Kakuzu vs. Itachi

Brother Numpsay

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READ what you are posting. The DB doesn't say that matching Fuuton w/ Katon=Hotter flame.

I said hotter flame where?

The DB states that when combined with wind it becomes more intense. Period.

Which I just said.

Mentions literally nothing about size or chakra amount. Fuuton itself increases the potency regardless of the amount matching that of the flame.

I know it doesnt because I was putting it in more context to the manga. Do you not agree on the fact that Kakuzu's jutsu is a different scenario then Yamato's example to Naruto's flames and wind relation? Or what Sasuke's Katon took advantage of from Baku's suction? If you believe its the same then I'll just stop arguing with you.

No, it doesn't. Based on nothing. Try arguing with actual fact and not baseless assumption sometime. I hear it works wonders.

Sorry I thought wind does indeed make Katon stronger.


What are you talking about? Did I not just post a DB entry? The DB states that Zukkoku can be enhanced when mixed with Fuuton. That is blatantly describing what Kakuzu did in the Manga just like all databook entries do. So again, stop making things up.

What Kakuzu did in the manga was combine Fire and Wind together. You are arguing that he was actually using the Fire's and Wind's actual representative of their jutsu. So Im not the one making things up here.

But the main point is they are two different things. Being able to move and being able to mold chakra on their own are two different claims, and you can't support the latter.

Your main point insist that its the only way for them to move KG. If it cant mold chakra on their own then they cant use Jingou on their own. Them changing their appearance and properties requires to manipulate Jingou, shown where they hid away from Choji's attack.

And that's an instance where he was either off panel when he used the jutsu, or where he used a hand sign. Thus irrelevant to your argument.

It goes with the implication that hands signs arent required when a merge-Kakuzu used the same exact jutsu. Being fused with him doesnt change the fact that the jutsu still has the requirement to perform it. No evidence Kakuzu can use Zukkoko, Gian, and Atsugai with zero hand seals.


It's not a separate force of chakra. "Chakra" refers to the chakra nature inside said hearts. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then it would of added the adjective for that, then actually mentioning it later on what it means on taking the heat and chakra.

No. Jiongu are threads controlled by his chakra. My god where are you getting this nonsense from? His chakra network is a completely separate thing from his threads. Sasori is irrelevant. Sasori is not Kakuzu. The logic is not the same. He is a human puppet with only a core for his center. Kakuzu simply has threads inside of his body.

Right. Because based on what FRS did to him. Got it.

None of those are the same thing as him taking the heart currently sustaining his life and switching it. So yes. Get some evidence or simply don't make the claim.

He was using the Suitons Mask's heart as his first death, is evidence that he can switch out the heart sustaining his life based on the fact he didnt start off with his original.
 
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Zexion~

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None of those are the same thing as him taking the heart currently sustaining his life and switching it. So yes. Get some evidence or simply don't make the claim.

You just agreed he could do this like three posts ago
 

KidGamer65

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Lmao this guy was so thirsty for me to post an argument and now that the argument has been posted you are using bad logic to refute it. Can't say I didn't see this coming.

I said hotter flame where?

when feats and DB implies the flames becoming tenser?

Intense refers to the heat. :lol Come on now.

Which I just said.

Then stop arguing about chakra amount.

I know it doesnt because I was putting it in more context to the manga. Do you not agree on the fact that Kakuzu's jutsu is a different scenario then Yamato's example to Naruto's flames and wind relation? Or what Sasuke's Katon took advantage of from Baku's suction? If you believe its the same then I'll just stop arguing with you.

Then do me a favor and stop arguing with me, because as usual all you can post is incoherent babble and ridiculous arguments fueled by nothing but your extreme bias for a drawing. Let someone who can argue their point intelligently take over. Yamato stated that flame Kakuzu's Fuuton eats wind and becomes stronger. Sasuke's Katon vs. Baku is irrelevant. He won that clash because the beast sucked the jutsu in. Irrelevant to element vs. element as Katon didn't clash with Fuuton there.

Stop trying to make up nonsense that doesn't exist. We know how flame vs. wind works and that is what is shown and stated for Kakuzu's two jutsu. Not this idiocy you are trying to push. There is no combination and there is no matching of chakra amount.


What Kakuzu did in the manga was combine Fire and Wind together. You are arguing that he was actually using the Fire's and Wind's actual representative of their jutsu. So Im not the one making things up here.

And his fire and wind jutsu have been shown. Period. They aren't generic streams. They are Atsugai and Zukkoku regardless of the difference in scale between each use.

Your main point insist that its the only way for them to move KG. If it cant mold chakra on their own then they cant use Jingou on their own. Them changing their appearance and properties requires to manipulate Jingou, shown where they hid away from Choji's attack.

Once again you are making stuff up. :lol I'd love to see some actual proof from this that is from the Manga or Databook. The threads don't need to actively mold and manipulate chakra to move. That doesn't even make sense. The DB states their are creatures that can move autonomously. Manga states that the threads are controlled by chakra. Ino states that the Masks themselves give off a bad chakra.

Now. Get me some real evidence that the masks on their own can manipulate chakra and free someone from Genjutsu.

It goes with the implication that hands signs arent required when a merge-Kakuzu used the same exact jutsu. Being fused with him doesnt change the fact that the jutsu still has the requirement to perform it. No evidence Kakuzu can use Zukkoko, Gian, and Atsugai with zero hand seals.

That is exactly what was shown in the Manga. Kakuzu using his Fuuton and Katon with no hand signs when merged. Him having generic Katon and generic Fuuton is just something you've made up

Then it would of added the adjective for that, then actually mentioning it later on what it means on taking the heat and chakra.

What are you even saying here? :lol He takes the heart, which contains chakra tubes containing the chakra natures of the enemy, and puts it into his own body.


Right. Because based on what FRS did to him. Got it.

Not a counter. Not even a coherent post. Jiongu are threads controlled by chakra. The chakra coil system is something completely different. And you wonder why Kakuzu supporters aren't taken seriously.

He was using the Suitons Mask's heart as his first death, is evidence that he can switch out the heart sustaining his life based on the fact he didnt start off with his original.

And what is his original heart?

You just agreed he could do this like three posts ago

Because I assumed you guys were actually referencing some kind of Manga fact. If you are then providing it shouldn't be an issue. :lol
 
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KidGamer65

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Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work* (火遁・頭刻苦, Katon: Zukokku)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
User: Kakuzu

Advancing is a tsunami of hell-fire!
All one sees is turned to dust!!

This technique drops a small fireball on the ground, but in just a moment, the flames spread to the surrounding area, scorching the entire surface. By adding Wind nature, the vigour of the fire is increased, causing a burning so tremendous, it will reduce the are to a field ravaged by fire...!!

[picture of the fire heading towards team Asuma and Kakashi]
→The raging flames strike the enemy from underfoot!! Because the extent is wide, this technique is difficult to evade.

*The names of Kakuzu's techniques don't make much sense at first sight. This is because Kishimoto took the names from the legendary mecha anime "Mobile Suit Gundam" (機動戦士ガンダム, Kidou Senshi Gandamu), slightly altered them in some cases, and thought of kanji for them. Zukokku comes from the MSM-07 Z'Gok (ズゴック, Zugokku).

Stop denying Manga fact. It makes you look desperate when there is really no reason to be.
 

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He swaps the one giving him life obviously hence why his doesn't stop from old age.
 

KidGamer65

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He swaps the one giving him life obviously hence why his doesn't stop from old age.

You do know that this scan simply states he stocks up on hearts before his own gives out, so that when his does eventually give out he can switch to his reserve heats right? Lmao.
 

Zexion~

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You do know that this scan simply states he stocks up on hearts before his own gives out, so that when his does eventually give out he can switch to his reserve heats right? Lmao.

lol...... He's 91, pretty sure Kishi wrote him to be extraordinarily old, he swapped the hearts before the old one gave up and even it was for the future he still has to eventually swap hearts so the point is clearly there.
 

RedRobin

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I dont get why people always assume genjustu one shots people like Kakuzu.
 

Brother Numpsay

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Intense refers to the heat. :lol Come on now.

If thats what the word means in context then yes I could say it because thats the word the official DB used lol. So ill post it once again and outline it for you since you seem to miss it along the fact you are still using unofficial DB translation to make your point.
[ ]


Then stop arguing about chakra amount.

YOU are the one that keeps mentioning chakra amount. YOU. YOU kept up bringing up how its irreverent, like I brought this point up. NEVER. Chakra amount has NEVER been relevant to me because I believe it is possible to change the chakra amount in ones jutsu, as Madara and Sasuke proved.

Does that change the fact that it automatically means Kakuzu's Mask was using their representative jutsu of their element, as proof? Nope and you definitely hadn't convince me yet.


Then do me a favor and stop arguing with me, because as usual all you can post is incoherent babble and ridiculous arguments fueled by nothing but your extreme bias for a drawing. Let someone who can argue their point intelligently take over. Yamato stated that flame Kakuzu's Fuuton eats wind and becomes stronger. Sasuke's Katon vs. Baku is irrelevant. He won that clash because the beast sucked the jutsu in. Irrelevant to element vs. element as Katon didn't clash with Fuuton there.

Stop trying to make up nonsense that doesn't exist. We know how flame vs. wind works and that is what is shown and stated for Kakuzu's two jutsu. Not this idiocy you are trying to push. There is no combination and there is no matching of chakra amount.

Dont worry this wont drag on not too long, not because I cant debate "intelligently" but because its not easy talking to someone who has his head stuck up ass. Yes Yamato states the flame gets stronger but NEVER said every Katon that encounter Futon gains combustion force which you kept on ignoring Kakuzu's Katon gets when enhanced by wind. Otherwise I would be actually argue that Enton arrow hitting COFRS still gain some combustion which it clearly didnt. AS the Enton completely ate the wind from the FRS. Enton is high level of flames so I can use it as an example just like how Yamato's comment, that Naruto reminisce in that chapter, on how Wind fuels Fire is no different to using it on Enton.

And his fire and wind jutsu have been shown. Period. They aren't generic streams. They are Atsugai and Zukkoku regardless of the difference in scale between each use.

EXACTLY and manga ALWAYS Label the jutsu they are using ALWAYS. If it wasnt a generic stream then Kishimoto would have have Kakuzu labeled as such. And the fact that it was done multiple times shows otherwise. Give me proof on consistence jutsu not being label, to proof its not relevant to name a jutsu then Ill concede. Otherwise this goes no where.


Once again you are making stuff up. :lol I'd love to see some actual proof from this that is from the Manga or Databook. The threads don't need to actively mold and manipulate chakra to move. That doesn't even make sense. The DB states their are creatures that can move autonomously. Manga states that the threads are controlled by chakra. Ino states that the Masks themselves give off a bad chakra.

Now. Get me some real evidence that the masks on their own can manipulate chakra and free someone from Genjutsu.

[ ] They can manipulate their properties. The same exact way on how you manipulate Jingou.

[ ]Changed their properties into bundle of strings, going inside Kakuzu.

[ ][ ]<- Same logic Kakuzu done here as not only did Kakuzu changed his appearance it clearly shows changing your properties effects his chakra too.

That is exactly what was shown in the Manga. Kakuzu using his Fuuton and Katon with no hand signs when merged. Him having generic Katon and generic Fuuton is just something you've made up

Waiting for proof

What are you even saying here? :lol He takes the heart, which contains chakra tubes containing the chakra natures of the enemy, and puts it into his own body.

NVM.


Not a counter. Not even a coherent post. Jiongu are threads controlled by chakra. The chakra coil system is something completely different. And you wonder why Kakuzu supporters aren't taken seriously.

Sigh even when in agreement. Jesus, this kid.

And what is his original heart?


 

KidGamer65

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lol...... He's 91, pretty sure Kishi wrote him to be extraordinarily old, he swapped the hearts before the old one gave up and even it was for the future he still has to eventually swap hearts so the point is clearly there.

-Heart dies.
-New one replaces it.

What you posted doesn't prove your point.


If thats what the word means in context then yes I could say it because thats the word the official DB used lol. So ill post it once again and outline it for you since you seem to miss it along the fact you are still using unofficial DB translation to make your point.
[ ]

I know what the official DB says, and they say the same thing. Intensity of the flame refers to the heat of the flame. :lol What is there to argue about?



YOU are the one that keeps mentioning chakra amount. YOU. YOU kept up bringing up how its irreverent, like I brought this point up. NEVER. Chakra amount has NEVER been relevant to me because I believe it is possible to change the chakra amount in ones jutsu, as Madara and Sasuke proved.

That is a perfect example because Katon mask had to match the Futon Mask chakra. . <= And the DB never states the bold at all. It said it needed the priorities of wind nature, not priority of a specific wind jutsu via Atsugai.

You used Sasuke matching Naruto's chakra amount as evidence that Kakuzu did the same here. :lol @ you never bringing it up. Either you are doing what you do best and simply lying about what you've argued, or you are using terms like "matching the chakra" without actually knowing what they mean. :lol


Does that change the fact that it automatically means Kakuzu's Mask was using their representative jutsu of their element, as proof? Nope and you definitely hadn't convince me yet.

Chakra amount is completely unrelated to why you have no evidence that Kakuzu can use generic streams of his elements. The fact that it's a claim based on literally nothing but your opinion.

Dont worry this wont drag on not too long, not because I cant debate "intelligently" but because its not easy talking to someone who has his head stuck up ass. Yes Yamato states the flame gets stronger but NEVER said every Katon that encounter Futon gains combustion force which you kept on ignoring Kakuzu's Katon gets when enhanced by wind. Otherwise I would be actually argue that Enton arrow hitting COFRS still gain some combustion which it clearly didnt. AS the Enton completely ate the wind from the FRS. Enton is high level of flames so I can use it as an example just like how Yamato's comment, that Naruto reminisce in that chapter, on how Wind fuels Fire is no different to using it on Enton.

No, it isn't easy talking to someone who has his head stuck up his ass. That's why arguing with you is a pain. If you could type coherently and argue a point that actually makes sense it'd be a better discussion. Now let's read this together since it seems whenever it comes to proving your point you conveniently "forget" how to do so.

-Yamato states the flame gets stronger due to Wind.
-Zukkoku's DB entry states that when combined with wind the flame increases in intensity.
-The bold is something you made up, again. Quit making stuff up. :lol The DB states that wind increases the flame's intensity. It doesn't say it increases it's combustive force. That is a completely different sentence referring to the nature of the jutsu itself. The jutsu explodes and the heat and thus power of said explosion is increased due to Wind. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just stop.

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Show me where the DB says "Wind increases intensity and combustive force". I'll wait.






EXACTLY and manga ALWAYS Label the jutsu they are using ALWAYS. If it wasnt a generic stream then Kishimoto would have have Kakuzu labeled as such. And the fact that it was done multiple times shows otherwise. Give me proof on consistence jutsu not being label, to proof its not relevant to name a jutsu then Ill concede. Otherwise this goes no where.
















-All scans where Bijuu Dama, Chidori, Rasengan, FRS and more weren't actually labeled when used.


I can get more scans if you want. No label doesn't mean Kakuzu wasn't using the only Fuuton and the only Katon jutsu he has been stated, shown or implied to have. Him using generic streams of Fuuton and Raiton are literally based on nothing. Nothing at all so you can do us both a favor and just concede this point instead of jumping through hoops to try and prove your nonsense argument. Admitting you are wrong isn't that hard.

"Otherwise this goes nowhere" Obviously it'd go nowhere because people like you can't admit they are wrong when they lack the evidence to prove their point.

"Prove me wrong or I'm right" You and many other people's go to move when you can't actually post a logical argument.


[ ] They can manipulate their properties. The same exact way on how you manipulate Jingou.

[ ]Changed their properties into bundle of strings, going inside Kakuzu.

[ ][ ]<- Same logic Kakuzu done here as not only did Kakuzu changed his appearance it clearly shows changing your properties effects his chakra too.

They are manipulated using chakra once again. This isn't the same as them actually building up chakra on their own. Something they've never been shown doing nor implied to be capable of doing. Not sure how many times that's going to have to be repeated before you stop grasping at straws here. Kakuzu changed his appearance and his chakra increased. That's KAKUZU. Not the masks. Them being based on the same jutsu doesn't mean that every time they change shape they are changing like Kakuzu did when he released all those threads from his body.



Waiting for proof

Proof of what? That Kakuzu didn't use generic streams? Not how it works. His abilities were shown and generic elements weren't apart of that. If you want to argue he can use generic streams then you should prove it. How many times am I going to have to tell you how to argue a point? :lol





Sigh even when in agreement. Jesus, this kid.

Your posts are so incoherent that I can't tell whether or not you agree or disagree.




Ok.
 
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Nattana

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I can't believe this threas is still going on. And going on hard.

Has there been any good argument, yet, from Kakuzu fans stating how he'd stand a chance against Itachi?
 

KidGamer65

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I can't believe this threas is still going on. And going on hard.

Has there been any good argument, yet, from Kakuzu fans stating how he'd stand a chance against Itachi?

For this match up? Not a single one. For 3-Tomoe? Not really but I can see one being made if people stop trying to prove nonsense like hearts break Genjutsu. :lol
 

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For this match up? Not a single one. For 3-Tomoe? Not really but I can see one being made if people stop trying to prove nonsense like hearts break Genjutsu. :lol

Quoting this one.


Fam, if it can switch out physically with a dead heart that hasn't been destroyed/injured in anyway it can switch with a live one :lol
 

KidGamer65

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Quoting this one.


Fam, if it can switch out physically with a dead heart that hasn't been destroyed/injured in anyway it can switch with a live one :lol

Regardless. It doesn't matter as this doesn't help him in this match up, or at least not when it comes to countering Genjutsu. Not to mention EjBlack has already actually provided evidence for this claim.
 

Zexion~

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Regardless. It doesn't matter as this doesn't help him in this match up, or at least not when it comes to countering Genjutsu. Not to mention EjBlack has already actually provided evidence for this claim.

Again what genjutsu is being used here, physical restraining? Featless Mind control? Diversion? None of those help Itachi take Kakuzu down 5 times :lol and killing himself for a short period of time definitely counters genjutsu you can say otherwise all you want I suppose.
 

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Again what genjutsu is being used here, physical restraining? Featless Mind control? Diversion? None of those help Itachi take Kakuzu down 5 times :lol and killing himself for a short period of time definitely counters genjutsu you can say otherwise all you want I suppose.

Featless mind control? Unless you think Kakuzu of all people can overpower Itachi's Genjutsu then you can stop acting a fool and start admitting that you are wrong or start posting something that isn't asinine. He binds Kakuzu and kills off the hearts in his body or he uses the same kind of Genjutsu he used on Deidara to let Kakuzu murk himself. Genjutsu isn't needed to kill him 5 times when the main reason Genjutsu is needed is because of Domu.


And no. The bold is an extremely stupid and senseless claim that you've failed to prove multiple times now and that is why you and the rest of these Kakuzu supporters aren't taken seriously when it comes to this match up or any match up involving Kakuzu. You hold on to your moronic opinions even when they have been ground into dust by real fact. Lmao annoying. Don't post at all if you are simply gonna say nonsense like "haha im right regardless of how much proof you bring". :lol There is no "death for a short period of time", it's nonsense you've made up. There is no "switching hearts cancels Genjutsu", more nonsense you've made up. 12 pages and I've yet to see an actual argument for why Kakuzu beats Itachi.

3-T Itachi defeats Kakuzu comfortably and Itachi w/ a single MS tech (regardless of which one) unrestricted rapes until I see some real arguments. So does Hebi Sasuke, but with more ease.
 
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Zexion~

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Featless mind control? Unless you think Kakuzu of all people can overpower Itachi's Genjutsu then you can stop acting a fool and start admitting that you are wrong or start posting something that isn't asinine. He binds Kakuzu and kills off the hearts in his body or he uses the same kind of Genjutsu he used on Deidara to let Kakuzu murk himself. Genjutsu isn't needed to kill him 5 times when the main reason Genjutsu is needed is because of Domu.


And no. The bold is an extremely stupid and senseless claim that you've failed to prove multiple times now and that is why you and the rest of these Kakuzu supporters aren't taken seriously when it comes to this match up or any match up involving Kakuzu. You hold on to your moronic opinions even when they have been ground into dust by real fact. Lmao annoying. Don't post at all if you are simply gonna say nonsense like "haha im right regardless of how much proof you bring". :lol There is no "death for a short period of time", it's nonsense you've made up. There is no "switching hearts cancels Genjutsu", more nonsense you've made up. 12 pages and I've yet to see an actual argument for why Kakuzu beats Itachi.

3-T Itachi defeats Kakuzu comfortably and Itachi w/ a single MS tech (regardless of which one) unrestricted rapes until I see some real arguments. So does Hebi Sasuke, but with more ease.


:lol

-Agrees Kakuzu can switch hearts
-Knows death means no chakra flow

"Kakuzu supporters are dumb because they can't prove anything"

What do I have to prove? The fodders who's hearts were stolen in the war-arc instantly died when their hearts were removed. You're confusing injuring the heart with completely removing it from its functions lol.

You're also once again providing no arguments with what Itachi does with genjutsu, he restrains Kakuzu with physical genjutsu? He can still use Domu so thats pointless. Mindcontrol? What is he going to do with 3T here....He controlled a senseless Kabuto :lol what a feat. Diversion is just a defensive maneuver.
 

KidGamer65

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:lol

-Agrees Kakuzu can switch hearts
-Knows death means no chakra flow

"Kakuzu supporters are dumb because they can't prove anything"

What do I have to prove? The fodders who's hearts were stolen in the war-arc instantly died when their hearts were removed. You're confusing injuring the heart with completely removing it from its functions lol.

You're also once again providing no arguments with what Itachi does with genjutsu, he restrains Kakuzu with physical genjutsu? He can still use Domu so thats pointless. Mindcontrol? What is he going to do with 3T here....He controlled a senseless Kabuto :lol what a feat. Diversion is just a defensive maneuver.

:lol

-You have nothing to show that they died instantly when they lost their hearts. So don't go there. Not to mention it's a trash example because having your heart ripped out of your chest also results in mass bleeding and pain, none of which is present for Kakuzu when he switches hearts.

-Removing the heart and it's functions ceasing yield the same result, and the cause of death not being instant is unrelated to the state of the heart after it has stopped ceasing it's functions. Don't make stuff up and stop grasping at straws.

1. Heart STOPS.
2. You die after a few seconds at least.

Imagine thinking that Kakuzu switching his hearts out (not even a real injury) yields instantaneous death even when decapitation doesn't do the same thing. :lol Are you serious right now?

-Proof Kakuzu can utilize Domu or perform any kind of Ninjutsu with a disrupted chakra flow? I'll wait.

-Again, quit with the crap logic. FT already posted a scan showing that they were worried about his Mind Control capabilities. Sasuke can control boss summons with his Sharingan. I'd love to see some real reasoning as to why superior Itachi can't control Kakuzu long enough to land a lethal hit. I'll wait.

-And no, it's not a defensive maneuver. Dafuq? It was a defensive maneuver then Deidara wouldn't have almost killed himself. (Defense :lol) B wouldn't have almost gotten skewered by Shuriken as a result of said Genjutsu (that he managed to break in time because of his Bijuu, something Kakuzu obviously doesn't have). I don't think two scenarios that result in the death of Itachi's opponents can be classified as "defensive maneuvers".

How does Kakuzu win? I'll wait.
 

KidGamer65

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I dont get why people always assume genjustu one shots people like Kakuzu.

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:lol
 

RedRobin

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:lol

I didnt mean simply strong characters, I was talking about his abilities.

People like Sasori and Kakuzu arent characters who can be taken down so easily with genjustu.
 
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