attacks wouldnt even phaze him.

Sure, but at the same time that doesn't mean that he'll be phazed by all weaker attacks. I've shown why the difference between SM chou oodama rasenshuriken and a base chou oodama rasengan is so great that madara wouldn't have even been harme by the attack, yet he still is forced into bringing out the EMS when confronted with the jutsu. So nope.

it will simply do less damage than chou odama rasenshuriken. just because an attack stronger than rasenshuriken did not destroy madara, doesnt mean that rasenshuriken will do zero damage.

Who said the rasenshuriken would do zero damage? It just wouldn't do anything significant to him, which would be impossible since the attack pushed him to bringing out his rinnegan. Madara only ups the level of his jutsu when pushed to it, there's no reason why he'd bring out the rinnegan unless confronted by an attack that would defeat him.

and you can prove how much dust rasenshuriken kicked up in the first place and how fast that dust cleared? no you cannot. either way it makes no difference to my point as madara wasnt destroyed, so arguing about this point means nothing.

As explaind countless times, I don't have a burden of proof to literally with 100% certaintly prove anything since you can't do it either. If you want to assert that burden of proof on my arguments, then you'd have to prove all of the interpretations of the statemens you're trying to assert as truth are true, and you can't.

The best analysis of how much dust the rasenshuriken kickedu p in the first place and how fast it cleared would be to scale the dust from other rasenshurikens and how fast the dust in the area clears. Considering it took a while for the dust that the tori gates made to clear, yet there's zero dust from the chou oodama rasenshuriken by the time hashi immobilizes madara the only way madara could have been immobilized long enough for hashi to pin him is if he was recovering from complete disintegration.

you keep ignoring the fact that the tails are bigger than the main body. its funny how you say that i ignore your posts, but you refuse to acknowledge that point.

This is again concessionary dishonesty on your part. If you actually read the post you've just quoted, I literally state that you'd be comparing the body of susanoo to the body of Naruto's avatar. So the tails are completely irrelevant, you could pretend they don't even exist, just look at the body of the susanoo and the body of Naruto's avatar. Are they the same size?

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This just proves your bias because there's absolutely no way anyone with a shred of intent for an honest discussion would be able to assert that both are the same size. Plus, I've already shown that madara can greatly vary the sizes of his susanoo, so nothing requires legged susanoo to be the size of a bijuu.

naruto used biju mode which is his strongest form. im not sure how naruto was restricted. regardless of how much chakra he spread, he still had enough to utilize his full power.

...that's another concession on your part as in the post you've quoted I've given reasons why naruto was restricted despite him being in his strongest form. @ the bolded, Naruto's full power is his strongest form with his max amount of chakra, if naruto only has half of his chakra or a portion he can't use his strongest moves, or can't use them as frequently which massively cuts his battle prowess. Therefore him being able to merely use his strongest form in no way means he was using his full power or was at full power.

it took both sasukes arrow and kuramas bijudama to break obitos truthseeker shield. sasukes sword strikes and kuramas physical attacks didnt break the shield. that makes it obvious enough that sasukes arrow is stronger than his sword strikes.

What is the bolded based on? if it takes 100 damage to break obito's truthseeker shield, why do both attacks have to be equal? Why can't one attack be massively superior to the other, the only thing that's set in stone is that at the end of the day both combined equals 100.

Sasuke's arrow isn't as strong as his sword strikes proven by their penetration feats at lower levels of susanoo. Plus, again, sasuke's arrow being an unspecified factor of the equation that destroyed obito's truth seeker shield in no way puts it on the level of the bijuudama that was fired alongside of it.

Then there's the fact that naruto, even in BM, is able to create bijuudamas multiple times the size of his atual body, and fire bijuudamas in barrages of 5. Sasuke has never shown that capability, therefore he's not naruto's equal even if your argument is given the massive benefit of the doubt.

irrelevant since naruto did everything that he would usually do even though he didnt have the extra chakra. it doesnt matter if minato was not near his max. he doesnt have to be in order to restore naruto who was not completely out of chakra.

The bolded is a baseless assertion, refuted by the fact that naruto didn't use clones, super bijuudamas and rapidfire bijuudamas. So nope.

what feats does bijudama rasengan have that allow it to destroy susano? an arbitrary assumption isnt going to cut it.

What feats does susanoo have that allow it to withstand bijuudama rasengan? Anyways the biggest attempted bijuudama rasengans are in between the sizes of kn4s and kn6's bijuudamas, and that would give them more than enough power to destroy V3 legged susanoos considering madara's senjutsu enhanced one got obliterated by tail slaps, the fact that V3s get blown open by fuutons that don't even get any power hype and are vastly inferior to FRS, and naruto used a mini bijuudama rasenshuriken in response to madara using susanoo through the gunbai implying naruto's attack would destroyed that defense.

the wings on the chakra bird cut the tails, not rasenshuriken.

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Your interpretation is easily incorrect. The left wing of the bird cut the tails closest to the camera, however the beak of the bird went through the tail that's furthest from the camera.

Not only that, but your interpretation is also defficient in explanatory power. Naruto is shown with two rasenshuriken before the tails are cut, he jumps and thrusts one of the rasenshuriken forward at one of the tails, we see the tails are cut, and then we see naruto without the rasenshuriken he just used. Where did that rasenshuriken go? If naruto is at the tip of the beak, and the beak never touches the juubi's tails, what did naruto slam the rasenshuriken into?

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the black outline is where the edge of the crater really is.

how about the scan which shows a fully formed meteor only being as big as the shinjus trunk?

The black outline is absolutely not the crater.

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the branches of the shinjuu have a greater span than the crater. We can even see that when obito first uses the shinjuu, it's roots completely dwarf the barrier obito made and the crater that housed the barrier:

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What you've mistakenly outlined as the crater is in fact the outer crater that was created by tenpenchii.

the mountains around VOTE are the same as the mountains around the shinju.

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Once again, mountains can massively vary in size, even when both are in the same general area. This scan is a perfect example:

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So just saying they are in the same area is irrelevant, you have to show how big the two mountains you are comparing actually are.

you didnt prove that the meteors were more durable than things like PS or shinsuusenju. you are mistaken. the meteors are not as big as the crater that PS and the mokujin were fighting in.
they are only as big as the shinjus trunk.

Sure I did. The meteors are far larger than shinsuusenjuu, and incomparably larger than PS, and are super durable as even tiny ones take almost no damage from attacks that can vaporize a mountain.

On the otherhand, you didn't prove that the meteors are LESS durable than things like PS or shinsuusenjuu, and your attempt to make the meteors far smaller than they actually are by saying the outer crater = the inner crater was refuted.

my argument doesnt contradict the manga. you think that you can simply say whatever you want then put the burden of proof on me in order to prove it wrong.
im going to need proof of susanos slash becoming stronger when that wasnt shown. instead it being powered up was what allowed it to evolve to V3.

You are making a positive claim to knowledge, therefore you have the burden of proof to support your claim with an argument. "not contradicting the manga" means nothing, I could argue that there are invisible ninja elephants that no one knows about floating around the NV's planet and it wouldn't contradict the manga since there's no evidence against it, yet does that mean it's true?

Susanoo is a jutsu, if you use more powerful chakra for the jutsu, the jutsu in turn gets more powerful. When Sasuke's susanoo was enhanced by senjutsu, it didn't gain any new levels, when madara's V3 was enhanced by senjutsu it didn't gain additional levels either. There's no evidence for your assertion that Naruto's chakra just made Sasuke's susanoo a bijuu-sized V3 without powering the susanoo up. In fact, that doesn't even make sense since after sasuke loses naruto's chakra he uses an even more advanced form of susanoo with nothing indicating the power of his chakra increased other than circular reasoning.

There's even more evidence such as 5 madara's V3 susanoos just barely having the power to get through gaara's auto-defense while Sasuke's susanoo could casually cut through a mountain-sized shinjuu branch.

sasukes eye is not the same as kaguyas, so what is your point? the manga simply calls sasukes eye a rinnegan. why are you asking me why it has tomoe? thats just the way kishi designed it.

What does the manga call Kaguya's eye? Why in the world would kishi make sasuke only have 1 rinnegan, and have his rinnegan look identicle to the rinne-sharingan if it's just another rinnegan?

Amenotejikara (Heaven Hand Power):

A Ninjutsu using the Rinnegan received from the Sage of Six Paths. With in a certain range, the user of the technique can switch himself with the location of a target object in an instant. If the user switches himself with other objects in close-range combat, the user can evade enemy attacks in an instant, and can also attack by switching himself with a kunai or other weapon.

okay.

naruto stated that the rasenshuriken had no effect. rasenshuriken affected the 3rd raikage less than chou odama rasenshuriken affected madara.
the raikage got hit then got back up with his shroud reactivating.
@bold- says who? where are you getting these numbers from?

Naruto's statement was hyperbole as sandaime raikage's body was visually scratched up, we saw edo papers were emitted, and he was incapacitated long enough for the sealing squad's robes to get around him.

Temari's far inferior fuuton was able to leave deep cuts in sandaime raikage's body, yet the shinobi alliance are claiming that

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I literally explained where I got 2 times from. The first one blew off his shroud and did some minor damage, considering temari's far inferior fuuton left deep cuts on his body and she was blown away at the power of the fuuton rasenshuriken, he would not be able to survive one if it hit him uncloaked. Therefore 2x. If you don't agree with the reasoning, post a counterargument.

my argument necessitates nothing since what i am saying is directly stated in the manga. you dont want to accept madara surviving rasenshuriken despite it being blatantly stated because to you it doesnt make "logical sense". whatever the author wants to happen takes precedence over fan logic.

what you are trying to do is give yourself authority on par with the author and that does not work.

So once again, you've been forced to literally ignore the post you've just quoted. It's completely and utterly irrelevant if you're taking statements directly from the manga, the truth that you're deriving from those statements STILL necessitate things. If Ei claims that he's the fastest shinobi alive, then if that statement is true, then Ei has to be faster than all the other shinobi who are alive, it's logically necessary. If Itachi claims that only a sharingan user can beat him, then if you are to take that statement as true, it's necessary for you to believe that anyone without a sharingan can't beat itachi.

At best, your argument would show the statement claiming that madara's body wasn't completely destroyed by the attack. If you're going to argue that madara withstood the attack because of his sheer durability, then there are a ton of other things that are necessary for you to accept as true as well. One of them is that madara's body is incomparably more durable than Sandaime raikage's. Another is that madara had no reason to use susanoo or block FRS since the former is incomparably weaker than the later which is in turn incomparably weaker than the attack that couldn't even defeat madara. The things that your argument necessitates as true are completely out of line with what the powers and abilities of both madara and the rasenshuriken, which is why your argument is massively implausible.

 

[TheSages456]

If you want to impose that burden of proof on my arguments, you have to be able to fulfill it with yours. So do you have a panel where it's stated that the cloak doesn't increase his strength? If not, then why do my arguments have to meet a standard of evidence that yours aren't subject to?

i dont have to get a scan that states the cloak does not increase his strength. thats ridiculous.

nowhere in the manga is it stated that the cloak increases his strength.

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every scan you find after that will never say that Eis strength increases from his shroud. it will talk about how the shroud increases his speed and nothing else.

Ei stopping is irrelevant since shunshin allows the user to instantly move at their max speed, that's how ei avoided amaterasu. Against madara, ei wasn't even using shunshin to aid his hit as he was just being pulled down by the force of gravity. Plus, you don't even know what warrants a concession, a concession is only warranted when the other person is forced to ignore your arguments. Where did I ignore your arguments? all assertions I've made have been backed up by reasoning.

Ei stopped right next to sasuke, then chopped him. he was not using shunshin when he hit susano, neither did his feet even move after stopping next to sasuke.

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So nope, EMS ribcages aren't naturally that large, they're as large as the user wants them to be with a maximum limit. So that pretty much destroyed your argument for an EMS susanoo being more durable than an MS susanoo at the same level. What's worse, this size variation also applies to V3 susanoos considering

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So this has defeated two of your arguments in one go: 1) that EMS susanoo is more durable than an MS susanoo when both are of the same size and stage and 2) that V3 legged susanoo = BM Naruto's avatar since the size of V3s can vary and therefore you'd at best would be able to equate ones that are as big as the body of naruto's avatar to BM naruto's avatar.

this can merely be chalked up to artistic inconsistency. the ribcage in the bottom right panel of the scan you posted is smaller than the ribcage in the bottom left panel of the scan.

madaras ribcage is huge on this page.

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but is smaller on this page.

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unless you want to argue that madara purposely made his ribcage smaller when he was being attacked by all the kage which is ridiculous.

after rereading the entire madara fight kishi just inconsistently shows the size of ribcage susano. it has nothing to do with an ems ribcage naturally being larger.

the susano that sasuke uses to block the liger bomb in the top and bottom left panel

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has some of its ribs broken,

and it is also the same size as the ribcage that madara uses here.

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this ribcage needed tsunade(who is stated to be stronger than Ei) and a onoki weighted Ei just to cause enough damage to susano to knock madara out of the form unlike sasukes who raikage can damage on his lonesome.
tsunade who is stronger than Ei did not break madaras ribcage in one hit. all of this would put madaras ribcage above ms sasukes.

the size inconsistencies with the ribcage dont really mean anything. kishi simply draws it randomly and feats from all ribcage susano can be compared.

what madara used in the scan you posted was not V3 susano. it was V2 which is obvious because it only a skeletal structure with no skin and he only manifested part of its body.

and the source you've gotten it from hasn't made any mistakes before?

scanlators insert words that arent in the original text to make the read more enjoyable to american audiences. this can compound with their translations not being entirely perfect.

the chance of mistakes are kinda unlikely when the people doing the translations are native to japan.

except that's only what hashirama thinks will happen. If Madara's body wasn't destroyed then, he was simply mistaken about the degree to which his dragons hindered madara's absorption abilities.

nonsense. are you really honestly reading this manga? there is absolutely no way that a person with absolutely no bias can read that page and interpret it the way you did. there is absolutely no manga basis for anything that you just said, but i expect you to say that i "conceded" this point.

Sure, but at the same time that doesn't mean that he'll be phazed by all weaker attacks. I've shown why the difference between SM chou oodama rasenshuriken and a base chou oodama rasengan is so great that madara wouldn't have even been harme by the attack, yet he still is forced into bringing out the EMS when confronted with the jutsu. So nope.


Who said the rasenshuriken would do zero damage? It just wouldn't do anything significant to him, which would be impossible since the attack pushed him to bringing out his rinnegan. Madara only ups the level of his jutsu when pushed to it, there's no reason why he'd bring out the rinnegan unless confronted by an attack that would defeat him.

all attacks weaker than COFRS will not faze madara. that is correct. if madara feels the need to block or use susano to block something however, that shows that the attack would have affected him to some extent if it hit.

madara surviving COFRS is a stated fact so again, what are you trying to say here?

kaguya blocked narutos punches. does that mean that those punches wouldve killed her?

@bold-you did. thats what you said i must be thinking if madara can live COFRS.

As explaind countless times, I don't have a burden of proof to literally with 100% certaintly prove anything since you can't do it either. If you want to assert that burden of proof on my arguments, then you'd have to prove all of the interpretations of the statemens you're trying to assert as truth are true, and you can't.

The best analysis of how much dust the rasenshuriken kickedu p in the first place and how fast it cleared would be to scale the dust from other rasenshurikens and how fast the dust in the area clears. Considering it took a while for the dust that the tori gates made to clear, yet there's zero dust from the chou oodama rasenshuriken by the time hashi immobilizes madara the only way madara could have been immobilized long enough for hashi to pin him is if he was recovering from complete disintegration.

nope, already refuted by hashiramas statement which you keep ignoring, so i accept your concession on this part.
Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.


the sooner you stop being dishonest, the sooner this debate can move forward, because it seems rather circular at this point.

This is again concessionary dishonesty on your part. If you actually read the post you've just quoted, I literally state that you'd be comparing the body of susanoo to the body of Naruto's avatar. So the tails are completely irrelevant, you could pretend they don't even exist, just look at the body of the susanoo and the body of Naruto's avatar. Are they the same size?

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This just proves your bias because there's absolutely no way anyone with a shred of intent for an honest discussion would be able to assert that both are the same size. Plus, I've already shown that madara can greatly vary the sizes of his susanoo, so nothing requires legged susanoo to be the size of a bijuu.

the body if susano is obscured by the tails, but based on what i can see, yes they are in the same ballpark of size minus kuramas tails.

compare shukaku to the sand pyramid.

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then look at how big V3 susano is compared to it.

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...that's another concession on your part as in the post you've quoted I've given reasons why naruto was restricted despite him being in his strongest form. @ the bolded, Naruto's full power is his strongest form with his max amount of chakra, if naruto only has half of his chakra or a portion he can't use his strongest moves, or can't use them as frequently which massively cuts his battle prowess. Therefore him being able to merely use his strongest form in no way means he was using his full power or was at full power.

he used bijudama. i wouldnt call that restricted. just because he didnt make one that was extra large doesnt mean that he was incapable of making one.

What is the bolded based on? if it takes 100 damage to break obito's truthseeker shield, why do both attacks have to be equal? Why can't one attack be massively superior to the other, the only thing that's set in stone is that at the end of the day both combined equals 100.

Sasuke's arrow isn't as strong as his sword strikes proven by their penetration feats at lower levels of susanoo. Plus, again, sasuke's arrow being an unspecified factor of the equation that destroyed obito's truth seeker shield in no way puts it on the level of the bijuudama that was fired alongside of it.

Then there's the fact that naruto, even in BM, is able to create bijuudamas multiple times the size of his atual body, and fire bijuudamas in barrages of 5. Sasuke has never shown that capability, therefore he's not naruto's equal even if your argument is given the massive benefit of the doubt.

The bolded is a baseless assertion, refuted by the fact that naruto didn't use clones, super bijuudamas and rapidfire bijuudamas. So nope.

bijudama is only massively superior in explosive power but that doesnt mean much since susanos arrow and bijudama are two completely different types of attacks.

there is no panel proving that sasukes sword strikes are stronger than his arrows. if you think such a panel exists, show it.

@bold-naruto not using clones or various bijudama variants does not prove that he was not at full power. he simply did not use those. clones wouldve been useless against ten tails obito so that a moot point.
naruto didnt even have the time to charge a super bijudama. obito wouldve simply stopped him. minato and naruto already tried that and obito interrupted them by summoning the shinju even long after they started charging it. your arguments are rather comical as they seem quite reminiscent of the arguments that every naruto fanboy uses.

What feats does susanoo have that allow it to withstand bijuudama rasengan? Anyways the biggest attempted bijuudama rasengans are in between the sizes of kn4s and kn6's bijuudamas, and that would give them more than enough power to destroy V3 legged susanoos considering madara's senjutsu enhanced one got obliterated by tail slaps, the fact that V3s get blown open by fuutons that don't even get any power hype and are vastly inferior to FRS, and naruto used a mini bijuudama rasenshuriken in response to madara using susanoo through the gunbai implying naruto's attack would destroyed that defense.

naruto used bijudama multiple pages after madara blocked the rods that naruto threw.

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the bold makes absolutely zero sense. kishi implied nothing by making naruto attack madara with bijudama rasengan. there is no relation between madara blocking the rods and naruto charging at madara.

narutos clone simply got mad at what madara and obito were saying and he rushed at them with an attack.


the bijus tail slaps have better feats than a bijudama rasengan which has no feats at all other than getting blocked and deflected.

the biggest bijudama rasengan that naruto made fits into the palm of his hand and the destruction wasnt very impressive.

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Your interpretation is easily incorrect. The left wing of the bird cut the tails closest to the camera, however the beak of the bird went through the tail that's furthest from the camera.

Not only that, but your interpretation is also defficient in explanatory power. Naruto is shown with two rasenshuriken before the tails are cut, he jumps and thrusts one of the rasenshuriken forward at one of the tails, we see the tails are cut, and then we see naruto without the rasenshuriken he just used. Where did that rasenshuriken go? If naruto is at the tip of the beak, and the beak never touches the juubi's tails, what did naruto slam the rasenshuriken into?

i dont need to give an explanation for what naruto did with the first rasenshuriken. all i need to prove is that the wings did indeed cut the tails as it is blatantly shown.

the left wing is aligned with the closest tail and the right wing is aligned with the farthest tail. the beak is between the tails therefore, rasenshuriken couldnt have touched either tail.

The black outline is absolutely not the crater.

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the branches of the shinjuu have a greater span than the crater. We can even see that when obito first uses the shinjuu, it's roots completely dwarf the barrier obito made and the crater that housed the barrier:

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really? the shinju has a greater span than the crater.

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another crater is created underneath the shinju later on when obito slams naruto and sasuke into the ground.

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that is not the crater that the shinju was summoned in. it was summoned inside the tenpenchii crater.

What you've mistakenly outlined as the crater is in fact the outer crater that was created by tenpenchii.

that was the crater that PS and the mokujin were fighting in. this is the same crater that the shinju was summoned in.

Once again, mountains can massively vary in size, even when both are in the same general area. This scan is a perfect example:

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So just saying they are in the same area is irrelevant, you have to show how big the two mountains you are comparing actually are.

what are you talking about? all the mountains in the scan i posted are the same size. the scan i showed contains mountains from around VOTE and around the shinju. there is no size difference.

the only mountains that appear smaller in the scan you posted are the mountains that are far away. this however is simply chalked up to perspective.

Sure I did. The meteors are far larger than shinsuusenjuu, and incomparably larger than PS, and are super durable as even tiny ones take almost no damage from attacks that can vaporize a mountain.

On the otherhand, you didn't prove that the meteors are LESS durable than things like PS or shinsuusenjuu, and your attempt to make the meteors far smaller than they actually are by saying the outer crater = the inner crater was refuted.

CT had gotten too big for kn6 to destroy. CT then gathered more rock which repaired the part of CT which kn6 destroyed. the rock itself is not super durable.

the "outer crater" is the tenpenchii crater and the "inner crater" is created when obito slams naruto and sasuke into the ground.

You are making a positive claim to knowledge, therefore you have the burden of proof to support your claim with an argument. "not contradicting the manga" means nothing, I could argue that there are invisible ninja elephants that no one knows about floating around the NV's planet and it wouldn't contradict the manga since there's no evidence against it, yet does that mean it's true?

the manga flat out agrees with my claims, my claims dont just "not contradict it".

Susanoo is a jutsu, if you use more powerful chakra for the jutsu, the jutsu in turn gets more powerful. When Sasuke's susanoo was enhanced by senjutsu, it didn't gain any new levels, when madara's V3 was enhanced by senjutsu it didn't gain additional levels either. There's no evidence for your assertion that Naruto's chakra just made Sasuke's susanoo a bijuu-sized V3 without powering the susanoo up. In fact, that doesn't even make sense since after sasuke loses naruto's chakra he uses an even more advanced form of susanoo with nothing indicating the power of his chakra increased other than circular reasoning.
There's even more evidence such as 5 madara's V3 susanoos just barely having the power to get through gaara's auto-defense while Sasuke's susanoo could casually cut through a mountain-sized shinjuu branch.

sasukes eye powers were empowered when he possessed the chakra. he doesnt need the chakra after the fact.

i already said that susano got more powerful. by narutos chakra sasukes eyes were empowered and this made his susano evolve.

What does the manga call Kaguya's eye? Why in the world would kishi make sasuke only have 1 rinnegan, and have his rinnegan look identicle to the rinne-sharingan if it's just another rinnegan?

it isnt named in the manga. its given a name in the databook. kaguyas eye is a rinnesharingan. sasukes eye is simply a rinnegan. they dont look identical at least in my opinion.
the rinnesharingan has more tomoes and it is red.

Naruto's statement was hyperbole as sandaime raikage's body was visually scratched up, we saw edo papers were emitted, and he was incapacitated long enough for the sealing squad's robes to get around him.

Temari's far inferior fuuton was able to leave deep cuts in sandaime raikage's body, yet the shinobi alliance are claiming that

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I literally explained where I got 2 times from. The first one blew off his shroud and did some minor damage, considering temari's far inferior fuuton left deep cuts on his body and she was blown away at the power of the fuuton rasenshuriken, he would not be able to survive one if it hit him uncloaked. Therefore 2x. If you don't agree with the reasoning, post a counterargument.

cuts dont mean much. thats simply cosmetic damage. the rasenshuriken took down the raikages armor and floored him for a small amount of time. all in all, naruto and the alliance stated that their attacks had no effect.

So once again, you've been forced to literally ignore the post you've just quoted. It's completely and utterly irrelevant if you're taking statements directly from the manga, the truth that you're deriving from those statements STILL necessitate things. If Ei claims that he's the fastest shinobi alive, then if that statement is true, then Ei has to be faster than all the other shinobi who are alive, it's logically necessary. If Itachi claims that only a sharingan user can beat him, then if you are to take that statement as true, it's necessary for you to believe that anyone without a sharingan can't beat itachi.

At best, your argument would show the statement claiming that madara's body wasn't completely destroyed by the attack. If you're going to argue that madara withstood the attack because of his sheer durability, then there are a ton of other things that are necessary for you to accept as true as well. One of them is that madara's body is incomparably more durable than Sandaime raikage's. Another is that madara had no reason to use susanoo or block FRS since the former is incomparably weaker than the later which is in turn incomparably weaker than the attack that couldn't even defeat madara. The things that your argument necessitates as true are completely out of line with what the powers and abilities of both madara and the rasenshuriken, which is why your argument is massively implausible.

you are saying that madara cannot survive COFRS based on "this, this and that".

the manga said that he did though. im going to say this very clearly. nothing you say on this subject matters when the manga already gave a verdict.

its your word and "logical reasoning" against the person who pulled his statement straight from the manga.

even more specifically, its your word and "logical reasoning" vs the manga. there is no discussion to be had on this subject.

you talk about my argument having to necessitate a ridiculous notion. your argument necessitates that you ignore hashiramas statement completely as well as the authors intent. that is absolutely unacceptable.

the manga stated that madara survived COFRS so that is what happened whether you want to accept it or not. there will be no more discussion of this point.
i will simply delete anything more you say on this point because what you are trying to argue is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[lanakui8]

i dont have to get a scan that states the cloak does not increase his strength. thats ridiculous.

nowhere in the manga is it stated that the cloak increases his strength.

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every scan you find after that will never say that Eis strength increases from his shroud. it will talk about how the shroud increases his speed and nothing else.

So if you can't produce a scan that says the cloak DOESN'T increase his power, why in the world would my arguments have to be burdened with that standard of evidence? That's a textbook example of a double standard. So nope, if you can't provide a scan to show the negative is true, then I don't have a burden of proof to show a scan that the positive is true in order for the conclusion that the positive is true to be selected as more porbable.

Ei stopped right next to sasuke, then chopped him. he was not using shunshin when he hit susano, neither did his feet even move after stopping next to sasuke.

I have no idea how you can make the claim that Ei's feet didn't move when the scans don't show his feet. Ei's entire body was traveling with forward momentum indicated by the speed lines, therefore he wasn't just standing he was moving forward and would have been using shunshin in order to do so since it aids the power of his attack. Plus, even if that weren't true his arm would still have been given the speed boost from the shroud and thus would have hit sasuke's susanoo at a much higher velocity than in V1 so nope.

this can merely be chalked up to artistic inconsistency. the ribcage in the bottom right panel of the scan you posted is smaller than the ribcage in the bottom left panel of the scan.

madaras ribcage is huge on this page.

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but is smaller on this page.

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unless you want to argue that madara purposely made his ribcage smaller when he was being attacked by all the kage which is ridiculous.

That can't be chalked up to artistic inconsistency since we have multiple scans of madara's tiny susanoo in that instance. Madara's ribcage took a number of attacks in between the two panels, as a result it just shrunk as it took more and more damage.

after rereading the entire madara fight kishi just inconsistently shows the size of ribcage susano. it has nothing to do with an ems ribcage naturally being larger.

the susano that sasuke uses to block the liger bomb in the top and bottom left panel

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has some of its ribs broken,

and it is also the same size as the ribcage that madara uses here.

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this ribcage needed tsunade(who is stated to be stronger than Ei) and a onoki weighted Ei just to cause enough damage to susano to knock madara out of the form unlike sasukes who raikage can damage on his lonesome.
tsunade who is stronger than Ei did not break madaras ribcage in one hit. all of this would put madaras ribcage above ms sasukes.

Even this doesn't hold up as evidence since Madara's ribcage was still

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and unlike Ei's liger bomb, tsunade and Ei's attack destroyed the susanoo madara was using.

So nope, all you've been able to produce so far are instances where people are up against a far larger EMS susanoo than an MS susanoo which of course isn't positive evidence for your assertion.

the size inconsistencies with the ribcage dont really mean anything. kishi simply draws it randomly and feats from all ribcage susano can be compared.

what madara used in the scan you posted was not V3 susano. it was V2 which is obvious because it only a skeletal structure with no skin and he only manifested part of its body.

Size inconsistency isn't in anyway an argument, it could be the case that sasuke's skeletal susanoo was even SMALLER than what is depicted in the manga, and madara's ribcage susanoo was even LARGER than what was depicted in the manga, or the extremes of both are even greater. So nope.

It doesn't even matter if it was a skeletal susanoo or not, madara's susanoo that he used was incomparably smaller than skeletal susanoos we've seen from even

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So once again, your arguments are untennable since susanoo of various stages can radically vary in size.

scanlators insert words that arent in the original text to make the read more enjoyable to american audiences. this can compound with their translations not being entirely perfect.

the chance of mistakes are kinda unlikely when the people doing the translations are native to japan.

Guess what? I did the translation myself and the scanlators were actually correct. The Japenese raw:

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Hashirama's statement in romanji: "Naruto no jutsu de taose wa shinakatta ga...."
The word in question here is "taose", "Naruto no jutsu" is "Naruto's jutsu" "taose wa shinakatta" is "didn't taose". The root word of "taose" is "taosu" and the definition of 'taosu' is :
1) to beat
2) to bring down
3) to throw down

source:

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If you need further proof, here's the kanji for 'taosu': 倒す you can copy and past it into google translate to confirm it and you can compare the kanji to the one in the raw to see if they match.

Therefore your source isn't the correct translation, mangapanda and ***********'s translations are correct. Hashirama said nothing about the jutsu destroying madara's body, he was only talking about defeating, beating or bringing down madara. So nope, the rasenshuriken most likely completely destroyed madara's body, it just couldn't beat him since it's not a fuuinjutsu.

nonsense. are you really honestly reading this manga? there is absolutely no way that a person with absolutely no bias can read that page and interpret it the way you did. there is absolutely no manga basis for anything that you just said, but i expect you to say that i "conceded" this point.

Well, yeah you just have conceded this point since you've just made a bunch of assertions. You haven't given any reason to back up your claims that I'm being biased. Not only that, but I've shown why my interpretation of the manga is far more supported: by the evidence of the rasenshuriken's power and madara's durability. Therefore due to the overwhelming amount of evidence against madara being able to withstand the attack, hashirama's statement was most likely not literally true as is the case for tons of other statements in this manga.

all attacks weaker than COFRS will not faze madara. that is correct. if madara feels the need to block or use susano to block something however, that shows that the attack would have affected him to some extent if it hit.

madara surviving COFRS is a stated fact so again, what are you trying to say here?

kaguya blocked narutos punches. does that mean that those punches wouldve killed her?

@bold-you did. thats what you said i must be thinking if madara can live COFRS.

If the bolded is true then it logically follows that madara didn't withtand SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken due to the arguments I've provided showing the gap between the power of that attack and a base chou oodama rasengan. Kaguya blocked naruto's punches with her arms and legs, madara couldn't have blocked chou oodama rasengan with his arms or legs, the attack was way too powerful which is why he was forced to up his level of power from base sharingan to the ems and bring out his absolute defense.

nope, already refuted by hashiramas statement which you keep ignoring, so i accept your concession on this part.
Hashi : Naruto's jutsu didn't completely destroy him.
But as far as his movements are concerned, he can't do anything.
Now we only have to wait a sealing ninja.


the sooner you stop being dishonest, the sooner this debate can move forward, because it seems rather circular at this point.

Yep so in light of the fact that your translation was incorrect and the original japanese raw said nothing about madara's body being destroyed only beaten, it seems you actually have to address that argument I've given.

the body if susano is obscured by the tails, but based on what i can see, yes they are in the same ballpark of size minus kuramas tails.

compare shukaku to the sand pyramid.

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then look at how big V3 susano is compared to it.

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Well then that's another concession on your part. Naruto's avatar is so much larger than Madara's susanoo that it could pick the susanoo up with just one hand. Using common body parts as reference, naruto's arms are multiple times the thickness and length of the susanoos arms. The scans you've brought up are totally irrelevant when we have a scan that shows both constructs in question in the same panel for verification.

So once again, this right here just proves that you'll stoop to any level of dishonesty in order to push your own personal agenda.

he used bijudama. i wouldnt call that restricted. just because he didnt make one that was extra large doesnt mean that he was incapable of making one.

So this is still you conceding the argument. I've given explict reasons why naruto was restricted, the only thing you've been able to say is "i wouldn't call that restricted" and "just because he didn't make one that was extra large doesn't mean that he was incapable of making one", the first completely ignores my argument which takes into account him using bijuudama and shows why despite that naruto is still restricted. The second isn't a positive argument, simply saying "it's possible" or "you can't prove it impossible" isn't a positive argument. SHOW naruto had that ability. In addition to that, the fact that sasuke was only able to match naruto when he didn't use his big guns shows sasuke's construct was not at naruto's level when he does use them.

bijudama is only massively superior in explosive power but that doesnt mean much since susanos arrow and bijudama are two completely different types of attacks.

there is no panel proving that sasukes sword strikes are stronger than his arrows. if you think such a panel exists, show it.

So the bolded is you implicitly asserting that the susanoo arrows and bijuudama possess the same amount of raw power behind there attacks. Now where's your evidence for such a claim? If you have none, then your assertion is baseless and thus worthless, therefore a concession of that point on your part.

Sure there's panels proving sasuke's sword strikes are stronger, he easily cuts through multiple pillars with a single sword strike

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, his arrow can't even penetrate a man-sized pillar and

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@bold-naruto not using clones or various bijudama variants does not prove that he was not a full power. he simply did not use those. clones wouldve been useless against ten tails obito so that a moot point.
naruto didnt even have the time to charge a super bijudama. obito wouldve simply stopped him. minato and naruto already tried that and obito interrupted them by summoning the shinju even long after they started charging it. your arguments are rather comical as they seem quite familiar with the arguments that every naruto fanboy uses.

So based on what would clones have been useles against ten tails obito?
If obito had to summon the shinjuu in order to stop naruto's charged bijuudama, how would he have stopped another one from naruto? The shinjuu was already out and it was busy fighting the entire cloaked alliance, what would obito have done? And based on what would he have been capable of doing it?

naruto used bijudama multiple pages after madara blocked the rods that naruto threw.

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the bold makes absolutely zero sense. kishi implied nothing by making naruto attack madara with bijudama rasengan. there is no relation between madara blocking the rods and naruto charging at madara.

narutos clone simply got mad at what madara and obito were saying and he rushed at them with an attack.

Naruto tried to hit madara with the chakra stakes he threw. After madara used susanoo through the gunbai to block it, Naruto's obvious next decision would be to use an attack that would render that defense moot which is the bijuudama rasengan. If it couldn't destroy madara's defense, then charging in like that would have had no purpose madara would have blocked naruto's attack just like he blocked the rods.

the bijus tail slaps have better feats than a bijudama rasengan which has no feats at all other than getting blocked and deflected.

So what? the bijuudama rasengan's power has never been tested via feats so a feat analysis would be disingenuous. The only possible way to analyze the power of it would be by hype or transitive feats, and giving it the transitive feats of KN4/KN6 bijuudama would easily put it above bijuudama tail slaps that don't even produce a crater in the ground.

the biggest bijudama rasengan that naruto made fits into the palm of his hand and the destruction wasnt very impressive.

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This is

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the only reason it failed is because he didn't master the 8:2 chakra ratio at that time. Now that he has, he's capable of making one that big.

i dont need to give an explanation for what naruto did with the first rasenshuriken. all i need to prove is that the wings did indeed cut the tails as it is blatantly shown.

the left wing is aligned with the closest tail and the right wing is aligned with the farthest tail. the beak is between the tails therefore, rasenshuriken couldnt have touched either tail.

You absolutely do have to give an explanation for what naruto did with the first rasenshuriken since your argument necessitates that Naruto and his rasenshuriken didn't even come into contact with the tails. Therefore your failure to do so is a flat out concession on your part as you've ignored my argument and have shown that the only way your arguments hold is if you ignore any and all parts of the manga that make them logically impossible.

Next, the right wing isn't aligned with the furthest tail, the beak is, that's why both tails get cut at the same time despite the one in the background being located

really? the shinju has a greater span than the crater.

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another crater is created underneath the shinju later on when obito slams naruto and sasuke into the ground.

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that is not the crater that the shinju was summoned in. it was summoned inside the tenpenchii crater.

Your scans are false on multiple accounts.

1) In the first scan you provided there's a crater beneath the shinjuu, it just isn't emphasized as much as it is later on.
2) You can literally see

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We know the shinjuu roots don't extend beyond the largest crater, juubito didn't slam naruto into the ground yet, therefore they had to have been in the crater from the scan I've provided earlier.
3)

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4)

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that shows the shinjuu roots extending far beyond the crater that the SA are in.
5)

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proves that there are already two craters, and that the alliance are fighting in the smaller, inner one.
6)

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makes it logically impossible for your stance to hold true since the debri from juubito's slam doesn't even reach the edge of the crater meaning it the slam itself couldn't have possibly created that crater, yet we see the branches of the shinjuu extending beyond that crater thus indicating it was the inner crater.
7)

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also makes it impossible for your stance to hold true since the

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yet when the bottom up view from the crater is given we get an almost perfectly clear view of the sky when we the shinjuu should have been centered above the crater thus obstructing most of the view.
8) then there's the fact that your scan of the shinjuu showed the roots extending to the ground in the crater beneath it, yet there's absolutely no roots seen in the crater that obito's meteor impact made, making it impossible for that to be the case.
9) then there's the fact that we know the

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didn't extend so far seaward that it made contact with the ocean, yet a good portion of the outer crater is so big that it

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10) then there's the fact that we saw how big

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and how

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making it impossible for the shinjuu to have been contained in the PS/mokujin crater.
11) Next we know the crater in which PS and mokujin were fighting in is pretty much flat, there are no mountains or hills, yet in the scan you provided, we see

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we see the shinjuu roots extending over the same kind of terrain in

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making your stance impossible.
12) The inner crater wasn't created by tenpenchii, it was made from

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The entire alliance vs juubi fight took place in that crater, it's consistent with the size of the crater we've seen PS and mokujin fight in.

that was the crater that PS and the mokujin were fighting in. this is the same crater that the shinju was summoned in.

what are you talking about? all the mountains in the scan i posted are the same size. the scan i showed contains mountains from around VOTE and around the shinju. there is no size difference.

the only mountains that appear smaller in the scan you posted are the mountains that are far away. this however is simply chalked up to perspective.

Sure the mountains in the scan you've posted are the same size, but that's irrelevant. Show me the mountains that PS destroyed and show that those are the same size as those mountains.

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there are tons of tiny mountains in the foreground and close to the ocean, they are incomparably smaller and shorter than some of the other mountains in the same picture.

So no you're going to have to do an actual panel vs panel analysis of the mountains PS was cutting.

CT had gotten too big for kn6 to destroy. CT then gathered more rock which repaired the part of CT which kn6 destroyed. the rock itself is not super durable.

the "outer crater" is the tenpenchii crater and the "inner crater" is created when obito slams naruto and sasuke into the ground.

If CT wasn't super durable, the KN6 bijuudama would have erased a mountain-sized portion of it, and then CT would have repaired the damage. That never happened,

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no crater no nothing in the CT. The rock that comprises CT isn't super durable, however CT compacts this rock making the entire construct super durable. That's why the crater that CT makes is

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That's also why it's a great strength feat for kurama to be able to tunnel out of CT. if it was just normal rock, even summons like manda would be able to do that.

the manga flat out agrees with my claims, my claims dont just "not contradict it".

....yet you've provided literally zero positive evidence for your arguments. Thus another worthless assertion on your part.

sasukes eye powers were empowered when he possessed the chakra. he doesnt need the chakra after the fact.

i already said that susano got more powerful. by narutos chakra sasukes eyes were empowered and this made his susano evolve.

The bolded makes absolutely no sense and has absolutely no positive evidence pertaining to it in the manga. Even if for Sasuke's eyes did get stronger from the chakra, he and his jutsu are still being powered up by kurama's yin and yang chakra. Therefore his eyes level up, he gets to use this bijuu-sized susanoo and on top of that this bijuusized susanoo is powered up by kurama's yin+yang chakra and juugo's senjutsu. After both powerups leave him, sasuke still possesses the ability to use his higher level of susanoo, but it's far weaker due to losing his powerups.
So this is you conceding the post as you've ignored my argument about sasuke's and madara's susanoos being powered up by senjutsu chakra.
You've also ignored and thus conceded the V3 = BM argument on the grounds of you ignoring 5 v3 susanoos barely being able to get through gaara's auto defense while Sasuke's casually cuts through the shinjuu.

Another thing I'd like you to answer is that if Sasuke's V3 wasn't powered up by the kyuubi's chakra, shouldn't Madara's V3 powered by hashirama's senjutsu be at least as powerful if not more? If so, why was madara's suanoo

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when his susanoo got hit by an incomparably weaker attack than

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cuts dont mean much. thats simply cosmetic damage.

Yep, so the statements were hyperbole, and not taken to be literally true. Also, since 'cuts don't mean much' isn't in anyway some kind of argument this would be you conceding that 2 rasenshuriken take out sandaime as well as his body was damaged despite naruto saying the rasenshuriken had no effect.

you are saying that madara cannot survive COFRS based on "this, this and that".

the manga said that he did though. im going to say this very clearly. nothing you say on this subject matters when the manga already gave a verdict.

its your word and "logical reasoning" against the person who pulled his statement straight from the manga.

even more specifically, its your word and "logical reasoning" vs the manga. there is no discussion to be had on this subject.

you talk about my argument having to necessitate a ridiculous notion. your argument necessitates that you ignore hashiramas statement completely as well as the authors intent. that is absolutely unacceptable.

the manga stated that madara survived COFRS so that is what happened whether you want to accept it or not. there will be no more discussion of this point.
i will simply delete anything more you say on this point because what you are trying to argue is absolutely ridiculous.

So are you saying that all statements in the manga are literally true? Do you believe that itachi can't be defeated by anyone who doesn't possess a sharingan? Do you believe that kakashi's raikiri can cut through anything? That no one can stop a blade of wind? That all jutsu become meaningless in front of neji's byakugan? Because once again, those are things your arguments necessitate in order to be true. That's the only way your argument which implicitly asserts that if someone states something in the manga, then it's true regardless of how much evidence is against it. Do you believe that? If not, then there's nothing about author's intent or hashirama's statement that's being ignored, they just have to be interpreted differently since their literal interpretation is a vast outlier from all other pieces of data we have on madara's durability and rasenshuriken's power.

And you know that, which is why you continuously are forced to just dodge all of these absolutely absurd things that would be necessarily true in order for the things you're asserting to also be true by just ignoring them.

But anyways, the manga never said anything about madara's body being destroyed so now you literally don't have any grounds for denying my arguments.

 

[Xlad]

Here are several things to note about manga statements:

- Kishimoto doesn't talk through his characters. He just writes the story based on how characters see things.
- Characters' words are based off of their experiences, thoughts/feeling. They are not absolute since there are contradicting events or facts that existed outside of what they experienced.
- Abilities changed overtime as well.

Just saying. Oh, and spoilers please.

 

[lanakui8]

Here are several things to note about manga statements:

- Kishimoto doesn't talk through his characters. He just writes the story based on how characters see things.
- Characters' words are based off of their experiences, thoughts/feeling. They are not absolute since there are contradicting events or facts that existed outside of what they experienced.
- Abilities changed overtime as well.

Just saying. Oh, and spoilers please.

hey i'd like your third party objective opinion on a scan.

if you look at this scan:

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would you say that madara's susanoo is bigger, smaller or the same size as Naruto's avatar (not counting the tails).

 

[Xlad]

hey i'd like your third party objective opinion on a scan.

if you look at this scan:

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would you say that madara's susanoo is bigger, smaller or the same size as Naruto's avatar (not counting the tails).

I was out; I'm sorry.

No way Madara's Susanoo is bigger than Naruto's avatar. Lol

It would be smaller than Naruto's avatar because I can actually see more of Madara's figure in this scan. [

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]

I can barely even see Naruto's cloak in that scan of yours. Not only that, Madara's Susanoo limbs, especially the arms, doesn't extend as far as the avatar's

 

[TheSages456]

this is my last post. your posts are too long with you saying the same nonsense over and over again even after i already countered it.

So if you can't produce a scan that says the cloak DOESN'T increase his power, why in the world would my arguments have to be burdened with that standard of evidence? That's a textbook example of a double standard. So nope, if you can't provide a scan to show the negative is true, then I don't have a burden of proof to show a scan that the positive is true in order for the conclusion that the positive is true to be selected as more porbable.


I have no idea how you can make the claim that Ei's feet didn't move when the scans don't show his feet. Ei's entire body was traveling with forward momentum indicated by the speed lines, therefore he wasn't just standing he was moving forward and would have been using shunshin in order to do so since it aids the power of his attack. Plus, even if that weren't true his arm would still have been given the speed boost from the shroud and thus would have hit sasuke's susanoo at a much higher velocity than in V1 so nope.

you want me to bring a scan of Eis foot stopping but you dont have to bring a scan which states or shows that the cloak increases his strength? sounds hypocritical.

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he stopped so he wouldnt throw his whole body into sasukes enton shield.

the function of Eis cloak was already described. it stimulates his nervous system to increase his speed.
"I must increase my speed to break his guard".
all of this supports the cloak increasing Eis speed and not his physical strength.

That can't be chalked up to artistic inconsistency since we have multiple scans of madara's tiny susanoo in that instance. Madara's ribcage took a number of attacks in between the two panels, as a result it just shrunk as it took more and more damage.


Even this doesn't hold up as evidence since Madara's ribcage was still

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and unlike Ei's liger bomb, tsunade and Ei's attack destroyed the susanoo madara was using.

So nope, all you've been able to produce so far are instances where people are up against a far larger EMS susanoo than an MS susanoo which of course isn't positive evidence for your assertion.


Size inconsistency isn't in anyway an argument, it could be the case that sasuke's skeletal susanoo was even SMALLER than what is depicted in the manga, and madara's ribcage susanoo was even LARGER than what was depicted in the manga, or the extremes of both are even greater. So nope.

It doesn't even matter if it was a skeletal susanoo or not, madara's susanoo that he used was incomparably smaller than skeletal susanoos we've seen from even

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So once again, your arguments are untennable since susanoo of various stages can radically vary in size.

@bold-nope. susano does not shrink from taking damage. sasukes susano did not shrink after getting hit by danzos fuuton.
sasukes susano did not shrink after Eis liger bomb. madaras susano did not shrink after Ei and onoki punched a hole in it., so the fact remains that any panels which show the ribcage big or small in one instance and the opposite in other following panels are chalked up to art inconsistency. sasuke and madaras ribcage can be compared regardless of how many straws you grasp.

Guess what? I did the translation myself and the scanlators were actually correct. The Japenese raw:

Spoiler

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Hashirama's statement in romanji: "Naruto no jutsu de taose wa shinakatta ga...."
The word in question here is "taose", "Naruto no jutsu" is "Naruto's jutsu" "taose wa shinakatta" is "didn't taose". The root word of "taose" is "taosu" and the definition of 'taosu' is :
1) to beat
2) to bring down
3) to throw down

source:

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If you need further proof, here's the kanji for 'taosu': 倒す you can copy and past it into google translate to confirm it and you can compare the kanji to the one in the raw to see if they match.

Therefore your source isn't the correct translation, mangapanda and ***********'s translations are correct. Hashirama said nothing about the jutsu destroying madara's body, he was only talking about defeating, beating or bringing down madara. So nope, the rasenshuriken most likely completely destroyed madara's body, it just couldn't beat him since it's not a fuuinjutsu.


Well, yeah you just have conceded this point since you've just made a bunch of assertions. You haven't given any reason to back up your claims that I'm being biased. Not only that, but I've shown why my interpretation of the manga is far more supported: by the evidence of the rasenshuriken's power and madara's durability. Therefore due to the overwhelming amount of evidence against madara being able to withstand the attack, hashirama's statement was most likely not literally true as is the case for tons of other statements in this manga.


If the bolded is true then it logically follows that madara didn't withtand SM Chou oodama rasenshuriken due to the arguments I've provided showing the gap between the power of that attack and a base chou oodama rasengan. Kaguya blocked naruto's punches with her arms and legs, madara couldn't have blocked chou oodama rasengan with his arms or legs, the attack was way too powerful which is why he was forced to up his level of power from base sharingan to the ems and bring out his absolute defense.


Yep so in light of the fact that your translation was incorrect and the original japanese raw said nothing about madara's body being destroyed only beaten, it seems you actually have to address that argument I've given.

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the kanji you mentioned does not match any of the kanji in the left middle panel where hashirama made his statement..
any kanji i can see that even resembles 倒す is on the next panel where hashirama talks about how he restrained madara.

so you still have absolutely no argument, though its not like you did in the first place since every single translation out there agrees with what im saying. you are misinterpreting it due to your dishonesty. lets use your translation though. this is entertaining.

hashirama stated that the rasenshuriken did not even bring down/knock down madara. that specific wording does state that madara was not destroyed. all of these translations mean the exact same thing because *hint* all of them are trying to say that narutos jutsu wasnt enough simply because it didnt have the strength to bring madara down or knock him down, whatever you prefer.

the next time you want to be a translator, translate the correct part of the text, ok?

Well then that's another concession on your part. Naruto's avatar is so much larger than Madara's susanoo that it could pick the susanoo up with just one hand. Using common body parts as reference, naruto's arms are multiple times the thickness and length of the susanoos arms. The scans you've brought up are totally irrelevant when we have a scan that shows both constructs in question in the same panel for verification.

So once again, this right here just proves that you'll stoop to any level of dishonesty in order to push your own personal agenda.

the proportions of madaras V3 susano are different to sasukes. even if it is much skinnier than kurama, it is just as tall if the tails arent taken into account.

So this is still you conceding the argument. I've given explict reasons why naruto was restricted, the only thing you've been able to say is "i wouldn't call that restricted" and "just because he didn't make one that was extra large doesn't mean that he was incapable of making one", the first completely ignores my argument which takes into account him using bijuudama and shows why despite that naruto is still restricted. The second isn't a positive argument, simply saying "it's possible" or "you can't prove it impossible" isn't a positive argument. SHOW naruto had that ability. In addition to that, the fact that sasuke was only able to match naruto when he didn't use his big guns shows sasuke's construct was not at naruto's level when he does use them.



So the bolded is you implicitly asserting that the susanoo arrows and bijuudama possess the same amount of raw power behind there attacks. Now where's your evidence for such a claim? If you have none, then your assertion is baseless and thus worthless, therefore a concession of that point on your part.

Sure there's panels proving sasuke's sword strikes are stronger, he easily cuts through multiple pillars with a single sword strike

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, his arrow can't even penetrate a man-sized pillar and

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the hachibi can survive a direct hit from its own bijudama but sasukes arrow would mutilate it.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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the arrow you showed first had to go through danzos body. the arrow doesnt lack power compared to the strikes.

So based on what would clones have been useles against ten tails obito?
If obito had to summon the shinjuu in order to stop naruto's charged bijuudama, how would he have stopped another one from naruto? The shinjuu was already out and it was busy fighting the entire cloaked alliance, what would obito have done? And based on what would he have been capable of doing it?

based on the fact that they cant use their own kurama avatar at this point, so they would be doing nothing other than sitting in the real kuramas body.
obito does not need the shinju to stop naruto from charging a bijudama. he just thought it was time to start infinite tsukiyomi.
obito could simply grab him with a molded truthseeker and there isnt any proof that a bigger bijudama from naruto alone wouldve destroyed obitos truthseekers.

Naruto tried to hit madara with the chakra stakes he threw. After madara used susanoo through the gunbai to block it, Naruto's obvious next decision would be to use an attack that would render that defense moot which is the bijuudama rasengan. If it couldn't destroy madara's defense, then charging in like that would have had no purpose madara would have blocked naruto's attack just like he blocked the rods.


So what? the bijuudama rasengan's power has never been tested via feats so a feat analysis would be disingenuous. The only possible way to analyze the power of it would be by hype or transitive feats, and giving it the transitive feats of KN4/KN6 bijuudama would easily put it above bijuudama tail slaps that don't even produce a crater in the ground.


This is

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the only reason it failed is because he didn't master the 8:2 chakra ratio at that time. Now that he has, he's capable of making one that big.

sasuke charged at madara with his sword despite already seeing madara use susano. does that mean that sasukes sword would have destroyed it? naruto attacked madara, because that is what you do in a fight. madara blocking the rods have no relation to naruto attacking madara. the very notion is nonsense just like the rest of your argument.


you want to scale naruto bijudama rasengan to a kn6 bijudama? it didnt produce dustruction comparable to what kn6 did so your argument simply has no substance.

You absolutely do have to give an explanation for what naruto did with the first rasenshuriken since your argument necessitates that Naruto and his rasenshuriken didn't even come into contact with the tails. Therefore your failure to do so is a flat out concession on your part as you've ignored my argument and have shown that the only way your arguments hold is if you ignore any and all parts of the manga that make them logically impossible.

Next, the right wing isn't aligned with the furthest tail, the beak is, that's why both tails get cut at the same time despite the one in the background being located

the right wing is aligned with the tail furthest in the back of the scan, but at this point its becoming my word vs yours and nobody can force you to make an honest argument.

i only have to prove that rasenshuriken did not touch the tails. i dont have to prove what naruto did with first one. ive done that therefore the burden of proof is no longer on me as i have already proven my point.

Your scans are false on multiple accounts.

1) In the first scan you provided there's a crater beneath the shinjuu, it just isn't emphasized as much as it is later on.
2) You can literally see

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We know the shinjuu roots don't extend beyond the largest crater, juubito didn't slam naruto into the ground yet, therefore they had to have been in the crater from the scan I've provided earlier.
3)

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4)

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that shows the shinjuu roots extending far beyond the crater that the SA are in.
5)

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proves that there are already two craters, and that the alliance are fighting in the smaller, inner one.
6)

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makes it logically impossible for your stance to hold true since the debri from juubito's slam doesn't even reach the edge of the crater meaning it the slam itself couldn't have possibly created that crater, yet we see the branches of the shinjuu extending beyond that crater thus indicating it was the inner crater.
7)

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also makes it impossible for your stance to hold true since the

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yet when the bottom up view from the crater is given we get an almost perfectly clear view of the sky when we the shinjuu should have been centered above the crater thus obstructing most of the view.
8) then there's the fact that your scan of the shinjuu showed the roots extending to the ground in the crater beneath it, yet there's absolutely no roots seen in the crater that obito's meteor impact made, making it impossible for that to be the case.
9) then there's the fact that we know the

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didn't extend so far seaward that it made contact with the ocean, yet a good portion of the outer crater is so big that it

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10) then there's the fact that we saw how big

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and how

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making it impossible for the shinjuu to have been contained in the PS/mokujin crater.
11) Next we know the crater in which PS and mokujin were fighting in is pretty much flat, there are no mountains or hills, yet in the scan you provided, we see

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we see the shinjuu roots extending over the same kind of terrain in

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making your stance impossible.
12) The inner crater wasn't created by tenpenchii, it was made from

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The entire alliance vs juubi fight took place in that crater, it's consistent with the size of the crater we've seen PS and mokujin fight in.

the hokages arrived after the juubi used tenpenchii so the crater that the fighting happened in was the tenpenchii crater. and there isnt 2 craters in the scan where obito put his barrier up. there is only one.
tenpenchii merely extended naruto and bees bijudama crater, it didnt create an entirely separate crater.

whats wrong with you? there are no forests or mountains inside the crater.

Spoiler

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this is why you are not worth my time. its because of your blatant dishonesty and ignorance in your posts. the black outline is the edge of the crater.


kishi draws the shinjus location inconsistently. PS and the mokujin were fighting inside the tenpenchii crater. regardless if the ocean is there or not, it is the tenpenchii crater.

this.

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is the exact same crater as this.

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but where is the ocean? the answer is kishi did not draw the shinjus location consistently. regardless of the shinju extending to the ocean in different panels, its the same crater.

obitos barrier was right in the center of the same crater. the only part of the shinju that wouldnt fit inside that barrier are its roots.

hashirama and madara simply moved their fight from the middle of the crater, to the edge.

Sure the mountains in the scan you've posted are the same size, but that's irrelevant. Show me the mountains that PS destroyed and show that those are the same size as those mountains.

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there are tons of tiny mountains in the foreground and close to the ocean, they are incomparably smaller and shorter than some of the other mountains in the same picture.

So no you're going to have to do an actual panel vs panel analysis of the mountains PS was cutting.

nope. you got proven wrong, now you are reaching.

all the mountains at VOTE are comparable to each other in size and i have proven that the mountain ranges shared by VOTE and the area where the shinju is are indeed comparable in size. PS chopping the mountains from VOTE means that it could easily chop the mountains that were around the shinju.
come on now, lets stop spouting nonsense.

If CT wasn't super durable, the KN6 bijuudama would have erased a mountain-sized portion of it, and then CT would have repaired the damage. That never happened,

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no crater no nothing in the CT. The rock that comprises CT isn't super durable, however CT compacts this rock making the entire construct super durable. That's why the crater that CT makes is

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That's also why it's a great strength feat for kurama to be able to tunnel out of CT. if it was just normal rock, even summons like manda would be able to do that.

the bijudama penetrated CT and exploded inside as shown. there isnt going to be that much visible damage on the outside.
rock is shown collecting and repairing the damage.
50% kurama resisting the gravitational pull of the chibaku tensei orb as well as digging through multiple mountains worth of rock is impressive. so what?

The bolded makes absolutely no sense and has absolutely no positive evidence pertaining to it in the manga. Even if for Sasuke's eyes did get stronger from the chakra, he and his jutsu are still being powered up by kurama's yin and yang chakra. Therefore his eyes level up, he gets to use this bijuu-sized susanoo and on top of that this bijuusized susanoo is powered up by kurama's yin+yang chakra and juugo's senjutsu. After both powerups leave him, sasuke still possesses the ability to use his higher level of susanoo, but it's far weaker due to losing his powerups.
So this is you conceding the post as you've ignored my argument about sasuke's and madara's susanoos being powered up by senjutsu chakra.
You've also ignored and thus conceded the V3 = BM argument on the grounds of you ignoring 5 v3 susanoos barely being able to get through gaara's auto defense while Sasuke's casually cuts through the shinjuu.

the V3 susano itself is the powerup. his eyes were empowered, so he leveled up his susano. sasukes susano did not have the chakra cloak, sasuke did.
you seem to have a hard time grasping something so simple. if sasukes eyes are empowered by naruto it simply means that he can level up his susano beyond its previous form. it doesnt mean that his susano is more powerful than it would usually be.

gaaras defense is more durable than the shinju considering that even the samurai and emna can destroy the branches.

Another thing I'd like you to answer is that if Sasuke's V3 wasn't powered up by the kyuubi's chakra, shouldn't Madara's V3 powered by hashirama's senjutsu be at least as powerful if not more? If so, why was madara's suanoo

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when his susanoo got hit by an incomparably weaker attack than

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due to the nature of the attack sasukes susano was destroyed and it ended there. after the biju tails broke susano, they hit madara. the bijus tails actually hit madara himself so your comparison is fallacious.

Yep, so the statements were hyperbole, and not taken to be literally true. Also, since 'cuts don't mean much' isn't in anyway some kind of argument this would be you conceding that 2 rasenshuriken take out sandaime as well as his body was damaged despite naruto saying the rasenshuriken had no effect.

nope no hyperbole. based on the purely cosmetic damage that the alliances and narutos attacks did, they came to the conclusion that their attacks had no effect on him.

So are you saying that all statements in the manga are literally true? Do you believe that itachi can't be defeated by anyone who doesn't possess a sharingan? Do you believe that kakashi's raikiri can cut through anything? That no one can stop a blade of wind? That all jutsu become meaningless in front of neji's byakugan? Because once again, those are things your arguments necessitate in order to be true. That's the only way your argument which implicitly asserts that if someone states something in the manga, then it's true regardless of how much evidence is against it. Do you believe that? If not, then there's nothing about author's intent or hashirama's statement that's being ignored, they just have to be interpreted differently since their literal interpretation is a vast outlier from all other pieces of data we have on madara's durability and rasenshuriken's power.

And you know that, which is why you continuously are forced to just dodge all of these absolutely absurd things that would be necessarily true in order for the things you're asserting to also be true by just ignoring them.

But anyways, the manga never said anything about madara's body being destroyed so now you literally don't have any grounds for denying my arguments.

there was no hyperbole in hashiramas statement. he was merely stating the obvious. you dont want to accept the statement because you dont like it. it doesnt have anything to do with the statement not being logical.

 

[Amaterasu]

Scenario 1: Naruto wins med diff

Naruto already had troubles fighting Masked Obito, Madara is stronger, but Naruto has many resources ! With the lot of Chakra he got in reserve, he could destroy 20 of them in one blow with Giant Rasen Rengans

Scenario 2: Naruto wins high-diff

I admit this is really hard with YM's, but as i said before Naruto is lot of resources and the susanoos are just weak clones, if Madara isn't involved, Naruto still wins, but that he would need to be tough !

Scenario 3: Madara low diff.

No comments about it. Madara was way level above, and with his presence into the fight, it just turns bad for Naruto

Scenario 4: Same than Scene 3 but neg-diff

Only way for Naruto to win is to turn into BM (if he do, he wins Super Negative diff)