Kakuzu vs Kisame (with Samehada)

[Fodder#4]

I have done a scale on Kakuzu's jutsu's on an old thread long ago. If I were to review them, it is safe to say they are on par.

It's a bit odd that we agree on several things... But oh well! As for comparing Kakuzu's and Kisame's jutsu, could you restate this or link me to the thread? Because I am very doubtful that Kakuzu has anything on the same level as Kisame. Look at what he is capable of doing here, look carefully in the

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. You'll see the small dot that is Kisame.

That's one example of his massive water based jutsu. Kisame casually creates

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if of his chakra. Again, I'd prefer it if you could link me to this thread because I do not see how Kakuzu can compare.

Bottom panel, Shikmaru's dad tells them to watch out for his earth techs (with the emphasis on the "s")

I see that, but again. . I do not see any jutsu being used. While there is evidence of him using more earth style jutsu, presumably offensive jutsu. What are they? You can't really say Kakuzu can counter act some of Kisame's water based jutsu with unknown Earth styled jutsu.

Samehada also had trouble consuming Itachi's Katon as a whole. Thats why I brought this up. His taste preference makes a difference too. Since it was unable to consume all of a ninjutsu at once my argument would be something like "the same of Kakuzu's scale of his attacks" would also apply.

While that is somewhat of a valid point, the only issue Samehada has seems to be with fire techniques. Samehada had no trouble absorbing Bee's lightning based attacks or Bijuu cloak. While I can agree that it will grow and absorb more based on how much it likes the chakra, I'd still consider the fact that Samehada eating away at what is a considerable amount of chakra, from Naruto, valid.

Samehada showed no signs of changing after that. And, even with the fire styled technique Samehada absorbed a

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of it. It only received a nasty burn from the fire as a result.

So, while there is favoritism for Samehada, strong and bountiful chakra, it has shown that it only truly dislikes Fire based techniques but still takes a sizable chunk out of them. Samehada should be taking a nice amount of Kakuzu's chakra, if contact is made.

Unfortuntally, as I brought up earlier, Samehada consumes things by his taste performance. We can't assume "because his absorbs alot of bees chakra anyone with less chakra is screwed". Lets look at Kisames preference when he fought the 4 tails. If he said he had trouble would it, wouldn't it seem to be easier with one swipe that took out Bee chakra by alot, and bee has more tails/chakra then from 4 tails?

And, trouble means that Roshi put up a fight against Kisame. As we've learned, only a few shinobi have managed to take control over their bijuu and use it in battle effectively. Roshi was not one of them. It's most likely that Roshi used his own chakra and his own jutsu move list to give Kisame a hard time. And I'm fairly certain we didnt see the battle to begin with, we only saw a fairly good looking Kisame holding an unconscious Roshi on Samehada.

Again, the chances of Roshi having used bijuu chakra to the extent of Killer Bee is impossible. And he infact only said there was trouble because Roshi used

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.

No where does he credit a bijuu giving him a hard time, and Samehada is still at normal size. We can pretty much assume that Bijuu chakra wasn't used in the battle.

Theres no denying that he will absorb Kakuzu chakra but cant compare how much due to Sameahada's personal taste.

We can assume it will be a good deal, as Samehada has effortlessly absorbed Lightning based chakra and the remains of Killer Bee's NON-bijuu chakra.

I don't see how Kisame can absorb Jingou as of him absorbing Wood Release. You made a good scenario further on your point but there are also scenarios on Kakuzu behalf.

Er, where did wood release come into this? And, why couldn't he? If chakra is present, either Great Shark Bomb or Samehada will be able to absorb it once contact is made or once it comes into the range of Samehada. The chakra being used will be devoured.

The great thing about dying and reviving is to learn from your mistakes of your opponents arsenal. You can learn their tactics and knowledge on what they are capable of. With Kakuzu's intelligence, who which has higher then Kisame, he will be able to counter and predict Kisames next move. Thats why I would give Kakuzu over Kisame by a tiny bit

And, you doubt Kisame too much. He was able to analyze Killer Bee's attacks while a lightning enhanced pencil was thrown at him, blocking a sword swing AND Killer Bee with a V1 cloak was running around to finish him.

Kisame realized what was going on and acted on it rather quickly. He isn't dumb and is actually a very perceptive shinobi. The extra lives WOULD help Kakuzu, but I don't think Kisame will give him a break long enough for him to make up a new plan from scratch/

 

[Zexion~]

Hmm... I'm actually looking forward to a good debate if someone presents one. I see Kisame winning more times then not.



You used to think Kakuzu takes it 6/10 times. What changed your mind?

Chakra Absorption :/ Realized how Op It was .. and the fact that It would take Kakuzu's EGF to Fatally damage Kisame... Although my mind is starting too switch again

 

[Brother Numpsay]

It's a bit odd that we agree on several things... But oh well! As for comparing Kakuzu's and Kisame's jutsu, could you restate this or link me to the thread? Because I am very doubtful that Kakuzu has anything on the same level as Kisame. Look at what he is capable of doing here, look carefully in the

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. You'll see the small dot that is Kisame.

It was a vs thread (Kakuzu vs Mei) some were claiming that Mei scale is beyond Kakuzu. So I made the comparison. Bascially due to location in Kakuzu's fight we can scale/AoE Kakuzu is able to do. Here I will quote myself.

Spoiler

To those who are saying that Kakuzu jutsu size is not comparable to Mei:

First, here is the size of humans to give you reference

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Notice how small the human is to the trees,




And now look at the size of the jutsu compared to those same trees that dwarf the humans

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Wind

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Fire

NOW, lets compare that to Madara's body and Mei's Suiton:

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Madara's body size

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Madara's Katon that Mei counter size

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Mei's Water Dragon size compare to human.

Edit: (Extra scans of Kakuzu's size with Fire+Wind Combo)

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Is this cleared up?

That's one example of his massive water based jutsu. Kisame casually creates

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if of his chakra. Again, I'd prefer it if you could link me to this thread because I do not see how Kakuzu can compare.

I post it above also when you see the start of the blast from Kakuzu elements they also look tiny. So yea due to the consistent look from the trees from the given location I conclude that Kakuzu's scale is on par with Kisame.

I see that, but again. . I do not see any jutsu being used. While there is evidence of him using more earth style jutsu, presumably offensive jutsu. What are they? You can't really say Kakuzu can counter act some of Kisame's water based jutsu with unknown Earth styled jutsu.

Sorry I was just pointing your question that is "that the only earth jutsu he uses?" question. I was just pointing out that the manga does not apply that. But you are right you can ignore this part because it wasn't my point to use this "unknown earth style" for argument.

While that is somewhat of a valid point, the only issue Samehada has seems to be with fire techniques. Samehada had no trouble absorbing Bee's lightning based attacks or Bijuu cloak. While I can agree that it will grow and absorb more based on how much it likes the chakra, I'd still consider the fact that Samehada eating away at what is a considerable amount of chakra, from Naruto, valid.

I honestly dont think Samehada would have any, including fire, trouble with absorbing any ninjutsu. The only problem I see how much mass he can. If Killer Bee would of thrown a fire pencil instead of lightening. Im pretty sure that would be easier to absorb without complaining. What counts is how much he is consuming at the same time. With Kakuzu scale of attacks I dont see him completely cutting though/absorbing all at once.

Samehada showed no signs of changing after that. And, even with the fire styled technique Samehada absorbed a

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of it. It only received a nasty burn from the fire as a result.

I didn't see him get burn next page I just see him hitting Killer Bee/complaining. But your right about that overall

So, while there is favoritism for Samehada, strong and bountiful chakra, it has shown that it only truly dislikes Fire based techniques but still takes a sizable chunk out of them. Samehada should be taking a nice amount of Kakuzu's chakra, if contact is made.

Same as above.

And, trouble means that Roshi put up a fight against Kisame. As we've learned, only a few shinobi have managed to take control over their bijuu and use it in battle effectively. Roshi was not one of them. It's most likely that Roshi used his own chakra and his own jutsu move list to give Kisame a hard time. And I'm fairly certain we didnt see the battle to begin with, we only saw a fairly good looking Kisame holding an unconscious Roshi on Samehada. Again, the chances of Roshi having used bijuu chakra to the extent of Killer Bee is impossible. And he infact only said there was trouble because Roshi used

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.

He actually mentions manga style he uses, then implies to Itachi that, in general, since you didn't fight him you would of known how touch he was.

No where does he credit a bijuu giving him a hard time, and Samehada is still at normal size. We can pretty much assume that Bijuu chakra wasn't used in the battle.

Right he credit the jinkiri using the his buiju's ninjutsu release. In order to use manga release he has to tap into yonbi. Samehada only seem to grow for loving Bee's chakra so much I don't think he had to imply for everything he absorbs.

We can assume it will be a good deal, as Samehada has effortlessly absorbed Lightning based chakra and the remains of Killer Bee's NON-bijuu chakra.

My point is Samehada cannot absorb a full scale blast all at once.

Er, where did wood release come into this? And, why couldn't he? If chakra is present, either Great Shark Bomb or Samehada will be able to absorb it once contact is made or once it comes into the range of Samehada. The chakra being used will be devoured.

Wood Release was said that it converts charka into life. I had a discussion with someone weeks ago and convince me with proof that it is true. I imply that it should be the same with Jingou since Jingou is his living structure.

And, you doubt Kisame too much. He was able to analyze Killer Bee's attacks while a lightning enhanced pencil was thrown at him, blocking a sword swing AND Killer Bee with a V1 cloak was running around to finish him.

Me claiming Kisame chances are 49% of winning is that too doubtful at all

Kisame realized what was going on and acted on it rather quickly. He isn't dumb and is actually a very perceptive shinobi. The extra lives WOULD help Kakuzu, but I don't think Kisame will give him a break long enough for him to make up a new plan from scratch/

I believe you and I agree but I also think that it isnt a simply task to destroy the heart either.

 

[Fanta]

Kisame wins.

 

[blackstar9]

who said his water shark bomb only absorbs . If i remeber correctly it absorbs but only to make the shark bomb stronger . It doesnt only absorb

 

[ToshiZO]

Kakuzu doesnt have a counter for daikodan....otherwise this is a pretty close match. If I had to say whos stronger geberally id probably say Kakuzu though but Kisame feeds off of ninjutsu based opponents...im pretty sure Daikodan would feed off of Domu....but his regualr water based sharks<<<<<<<<<Domu its not even close. Kisame takes this...too much chakra for him to feed off of and Daikodan is the game changer, otherwise his other water based attacks dont et by Domu and Kakuzu has ways to counter Kisames attacks...such as raiton..and fire based attacks.

 

[blackstar9]

If kakuzu gets caught in the water bubble its over .

 

[sharingan67]

Hand to hand, I have to put Kakuzu's strength on par with Tsunade and A, and just above Kisame (punching Guy down....maybe 50 feet of water. Kakuzu punched down a metal gate to a temple. I only put Naruto's strength above him. Kakuzu should be faster than Kisame, and with better martial Arts and at least as good Analytical ability. Most likely better.

Samehad can't abosrb any chakra.If i remember it only aboserbed regular chakra, bijuu chakra and raiton chakra.katon is one if Samehada's weakness.


all kakazu has to do is keep his distance and use combo jutsus on him

Not only katon zukkoku > samehada, but katon zukkoku + wind = stronger fire water + lightning = stronger lightning
Kisame cant tank all that (fusioned combo)

doton domu> any suiton jutsu from kisame.
water dome is useless since the heart can move and attack from all sides.

water will never kill somoene as strong as diamond.

Kakuzu has been choosen to kill Hashirama the senju who has mokuton and by far better jutsu and defense than what kisame has, and Kakuzu didn't die.

Doton domu (it's said to be as strong as diamond) > Giant Shark bullet

The only chance or Kisame is if Kakuzu try yo counter the giant shark bullet with a fusioned raiton giant instead of tank it easily with doton domu or just dodge it. Since the giant shark bullet would absorb and counter doton domu since it will absorb Kakuzu's lighting chakra which is the only weakness of doton domu so very few chance for Kisame to win.

Kakuzu >>> Kisame

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Chakra Absorption :/ Realized how Op It was .. and the fact that It would take Kakuzu's EGF to Fatally damage Kisame... Although my mind is starting too switch again

And why is that?

Do you understand how hard it is to kill Kisame? In order to permanently put him down, one must overcome three things.

1. Chakra Absorption
   
   While wielding Samehada, any ninjutsu used against Kisame will either be rendered useless or at the very least, weakened. If the scale of the jutsu is too large thus containing too much chakra for Samehada to fully absorb in a single go (in this case) then Samehada only needs to absorb as much as he possibly can which will debilitate the attack and/or split it in half.
   
   
2. Durability
   
   (Taken out of my upcoming thread)
   A very overlooked fact while discussing Kisame is his durability feats. Kisame tanked Hirudora, a technique said to be a
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   . Kisame also took a V2 skull Bee Lariat [
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   ]-[
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   ] and was still fully conscious and able to talk. Sasuke on the other hand, got a hit by a V1 Chakra Cloak Bee Lariat [
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   ] and it left him nearly dead [
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   ]. Furthermore, Kisame says [
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   ] "Even I would end up with a hole in me" Which implies he's durable then most characters.
   
   
3. Regeneration
   
   Lastly, his healing capabilities. Granted by Samehada, Kisame was able to withstand a life threatening injury, and completely heal from it like it was nothing. The whole regeneration process didn't even require a lot of chakra either. While comparing the size of Samehada to Kisame [
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   ] prior to the cellular regeneration, it didn't become any smaller after [
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   ] the regeneration process.
   
   

Hence why the only way Kishi could get rid of him was to make him commit suicide.

Spoiler

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And I didn't even get into the offensive, which Kakuzu doesn't have counters for.

 

[blackstar9]

And why is that?

Do you understand how hard it is to kill Kisame? In order to permanently put him down, one must overcome three things.

1. Chakra Absorption
   
   While wielding Samehada, any ninjutsu used against Kisame will either be rendered useless or at the very least, weakened. If the scale of the jutsu is too large thus containing too much chakra for Samehada to fully absorb in a single go (in this case) then Samehada only needs to absorb as much as he possibly can which will debilitate the attack and/or split it in half.
   
   
2. Durability
   
   (Taken out of my upcoming thread)
   A very overlooked fact while discussing Kisame is his durability feats. Kisame tanked Hirudora, a technique said to be a
   You must be registered for see links
   . Kisame also took a V2 skull Bee Lariat [
   You must be registered for see links
   ]-[
   You must be registered for see links
   ] and was still fully conscious and able to talk. Sasuke on the other hand, got a hit by a V1 Chakra Cloak Bee Lariat [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] and it left him nearly dead [
   You must be registered for see links
   ]. Furthermore, Kisame says [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] "Even I would end up with a hole in me" Which implies he's durable then most characters.
   
   
3. Regeneration
   
   Lastly, his healing capabilities. Granted by Samehada, Kisame was able to withstand a life threatening injury, and completely heal from it like it was nothing. The whole regeneration process didn't even require a lot of chakra either. While comparing the size of Samehada to Kisame [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] prior to the cellular regeneration, it didn't become any smaller after [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] the regeneration process.
   
   

Hence why the only way Kishi could get rid of him was to make him commit suicide.

Spoiler

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And I didn't even get into the offensive, which Kakuzu doesn't have counters for.

good points

 

[SASUKE IS ABOVE KAGE LEVE]

Kisame waterdomes him & fuses with sameda for speed advantage

 

[Zexion~]

And why is that?

Do you understand how hard it is to kill Kisame? In order to permanently put him down, one must overcome three things.

1. Chakra Absorption
   
   While wielding Samehada, any ninjutsu used against Kisame will either be rendered useless or at the very least, weakened. If the scale of the jutsu is too large thus containing too much chakra for Samehada to fully absorb in a single go (in this case) then Samehada only needs to absorb as much as he possibly can which will debilitate the attack and/or split it in half.
   
   
2. Durability
   
   (Taken out of my upcoming thread)
   A very overlooked fact while discussing Kisame is his durability feats. Kisame tanked Hirudora, a technique said to be a
   You must be registered for see links
   . Kisame also took a V2 skull Bee Lariat [
   You must be registered for see links
   ]-[
   You must be registered for see links
   ] and was still fully conscious and able to talk. Sasuke on the other hand, got a hit by a V1 Chakra Cloak Bee Lariat [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] and it left him nearly dead [
   You must be registered for see links
   ]. Furthermore, Kisame says [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] "Even I would end up with a hole in me" Which implies he's durable then most characters.
   
   
3. Regeneration
   
   Lastly, his healing capabilities. Granted by Samehada, Kisame was able to withstand a life threatening injury, and completely heal from it like it was nothing. The whole regeneration process didn't even require a lot of chakra either. While comparing the size of Samehada to Kisame [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] prior to the cellular regeneration, it didn't become any smaller after [
   You must be registered for see links
   ] the regeneration process.
   
   

Hence why the only way Kishi could get rid of him was to make him commit suicide.

Spoiler

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And I didn't even get into the offensive, which Kakuzu doesn't have counters for.

Do you realize how hard it is too kill kakuzu? lol

First the obvious he has five hearts and you must deal a fatal blow too those hearts, 5 times ... Kisame really is not known for pin-point accuracy attacks , because you must hit the mask .. hitting anything else on the Hearts does nothing , hence why it took 7 shinobi .. only for him to be getting trolled by Kishi ( they both were in a sense),

Now on too the lesser-known, Not only do you have to kill him five times but to take out the heart Kakuzu has inside himself, you will have to use a jutsu directed straight at the heat, Now Does Kisame have any jutsu that would specialize in taking out the heart

Spoiler

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As you can see his body structure makes it so that he is basically impervious to attacks that are not directed at the heart .. Such as Hidan's Curse Jutsu and Kakashi's lightning blade, Kisame on the other hand has nothing that would hit the heart in a way that would take him down..

And GSB may not even affect Kakuzu when he is in domu because Earth>Water .. Meaning the water may just simply dissolve .. Or on the other hand it could absorb the Earth but once again its not a pin-point attack so it may send him reeling but it would not kill him, Or as another counter Kakuzu's threads can pierce right through the GSB Aimed right at Kisame

Spoiler

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This caliber of threads is more then enoguh to force kisame to stop the GSB, if not pierce him, or pin him down, whereas Kakuzu could then remove his heart .. Which is doubtful he could heal from ... And Kakuzu's Combination Jutsu Is more then enough to evaporate his offensive Shark Jutsu, the terrain changers but look at his wind jutsu,

Spoiler

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As you can tell its in a dome shape so if Kisame were to use GWD, This wind jutsu may just be able to Blow the water out of its Dome shape .. However It depends on how strong a hold Kisame has on the water .. now im not saying it blows the whole of the water dome but it could do enough damage structurally that it would either

A.Fall apart as it loses its structural balance
B. Provide a big enough gap for kakuzu to escape ..

( The wind jutsu would not hurt a Kakuzu in Domu) So he tanks his wind jutsu and then retreats out of the dome ..

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Do you realize how hard it is too kill kakuzu? lol

First the obvious he has five hearts and you must deal a fatal blow too those hearts, 5 times ... Kisame really is not known for pin-point accuracy attacks , because you must hit the mask .. hitting anything else on the Hearts does nothing , hence why it took 7 shinobi .. only for him to be getting trolled by Kishi ( they both were in a sense),

Now on too the lesser-known, Not only do you have to kill him five times but to take out the heart Kakuzu has inside himself, you will have to use a jutsu directed straight at the heat, Now Does Kisame have any jutsu that would specialize in taking out the heart

Spoiler

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As you can see his body structure makes it so that he is basically impervious to attacks that are not directed at the heart .. Such as Hidan's Curse Jutsu and Kakashi's lightning blade, Kisame on the other hand has nothing that would hit the heart in a way that would take him down..

...But he was one-shotted though :|

Nonetheless, everything thing you stated above is true... for the most part. But you're forgetting a single important aspect while fighting Kisame. He has more then one means of killing his opponent.

That being;

1. The normal way (Which what you're post only consisted of)
2. Chakra Depletion (No chakra = Death)
3. Drowning (No oxygen = Death)

Kisame doesn't need to go about dealing with Kakuzu by pinpointing his attacks at the heart. He can simply drain all his chakra and outlast him, or cut his oxygen supply thus stopping his hearts from functioning.

Also, those hearts don't seem very durable. TenTen and who knows who else were able to take them all down.

And GSB may not even affect Kakuzu when he is in domu because Earth>Water .. Meaning the water may just simply dissolve .. Or on the other hand it could absorb the Earth but once again its not a pin-point attack so it may send him reeling but it would not kill him, Or as another counter Kakuzu's threads can pierce right through the GSB Aimed right at Kisame

Spoiler

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This caliber of threads is more then enoguh to force kisame to stop the GSB, if not pierce him, or pin him down, whereas Kakuzu could then remove his heart .. Which is doubtful he could heal from ... And Kakuzu's Combination Jutsu Is more then enough to evaporate his offensive Shark Jutsu, the terrain changers but look at his wind jutsu,

Spoiler

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As you can tell its in a dome shape so if Kisame were to use GWD, This wind jutsu may just be able to Blow the water out of its Dome shape .. However It depends on how strong a hold Kisame has on the water .. now im not saying it blows the whole of the water dome but it could do enough damage structurally that it would either

A.Fall apart as it loses its structural balance
B. Provide a big enough gap for kakuzu to escape ..

( The wind jutsu would not hurt a Kakuzu in Domu) So he tanks his wind jutsu and then retreats out of the dome ..

Earth>Water, yes. However, your forgetting GSB>Ninjutsu. So, no.... GSB will absorb domu and Kakuzu will take the damage dealt by GSB. How is the threads going through GSB a counter? Kakuzu still gets hit... And it seems to me that this whole scenario you created is on the ground, which doesn't make much sense considering Kisames fighting style which is to gain terrain advantage.

Creating a giant lake allows Kisame to attack with a combination assault coming from below the surface and above. Kisame can use 5 hungry sharks with both hands, thus making 10 shark bombs to attack Kakuzu below the surface, Kakuzu's only counter would be Domo, which allows Kisame to attack him above the surface and knock him into the water [

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] Since Kakuzu won't be able to move. From there on, Kakuzu can easily be overwhelmed with the sheer number of sharks Kisame is able to produce, seeing that it only took 3 Kage Bunshins to create an opening for Naruto.

Spoiler

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I agree with you that Kakuzus Wind Blast might break the WD. It really all depends on the size and whether Kisame would be able to hold it together. The smaller the WD, the better chance Kakuzu has of breaking it. But you seem to rely on Domo too much. GSB, Samehada, or Kisame fused with Samehada easily strip that away from Kakuzu.

Also, wouldn't the masks that are incapable of flying drown? I highly doubt they are sophisticated enough to channel chakra in there feet in order to stand on water. This limits Kakuzu to amount masks he can use. Not that I see them as a threat, as Kisame can counter each of them, but it only quickens the outcome of the fight.