Keep Oro pressured, yes. And 10,000 snakes is only something Orochimaru has used from a distance. He never used it in a CQC fight, and a problem that would arise from trying that is it could open him up to get hit while trying to perform it. While sure, unless Kakashi pierces the brain, he can use oral rebirth, it still keeps him from using anything.
Can those 10,000 snakes break through the surface of the ground by themselves? Orochimaru could break through for them, but that's going to notify Kakashi of where they're coming from.
Mayfly avoids, or
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(as you can see several can be created at a time just by moulding chakra and raising his hand somewhat, and the process of making them is very quick being only one panel) redirect any initial blitz or pressure from Orochimaru at the start of the match. Wind Release: Great Breakthrough deals with projectile lightning attacks.
Right, 10,000 snakes obviously isn't viable at close range against Kakashi's speed and precog, but I never said that he'd use it at close range. If you note the distance between Orochimaru and 4 Tailed Kyuubi [
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]-[
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], and the volume of snakes that were produced and reached Kyuubi's position in just a matter of seconds [
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], the technique is more than fast enough to be used from a range of around 15 meters, either right in front of Kakashi who could be dealing with parasite clones, or from another angle if Orochimaru uses Mayfly or Hiding like a Mole to remove himself from Kakashi's vision, and resurfaces somewhere else. Not to mention that these snakes can be called forth from underground since snakes can travel freely and create passageways from beneath the earth, and they'll have extra space to work with from the beginning with Hiding like a Mole. The blades protruding from their mouths actually make it easier to break through as well so Oro doesn't need to do anything except activate the jutsu. Anyways, after the 10,000 snakes are called, Orochimaru can easily travel to a different spot of the battlefield and summon giant snakes while Kakashi does what he does to counter.
I've already demonstrated how fast Kakashi is when using raiden. There's not going to be time for the snakes to hit him while he's using that, he moves at roughly the speed Gai is punching when using Asa Kujaku, which is fast enough to set the air on fire. And it's not like throwing raiton enhanced kunai takes Kakashi forever, or something..he can fire off several in succession if need be.
You're underestimating the amount of snakes Orochimaru can summon at a time. There's four snakes that he can summon at a given time actually, if you take a look at this
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. Now these snakes aren't going to be barging at Kakashi in a straight line, practically allowing him to slice them all at once. They can separate and attack from different angles, or go underground to throw him off. This isn't counting the 10,000 snakes that Kakashi has no way of taking all out at one time, or Orochimaru and his parasitic or shadow clones themselves that will be looking to strike Kakashi while he's dealing with the snake summons.
Kakashi has used many methods for bunshin tactics. From getting hit and hiding in the rubble/dust/etc like he did vs Pain, just doing it out in the open and Zabuza not even noticing despite being an expert in operating in the mist, and then there's the doton methods you mentioned. He's not restrained just to those methods, though.
I'm aware of his methods, but they won't exactly be viable in front of an horde of snakes, both giant or small, and some wielding blades from their mouths, not to mention what Orochimaru can do himself to give Kakashi a harder time.
The raikiri wolf, as fast as it is, should be able to take out the majority of the 10,000 snakes. They were not very durable at all, 4 tailed Naruto took every single one of them out by just creating a shockwave. I covered the raiden issue. And yes the boss snakes can go underground, but Kakashi will be be prepared for that as he's going to see them do it.
I'm aware of its speed, but no way is it taking out a majority of the 10,000 snakes when we consider and compare their respective ranges. I'll post another screenshot for convenience. KN4 is larger than a human and the raikiri wolf is a human sized attack, yet the
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. Don't compare raiton wolf to that shockwave created by KN4; clearly the former attack's AoE or compressed attack strength aren't close to the latter attack. They don't all have to go underground, some can stay above ground while others attack from below. The smaller snakes can further trick Kakashi by traveling beyond his relative position above ground and come from behind.
Did I bring up suiton in my post? I don't recall doing it, but I'm too lazy to go back and check. Although it is a good deterrent for the 10,000 snakes, but it's not necessary.
No you didn't, but I covered it anyway just in case if you did.
He took on an old Hiruzen that was dying using the Enma staff..that's not as impressive as what Kakashi has done in CQC. The Kusanagi is a very dangerous weapon, but Kakashi's greater skill overcomes that.
It is impressive when we consider the
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if you looked at the scan again, and the fact that the staff is probably a slightly superior weapon at close range to the sword of Kusanagi due to its overall versatility. There's also the fact that Orochimaru wasn't even attacking him, he was just effortlessly parrying the staff's attacks, and that staff is clearly a much better weapon than the Kubikiri or any other weapon pertaining to the 7 Shinobi Swordsmen save for the Samehada for that matter.
Not exactly, because the Kusanagi is a weapon on a much higher level than any of the swords pertaining to the 7 Swordsmen of the Mist excluding the Samehada of course. Kakashi isn't matching it at close range when we consider the sword's durability, which would probably break through a standard kunai with no difficulty, and crack the Kubikiri even with raiton flow enhancing it; at the end of the day it's still just a metal sword.
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, and I'm sure you know better than anyone that the Adamantine staff is as hard as diamond. There's also the option of using Oral Rebirth and extending the sword at close range, which you questioned, but I'll explain further below.
I didn't say the kubikiribocho is better than the Kusanagi, I'm saying it gives Kakashi an option to combat it. He doesn't have to break the kusanagi, he just has to overwhelm Orochimaru with his greater skill.
I explained why he wouldn't get overpowered. Kusanagi would break through the Kubikiri, a sword that is leagues below itself and the Adamantine staff in durability.
And Kakashi has no issues with handling that sword, either. He was finding other swordsmen with it and winning. He's capable of holding it with one hand:
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And cutting through people with it, using his non-dominant hand:
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Oro may not want to engage Kakashi in CQC, but Kakashi would make him. It's not like Orochimaru is going to say "stay away from me until I summon my boss snakes" and Kakashi is going to listen to him.
I already explained how Orochimaru can create distractions and misdirections via snakes, shadow clones, and parasitic clones, as well as quickly travel to another spot of the battlefield via Mayfly.
Even if Kakashi were to get tagged, what's the spore supposed to do to him, and how exactly is it supposed to survive raiton being surged through it?
The spores have no chakra of their own, and Kakashi can't detect them at the point of being tagged, since dojutsu can't discern them until, well, they actually start growing. The raiton flow would actually make the spores grow in size, since they grow by absorbing its victim's chakra. Orochimaru can also take advantage of the growing spores by
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which would practically put him at Orochimaru's mercy.
Sharingan precog added to Kakashi's overall superior skill in CQC allows him to combat those things. Kakashi reacted to Kakuzu's mask in point blank range while still engaging Hidan, and that was a much weaker version of Kakashi/without Pain and War Arc feats.
He can react to whatever is in front of him, but it'll be tough for him to combat a horde of snakes, Orochimaru's clones, and Orochimaru himself all attacking from different angles. Not to mention the Kusanagi blade,
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and force Kakashi to dodge and lead him into another attack from another clone or snake + the fact that the blade can levitate and strike Kakashi by Orochimaru's finger movements. Then we also factor in the spores and the binding spell that can be applied to him... which would pretty much be a game over for Kakashi if he gets hit. I'll say it again; Kakashi is overall better in CQC, but against Orochimaru it won't be a problem for the latter because of his unique and versatile skillset.
Uhm, what in those first two scans is supposed to be impressive? We have no reference point for how quickly Orochimaru reached him, and Kabuto was there as well, with just a 3.5 speed score in the databook, if we're going off of that.
The fact that he was no where near where Sasuke was, and that the last time we saw him was in one of the
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, who Orochimaru left in another one of those rooms in a different underground hallway clearly means that he was able to cover a decent amount of distance very quickly. Kabuto obviously appeared after Orochimaru did, and it should have actually been easier for Kabuto to make that distance since he was outside... yet Orochimaru got there before he did.
I'm also confused as to how the 2nd scenario is supposed to be a speed feat as well. We weren't even shown what happened, and the only impressive thing on that panel is he knocked Hiruzen down, who was reluctant to fight him anyway.
It was clearly shown what happened. Orochimaru was in front of Hiruzen and the two anbu guys, yet Orochimaru dissapeared and reappeared seemingly in an instant behind them, clearly surprising the three Konoha nin
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. Hiruzen being reluctant to fight him isn't really relevant to this point, and he fell down because he lost sight and track of Oro's position, as did the anbu guys, and he probably shoved Enma and Hiruzen out of the way, which actually makes that feat more impressive because he had time to push those two guys down whilst engaging in a high speed movement from Point A to Point B.
Then we also have slithering snake mode which enhances Orochimaru's foot speed as well, should he find it necessary or viable to use it.
You left out his greatest speed feat in the entire manga, which was when he switched to that half snake/half human form vs 4 tails and covered ground pretty quickly, but even that still isn't great enough to match what Kabuto did.
That wasn't his greatest speed feat at all. There's actually another speed feat, using shunshin rather than using his slithering snake mode to increase his footspeed, that took place within that particular scuffle between Konoha and Orochimaru. I'm not really going to use it though since I feel that I already proved my point, plus I get a bit lazy. Kabuto didn't use any SM enhanced speed that Orochimaru isn't capable of matching in base... I mean just take a look at these two scans [
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]-[
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]. This should destroy any notion of Orochimaru not being able to do that himself. Clearly he can execute said Oral Rebirth strategy very quickly, added with slithering snake mode, and can actually strike Kakashi faster by extending both his neck and the Kusanagi blade, which would catch him off guard.
Kakashi's speed is 4.5 in the databook too, for whatever that's worth. And also, "assuming" it was SM enhanced speed? Kabuto was using SM, so yeah, given how quickly he acted(and it's a speed of which he NEVER showed in base, indicated by his 3.5 speed score in the databook), I'm going with SM enhanced speed.
Covered above, Orochimaru can act just as quickly.
Not like Kabuto is a speed demon in SM? He dodge Sasuke's susanoo arrow at close range. Oro has never shown speed like that. So yeah, Kabuto blows him out of the water in speed when using SM.
Kabuto had the benefit of sage mode enhanced perceptions and reactions in that instance, which isn't indicative of his speed. That isn't really a speed feat, more of a reaction feat which isn't shunshin speed or footspeed, so I have no clue why you compared that to the Oral Rebirth example and Orochimaru's own speed feats. Maybe if we saw Sage Kabuto shunshin at full speed from point A to point B in a certain circumstance could we say that his shunshin speed blows Orochimaru's shunshin speed out of the water... but he never did so. The speed he used in that Oral Rebirth was his foot speed, and clearly wasn't anything that Orochimaru cannot match using his own footspeed, or perhaps taking advantage of his extnded neck as well to make the result quicker.
Uh, how did you get this from my post?
I said nothing about Kakashi doing it right off the bat. I said that's how he can kill Orochimaru. If you're implying that Kakashi isn't good enough to eventually find an opening in CQC to get a shot on his head, then I dunno what else to tell you, the manga obviously disagrees. No, he's not going to do it right off the bat, but he is capable of pulling it off. Kakashi is going to do everything he can to force it to be CQC, and with his speed, he can press Orochimaru.
So Kakashi, who is going to be facing the horde of snakes and Orochimaru clones is going to be in a position to kill or attack the real Orochimaru somehow, let alone pressure him into CQC with everything that Orochimaru can do as I have explained? While Kakashi is screwing around with the clones and snakes, Orochimaru could simply go
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from behind.
Bolded: I didn't imply such, and if you're implying that Orochimaru isn't fast enough to react to his attacks, then the manga disagrees with you as well. Kakashi is faster by feats, but not fast enough to completely outclass Orochimaru who is pretty fast himself as I have shown; the latter will be able to keep up if it ever comes to that.
What am I supposed to do for Hydra? I keep waiting for either you or beans to explain to me how I'm supposed to grant Hydra feats that it doesn't have. I've acknowledged it can bash it's head in to something. I've acknowledged Orochimaru can use kusanagi from it. I've acknowledged that it's big. The things you just compared it to make absolutely no sense. Kisame has summoned thousands of sharks(or were those just water sharks he used to conceal the real one? I don't remember) Even if they weren't real sharks, I dunno why it matters if Kisame can summon more real sharks or not..real sharks do nothing for him that the water sharks don't, expect being physically there/able to use it's mouth to carry something. Using one clone, and assuming you have the chakra left to create more, means you can create more clones. Daikodan has the ability to absorb chakra so any chakra technique used on it would fail. We're told that in the manga and in the databooks for each of these scenarios. It just happened to meet it's worse possible matchup in a taijutsu user as skilled as Gai.You see the difference between those scenarios and the Hydra is that they're common sense and explained/shown in the manga. Nothing is said in the databooks about what else Hydra can do. Nothing is said in the manga about what else hydra can do. I mean I don't know what attacks you want me to give to it. It got beat in a couple of panels, showed nothing of note, and was never given any proper follow up in the databook or manga. Completely different scenario than those you listed.
I compared it to those things because your argument follows the same patterns as those arguments, which is basically the idea if X doesn't have feats outside of its stated capabilities, then X is weak/can't be done/can't be used to defeat the opponent. This is completely false on your part, and I won't say anymore on the subject matter because the Hydra, to be honest, would be overkill against Kakashi without Kamui. That's all I'm going to say.
You're right, I have no proof Zetsu Oro can't use it. I'm giving him the ability to in this fight/not taking it from him. I just question if he could or not. And the argument for the snakes and the kusanagi is the same as it would be for hydra..he apparently didn't deem those techniques great enough to fight the buddha. I mean the likely explanation is Kishi is a shit writer and can't come up with anything good. But either way, that's not something I'm basing my argument on(as should be noted by the fact that I'm entertaining debates including it), just a question I'm raising.
I'm really at a loss here for what you want me to do regarding Hydra.
Somewhat agree with Kishi screwing up, but lets be fair; his editors, advisors, and Shounen Jump (basically all the important and relevant business interests) probably all had a hand in getting Kishi to crank out a half assed story at a much faster rate than he would have wanted to. I already said what I was going to say on the Hydra, won't be saying anything else on it because frankly, it's not part of my argument.
