[VS] Kaku vs Jabra

[ToshiZO]

It does increases attack speed. [

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] And I gave you proofs showing that in ample of instances in which he tried approaching Sanji to attack him and get attacked instead. He has no other choice as all of his attacks are close to mid range ones.

he's not saying he gained attacking speed, that's one of the most misinterpreted panels, he is saying in addition to his own attacking speed it gains the DC.

He does have other choices, he takes to the air and Sanji can't reach him. Then he starts firing off ryankyaku.

Different levels of it? What? Lucci made it clear: Stronger Doriki will yield a stronger Tekkai. Doesn't matter if Jabra has a hundred different levels, his strongest Tekkai will be weaker than anyone with a higher Doriki's Tekkai.

Even if the strongest part of his body is his neck(It's actually most likely his legs, since giraffes have powerful legs and his specialty was Rankyaku), it doesn't change that it was Zoro's entire body versus Kaku's neck alone. I'm not assuming anything, we've seen that when Kaku was throwing his entire body at Zoro, he was forcing Zoro backwards.

So does Zoro and Sanji have stronger tekkai then Kaku as well? Cause Douriki measures physical strength, and they were stronger than Kaku and Jyabura respectively. Ofcourse not because they have not trained in that.

With a 20 douriki difference if Jyabura focused his training much more on his tekkai, there is absolutely nothing to say that his tekkai can't be stronger.

That would be like saying Zoro's kicks are stronger than Sanji's just because overall Zoro is physically stronger (which is what Douriki measures), terrible logic.

You'd have a point if the difference was immense.

 

[A v i]

he's not saying he gained attacking speed, that's one of the most misinterpreted panels, he is saying in addition to his own attacking speed it gains the DC.

He does have other choices, he takes to the air and Sanji can't reach him. Then he starts firing off ryankyaku.

Jyabra couldn't even notice the attack until he was actually hit but he could see the incoming attack in all previous cases when he was attacked from front.[

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] [

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]As a sing of this you can always see his hand being near attacked area but when attacked by DJ his hands didn't even move an inch.[

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] If that's not a sign of increase in speed, I don't know what it is. And how do you think the kick created enough force to break his ribs without any increase in speed?

His Rankyaku was easily avoided by Sanji and that's not how Jyabra actually fights. Once again you were already shown the panels of Jyabra resorting to get near Sanji, in order to attack him despite already having a taste of Sanji's kicks which proves your point wrong. Jyabra is a close- mid ranged fighter so he'll be eventually be forced to get near his opponent which'd be his downfall.

So does Zoro and Sanji have stronger tekkai then Kaku as well? Cause Douriki measures physical strength, and they were stronger than Kaku and Jyabura respectively. Ofcourse not because they have not trained in that.

With a 20 douriki difference if Jyabura focused his training much more on his tekkai, there is absolutely nothing to say that his tekkai can't be stronger.

That would be like saying Zoro's kicks are stronger than Sanji's just because overall Zoro is physically stronger (which is what Douriki measures), terrible logic.

You'd have a point if the difference was immense.

Except that there is no implication in manga that Jyabra is trained to make his tekkai stronger. And there is no statement from manga suggesting that stronger people should be able to kick harder where as it was directly implied by Lucci that hardness of tekkai is determined by level of ones douriki. Kaku from what we know have stronger tekkai when Jyabra has better mastery of it.

 

[ToshiZO]

Jyabra couldn't even notice the attack until he was actually hit but he could see the incoming attack in all previous cases when he was attacked from front.[

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] [

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]As a sing of this you can always see his hand being near attacked area but when attacked by DJ his hands didn't even move an inch.[

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] If that's not a sign of increase in speed, I don't know what it is. And how do you think the kick created enough force to break his ribs without any increase in speed?

His Rankyaku was easily avoided by Sanji and that's not how Jyabra actually fights. Once again you were already shown the panels of Jyabra resorting to get near Sanji, in order to attack him despite already having a taste of Sanji's kicks which proves your point wrong. Jyabra is a close- mid ranged fighter so he'll be eventually be forced to get near his opponent which'd be his downfall.

yet he completely and utterly dodged Sanji's second kick despite, running towards it.

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he was more in awe after seeing his leg on fire the first time. And its not the first time Jyabura took a hit to later resort to dodging.

How did the kick create enough force? It burnt right through Jyabura so the impact of Sanji's kick was not blocked off by Tekkai. Jyabura said it himself it burnt right down to his bone, Sanji's kicks strength did the rest.

As for the second part you leave that up for Jyabura to decide. One Piece is a story thus just like anywhere else it involves PIS and CIS. The right thing to do in

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situation would be to fire off a Ryankyaku but Jyabura got too comfortable thinking Sanji was completely vulnerable.

Except that there is no implication in manga that Jyabra is trained to make his tekkai stronger. And there is no statement from manga suggesting that stronger people should be able to kick harder where as it was directly implied by Lucci that hardness of tekkai is determined by level of ones douriki. Kaku from what we know have stronger tekkai when Jyabra has better mastery of it.

that makes zero sense. Lucci simply said his physical strength was multiple times his fellow CP9, member thus Franky's punch which affected the other member doesn't even have to affect Lucci. I don't know why you guys are treating Douriki like its some special skill. It stands for physical strength. If you are multiple times stronger than someone else you are gonna have a much easier time dealing with attacks than the other person. Real simple.

And I'm not here to prove Jyabura spends more time training with his tekkai, Im saying it is definitely not set in stone that Kaku's tekkai and everything is stronger than Jyabura's. And IF anybody does want to talk about tekkai being stronger, it would be more logical to think of Jaybura's as that is his specialty, one can definitely conclude he focused on his tekkai much more than the other aspects of Rokushiki, he's incorporated that into his main fighting style.

 

[A v i]

yet he completely and utterly dodged Sanji's second kick despite, running towards it.

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he was more in awe after seeing his leg on fire the first time. And its not the first time Jyabura took a hit to later resort to dodging.

How did the kick create enough force? It burnt right through Jyabura so the impact of Sanji's kick was not blocked off by Tekkai. Jyabura said it himself it burnt right down to his bone, Sanji's kicks strength did the rest.

As for the second part you leave that up for Jyabura to decide. One Piece is a story thus just like anywhere else it involves PIS and CIS. The right thing to do in

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situation would be to fire off a Ryankyaku but Jyabura got too comfortable thinking Sanji was completely vulnerable.

Are you seriously using a panel of Sanji getting dodged when he was afloat to justify your argument? Sanji in the middle air would be nowhere near as fast he'd normally be on land. So that's a poor argument you got there. Even if we were to assume that heat is the main reason which allowed him to get past tekkai, it's up to the force of kick to cause the real damage. But his ribs weren't broken even when he took the attacks with no defense so I doubt the ribs were broken entirely because the heat helped him to easily bypass his tekkai. Further more, none of his kicks were strong enough sent him flying as far but the DJ did sent him quite far away. Not to mention the fact that he was able to deflect a bazooka from Oars which again is not possible with heat support.

I know that Jyabra is a kind of fighter that'd change the way he fights based on the situation but in the end he can't pull off something he couldn't normally do no matter the kind of opponent he fights. He's not as well versed as you're making him out to be. From what we've seen his Rankyaku gets dodged quite easily so he'll be forced to get near Sanji in the end.

that makes zero sense. Lucci simply said his physical strength was multiple times his fellow CP9, member thus Franky's punch which affected the other member doesn't even have to affect Lucci. I don't know why you guys are treating Douriki like its some special skill. It stands for physical strength. If you are multiple times stronger than someone else you are gonna have a much easier time dealing with attacks than the other person. Real simple.

And I'm not here to prove Jyabura spends more time training with his tekkai, Im saying it is definitely not set in stone that Kaku's tekkai and everything is stronger than Jyabura's. And IF anybody does want to talk about tekkai being stronger, it would be more logical to think of Jaybura's as that is his specialty, one can definitely conclude he focused on his tekkai much more than the other aspects of Rokushiki, he's incorporated that into his main fighting style.

It makes perfect sense. Aren't you kind of going against your own logic? You said for yourself that just because one is physically stronger doesn't mean that every aspect of his is stronger than the weaker and you're applying exact opposite logic to Lucci now. Franky's question was about him not being able to break Lucci's tekkai when he was able to get past Fukuros, for which Lucci answered by stating that my douriki is five time of his. He directly implied that his tekkai is nowhere near mine because his douriki is far weaker. If all he wanted to imply is to say that he's stronger than Fukuro, he could simply say that he's far weaker than myself or something along these lines. Douriki is explicitly stated to be an inaccurate method to measure ones true strength by Jyabra for it measures nothing more than ones physical strength. Even then he specifically mentioned it while tekkai is being discussed. It can't be more obvious than this.

 

[ToshiZO]

Are you seriously using a panel of Sanji getting dodged when he was afloat to justify your argument? Sanji in the middle air would be nowhere near as fast he'd normally be on land. So that's a poor argument you got there. Even if we were to assume that heat is the main reason which allowed him to get past tekkai, it's up to the force of kick to cause the real damage. But his ribs weren't broken even when he took the attacks with no defense so I doubt the ribs were broken entirely because the heat helped him to easily bypass his tekkai. Further more, none of his kicks were strong enough sent him flying as far but the DJ did sent him quite far away. Not to mention the fact that he was able to deflect a bazooka from Oars which again is not possible with heat support.

I know that Jyabra is a kind of fighter that'd change the way he fights based on the situation but in the end he can't pull off something he couldn't normally do no matter the kind of opponent he fights. He's not as well versed as you're making him out to be. From what we've seen his Rankyaku gets dodged quite easily so he'll be forced to get near Sanji in the end.





It makes perfect sense. Aren't you kind of going against your own logic? You said for yourself that just because one is physically stronger doesn't mean that every aspect of his is stronger than the weaker and you're applying exact opposite logic to Lucci now. Franky's question was about him not being able to break Lucci's tekkai when he was able to get past Fukuros, for which Lucci answered by stating that my douriki is five time of his. He directly implied that his tekkai is nowhere near mine because his douriki is far weaker. If all he wanted to imply is to say that he's stronger than Fukuro, he could simply say that he's far weaker than myself or something along these lines. Douriki is explicitly stated to be an inaccurate method to measure ones true strength by Jyabra for it measures nothing more than ones physical strength. Even then he specifically mentioned it while tekkai is being discussed. It can't be more obvious than this.

Im not going against my logic at all. Lucci is five times stronger than Fukuro, thats all there is to it. Kaku and Jyabura have a 20 point difference.

Lets compare Zoro to Sanji, Sanji can be stronger than Zoro in some departments despite being physically weaker, because the difference isn't immense.

Now lets compare Zoro to Brook, Robin etc. There is not one single category where Zoro is inferior to anyone outside of the monster trio, because the difference is too significant.

its really simple to understand Douriki is just a measure of physical strength, its just as I suspected you guys are treating it like its some sort of special skill.

As for Jyabura being sent back flying. The flames add more force to Sanji's kicks, they burned through Jyabura's defense and then Sanji's strength did the rest sending him flying back. Jyabura's guard was utterly broken by it, he was pretty much unconscious for a moment when he got hit.

 

[Punk Hazard]

So does Zoro and Sanji have stronger tekkai then Kaku as well? Cause Douriki measures physical strength, and they were stronger than Kaku and Jyabura respectively. Ofcourse not because they have not trained in that.

If they learned Tekkai, theirs would indeed be stronger.

With a 20 douriki difference if Jyabura focused his training much more on his tekkai, there is absolutely nothing to say that his tekkai can't be stronger.

That would be like saying Zoro's kicks are stronger than Sanji's just because overall Zoro is physically stronger (which is what Douriki measures), terrible logic.

You'd have a point if the difference was immense.

No.

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Lucci's higher Doriki yielded a stronger Tekkai, plain and simple. Your analogy fails because Doriki directly impacts overall Rokushiki strength.

 

[ToshiZO]

Lmfao yes just as I suspected, Douriki is being treated like it is different than physical strength.

Zoro is multiple times stronger than Robin. Try punching Robin with a punch, and then try the exact same punch on Zoro and see the difference between how they handle it.

That's all there is to it. Douriki is just a number placed to represent physical strength. Rob Lucci saying his douriki is five times Fukoro's is a well calculated way of saying "I am many times more powerful than Fukoro"

Both trained in tekkai, so obviously the one who is multiple times stronger is gonna have a better tekkai. Now if Jyabura spent all his time training his tekkai with a 20 douriki difference, nobody can say his tekkai still has to be weaker than Kaku's (like for instance Sanji focusing all his training on his legs, therefore Sanji's legs/kicks >>> Zoro's).

two factors have to be met.

1.you have to be comparable in strength
2.what aspect you focused more on

Kaku does not have to have the stronger tekkai because he is slightly physically stronger than Jyabura. I'm not even saying for sure Jyabura has the stronger tekkai, but if you guys are gonna say one has stronger tekkai over the other, it would be more logical to think Jyabura does.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

The thing with Kaku and Jabra's tekkais is that it makes Jabra tougher because he can have it active 24/7. For Kaku, he can only use it to take blows he can't dodge or to prove his durability. When it comes to trading blows, Jabra will be the one doing more damage because not only will tekkai be reducing the damage Jabra takes, Kaku can't use tekkai if he is moving. Its like with Sanji vs Jabra; Sanji would normally do 50 dmg per strike but because of tekkai, he was only doing 30 dmg per strike while Jabra was doing 40.

One more thing, bypassing tekkai is doing damage to a tekkai user but the damage is reduced. Breaking tekkai is rendering the technique completely useless. That's why Kaku said Sanji ALMOST broke Blueno's tekkai on the train. Sanji bypassed it by hurting Blueno but it wasn't broken as it reduced the damage done to the big guy.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Lmfao yes just as I suspected, Douriki is being treated like it is different than physical strength.

Zoro is multiple times stronger than Robin. Try punching Robin with a punch, and then try the exact same punch on Zoro and see the difference between how they handle it.

That's all there is to it. Douriki is just a number placed to represent physical strength. Rob Lucci saying his douriki is five times Fukoro's is a well calculated way of saying "I am many times more powerful than Fukoro"

Both trained in tekkai, so obviously the one who is multiple times stronger is gonna have a better tekkai. Now if Jyabura spent all his time training his tekkai with a 20 douriki difference, nobody can say his tekkai still has to be weaker than Kaku's (like for instance Sanji focusing all his training on his legs, therefore Sanji's legs/kicks >>> Zoro's).

two factors have to be met.

1.you have to be comparable in strength
2.what aspect you focused more on

Kaku does not have to have the stronger tekkai because he is slightly physically stronger than Jyabura. I'm not even saying for sure Jyabura has the stronger tekkai, but if you guys are gonna say one has stronger tekkai over the other, it would be more logical to think Jyabura does.

And that is why Franky could break Chappa-guy's Tekkai and not Lucci's. Rokushiki is a fighting style that revolves around the superhuman condition of their bodies. The stronger their body, the stronger their Rokushiki becomes. The stronger their body, the higher their Rokushiki. Tekkai is just a technique that compacts the muscles to act as an enhanced defense, hence why they can't move. The stronger the body, the stronger the muscles, the higher the Doriki, the stronger the Tekkai.

Shit isn't rocket science while doing brain surgery

 

[ToshiZO]

And that is why Franky could break Chappa-guy's Tekkai and not Lucci's. Rokushiki is a fighting style that revolves around the superhuman condition of their bodies. The stronger their body, the stronger their Rokushiki becomes. The stronger their body, the higher their Rokushiki. Tekkai is just a technique that compacts the muscles to act as an enhanced defense, hence why they can't move. The stronger the body, the stronger the muscles, the higher the Doriki, the stronger the Tekkai.

Shit isn't rocket science while doing brain surgery

thanks for repeating literally the same thing I said and explaining what happened in that page, I couldn't see it myself.

And you completely ignored everything I said in my last reply. Oh well...

 

[Punk Hazard]

thanks for repeating literally the same thing I said and explaining what happened in that page, I couldn't see it myself.

And you completely ignored everything I said in my last reply. Oh well...

Yes, because you lead it up to "You can have a lower Doriki and stronger Tekkai," which is incorrect. Doriki directly influences strength of Rokushiki, whether it's a difference by 1,000,000 or 1.

Rokushiki and Doriki aren't comparable to something like Zoro's leg strength and Sanji's leg strength because Doriki isn't spread out like overall body strength is, it's the direct power level of Rokushiki.

 

[ToshiZO]

Yes, because you lead it up to "You can have a lower Doriki and stronger Tekkai," which is incorrect. Doriki directly influences strength of Rokushiki, whether it's a difference by 1,000,000 or 1.

That you can be stronger in one aspect over a character who is slightly physically stronger than you? Yea that's what I said.

heck we have a prime example of this being incorrect, Kaku who had a much lower douriki than Lucci managed to have the strongest Ryankyaku feat. More proof of this being faulty logic.

Now if that's possible one can only imagine how insignificant 20 douriki is when focusing on one department.

 

[Punk Hazard]

That you can be stronger in one aspect over a character who is slightly physically stronger than you? Yea that's what I said.

heck we have a prime example of this being incorrect, Kaku who had a much lower douriki than Lucci managed to have the strongest Ryankyaku feat. More proof of this being faulty logic.

Now if that's possible one can only imagine how insignificant 20 douriki is when focusing on one department.

That's not how Doriki and Rokushiki work though. It's not like 500 of Kaku's Doriki is towards Shigan, and 800 is towards Rankyaku, etc. Higher Doriki means each of your individual Rokushiki techniques is higher than someone with a lower Doriki level.

Kaku's Rankyaku was never stated to be the strongest, he was simply the most skilled at it and could shape it in ways Lucci couldn't, giving it greater tactical uses. In terms of raw power, Lucci's>Kaku's.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

That you can be stronger in one aspect over a character who is slightly physically stronger than you? Yea that's what I said.

heck we have a prime example of this being incorrect, Kaku who had a much lower douriki than Lucci managed to have the strongest Ryankyaku feat. More proof of this being faulty logic.

Now if that's possible one can only imagine how insignificant 20 douriki is when focusing on one department.

I think you are confusing strength with specialty. Fukorou said he had the best Soru cause his was silent, making it great for stealth killing. Its not the fastest, but the most silent and practical.

Kaku's specialty was Rankyaku and we saw how many techniuqes he had with it. His best one requires prep time and everyone around Kaku dodged it. Hell, Luffy took two point blank rankyakus from Kaku and Kalifa at the same time and only received minor damage. Luffy said that a rankyaku from Leopard Lucci would cut him in half.

 

[ToshiZO]

That's not how Doriki and Rokushiki work though. It's not like 500 of Kaku's Doriki is towards Shigan, and 800 is towards Rankyaku, etc. Higher Doriki means each of your individual Rokushiki techniques is higher than someone with a lower Doriki level.

Kaku's Rankyaku was never stated to be the strongest, he was simply the most skilled at it and could shape it in ways Lucci couldn't, giving it greater tactical uses. In terms of raw power, Lucci's>Kaku's.

So now we are making feats up? Kaku's was clearly shown to have the most power behind his.

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And I didn't say its distributed like that. Its how you apply your overall physical strength.

Lets say Sanji has a 3500 douriki and Zoro a 3600 douriki. If Sanji focuses more on one aspect of his body he can potentially be Zoro's superior. Like I don't get why this is so hard to understand.

I think you are confusing strength with specialty. Fukorou said he had the best Soru cause his was silent, making it great for stealth killing. Its not the fastest, but the most silent and practical.

Kaku's specialty was Rankyaku and we saw how many techniuqes he had with it. His best one requires prep time and everyone around Kaku dodged it. Hell, Luffy took two point blank rankyakus from Kaku and Kalifa at the same time and only received minor damage. Luffy said that a rankyaku from Leopard Lucci would cut him in half.

Kaku's amanedachii > any Ryankyaku Lucci has shown.

Nothing else to say.

 

[Punk Hazard]

So now we are making feats up? Kaku's was clearly shown to have the most power behind his.

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And I didn't say its distributed like that. Its how you apply your overall physical strength.

Lets say Sanji has a 3500 douriki and Zoro a 3600 douriki. If Sanji focuses more on one aspect of his body he can potentially be Zoro's superior. Like I don't get why this is so hard to understand.




Kaku's amanedachii > any Ryankyaku Lucci has shown.

Nothing else to say.

I don't get why it's so hard to understand that having a higher Doriki means all of your Rokushiki techniques will be stronger.

Any Rankyaku user could accomplish that if their Doriki was at least as high as Kaku's and they did the spinning. Kaku was just the most skilled at Rankyaku, so he figured it out.

 

[ToshiZO]

Yes, because you lead it up to "You can have a lower Doriki and stronger Tekkai," which is incorrect. Doriki directly influences strength of Rokushiki, whether it's a difference by 1,000,000 or 1.

Rokushiki and Doriki aren't comparable to something like Zoro's leg strength and Sanji's leg strength because Doriki isn't spread out like overall body strength is, it's the direct power level of Rokushiki.

No it is not. Now I know why this was so hard for you to understand. Everyone has a calculable Douriki, 10 douriki was a regular fodders douriki. It doesn't have anything to do with Rokushiki. Douriki is physical strength.

From now on just substitute the phrase physical strength for Douriki everytime you type, and then you might understand.

Douriki isn't some magical thing reserved for only CP9 members.

I don't get why it's so hard to understand that having a higher Doriki means all of your Rokushiki techniques will be stronger.

Any Rankyaku user could accomplish that if their Doriki was at least as high as Kaku's and they did the spinning. Kaku was just the most skilled at Rankyaku, so he figured it out.

I'm not gonna start assuming and handing out feats when they weren't shown.

You're basically telling me Jyabura would be able to replicate Kaku's ryankyaku feat more or less.

 

[Punk Hazard]

No it is not. Now I know why this was so hard for you to understand. Everyone has a calculable Douriki, 10 douriki was a regular fodders douriki. It doesn't have anything to do with Rokushiki. Douriki is physical strength.

From now on just substitute the phrase physical strength for Douriki everytime you type, and then you might understand.

And the stronger you are physically, the greater each of your Rokushiki are. Jabra's Tekkai wasn't even ever stated to be the strongest, just that he was the only one who could move with it.

 

[Vandenre1ch]

So now we are making feats up? Kaku's was clearly shown to have the most power behind his.

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And I didn't say its distributed like that. Its how you apply your overall physical strength.

Lets say Sanji has a 3500 douriki and Zoro a 3600 douriki. If Sanji focuses more on one aspect of his body he can potentially be Zoro's superior. Like I don't get why this is so hard to understand.




Kaku's amanedachii > any Ryankyaku Lucci has shown.

Nothing else to say.

It is also the slowest, easiest to dodge and a technique unigue to Kaku because of his giraffe legs spinning to charge up the strength. That move is the only move Kaku has that is stronger than Lucci's rankyaku and isn't practical. All of Lucci's rankyakus is better than Kaku's in speed and power minus that amedachi, which is so slow that its not hitting anybody.

 

[ToshiZO]

And the stronger you are physically, the greater each of your Rokushiki are.

Lol stubborn as ever.

It is also the slowest, easiest to dodge and a technique unigue to Kaku because of his giraffe legs spinning to charge up the strength. That move is the only move Kaku has that is stronger than Lucci's rankyaku and isn't practical. All of Lucci's rankyakus is better than Kaku's in speed and power minus that amedachi, which is so slow that its not hitting anybody.

I agree with that. That is not why I brought it up.