[VS] Katakuri VS
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Punk Hazard
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This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what I'm doing. My post LITERALLY said
Meanwhile, these are the posts that I am contending:
All of these posts hinges on of two, if not both, concepts:
1. All of the Commanders in a crew are within the same ballbark so much so that the power of one reflects closely to the power of another because they share the same rank.
2. All of the Commanders of an Emperor are within the same ballpark so much so that the power of any one reflects closely to the power of any other because they share the same rank.
I am saying that because these are not the case, you can't go "Here's how strong this particular Emperor Commander is, this guy is just as strong/only weaker by a paper thin margin."
The only rank in the OP world that has been shown to be that close are Admirals and the Emperors themselves(you can throw in WSM and WSS in there as well). Everything below that so far has had extreme variety, to the point that it's not a cohesive power level to fall back on. ALL of what you write in the below section supports this:
Jozu was running TOWARDS DOFLAMINGO'S DIRECTION. He had full view of Doflamingo and his movements as he was moving. Jozu's massive strength and speed couldn't prevent the Parasite from latching onto him and ultimately immobilizing him. If Jozu was charging towards Doflamingo instead of Cracker, the exact same thing would have happened. It's not like Jozu was charging towards the North while Doflamingo was standing towards the South and he caught him from behind.
That's also not mentioning the fact that AFTER Jozu was caught in the Parasite, he didn't bust out of it. If Jozu COULD have, he would have, considering he's been a serious character for as much as we've seen him and his family and friends were dying around him
Still raw? Do you mean, still an amateur, or weakened? If it's the former, that doesn't matter. That's like saying pre-timeskip Luffy at Marineford wasn't really weaker than the Admirals because he was an amateur. That argument makes absolutely no sense.
Nope. The 3rd strongest Strawhat beating the 3rd strongest BM pirate does NOT mean that Luffy has to be close to Big Mom. Has it ever occurred to you that the captain of the crew can be overwhelmingly stronger than their subordinates? Whitebeard, in a weakened state, was able to damage to Akainu that made him cough up blood and stunned him. In the meantime, his immediate subordinates, while using Haki and while far healthier than Akainu, failed to do more than irritate him or stop him from charging forward.
There has been nothing to establish that Big Mom's subordinates are that close to her in strength that this conclusion would be the only logical one.
SEE?
This is so hypocritical. How can you say in one sentence that Big Mom's immediate subordinates HAVE to so close to her that defeating them means you have a good shot at challenging her, but also think that Luffy is comfortably over his immediate subordinates? How do you know that the gap between Big Mom and Katakuri isn't bigger than the gap between Luffy and Sanji?
Bounty?! Wanted posters are scouters from Dragon Ball Z now? Blackbeard, with a bounty of ZERO, beat Ace, a man with a bounty of 550,000,000. Teach beat a dude who's bounty was bigger than his by HALF a BILLION. Luffy's bounty was almost as big as Doflamingo's at THRILLER BARK, are we gonna say he was close to Doflamingo then? Law's bounty was bigger than Doflamingo's DURING the timeskip, he was ready to kill Doflamingo then, huh?
Please tell me how Luffy vs Cracker shows how Katakuri vs Cracker will go. I'm delighted to find out how Luffy's and Cracker's abilities tell us the abilities of Katakuri.
Should I add this to the others above? Gotta love how you say "Commanders aren't in the same bracket!" in the beginning of your post, and then put Commanders in the same bracket at the end.
Damn I'm late smh. But... what is this? Did the OP think this battle was fair? Lol
Sanji nearly got his leg snapped by Vergo but yet he's supposed to compete with a guy who logically should be stronger than his Captain... ok. If Katakuri is on par with Marco then nobody on WCI except BM is strong enough to beat him, that means Luffy isn't winning either. So therefore Sanji has no chance even if he has some power up we haven't seen.
Ichiji is featless and I seriously doubt he helps here, bet he isn't even stronger than Sanji.
Vinsmoke bros lose all scenarios.
Thought some of you guys were smarter than this, people actually think this man is going to be weaker than Sanji. BMs strongest commander? I can't even.
Sanji nearly got his leg snapped by Vergo but yet he's supposed to compete with a guy who logically should be stronger than his Captain... ok. If Katakuri is on par with Marco then nobody on WCI except BM is strong enough to beat him, that means Luffy isn't winning either. So therefore Sanji has no chance even if he has some power up we haven't seen.
Ichiji is featless and I seriously doubt he helps here, bet he isn't even stronger than Sanji.
Vinsmoke bros lose all scenarios.
Thought some of you guys were smarter than this, people actually think this man is going to be weaker than Sanji. BMs strongest commander? I can't even.
Lol idk man, I don't see Katakuri winning against Sanji + Ichiji in a 2v1..
@bold what makes you feel like that's 100% the case?
Idk who's stronger between Sanji and Ichiji yet, but if I entertain the idea that Ichiji is stronger than Sanji..
Then I can see them winning against Katakuri in a 2v1..
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Punk Hazard
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How are these the same post lmfaoooo
BOTH of these guys are featless. BOTH of these guys have no battle power hype. BOTH of these guys have no portrayal in the powerscale of the OP world.
The bold was confirmed?
Oh btw, here's one commander of the Whitebeard pirates
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Here's another commander, of the same rank
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It's almost as if one commander can be way stronger or weaker than another. Hmm
Venomous Cobra
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WB commanders dont have the same format as the BM commanders. Cant compare them, when cracker was first mentioned, the scope was limited to hes ¨one of the three commanders" while in WBs case the commanders each lead a division implying theyŕe more seperate. Katakuri as a commander is likely the strongest or the second strongest from BMs crew considering the fact that he was the latest to get confronted by the strawhats side(Capone).
The gab may be big considering the Urouge vs Snack fight result but they all have enough for us to assume that they comfortably beat Sanji with what he has currently shown.
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You must have skipped the word "if". But whatever this whole post makes you look ignorant as hell. Comparing Curiel to Marco who is clearly stronger and more relevant to suit your argument is pathetic.
Theres nothing suggesting that Katakuri isn't one of her strongest commander if not her strongest commander.
Your logic is flawed as hell and you know it, you think its a coincidence that out of the 3 commanders, Katakuri was the last to be revealed and has the highest bounty out of all of them? Katakuri is getting hyped right now meanwhile what the hell is Cracker doing right now? His ass is knocked the hell out still getting treatment. Meanwhile Smoothie is just around getting no hype or anything whatsoever. Its obvious what oda is trying to get us to understand.
Meanwhile your sitting hear acting like you don't know what context is.
Lmfao this actually reached 3 pages? Wow. I'm scratching my head, why people are entertaining Riker?
Just to put things in to perspective how retarded the notion of even considering this possibility, I'd be less surprised if we skip to Wano and see Zoro sitting ontop of Kaidou's corpse, than Sanji beating Katakuri.
Just to put things in to perspective how retarded the notion of even considering this possibility, I'd be less surprised if we skip to Wano and see Zoro sitting ontop of Kaidou's corpse, than Sanji beating Katakuri.
Regardless of whos stronger right now I imagine the gap is small. By the time this arc is over Sanji should surpass all his brothers if he hasn't already with some unseen power up we haven't seen yet or whatever.
If Katakuri is as strong as I think, 2 Sanji level fighters isn't going to cut it, I could be wrong though.
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This just leads more credence to what I'm saying. The concept of "Emperor commander" doesn't fall into a neat set of criteria. You can't say "Katakuri is an Emperor Commander, so he definitely can do at least XYZ" when we have commanders that have done less than that.
It's even worse when you start saying "Commanders aren't the same across the crews." If you want to say "Sanji isn't the on the level of Emperor commanders," then the concept of an Emperor's commander needs to be static across the board. You're just increasing how dynamic it is by saying "Commanders vary by crew."
It's like saying "This character isn't on the level of New World pirates." In some cases it might work, but the concept is simply too broad and dynamic to be used for a statement as static as that.
Now, if you want to say "Sanji isn't on the level of a Sweet Commander," then you need to establish that a Sweet Commander is static enough for that statement. You'd need proof from the manga that shows Big Mom's commanders all being within the same ballpark of strength with no outliers between them, which we haven't seen so far in the manga since only one of Big Mom's commanders has even gotten feats and portrayal.
The other two are Snack and Katakuri, and neither of them have been given portrayal within the powerscale like Cracker has, any feats like Cracker has, or hype.
The reason I bring up the Whitebeard pirates is to show that "They are commanders of an Emperor's crew, that automatically makes them on the same level with no outliers" isn't something you can say since we have examples of commanders not fitting this model. We need that to actually be demonstrated in the manga. This isn't to say that Oda will NEVER show that to be the case for the Sweet Commanders, I'm just saying he HASN'T demonstrated that in the manga thus far and it's inaccurate to say that he has. At this point, it's really no more than a gut feeling.
The "confronted last" argument doesn't work either. Luffy confronted Cracker before Big Mom, does that mean that Big Mom is automatically stronger? We have countless cases of a character being introduced before characters that are both part of the same group and weaker than them.
Again, what demonstrates that the Sweet Commanders follow a static spread, versus a dynamic spread with outliers?
Refute me then.
Hence the part of my post where I mention that both Katakuri and Ichiji have no feats, hype, or portrayal. These characters have fulfilled the same parameters in terms of combat(none), yet you include a hypothetical that Katakuri MIGHT be as strong as Marco, but Ichiji is DEFINITELY weaker by a large margin in all possible situations?
They have the same level of hype, feats, and portrayal, but Ichiji only has ONE possible level of strength while Katakuri is given a far larger window? That's literal bias.
There's nothing to suggest that Ichiji can't be the Marco level one while Katakuri is the weaker one. I'm not saying that that will be the case, mind you, I'm saying the manga hasn't of yet demonstrated that that WILL be the case. If there is, then I happily implore you to show it to me.
What? The point of my argument was the role of "Emperor commander"(not Sweet Commander) is very dynamic in its scope and has outliers.
The fact that you put Marco so above Curiel in your post is EXACTLY the point of mine: There is an extreme gap between two people of the same rank, so you can't use that as such a uniform criteria where you say "He's this rank, so he's automatically stronger."
I never said there was. The entire point of my posts here was that we haven't seen ANYTHING from Katakuri to make a distinction one way or another. He could be the weakest. He could be the strongest. He could be the strongest/weakest by a large margin. He could be the strongest/weakest by a small margin. All of these are still left open with what the manga has given us thus far, so NONE of us can post saying he's any of those and then say "I know this because the manga told us so."
I personally expect Katakuri to be stronger than Cracker, but not because the manga has told me so as many are claiming their posts here is derived from. What I'm challenging with my posts is that notion. It's nothing more than gut feelings from all of us, which makes discussing it very pointless.
I mean, going by this logic, Mihawk is the weakest Shichibukai because he was the first to be revealed. Shanks is also the weakest Emperor for this reason. Luffy is the weakest member of the Worst Generation.
Those things might make us EXPECT Katakuri to be the strongest of the commanders, but they come NOWHERE close to confirming that or being enough to use as proof in actual debates/fights since we have many instances of someone being introduced before a character they're stronger than while being part of the same organization.
It's like saying Bonney is confirmed Big Mom's daughter because of the lipstick and her gluttony. These things might act as HINTS, but they're not confirmations or demonstrations that can be used to say "Oh yeah, that's definitely happening for sure."
The bolded is extremely ironic.
The only hype Katakuri has gotten AT ALL is that his ability to see into the future makes him the biggest threat to the plan. Note that this means he's a bigger threat than Big Mom herself. Does that mean that Katakuri is stronger than Big Mom? It's the same hype that you're saying makes him stronger than Smoothie and Cracker after all.
The context of the only hype Katakuri has gotten so far, is that he puts a technical wrench in Bege's plan. Not because of his combat power, but because of TECHNICAL-based relation to a scenario. The context that Bege fears Katakuri in is one where strength doesn't actually matter. Katakuri could be as weak as Usopp and STILL be the biggest threat to the plan because he doesn't need to be the strongest Commander to be able to warn Big Mom that she's gonna be assassinated.
We know how powerful katakuri is. Look at the bounty, It is NOT irrelevant. A bounty greater than jacks can only mean one thing. It is clear that a person can't be more cruel than jack so his higher bounty isn't a reflection of his personality. It's a reflection of the threat he poses he government I.e. His strength.
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Bounty is not a reflection of cruelty, but threat to the world government. You can be more cruel than someone and have a lower bounty. Doflamingo is the cruelest character we have seen in the manga thus far. Luffy had a higher bounty than him during the timeskip. World Government ignorance and actual frequency in your threats to common safety also factor in. Do you know that Katakuri hasn't been more active than Jack? Do you know that the World Government isn't ignorant so exploits from Jack that would make his bounty higher? Do you know that Katakuri hasn't destroyed more countries?
Bounties are just like saying "He's a commander for a Yonko." There's too much shakiness involved to take it seriously, which becomes even more clear with all the questions asked. Bounties have not, and never have been, a power level.
Punk Hazard
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When you've never demonstrated understanding of the manga/debating skills beyond subpar or basic levels, but criticize others for it while riding on others' arguments. Like I said Mr. "I don't need feats to back up my arguments," refute me if that's the case. Show me that:
1. The Sweet Commanders follow a static, uniform spread of power
2. Katakuri is at the top of this spread
For a fact.
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Right, because every commander has been in the same strength level as the other, and every person has a higher bounty than the person he's stronger than. No character has been weaker with a bigger bounty, ever.
Funnily enough, the hype in this thread for Katakuri is the same hype people had for Cracker when he fought Gear 4 Luffy.
Venomous Cobra
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You take this case by case, oda has been inconsistent enough by now for you to really act like itś either all that or nothing". Commanders that are put within the same scope and level by others are more than likely closer in power than independent division leaders. You yourself put all emropers close to each other in the power ladder yet you punch in exceptions like WSS who clearly don fit through the regular way of powerscaling. Cracker had no potrayal aside from being one of the top 3 fighters of big mom before Luffy so that really depended on how you saw it, I for one did not anticipate commanders to be powerful enough where the first who got an intro was able to overpower Luffy. I can similairly say all yonko have different standings in terms of power since theyre are featless, I could easily make the arguement that kaido is stronger than big mom by at least a whole tier due to his title.
Now are yonko not in the same power level?
Doffy became a shichibukai... bad example and you know it. We have good evidence how active jack is and how cruel he is. You can't get much worse than jack. So if someone has a higher bounty than jack, they must be stronger.
And actually they have been and always will be power levels. Remember when luffy first met Bellamy and they didn't take him seriously because of his 30 mil bounty. Then later after Bellamy was beat they damn near died of shock when they dicovered his actual bounty of 100 mil. Yeah case in point. Oda has always used it as a rough gauge of strength. You think oda didn't know what he was doing when he made the bounties. It was clearly his intention. You act like oda whimsically gave katakuri a higher bounty than jack. Lol no, it was intentional. There is a clear correlation between strength and bounty.
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