Kakuzu vs. Itachi

[KidGamer65]

@KidGamer, why is Byakogou seal on that scan?

Idk. Found it on google.

 

[Zexion~]

No, it makes perfect sense. Harbored and "inside of" are the same thing. "Chakra natures harbored in the chakra networks" is the same statement as "chakra natures inside of the chakra network". :lol Whether or not it's "obvious" is irrelevant to the point of the example. The words "harbored in" means that he took the chakra natures inside of the chakra networks. Not this hard to read.


Ah. "Logic and clear reason". Most common and popular argument used by those who have realized they have no actual evidence to prove their claims. Your logic and clear reason isn't a Manga scan or something of equal weight so I'm not really interested in it. Where is the proof that removing the heart disrupts the chakra network? Nowhere. So stop arguing that it does. "The center" is irrelevant unless you can actually show why that is significant instead of saying "logic and clear reason". :lol

And no, I didn't ignore your point. I never said he can't switch his hearts out. :lol I just addressed your entire point.



:lol. That's exactly what happened. She stopped and disrupted his flow by putting her own chakra into his body. Don't make up reasons for why this is "impossible" or something like that. At best all you would be able to argue is that she stopped the flow of chakra to his head, which is where Genjutsu is used. But that doesn't happen in this argument of yours anyway so mentioning it is pointless.

*sigh* Switching out his hearts would mean he would ultimately die for a very short period of time as he'd have no heart keeping his body alive, in death chakra stops flowing so it would disrupt it. Whether you want to believe the chakra disruption or not the physiological disruption is certainly enough to break him out of a genjutsu here, and you just said you agree that Kakuzu can switch his hearts.

Not to mention Itachi would probably catch Kakuzu with this once, and then proceed to not take out another heart.

 

[KidGamer65]

*sigh* Switching out his hearts would mean he would ultimately die for a very short period of time as he'd have no heart keeping his body alive, in death chakra stops flowing so it would disrupt it. Whether you want to believe the chakra disruption or not the physiological disruption is certainly enough to break him out of a genjutsu here, and you just said you agree that Kakuzu can switch his hearts.

Not to mention Itachi would probably catch Kakuzu with this once, and then proceed to not take out another heart.

Once again. Stop talking about this jutsu like you know how it works. For all you know it could be a seamless switch where Kakuzu doesn't die. Especially since death wouldn't be instantaneous. :lol

He'd catch Kakuzu, kill his main heart, thus he needs to switch to one of his masks meaning he can't protect himself with Domu. Then killing the rest is clockwork. Not to mention Genjutsu isn't a one time deal. There's paralysis, there's mind control, there's reality warping. Lmao. Too many options.

 

[Booker]

3T Itachi lost to Kakashi

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Sorry, did I miss a chapter or something? Did Kishi write something into the manga that I didn't know about?

Because Kakashi has never beaten Itachi, ever. The one time Kakashi fought Itachi he got one-shotted.

 

[BLAZE]

Sorry, did I miss a chapter or something?

No but i think u missed his horrible fanfics [

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[Tantalus Thief]

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Sorry, did I miss a chapter or something? Did Kishi write something into the manga that I didn't know about?

Because Kakashi has never beaten Itachi, ever. The one time Kakashi fought Itachi he got one-shotted.

was thinking the same thing :lol. Maybe he's talking about how Itachi went to MS to take Kakashi down.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

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Sorry, did I miss a chapter or something? Did Kishi write something into the manga that I didn't know about?

Because Kakashi has never beaten Itachi, ever. The one time Kakashi fought Itachi he got one-shotted.

Most likely referring to when Kakashi beat 30% Itachi with Narutos help.

 

[Booker]

was thinking the same thing :lol. Maybe he's talking about how Itachi went to MS to take Kakashi down.

Let's not sit here and pretend like 3T Itachi couldn't have merked Kakashi at any point lol. That was retconned into an MS tech, but the whole point of that interaction was to display Kakashi was dirt to Itachi.

Most likely referring to when Kakashi beat 30% Itachi with Narutos help.

Probably, but that's not even remotely "Kakashi beating 3T Itachi".

 

[BLAZE]

Cmon guys not a stretch since he believes Nagato beats SM Hashi and Raikiri kills samehada :|

 

[Forbidden Technique]

Let's not sit here and pretend like 3T Itachi couldn't have merked Kakashi at any point lol. That was retconned into an MS tech, but the whole point of that interaction was to display Kakashi was dirt to Itachi.



Probably, but that's not even remotely "Kakashi beating 3T Itachi".

I mean, are you surprised? It's Edogawa/Madara Rules. Nearly everything the kid posts is hardly ever even remotely accurate to the manga.

 

[Zexion~]

Itachi did resort to MS to take out Kakashi in part one......Kakashi (while pressured) was keeping up with Itachi pretty well :lol however again its hard to judge as Itachi probably had no intention of doing any real damage there.


Anyways @KG if a heart is removed from the body its pretty instant, and even if death isn't the chakra disruption is :lol (isn't heart controller over the chakra system?)

lol @ mind control, didn't know 3T Itachi had Koto, his genjutsu while excellent has shown nothing but diversion and paralysis.

 

[KidGamer65]

Anyways @KG if a heart is removed from the body its pretty instant, and even if death isn't the chakra disruption is :lol (isn't heart controller over the chakra system?)

lol @ mind control, didn't know 3T Itachi had Koto, his genjutsu while excellent has shown nothing but diversion and paralysis.

Uh, no, it's not instant. When the brain stops getting oxygen you die. A not functioning heart doesn't change the fact that the oxygen already pumped through your body is still present. When said oxygen runs out, you die. Lmao not even death by decapitation is instant let alone what you are describing here, and that's assuming this will even be the case as again, it's something you've failed to support with actual scans.


And there is no chakra disruption. For the a millionth time now that is something you can't even begin to support. And no, nowhere in the Manga was the heart ever been implied to be the controller of the entire chakra system.

:lol I highly suggest you actually do some research before you post. Would save me the trouble of telling you that Itachi controlled Kabuto to make him release Edo Tensei. Don't say because it was his MS, because MS doesn't give you new types of Genjutsu unless it's a specific technique like Tsukuyomi or Koto.

Not to mention Itachi mind controlled some girl to distract Jiraiya while he went after Naruto. [

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Itachi wins comfortably regardless of MS being restricted.



And lmao. No. Kakashi hasn't ever kept up with a serious 3-Tomoe Itachi. Itachi was dicking around and still had the clear upper hand. A superior Kakashi to the one who got raped by Itachi couldn't even defeat 30% Itachi who can't use the Mangekyo on his own. He needed Naruto's help. :lol

 

[Brother Numpsay]

I want to address this, out of interest to the discussion at hand. I didnt want to respond to wallies to where we would never agree with each other, concerning the points made. Though I can concede to the fact to your rebuttal for me claiming "Kakuzu can used HLM based the the evidence I provided". Though it really doesnt add much based on the feats that their digging ability is just as good as that jutsu itself. I digress

Other then that I would address Genjutsu points:

1. You've been saying that they can use Katon and Fuuton outside of Atsugai and Zukkoku, but I've yet to see actual evidence besides the fact that they were smaller in scale, which isn't evidence. Them looking different isn't evidence either. Atsugai+Zukkoku looks far different than Zukkoku on it's own despite it being nothing but an enhanced version.

The evidence is based on the fact that jutsu had been nameless nor have any implication in the databook being used. So saying its Atsugai+Zukkoku is you adding it to what the manga never implied. 2) Thats NOT how nature transformation works. Kakuzu cannot use Atsugai(read the DB description of the actual functionality of this jutsu)+Zukkoku to make a powered Zukkoku. One must match a specific ratio to create the jutsu (look at Naruto and Sasuke's example against Juubito. Otherwise Kakuzu would just be making a bigger flame then an actual combo since Zukkoku>Atsugai.

They can use their nature alternation all on their own as shown against Kakashi (no hand signs). But they need Kakuzu for actual jutsu on said element manipulation/properties, as shown in the manga.

The chakra flow being stopped in that area doesn't mean it's stopped throughout the entire body which is what me and everyone else with common sense has been saying from the jump.

I just want to point out that this is how it works for Jingou as the main frame of chakra network.

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If the heart is gone, then the entire network or body can't be supported or used, thus is dies. And manga states the same logic for Kakuzu, in order to defeat him.

 

[KidGamer65]

I want to address this, out of interest to the discussion at hand. I didnt want to respond to wallies to where we would never agree with each other, concerning the points made. Though I can concede to the fact to your rebuttal for me claiming "Kakuzu can used HLM based the the evidence I provided". Though it really doesnt add much based on the feats that their digging ability is just as good as that jutsu itself. I digress

Other then that I would address Genjutsu points:



The evidence is based on the fact that jutsu had been nameless nor have any implication in the databook being used. So saying its Atsugai+Zukkoku is you adding it to what the manga never implied. 2) Thats NOT how nature transformation works. Kakuzu cannot use Atsugai(read the DB description of the actual functionality of this jutsu)+Zukkoku to make a powered Zukkoku. One must match a specific ratio to create the jutsu (look at Naruto and Sasuke's example against Juubito. Otherwise Kakuzu would just be making a bigger flame then an actual combo since Zukkoku>Atsugai.

They can use their nature alternation all on their own as shown against Kakashi (no hand signs). But they need Kakuzu for actual jutsu on said element manipulation/properties, as shown in the manga.

Naruto and Sasuke is a terrible example. Sasuke had to match Naruto's chakra amount because Naruto's Fuuton is a Fuuton w/ a Rasengan in the middle of it. By matching the chakra the Rasengan is allowed to explode and create a larger flame. That didn't happen w/ Enton and COFRS. That is completely irrelevant with normal Katon and Fuuton. Katon eats Fuuton and gets stronger. Databook states that Katon+Fuuton is Zukkoku+Kakuzu's Fuuton, which is Atsugai.

Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work* (火遁・頭刻苦, Katon: Zukokku)
Ninjutsu, B-rank, Offensive, All ranges
User: Kakuzu

Advancing is a tsunami of hell-fire!
All one sees is turned to dust!!

This technique drops a small fireball on the ground, but in just a moment, the flames spread to the surrounding area, scorching the entire surface. By adding Wind nature, the vigour of the fire is increased, causing a burning so tremendous, it will reduce the are to a field ravaged by fire...!!

[picture of the fire heading towards team Asuma and Kakashi]
→The raging flames strike the enemy from underfoot!! Because the extent is wide, this technique is difficult to evade.

*The names of Kakuzu's techniques don't make much sense at first sight. This is because Kishimoto took the names from the legendary mecha anime "Mobile Suit Gundam" (機動戦士ガンダム, Kidou Senshi Gandamu), slightly altered them in some cases, and thought of kanji for them. Zukokku comes from the MSM-07 Z'Gok (ズゴック, Zugokku).

So what you are saying is false.

I just want to point out that this is how it works for Jingou as the main frame of chakra network.

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If the heart is gone, then the entire network or body can't be supported or used, thus is dies. And manga states the same logic for Kakuzu, in order to defeat him.

What? I hope you know that what you are saying doesn't make sense here. No heart supporting the body means that the body can't be used, obviously, because no heart=death. How does this impact what has been stated here? The bold is also based on nothing. The chakra network isn't supported by the heart. What you are saying here is that no heart=death, but that doesn't matter.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

Naruto and Sasuke is a terrible example. Sasuke had to match Naruto's chakra amount because Naruto's Fuuton is a Fuuton w/ a Rasengan in the middle of it. By matching the chakra the Rasengan is allowed to explode and create a larger flame. That didn't happen w/ Enton and COFRS. That is completely irrelevant with normal Katon and Fuuton. Katon eats Fuuton and gets stronger. Databook states that Katon+Fuuton is Zukkoku+Kakuzu's Fuuton, which is Atsugai.

That is a perfect example because Katon mask had to match the Futon Mask chakra.

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. <= And the DB never states the bold at all. It said it needed the priorities of wind nature, not priority of a specific wind jutsu via Atsugai.

What? I hope you know that what you are saying doesn't make sense here. No heart supporting the body means that the body can't be used, obviously, because no heart=death. How does this impact what has been stated here? The bold is also based on nothing. The chakra network isn't supported by the heart. What you are saying here is that no heart=death, but that doesn't matter.

This is by the fact that you dont think the Mask are independent. Only in "moving". But should be refuted by the fact that they can still operate when Kakuzu is dead. Above rebuttal says they can still use their alternation without Kakuzu, and moving by themselves shows they have to manipulate chakra because thats how operating Jingou works.

Not sure which one of us is making sense then. Because yes obviously no heart=death. How does it also not relate to Jingou functioning without it if the chakra network(Jingou) doesnt need the heart?

Elaborate so I'll get it

 

[sayian]

Where do I begin...? I'll start on portrayal. ToshiZO outlined it perfectly. Everyone who agrees with Itachi's victory can't describe because they don't know it. Kisame was manhandled by Gai throughout the manga and Kakuzu manhandled Kakashi, who is portrayed superior to Gai throughout the manga; simply by corresponding these points, author portrays Kakuzu as the superior character than Kisame, because of their performance against a selected character. One could raise a point on the fighting style advantage Gai had on Kisame, on the face of portrayal, this is invalid. I feel portrayal is quite irrelevant to bring up here, because feats speak greater volume.

I visualize the double standard here too. Because Kakuzu isn't a popular character in the general Naruto forum, people will disagree the eye contact avoidance strategy would work, yet in other match-ups where Itachi is pinned against a much more popular character, people will agree the eye contact avoidance strategy would work, despite the identical reasoning behind both instances. So far, I don't see what any Genjutsu Kakuzu can be caught by and be affected by. Someone who fight Hashirama and survived wouldn't be caught by Genjutsu's; even assuming he ever does, his anatomy should nullify the effect or heart monsters negate it via partner method.

3T Itachi lost to Kakashi and Kakashi lost to Kakuzu. We can figure out who wins, then.

100% agree. kakashi w/ naruto's help beat a 30% powered body double 3t itachi is very impressive *slow claps*

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[KidGamer65]

That is a perfect example because Katon mask had to match the Futon Mask chakra.

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. <= And the DB never states the bold at all. It said it needed the priorities of wind nature, not priority of a specific wind jutsu via Atsugai.





This is by the fact that you dont think the Mask are independent. Only in "moving". But should be refuted by the fact that they can still operate when Kakuzu is dead. Above rebuttal says they can still use their alternation without Kakuzu, and moving by themselves shows they have to manipulate chakra because thats how operating Jingou works.

Not sure which one of us is making sense then. Because yes obviously no heart=death. How does it also not relate to Jingou functioning without it if the chakra network(Jingou) doesnt need the heart?

Elaborate so I'll get it

Again. What you are saying makes no sense and now you are simply making stuff up. Not sure why that seems to be the go to approach for argumentation these days. You don't need to match chakra amount in this scenario. Katon eats Fuuton and grows stronger. Matching chakra doesn't increase the potency or size of the flames nor does that DB scan state it so I'm not sure why you linked that. :lol

DB states that Katon+Fuuton is Zukkoku+Fuuton. Kakuzu has shown no generic Fuuton or nature transformation at all. His Fuuton is Atsugai. Him being able to alter the size and power doesn't matter.

Bold doesn't refute it because chakra manipulation and mobility are two completely different things, the above rebuttal also doesn't say that they can use their nature releases without Kakuzu as the only scans of him using said nature releases are when he's merged his bodies with said masks. Thus they are not independent.

I'm going to repeat this again. Removing the heart causing a disruption in chakra is based on nothing. The only way that'd be the case is if Kakuzu actually died, but he doesn't die instantly after removing said heart. The heart itself doesn't power the chakra network like Zexion tried to argue so that is irrelevant to bring up. And no Jiongu is not the chakra network nor is it synonymous with the chakra network. The masks bodies not being able to function without a heart is because they died. Nothing more, nothing less.

Can you guys stop making assumptions now?

This is all me just assuming he can switch hearts at will, cause I've yet to see evidence from you guys that he can.

 

[Forbidden Technique]

lol @ mind control, didn't know 3T Itachi had Koto, his genjutsu while excellent has shown nothing but diversion and paralysis.

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[Brother Numpsay]

Again. What you are saying makes no sense and now you are simply making stuff up. Not sure why that seems to be the go to approach for argumentation these days.

Based on your ignorance.

You don't need to match chakra amount in this scenario.

If Kakuzu wants his Katon to have sufficient explosive combustion force then yes you do.

Katon eats Fuuton and grows stronger.

Facts.

Matching chakra doesn't increase the potency or size of the flames nor does that DB scan state it so I'm not sure why you linked that. :lol

You outright stated that matching chakra doesnt increase the potency when feats and DB implies the flames becoming tenser? Ok Im not making sense.

Never said matching chakra combo increases the size of the flames. I said it makes it stronger based on what the priorities give. Your analogy is keeping mixed up based on our views of Katon+Futon and Zukkoku+Atsugai

DB states that Katon+Fuuton is Zukkoku+Fuuton. Kakuzu has shown no generic Fuuton or nature transformation at all. His Fuuton is Atsugai. Him being able to alter the size and power doesn't matter.

I make stuff up? Look at @Bold/underline. DB states no where. You made that up. DB outright states the Zukkoko is a fireball that becomes a raging firestorm from ground up. And becomes stronger with wind properties, by adding both intensity and explosive combustion force. So thats what it could in context, if we ever saw it. His Futon jutsu is Atsugai as it was implied in DB, first sentence. It doesnt so why bring up something that isnt my point?

Bold doesn't refute it because chakra manipulation and mobility are two completely different things, the above rebuttal also doesn't say that they can use their nature releases without Kakuzu as the only scans of him using said nature releases are when he's merged his bodies with said masks. Thus they are not independent.

Obviously its two different things but in context chakra manipulation is necessary for them since there whole entire body structure is Jingou.@Bold

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Shown not merged

I'm going to repeat this again. Removing the heart causing a disruption in chakra is based on nothing. The only way that'd be the case is if Kakuzu actually died, but he doesn't die instantly after removing said heart.

I can agree on that

The heart itself doesn't power the chakra network like Zexion tried to argue so that is irrelevant to bring up.

I can agree that it doesn't power up Kakuzu.

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And no Jiongu is not the chakra network nor is it synonymous with the chakra network.

Jingou is Kakuzu entire inner coil/system is it not? Explain to me how Sasori's chakra network works since the same logic can be applied here.

This is all me just assuming he can switch hearts at will, cause I've yet to see evidence from you guys that he can.

Are you serious kid? The dude can re arrange his body, and Mask position, puke out and re enter a heart from his arm? But I need to prove to you that he can switch hearts at will?

 

[KidGamer65]

Based on your ignorance.

No, based on the Manga.

If Kakuzu wants his Katon to have sufficient explosive combustion force then yes you do.

You outright stated that matching chakra doesnt increase the potency when feats and DB implies the flames becoming tenser? Ok Im not making sense.

READ what you are posting. The DB doesn't say that matching Fuuton w/ Katon=Hotter flame. The DB states that when combined with wind it becomes more intense. Period. Mentions literally nothing about size or chakra amount. Fuuton itself increases the potency regardless of the amount matching that of the flame.

Never said matching chakra combo increases the size of the flames. I said it makes it stronger based on what the priorities give. Your analogy is keeping mixed up based on our views of Katon+Futon and Zukkoku+Atsugai

No, it doesn't. Based on nothing. Try arguing with actual fact and not baseless assumption sometime. I hear it works wonders.

I make stuff up? Look at @Bold/underline. DB states no where. You made that up. DB outright states the Zukkoko is a fireball that becomes a raging firestorm from ground up. And becomes stronger with wind properties, by adding both intensity and explosive combustion force. So thats what it could in context, if we ever saw it. His Futon jutsu is Atsugai as it was implied in DB, first sentence. It doesnt so why bring up something that isnt my point?

What are you talking about? Did I not just post a DB entry? The DB states that Zukkoku can be enhanced when mixed with Fuuton. That is blatantly describing what Kakuzu did in the Manga just like all databook entries do. So again, stop making things up.

Obviously its two different things but in context chakra manipulation is necessary for them since there whole entire body structure is Jingou.@Bold

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Shown not merged

But the main point is they are two different things. Being able to move and being able to mold chakra on their own are two different claims, and you can't support the latter.

And that's an instance where he was either off panel when he used the jutsu, or where he used a hand sign. Thus irrelevant to your argument.

I can agree that it doesn't power up Kakuzu.

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It's not a separate force of chakra. "Chakra" refers to the chakra nature inside said hearts. Nothing more, nothing less. W

Jingou is Kakuzu entire inner coil/system is it not? Explain to me how Sasori's chakra network works since the same logic can be applied here.

No. Jiongu are threads controlled by his chakra. My god where are you getting this nonsense from? His chakra network is a completely separate thing from his threads. Sasori is irrelevant. Sasori is not Kakuzu. The logic is not the same. He is a human puppet with only a core for his center. Kakuzu simply has threads inside of his body.

Are you serious kid? The dude can re arrange his body, and Mask position, puke out and re enter a heart from his arm? But I need to prove to you that he can switch hearts at will?

None of those are the same thing as him taking the heart currently sustaining his life and switching it. So yes. Get some evidence or simply don't make the claim.