Sorry for not responding last night, had to go to bed.
Everything is a feat. If it's bigger than Susanoo, Kakashi will have more trouble putting it down. Lol Kakashi has never scratched a full powered bijuu, and he took out the Gedo Mazou's arm due to kamui.
My point is Kakashi isn't unfamiliar with fighting gigantic opponents.
Maybe it can't do that. By portrayal, it should be able to since both are the power of the white snake, and 8 branches is stronger than Orochimaru's true form. At any rate, Orochimaru is also present and can use his true form.
Wouldn't he need to leave the 8 Branches altogether to do that? Dunno if it would stay formed that way...who knows.
This "zero feats" argument is getting old, and it's not doing you any favors. There are eight heads, and they can attack in different directions, and their attacks have a large AoE, which makes dodging more difficulty. The best Kakashi can do is dance around the heads, and he can't even do that forever. When Kakashi targets one head, the others attack.
I'll just address the "zero feats" thing here since you bring it up several times.
1. I don't consider being big or smashing your head in to something to be some kind of feat..I mean I guess by literal definition it is, but I mean doing techniques/moves that actually pose a threat to an opponent of Kakashi's caliber. The vast majority of kage level ninja are fast enough to dodge it.
2. You bring up later in your post that just because it has no panel time doesn't mean it's weak. And I agree 100%. The issue with debating with it, though, is there's nothing to debate with, other than kusanagi, it being big, and it bashing it's heads in to something. Does it have more abilities than that? Yes, I imagine it does. Did it ever show them, though? No. So how can I even begin to speculate on what it does?
I'd love to be able to give people who didn't show anything all sorts of cool techniques that they, theoretically, or logically, would be able to use, but I don't have that ability. That's pretty much writing fan fiction at that point. I would love to give Kakashi access to all sorts of katon and futon techniques given he's confirmed in the databook to be able to use all 7 chakra natures(that's counting yin/yang), but that would just be pulling it out of my ass, and I'm not going to do that.
No, you really didn't. When Kakashi's distracted by getting continuously assaulted by 8 heads, Orochimaru pops out from one of the snake's mouths, or attacks from below the ground with Mayfly, attacking with Kusanagi, which he can not only use to pierce, but also slash...and with Kusanagi's range and the mobility granted to him by a neck extension or a Hydra head...Kakashi's not going to avoid it forever.
How distracted is he supposed to be by these 8 heads? How fast are they? What is their range of motion? Cause I can pull up all kinds of Kakashi speed feats if you need me to, on top of the raiden speed feat I've already show(I know you've questioned that, I'll get to that when I get to that paragraph). But you're limited in showing me the range/speed/maneuverability of the heads. They are connected to the body, so they do have their limitations, they can't go as far out as they want to. What keeps Kakashi from leaving it's range and regrouping?
Again, how is Orochimaru's body leaving the 8 Branches and attacking? Sure, he can attack with Kusanagi from it, but leaving it and using mayfly? How? Isn't his body connected to the snake/dragon/whatever?
Okay, I see what you're doing. You're taking advantage of Hydra's limited panel time and using the "no feats" argument to make your case with Kakashi, a plot-central character with lots of panel time. It got wrecked by Susanoo because of the simple reason that it's much stronger than Hydra, that's it. Does that give Hydra the opportunity to present lots of feats? Nope, does that mean it's weak? Not at all.
Covered above.
Not to mention, Hydra takes Kakashi down with the feats it's already displayed.
C'mon man, that's just ridiculous. You want to argue that Orochimaru fighting with his techniques can do it, I'll entertain that. I do think Kakashi surpassed him, but Orochimaru fighting outside of hydra is still dangerous, I won't deny that. With Kakashi's speed, though, what hydra has showed is not enough.
1. That's not even an impressive range feat.
2. That's assuming all eight heads are just going to charge in at once.
1. Hydra is bigger than that range?
2. Are the heads going to disconnect from the body and somehow dodge the raiden?
If Kakashi makes a clone and attacks with a lightning cable, Hydra just needs to take out either Kakashi or his clone by smashing it with their heads. He can probably take out 1 or 2 heads with this technique, then he gets gang banged by the rest. Kakashi isn't going to be dodging or evading the heads...while he is literally attacking other heads. Or...Orochimaru (or a parasite clone) uses Mayfly to get behind Kakashi, and nails him with Kusanagi.
Again, Kakashi's speed shown with raiden is too great to be struck by the hydra heads. It doesn't have the speed feats to match it. Not when he moves in similar speed as Gai's fist that are going so fast it's causing the air to catch on fire.
Even Orochimaru using a clone, he can't do it quick enough to strike Kakashi before he's already surged forward, cutting through the heads. Orochimaru has the speed feats to escape from the hydra heads before he gets hit too, maybe, but the hydra itself, or managing to pull off a technique with a clone that hits Kakashi? No.
That's not a scan of Asakujaku reaching its opponent. That's a scan of Gai using Asakujaku to clear the poison fog while Kakashi and his clone run over to the chakra arms coming at them and cutting them in half. So, nothing in that scan gives Kakashi the speed to outright blitz all the hydra heads off at once.
Even with my blunder of what Gai was targeting, it doesn't change the speed feat. Gai starts punching the air the second Kakashi lunges forward with raiden, and the amount of punches has barely increased when Kakashi is shown going through the chakra arms. If you don't understand what kind of speed that indicates, I dunno what else to tell you. From the databook:
With speed so high that the friction produces flames
God, and here you go again with "featless." Having few feats does not equal to it being weak. It was portrayed as Orochimaru's strongest jutsu outside of Edo Tensei. Kakashi has surpassed Orochimaru, sure...if you count kamui sniping him at the start as "surpassing" him.
Again, you can bring up portrayal all you want, and it's fine and good. That doesn't grant it any abilities, though. We're not writing fan fiction here, we're debating what characters have actually shown the ability to do.
...Zetsu Oro doesn't even need the Hydra to beat Kakashi either. All he has to do is distract the latter with 10,000 sword wielding snakes and a snake summon or summons [
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]-[
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] that can all go underground and chase Kakashi if he uses Hiding Like a Mole
I've already covered dealing with summons in this thread. And this is also assuming Kakashi just stands there and lets Orochimaru perform summoning after summoning, which is dumb.
I dunno why Kakashi would use hiding like a mole here, but okay?
then nail him with Kusanagi or at the very least plant spores on him after he finds an opening.
Implying Orochimaru has the skill in kenjutsu to match Kakashi, the guy capable of fighting Zabuza, in early part 1 when he was out of shape, with a kunai. Kakashi has the kubikiribocho to match the kusanagi, and his infusing raiton in it would effortlessly cut through Orochimaru and any snakes that come out of his arms/hands/mouth/whatever. Orochimaru does not have the CQC/taijutsu feats to beat Kakashi. He's not landing the spores on him.
Not to mention
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at close range like I previously would
catch him off guard,
This is the 2nd time in this thread someone is using SM Kabuto's speed, trying to imply Orochimaru could do the same thing. Please stop. Orochimaru hasn't ever shown anything capable of blitzing a sharingan user, "unprepared" or not.
so Kakashi doesn't have a complete advantage at close range either.
Well, if you give Orochimaru SM Kabuto's CQC/speed feats, then I agree completely. Sadly for Orochimaru, SM Kabuto is in a different universe than him(and Kakashi for that matter).
3T Kakashi only surpassed Tsunade, not the other two Sannin, and Oro is an especially bad matchup for someone who doesn't have any moves outside of Kamui to kill him, and an Early Part 2 Orochimaru who was still relatively weakened used Oral Rebith thrice in conjunction with summoning Sanjuu Rashoumon and using other techniques. Think about what Zetsu Oro with all of his techniques restored can do. Hydra isn't necessary.
lol @ Nothing outside of Kamui to kill him. Once Kakashi realizes cutting him in half doesn't kill him, he would go for the brain. Orochimaru isn't surviving his brain being destroyed. He's not invincible.
And I've still not been told how Kakashi doesn't just use 3T Sharingan genjutsu(again, he's already matched an Uchiha in it in his fight vs Obito) to solo Orochimaru, the same way Itachi and Sasuke(who was even paralyzed when he pulled off the 3T genjutsu, which makes it THAT much more embarrassing for Orochimaru) did.
I mean if you're having to resort to hype behind a technique that's shown little to nothing, especially in regards to something that could touch a kage-level opponent(and again I'm not even sure Zetsu Oro can use it, cause it seems if it was some almighty technique, he would have used it to fight Tobi), and using SM Kabuto feats to imply Orochimaru can beat Kakashi, you're having some issues making a credible argument.
