Kakuzu vs. Itachi

[Zexion~]

What are you talking about? Do you even know what the chakra network is and how it works? The chakra network runs throughout the entire body. Hearts having chakra tubes=/=Hearts having chakra networks. Switching hearts causing the ENTIRE FLOW THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE BODY to stop is based on literally nothing. So you have no argument here. Just give it up.

Here is a picture of the chakra network so you don't reply with some BS. :lol

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Bruh what are you saying? Why do you think the mask creatures are so large, because they need to house an entire chakra network and yes it would stop and flow through an entirely new one...Kakuzu probably has a very unique chakra network btw that much should be obvious...

When the heart returns, for the secondary chakra network to initiate Kakuzu's own chakra has to flow through it first. That cannot happen when he's incapacitated with genjutsu. It doesn't matter if the new heart carrying the new nature comes through as the functioning still relies on Kakuzu himself who cannot pump chakra throughout his entire body.

So how did it rejuvenate Kakuzu when he was dead? If it requires Kakuzu's direct input of chakra to become the main heart it wouldn't be possible. The heart literally returns and PHYSICALLY takes the place of the previous heart, not to mention alot of Itachi's genjutsu still allow Kakuzu to be aware that he is in a genjutsu, the only ones that don't are the quick ones utilized as attack diversions. Those aren't any threat to Kakuzu's well-being anyways they only prolong the inevitable.


Again how does 3t Itachi take Kakuzu down here? What genjutsu is going to be used? Stakes? One Finger?.....

 

[KidGamer65]

Bruh what are you saying? Why do you think the mask creatures are so large, because they need to house an entire chakra network and yes it would stop and flow through an entirely new one...Kakuzu probably has a very unique chakra network btw that much should be obvious...

It's painfully obvious your bias for Kakuzu is clouding your judgement as usual.

Facts:

-This is the chakra pathway network.

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-The masks are threads with hearts. Period.

-Heats contain chakra tubes as Kakashi stated. Not chakra NETWORKS.

-Hearts can only manipulate Ninjutsu on their own because Kakuzu uses hand signs to do so as shown in the Manga.

-Kakuzu switching out hearts switches the chakra tubes located in the heart. Not his whole chakra network. :lol



Opinions with no evidence backing them:

Everything in your post. Literally everything. "why do you think the mask creatures are so large? because they need to house a chakra network". You pulled this straight out of your ass man. :lol Cut this nonsense out.

 

[KCN]

Bruh what are you saying? Why do you think the mask creatures are so large, because they need to house an entire chakra network and yes it would stop and flow through an entirely new one...Kakuzu probably has a very unique chakra network btw that much should be obvious...



So how did it rejuvenate Kakuzu when he was dead? If it requires Kakuzu's direct input of chakra to become the main heart it wouldn't be possible. The heart literally returns and PHYSICALLY takes the place of the previous heart, not to mention alot of Itachi's genjutsu still allow Kakuzu to be aware that he is in a genjutsu, the only ones that don't are the quick ones utilized as attack diversions. Those aren't any threat to Kakuzu's well-being anyways they only prolong the inevitable.


Again how does 3t Itachi take Kakuzu down here? What genjutsu is going to be used? Stakes? One Finger?.....

The bold isn't what I'm arguing. It's irrelevant to our discussion.

Because the heart is already beating and existing. It's as simple as that, otherwise they wouldn't be able to function as standalone beings. Kakuzu was stated to defy the law of physics and his Jiongu was already stated to be lifelike regardless of chakra input [

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], which is why they can return to Kakuzu and revive him. This is irrelevant to answering my question on how it disrupts the ENTIRE chakra flow and establish it's new chakra connection without Kakuzu's influence. As they're already existing and beating, they just replace Kakuzu's old heart. It's really not that hard to grasp my dude, but he doesn't get a new network.

 

[Zexion~]

It's painfully obvious your bias for Kakuzu is clouding your judgement as usual.

Facts:

-This is the chakra pathway network.

You must be registered for see images

-The masks are threads with hearts. Period.

-Heats contain chakra tubes as Kakashi stated. Not chakra NETWORKS.

-Hearts can only manipulate Ninjutsu on their own because Kakuzu uses hand signs to do so as shown in the Manga.

-Kakuzu switching out hearts switches the chakra tubes located in the heart. Not his whole chakra network. :lol


Opinions with no evidence backing them:

Everything in your post. Literally everything. "why do you think the mask creatures are so large? because they need to house a chakra network". You pulled this straight out of your ass man. :lol Cut this nonsense out.

I JUST POSTED THE SCAN OF HIM SAYING CHAKRA NETWORK?!? That was the Viz scan as well lol.

-They are threads with hearts that come with SOMETHING (at least) that Kakuzu pushes chakra through to gather the element.

-

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No hand-signs, although I don't see how that is relevant as I already know Kakuzu is the one who has to push the chakra through the hearts to use the jutsu.

-Either way the chakra has to stop flowing through one tube and start flowing through another, it can't just continuously flow while he's changing the tubes as there is a period of time where it would be flowing through nothing...which is impossible.


You're also making assumptions so don't even start that.

Because the heart is already beating and existing. It's as simple as that, otherwise they wouldn't be able to function as standalone beings. Kakuzu was stated to defy the law of physics and his Jiongu was already stated to be lifelike regardless of chakra input [

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], which is why they can return to Kakuzu and revive him. This is irrelevant to answering my question on how it disrupts the ENTIRE chakra flow and establish it's new chakra connection without Kakuzu's influence. As they're already existing and beating, they just replace Kakuzu's old heart. It's really not that hard to grasp my dude, but he doesn't get a new network.

I know everything you just said but what YOU are saying doesn't make sense, when a new heart becomes the one his body is using the chakra is now going to be flowing through something new, whether it be tubes or an entire network (like the scan I posted said) it doesn't really matter it still has to stop doing this, the heart returning to Kakuzu's body is going to physically change the hearts either way, which means the chakra flow will stop (he may even die here) and then it would begin flowing through the new heart.

Chakra isn't really even needed here as it just needs to move the other heart out of the way at this point :lol literally the only thing you can argue is if the heart will do this on its own when Kakuzu is caught under a genjutsu as either way its interrupting something when it returns to the body and becomes the main heart.


Also if Kakuzu is aware he's in a genjutsu than all this becomes irrelevant and he breaks it with ease.

 

[Edogawa]

Where do I begin...? I'll start on portrayal. ToshiZO outlined it perfectly. Everyone who agrees with Itachi's victory can't describe because they don't know it. Kisame was manhandled by Gai throughout the manga and Kakuzu manhandled Kakashi, who is portrayed superior to Gai throughout the manga; simply by corresponding these points, author portrays Kakuzu as the superior character than Kisame, because of their performance against a selected character. One could raise a point on the fighting style advantage Gai had on Kisame, on the face of portrayal, this is invalid. I feel portrayal is quite irrelevant to bring up here, because feats speak greater volume.

I visualize the double standard here too. Because Kakuzu isn't a popular character in the general Naruto forum, people will disagree the eye contact avoidance strategy would work, yet in other match-ups where Itachi is pinned against a much more popular character, people will agree the eye contact avoidance strategy would work, despite the identical reasoning behind both instances. So far, I don't see what any Genjutsu Kakuzu can be caught by and be affected by. Someone who fight Hashirama and survived wouldn't be caught by Genjutsu's; even assuming he ever does, his anatomy should nullify the effect or heart monsters negate it via partner method.

3T Itachi lost to Kakashi and Kakashi lost to Kakuzu. We can figure out who wins, then.

 

[Zexion~]

Where do I begin...? I'll start on portrayal. ToshiZO outlined it perfectly. Everyone who agrees with Itachi's victory can't describe because they don't know it. Kisame was manhandled by Gai throughout the manga and Kakuzu manhandled Kakashi, who is portrayed superior to Gai throughout the manga; simply by corresponding these points, author portrays Kakuzu as the superior character than Kisame, because of their performance against a selected character. One could raise a point on the fighting style advantage Gai had on Kisame, on the face of portrayal, this is invalid. I feel portrayal is quite irrelevant to bring up here, because feats speak greater volume.

I visualize the double standard here too. Because Kakuzu isn't a popular character in the general Naruto forum, people will disagree the eye contact avoidance strategy would work, yet in other match-ups where Itachi is pinned against a much more popular character, people will agree the eye contact avoidance strategy would work, despite the identical reasoning behind both instances. So far, I don't see what any Genjutsu Kakuzu can be caught by and be affected by. Someone who fight Hashirama and survived wouldn't be caught by Genjutsu's; even assuming he ever does, his anatomy should nullify the effect or heart monsters negate it via partner method.

3T Itachi lost to Kakashi and Kakashi lost to Kakuzu. We can figure out who wins, then.

Agree with most of this, except Gai beat Kisame COMPLETELY because of the match-up disadvantage so that isn't a great reasoning, not to mention featswise Gai is probably stronger than Kakashi :lol

 

[KCN]

Smh, it's 3am here I'm going sleep. If you're still debating this tomorrow I'll respond then.

 

[KidGamer65]

I JUST POSTED THE SCAN OF HIM SAYING CHAKRA NETWORK?!? That was the Viz scan as well lol.

-They are threads with hearts that come with SOMETHING (at least) that Kakuzu pushes chakra through to gather the element.

-

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No hand-signs, although I don't see how that is relevant as I already know Kakuzu is the one who has to push the chakra through the hearts to use the jutsu.

-Either way the chakra has to stop flowing through one tube and start flowing through another, it can't just continuously flow while he's changing the tubes as there is a period of time where it would be flowing through nothing...which is impossible.


You're also making assumptions so don't even start that.

No, you obviously didn't post anything. I just read the scan myself and he states that he took their natures that were harbored in their chakra networks. Where and how in the world does that equate to "hearts have full blown chakra networks". Let me post this scan one more time.

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THAT is the chakra network. The heart is only a part of that. As for the rest:

-Yes, they are threads with hearts that contain chakra tubes. Irrelevant to your claim of "the masks contain their own chakra networks" lmao.

-You can't see when the jutsu was initiated so how is this a counter?

-Flowing through nothing for a second or two or three=/=Stopped flow throughout the entire body which is a stated requirement to bust out of Genjutsu. The chakra not being able to flow through the heart=/=The chakra not being able to flow in every other area of the body. That is what you are failing to understand despite this concept being so simple. Instead of repeating your stance over and over and over again why don't you just prove the following:

"Kakuzu switching his hearts will cause his entire chakra flow to be stopped and disrupted thus breaking Genjutsu" Cause as of right now you are doing nothing but making baseless assumptions and jumping through hoops like you Kakuzu supporters always do when pushed into a corner.

And lmao. I'm making no assumptions. Literally everything I stated in that last post is an established fact. The only one making assumptions here is you.

 

[Edogawa]

Agree with most of this, except Gai beat Kisame COMPLETELY because of the match-up disadvantage so that isn't a great reasoning, not to mention featswise Gai is probably stronger than Kakashi :lol

Match-up circumstances or featwise are all opinion orientated. I'm arguing specifics. Author portrays Kakuzu superior to Kisame by selecting them against a certain opponent and the said opponent they face are superior via portrayal - Kakuzu beating Kakashi and Gai beating Kisame; Kakashi is superior to Gai from the author's point of view.

 

[Zexion~]

First of all "He took in their hearts ALONG WITH THEIR CHAKRA NATURES HARBORED IN THEIR CHAKRA NETWORKS"

-No where does he say "were" to state past-tense
-No where does he say "Part of their chakra networks"

All of that was YOU making it up to back your own arguments, which you just criticized us "Kakuzu supporters" for doing the same.... I will post the scan again so you can't twist the wording around again.

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-Flowing through nothing for a second or two or three=/=Stopped flow throughout the entire body which is a stated requirement to bust out of Genjutsu. The chakra not being able to flow through the heart=/=The chakra not being able to flow in every other area of the body. That is what you are failing to understand despite this concept being so simple. Instead of repeating your stance over and over and over again why don't you just prove the following:

This is really all I care about though, and you've literally went from "chakra isn't disrupted at all" to "chakra is disrupted for not long enough" which is stupid, as you're thinking that the tubes are the ONLY thing being replaced.

Say I agree that it wouldn't be enough chakra disruption (even though Sakura implementing some chakra was enough) the fact that the heart is changing is enough physical disruption :lol as he would literally "die" for a few seconds while the hearts are being replaced, and in THAT case the chakra would be completely halted.

 

[ToshiZO]

Match-up circumstances or featwise are all opinion orientated. I'm arguing specifics. Author portrays Kakuzu superior to Kisame by selecting them against a certain opponent and the said opponent they face are superior via portrayal - Kakuzu beating Kakashi and Gai beating Kisame; Kakashi is superior to Gai from the author's point of view.

Finally someone who understands how portrayal works. Its not about circumstances when it comes to portrayal. You can argue for that in the feats department not for portrayal

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Agree with most of this, except Gai beat Kisame COMPLETELY because of the match-up disadvantage so that isn't a great reasoning, not to mention featswise Gai is probably stronger than Kakashi :lol

God bless you, Zexion. Lmao

 

[Zexion~]

God bless you, Zexion. Lmao

When I said most I meant the part about 3t Itachi not beating Kakuzu.

I just agreed with you that Kisame > Kakuzu in portrayal and feats lol

 

[KidGamer65]

First of all "He took in their hearts ALONG WITH THEIR CHAKRA NATURES HARBORED IN THEIR CHAKRA NETWORKS"

-No where does he say "were" to state past-tense
-No where does he say "Part of their chakra networks"

All of that was YOU making it up to back your own arguments, which you just criticized us "Kakuzu supporters" for doing the same.... I will post the scan again so you can't twist the wording around again.

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This is really all I care about though, and you've literally went from "chakra isn't disrupted at all" to "chakra is disrupted for not long enough" which is stupid, as you're thinking that the tubes are the ONLY thing being replaced.

Say I agree that it wouldn't be enough chakra disruption (even though Sakura implementing some chakra was enough) the fact that the heart is changing is enough physical disruption :lol as he would literally "die" for a few seconds while the hearts are being replaced, and in THAT case the chakra would be completely halted.

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Since you conveniently forgot how to read I'll lend a helping hand.

"He took in their hearts along with their chakra natures harbored in their chakra networks".

"He took in"

-That refers to the action.

"hearts"

-One object he took in.

"along with"

Means he took something else in.

"their chakra natures"

The other thing he took in.

"harbored"

Refers to the location of the thing he took.

"chakra networks"

The actual location of the thing he took. If I say "I'm going to get my book that's inside my house" does that mean I'm going to get my book and my house? No. :lol Same sentence structure here. Don't try and argue this because you will only make yourself look a fool I guarantee it.


I'm going to post this scan one more time since all you want to do is ignore fact when it comes to Kakuzu.

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That. Is. The. Chakra. Network. The chakra network is STATED to run throughout the entire body. Not just the heart. The ENTIRE BODY. Ignoring fact doesn't make it vanish.

And where did I go from "chakra isn't disturbed at all" to "chakra isn't disturbed long enough"? The chakra flow being stopped in that area doesn't mean it's stopped throughout the entire body which is what me and everyone else with common sense has been saying from the jump. I suggest you go to bed, wake up and then re-read everything you typed here so you realize how little sense it makes.

And no shit only the tubes are what is replaced (aside from the actual heart but this goes without saying) because that's all the hearts contribute to the chakra network. Anything else is nonsense you pulled from your **** cavity. Same goes for the bold. Whole lot of words but absolutely no evidence supporting them. You talk about the process of Kakuzu switching hearts while still living as if you have any idea what you are talking about.

-Genjutsu controls the chakra in the head.
-This guy thinks that stuff going on in a singular part of the chakra network automatically breaks Genjutus.
-:lol Wow. Come on bro.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

When I said most I meant the part about 3t Itachi not beating Kakuzu.

I just agreed with you that Kisame > Kakuzu in portrayal and feats lol

Lmao, thought you entered the point of no return there. Ya'll are just going to agree to disagree there then. If Itachi can solo Orochimaru with genjutsu, a legendary sannin with an incredible amount of fighting experience and intelligence, I see no reason why Kakuzu would be void by it.

 

[Zexion~]

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Since you conveniently forgot how to read I'll lend a helping hand.

"He took in their hearts along with their chakra natures harbored in their chakra networks".

"He took in"

-That refers to the action.

"hearts"

-One object he took in.

"along with"

Means he took something else in.

"their chakra natures"

The other thing he took in.

"harbored"

Refers to the location of the thing he took.

"chakra networks"

The actual location of the thing he took. If I say "I'm going to get my book that's inside my house" does that mean I'm going to get my book and my house? No. :lol Same sentence structure here. Don't try and argue this because you will only make yourself look a fool I guarantee it.


I'm going to post this scan one more time since all you want to do is ignore fact when it comes to Kakuzu.

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That. Is. The. Chakra. Network. The chakra network is STATED to run throughout the entire body. Not just the heart. The ENTIRE BODY. Ignoring fact doesn't make it vanish.

And where did I go from "chakra isn't disturbed at all" to "chakra isn't disturbed long enough"? The chakra flow being stopped in that area doesn't mean it's stopped throughout the entire body which is what me and everyone else with common sense has been saying from the jump. I suggest you go to bed, wake up and then re-read everything you typed here so you realize how little sense it makes.

And no shit only the tubes are what is replaced (aside from the actual heart but this goes without saying) because that's all the hearts contribute to the chakra network. Anything else is nonsense you pulled from your **** cavity. Same goes for the bold. Whole lot of words but absolutely no evidence supporting them. You talk about the process of Kakuzu switching hearts while still living as if you have any idea what you are talking about.

-Genjutsu controls the chakra in the head.
-This guy thinks that stuff going on in a singular part of the chakra network automatically breaks Genjutus.
-:lol Wow. Come on bro.

Yeah I re-read it and realized it, however your example sucks ass as its obvious, whereas this one isn't obvious as the word harbored doesn't mean he didn't take the chakra-networks it just doesn't assure he did.


Anyways your discrediting the disruption of these chakra tubes that are located in the heart THE CENTER OF THE CHAKRA NETWORK, if you disrupt the center of the chakra network logic and clear reason states the rest will also be slightly disrupted which is all it needs smh, you're acting like the chakra being disrupted is in something as irrelevant as the arms or legs when in reality it is the direct if not very near center.

But again, way to ignore my point entirely. Kakuzu can switch his hearts clearly as he doesn't still have the same one he started with 91 years ago.....


Also unless you're trying to tell me Sakura somehow completely stopped Naruto's whole chakra flow than you don't need to disrupt the entire flow to break Genjutsu.

 

[Zexion~]

Lmao, thought you entered the point of no return there. Ya'll are just going to agree to disagree there then. If Itachi can solo Orochimaru with genjutsu, a legendary sannin with an incredible amount of fighting experience and intelligence, I see no reason why Kakuzu would be void by it.

Not as much as Kakuzu (experience), and put Kakuzu in the same situation and he breaks that genjutsu with ease, he can still control his hearts seeing as the stake jutsu only restrains physical movement, he'd still be able to control his hearts and have them disrupt the hold of the genjutsu in some way or another, not to mention Orochimaru was much more arrogant than Kakuzu was.

I'm pretty much set on arguing Kakuzu pushes Kisame past anything but mid diff at this point.

 

[KidGamer65]

Yeah I re-read it and realized it, however your example sucks ass as its obvious, whereas this one isn't obvious as the word harbored doesn't mean he didn't take the chakra-networks it just doesn't assure he did.


Anyways your discrediting the disruption of these chakra tubes that are located in the heart THE CENTER OF THE CHAKRA NETWORK, if you disrupt the center of the chakra network logic and clear reason states the rest will also be slightly disrupted which is all it needs smh, you're acting like the chakra being disrupted is in something as irrelevant as the arms or legs when in reality it is the direct if not very near center.

But again, way to ignore my point entirely. Kakuzu can switch his hearts clearly as he doesn't still have the same one he started with 91 years ago.....

No, it makes perfect sense. Harbored and "inside of" are the same thing. "Chakra natures harbored in the chakra networks" is the same statement as "chakra natures inside of the chakra network". :lol Whether or not it's "obvious" is irrelevant to the point of the example. The words "harbored in" means that he took the chakra natures inside of the chakra networks. Not this hard to read.


Ah. "Logic and clear reason". Most common and popular argument used by those who have realized they have no actual evidence to prove their claims. Your logic and clear reason isn't a Manga scan or something of equal weight so I'm not really interested in it. Where is the proof that removing the heart disrupts the chakra network? Nowhere. So stop arguing that it does. "The center" is irrelevant unless you can actually show why that is significant instead of saying "logic and clear reason". :lol

And no, I didn't ignore your point. I never said he can't switch his hearts out. :lol I just addressed your entire point.

Also unless you're trying to tell me Sakura somehow completely stopped Naruto's whole chakra flow than you don't need to disrupt the entire flow to break Genjutsu.

:lol. That's exactly what happened. She stopped and disrupted his flow by putting her own chakra into his body. Don't make up reasons for why this is "impossible" or something like that. At best all you would be able to argue is that she stopped the flow of chakra to his head, which is where Genjutsu is used. But that doesn't happen in this argument of yours anyway so mentioning it is pointless.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Not as much as Kakuzu (experience), and put Kakuzu in the same situation and he breaks that genjutsu with ease, he can still control his hearts seeing as the stake jutsu only restrains physical movement, he'd still be able to control his hearts and have them disrupt the hold of the genjutsu in some way or another, not to mention Orochimaru was much more arrogant than Kakuzu was.

I'm pretty much set on arguing Kakuzu pushes Kisame past anything but mid diff at this point.

Experience alone doesn't dictate everything in a fight though. It's a factor, but not a major factor. Kakuzu getting feinted by Naruto twice, despite all that experience being a perfect example. Even then, we're speaking about Orichimaru here. Hailed to be a legendary shinobi, and one of the greatest masterminds in this manga. For him to be lol'd by the Sharingan speaks a lot more then just years of experience. Then we have the fact that Itachi is a Uchiha prodigy. Even if we were to assume that Kakuzu has experience fighting against the Sharingan, that doesn't mean he has ever dealt with an Uchiha at an elite level.

I don't agree with Kakuzu easily breaking out of 3T genjutsu for the reasons already stated, so you can continue debating that with KG. Agreed on Kakuzu pushing Kisame to med diff.

 

[Icelerate]

@KidGamer, why is Byakogou seal on that scan?