Kakashi the Rikudo Hokage
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i always considered kakashi to be a light indra and obito a dark ashura.
not even the susanoo was fully exlained so just go with it.
being juubi jin is being just like hago. obito absorbed it from mads i guess.
madara only had a moon staff, but he had ashuras chakra at least when he awoke rinne.
not even the susanoo was fully exlained so just go with it.
being juubi jin is being just like hago. obito absorbed it from mads i guess.
madara only had a moon staff, but he had ashuras chakra at least when he awoke rinne.
Rabbit Teth
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Classy, what can I say? When people chuck mud, I throw it back. This is a theory and your declaration of the theory being solo’d was premature. It might prove to be wrong but you’ve hardly made a case to disprove anything I’ve said.
Next up… are you seriously saying that the Staff is just symbolic of the Sage’s power? It’s the Sage’s primary weapon. Madara and Obito relied on lesser versions of it when they both made their plays for power. It happens to have symbolic meaning but it is also a very real weapon.
Finally and this is the big one, but how likely do you think it is that the Gedo Mazo is Kaguya’s body? I don’t know whether you’ve noticed this but the Gedo Mazo has a beard and a man’s body. Next time you go to a bar you might want to think twice before chatting up Conchita Wurst ... unless you’re into that sort of thing … just sayin.
You do raise a valid point though. We’ve been told that the Gedo is the Juubi’s body but it’s also been heavily hinted that the Juubi was Kaguya. How do you square the circle? Well my theory (Spoilers)….
Can you notice the differences between this Juubi:
and this Juubi:
Apart from the obvious difference in size and the absence of Hamura you might have noticed that this sage holds his staff and sword the other way around but more importantly this sage only has the Sun Staff. That’s because this sage is probably Asura.
When Hagoromo talks about his sons and how they died he says that their bodies were destroyed:
I reckon that that was because he destroyed them. The clue is in Tobi’s account of Hagoromo’s death. Shortly before he died, the Sage split the chakra of the Juubi and dispersed it because he was starting to lose control of it:
The Sage is credited with creating the moon:
…but that wouldn’t be possible unless he did it before his sons were grown up otherwise there wouldn’t be a moon for Indra to stand under:
The sage had to have created the moon from the original Juubi’s body (it was much larger than the second Juubi’s body):
Hagoromo turned into a second Juubi before he died. That’s why he split the chakra that had been sealed within him, that's why he sealed his own body within the moon and that’s also why the Gedo has a man’s body and the same beard as Hagoromo except cut short (Gyuki being part Juubi part Hagoromo also gets it):
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When Hagoromo talks about his sons and how they died he says that their bodies were destroyed:
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Hagoromo turned into a second Juubi before he died. That’s why he split the chakra that had been sealed within him, that's why he sealed his own body within the moon and that’s also why the Gedo has a man’s body and the same beard as Hagoromo except cut short (Gyuki being part Juubi part Hagoromo also gets it):
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i noticed that depictions of the sage from others only depict him as having a ringed staff. its weird.
sage here has same symbols ashuras avatar has
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sage here has same symbols ashuras avatar has
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Rabbit Teth
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From the context I think the first two are supposed to be Asura. Asura needed the chakra from his supporters in order to beat his brother. Asura was the one who carried on the Sage's message of Ninshuu. Nobody much liked the genius brother with the ability to burn people in flames hotter than the sun.
The Last one is probably the Sage. You just can't see the bottom of his staff. There is no unrestricted view on earlier Sage panels. It is either a continuity error or it's a teaser of what's to come. I put it in a spoiler thread just in case. I'm looking forward to Hagoromo's flashback of the Juubi battle and his last night with his sons. I think my Spiral theory would make for an epic tragedy.
I'll probably be crushed when Naruto conjures up a new Rasengan and finishes off Kaguya next week. I think my theories are pretty sound for the moment though. At least I don't buy these alternate explanations which suggest Obito just held back some chakra because… you know …?
Great theory here and u deffo got me thinking bout something’s, I never noticed the differences in the Staff when Hogoramo and Hamura fought the 1st Jubii and that the Staff was different when apparently Ashura fought the Jubii.
Some1 mentioned that maybe Kakashi was the transimigrant of Ashura and that Obito was the transimigrant of Indira,now this thing is bugging me a bit,couse the moment that Obito becomed the Jubii Jin, his staff was the Sun Staff that supouse to represent the ASHURA transimigrant,so that theory goes down the drain…
Apparently when Obito tuck some powers from Madara Jubii Jin, in that moment Madaras Staff was the Moon Staf, and Obito got his Sun Staff in that moment, I woud have expected that from the mixture of their chakras,Obito woud have gotten the Moon and Sun Staff but that didn’t happen. So that can eather mean that Obito didn’t take rikudo chakra from Madara….or he did and it takes time for the chakras to mix up???
Or maybe the shape of the Staff just represents what yin/yang chakra is more expressed in 1 person…
Some1 mentioned that maybe Kakashi was the transimigrant of Ashura and that Obito was the transimigrant of Indira,now this thing is bugging me a bit,couse the moment that Obito becomed the Jubii Jin, his staff was the Sun Staff that supouse to represent the ASHURA transimigrant,so that theory goes down the drain…
Apparently when Obito tuck some powers from Madara Jubii Jin, in that moment Madaras Staff was the Moon Staf, and Obito got his Sun Staff in that moment, I woud have expected that from the mixture of their chakras,Obito woud have gotten the Moon and Sun Staff but that didn’t happen. So that can eather mean that Obito didn’t take rikudo chakra from Madara….or he did and it takes time for the chakras to mix up???
Or maybe the shape of the Staff just represents what yin/yang chakra is more expressed in 1 person…
So if someone disagrees with you, it's throwing mud? Pretty sensitive aren't you.
Primary weapon? When have you seen the sage use it as a weapon or actually fight period? Neither Madara or Obito used it very much at all. Also the staff is just a truth seeking ball in the shape of a staff, at least the ones they used, can't say about the original.
Pretty poor attempt at wit. What Gedo looks like has little to do with Kaguya. You think Kishi really had the plot and character designs all ironed out 100's of chapters and about a half-decade ago? We already know that Hagoromo and Hamura were not aware that the Juubi was actually created by the Shinju being influenced by Kaguya's will. Why do you think Madara saw her when he absorbed the tree? She was a part of it.
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In real life we call this most like Kishi changing his mind, again no details about the sage or the juubi were finialized at that point. As far at the manga is concerned, Kishi is able to retcon this because the 2nd picture is not a true flashback, but an imagining of what it was like. That's 100% the sage. You really think the sage wouldn't mention he turned into the juubi to Naruto who currently had all the bijuu chakra in him... and then the sage gave him more?
Man, that's some twisted logic. First off Tobi didn't know anything, but the story BZ created in order to make sure IT was done. Hagormo knew they're bodies were destroyed because he was able to watch over them after death, just like he knew what happened with Madara and about all the other past transmigrates of his sons.
Hagoromo turned into a second Juubi before he died. That’s why he split the chakra that had been sealed within him, that's why he sealed his own body within the moon and that’s also why the Gedo has a man’s body and the same beard as Hagoromo except cut short (Gyuki being part Juubi part Hagoromo also gets it):[/quote]
No, no, no.... The story of Rikodu created the moon was a fairytale. In truth he actually just sealed the gedo inside it. Again, it makes no sense for the sage to withhold this info at all. How would it change or enhance the plot at all? I thought you were joking before but if you really think that's a mustache on the Gedo... well lets just say we'll have to agree to disagree.
If it make you feel better I didn't dismiss your theory out of hand (whatever that means). I just complimented that poster on showing how big a hole exists in the theory with one sentence. I read you theory and agree with his sentiment and thought it was well put.
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Rabbit Teth
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You’re right I was being too sensitive and even when people chuck mud I shouldn’t throw it back. I do think it’s rude when people pile in from the sidelines. The traditional, I agree with so and so’s point is more appropriate. Crowing about soloing threads isn’t.
You’re still arguing the point (which I appreciate) but it just goes to show nothing was “solo’d”. You’ve also taken more than one sentence to disagree with me and that’s good because the theory is composed of many parts. I probably make a few errors but there is more than one idea in play. I haven’t seen any one critique that tears the whole theory down yet but then again I’m biased.
Yep, primary weapon. Madara and Obito cut off Minato’s arms off with it. Obito defends against Gudoudama with it. The grown up sage is rarely seen without it and he held it aloft when charging into battle against the Juubi. The Staffs aren’t for decoration.
I explained my theory, you can disagree with it if you like. When you remove chakra from a man you’re left with the shell of a man, when you remove the chakra from a woman you are left with the shell of a woman and when you remove the chakra from a tree you should be left with a tree. I don’t think it’s too hard to follow.
You may be right. I tend to think that Kishi has had a rough outline for how to develop the story for years and years. The first theory I ever wrote was called Why Obito is Tobi on ***********’s old forum. In it I discussed how Obito and Kakashi were always pictured recreating the Taijitu (the Yin Yang sign). Years and years later, when it was confirmed, people were still calling that revelation an ass pull. Kishi puts clues throughout his work a long time in advance of their realization in the story.*
…but logic nonetheless. Their bodies being destroyed is odd. They were the two most powerful ninja of their generation. Nothing and nobody should have been able to destroy them except perhaps for their father losing control of the Juubi’s chakra. If one brother had killed the other then perhaps only one body would have been destroyed. But both….? I only offer an explanation as to why.
This whole manga is a fairytale in case you hadn’t noticed.
As for the mustache that’s a beard… a beard….You really need your eyes checked.*Women don't usually have those either …or adam's apples …or …I'll stop there.
Why wouldn’t the Sage tell Naruto? For the same reason that Jinchuuriki aren’t to blame when their Bijuu Chakra went crazy. The Jinchuuriki loses control of the chakra and the chakra takes control ... usually leading to disaster. I lose count of how many times it’s happened in the manga.
It does make me feel better and thank you. You’re free to disagree with me, I prefer dealing with arguments rather than insults though. I’ll try and show more respect, if that helps (like I said, I’m grouchy).
This actually shows that the Sun and Moon power did not come from the Juubi. But if Obito had Sun power; then where did he get the Moon power from ? Even if you say; he got Moon power from Madara; he never got the Sun and Moon staff; he only had the Sun Staff.
He absorbed Bijju Chakra or the Juubi's Chakra from Madara and got the staff. But, won't this mean that the Sun and Moon powers are related to the Juubi ?
Meowazziel
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Re: [Theory] Kakashi the Rikudo Hokage
Good theory.
Maybe that is why Kakashi can handle Sharingan so well and why he could unlock MS in the first place.
Its a plausible theory at least, maybe it will be proven wrong some day through new manga info, but
people could be a bit more openminded to it tright now.
Good theory.
Maybe that is why Kakashi can handle Sharingan so well and why he could unlock MS in the first place.
Its a plausible theory at least, maybe it will be proven wrong some day through new manga info, but
people could be a bit more openminded to it tright now.
Rabbit Teth
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I totally agree about the staff representing Yin and Yang. The imagery of the Taijitu is reflected everywhere in the story and it is a central message of the manga.
(Yin and Yang were originally one entity)
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BZ
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Quote from Narutopedia “The recurring symbol on the Sound Four's tunics was the yin-yang, though the yin colour (black) was missing. The missing yin represented imbalance, alluding to their evil natures and to that of the seals, preventing harmony in life.”
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Team Dosu
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Quote from Narutopedia “The recurring symbol on the Sound Four's tunics was the yin-yang, though the yin colour (black) was missing. The missing yin represented imbalance, alluding to their evil natures and to that of the seals, preventing harmony in life.”
seemed to me they used their jutsu and TSB WAAAAAY more than the staff, but it's really just opinion either way. I'm not saying it's for show only, just that the relation between the staff and the power isn't what you say it is. I'm saying the staff represents that the wielder has the sage's power, but that power isn't derived, or directly linked to, it. In other words you could be a juubi jin or have the sage power and not have a staff.
I'm not sure you quite understand this, so I'll restate it. The original juubi and kuyaga are one in the same being. Shinju + Kaguya = Juubi. This is not debatable, it's manga fact. Not sure what you're getting at with this part though. Yes you remove the chakra from the Juubi you're left with shell of the Juubi (not a man or a woman).
Don't get too tied to the specifics or word choice in a fansub, you have to consider the context, because what is stated can't possible be a direct word-for-word relation to Japanese. "Destroy" in the way it's meant there is that their bodies were no more, leaving only their spirits. He wasn't saying something or someone necessarily killed them or they died at the same time. Though it's very possible they ended up killing each other after their last battle.
Not sure if you were trying to be funny, but I meant a fairytale in the framework of the story. Meaning it wasn't an actual fact but a story based down in the narutoverse.
It's not a beard, its a chin... a chin... You really need to get your eyes checked. *Hair of some type is usually involved when it comes to beards, since he's made of wood then I guess it could be grass... or ...moss. Not to mention if it is a beard, where is the separation from the chin?*
None of that explains why he wouldn't tell Naruto about it though. Are saying Hagoromo was worried Naruto would blame him for killing his own sons? I don't see how he spent all that time talking about how he felt one person having too much power is dangerous, but didn't want to warn Naruto who was getting even closer to being a juubi jin that he may one day lose control of that power. Also the jinchuuriki usually are blamed, that's why most were feared/hated in their respective villages.
Secondly if he did lose control how the hell did he seal himself and separate his chakra? It's been stated in the manga that once a bijuu takes full control, the host is gone, there's no going back. Also there is no precedent for self-sealing in the manga. Again just too many holes for me.
It's cool and I respect that you enjoy cordial debate.
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Rabbit Teth
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Thanks. That's the best I can hope for with any theory.
I think there are generations of ninja where two stand out from the rest because the chakra has transmigrated from the original brothers, Indra and Asura. I think Kakashi and Obito are one of those generations. I think Kishi might have teased this in the colour spread and that when Kakashi was donated Obito's chakra and not just his eyes that Indra's Yin and Asura's Yang might have unlocked the Rikudo's power (i.e. the power the Rikudo had before fighting the Juubi which is the ability to use the complete staff). Madara got the Rinnegan through forcibly combining his body with Hashirama's. I think Kakashi might have unlocked the Sage's Yin Yang powers (as represented by and embodied in the complete staff) because he was/is an Indra host.
Kakashi's character follows the same path as the natural genius Indra while Obito follows in the footsteps of the hard working Asura. In other words kakashi was born with the moon power. He just never realised he had it all along. In being able to overcome his differences with Obito and co-operate with him, Kakashi and Obito realised the Sage's vision passed down in the Naka Shrine Tablet.
Danzo and Hiruzen might have been another of those generations. I bring up Madara and Sasuke being alive at the same time in the OT to show that the Transmigrants' chakra can be in more than one place at a time.
Danso and Hiruzen - Yin Yang Brothers
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We’ve receieved one panel showing the Sage actually fighting the Juubi. When he did so he is clearly carrying the staff. That makes the staff not a Juubi power.
It would be possible that the staff were a Rinnegan power were it not for Obito displaying the beginning stages of the black rods during his fight with the Hunter Nin after Kakashi put his arm through Rin.
Not a Rinnegan power / Not a Juubi power but a Rikudo Power (or in Obito's case an Asura power)
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What I’m getting at is that the Rikudo blasted the Juubi’s body into space (according to established lore), that he sealed the Juubi’s chakra in himself (also established lore) but that before he passed on he lost control of the Juubi’s chakra and was forced to divide and disperse its chakra (also established lore). What happened to to the Sage’s body is what interests me. If you look at the Gedo closely you will notice that in addition to the beard (which admittedly is debatable ) it also has the same number of eyes as there are Bijuu. When the Sage dispersed his chakra you can imagine that it came through these eyes. The Gedo Mazo (with its ten tails and nine eyes) is evidence of a second Juubi besides the first that was Kaguya.
It could be a translation error but it would be a very extreme one. I think there’s more to come on the brothers (but that’s another theory).
The Sage used to be a tale. This is a manga. When there are myths they tend to be real in mangaland.
There aren’t many physical features but those that are identifiable (the eyes and the beard) correspond to Hagoromo. Only those with the Rinnegan are able to summon and control the Gedo. Given that the Rinnegan were Hagoromo’s eyes, that the sage divided his chakra into the same number as there are eyes on the Gedo and that the beard corresponds to Hagoromo’s beard… I’d say I’m not making too much of a leap to theorise that it was his body.
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If it was his body then it also makes sense that he turned into a Juubi himself. A theme of the manga is the difficulty in controlling such great power. Tobi establishes the "myth" that the Sage was on the verge of losing control prior to his passing on. That myth seems to be supported by the features evident on the Gedo.
Gaara and Naruto didn’t remember much of the things they did while possessed by their bijuu. There is a halfway phase where the bijuu can take control but isn’t freed. Gaara is asleep for most of his fight with Naruto in Part 1. Naruto knocks out Sakura and loses it against Nagato – he isn’t in control but nor is the Bijuu free. Naruto also doesn’t remember attacking Jiraiya.
Fighting his sons could have allowed Hagoromo to regain control (just as Naruto hit Gaara to wake him up in Part 1). Seeing the devastation, it would make sense for Hagoromo to want to prevent the Juubi being reborn. Dividing and dispersing the chakra smacks of a last ditch effort to avert the Juubi being reborn.
Gaara asleep Shukaku in control:
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No probs.
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I don't think that obito or kakashi have rikudos chakra
When obito took that chakra from madara he got the sages power again and that made his mangekyou stronger but he still gave the chakra to naruto he doesn't have it anymore but his mangekyou got stronger because of it
When obito took that chakra from madara he got the sages power again and that made his mangekyou stronger but he still gave the chakra to naruto he doesn't have it anymore but his mangekyou got stronger because of it
Rabbit Teth
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If you read the story as a shifting power balance where keeping track of who has the most Juubi chakra or who has the highest power rating then it makes sense to go looking for any incident where the heros stuck their fists in the power socket.
I say it makes sense but you still have to ignore that it requires Obito to have withheld power that he was supposed to have been giving to Naruto and to ignore that Obito never displays this Rikudo power that he is supposed to have stolen from Madara (who didn’t have any distinctly Rikudo power except the Rinnegan). Maybe Rikudo chakra is just like steroids and it supes up existing power. I don’t think that’s what the story is about.
It’s still possible that Kakashi could develop the Rinnegan but there isn’t any moral to that story. It reduces the whole story to one about stealing steroids. The Rinnegan is the Rikudo’s power that Madara obtained by biting Hashirama and going against the advice of the Rikudo. Kakashi obtaining the same power that Madara obtained by cheating the system would set the tone that co-operation and crazy plots to bite friends and steal their power all end in power so what difference does it make. There is a moral equivalency to this message, which doesn’t comport with the moral messages set throughout the rest of the manga.
I don’t think Kakashi will get the Rinnegan. I’m not sure meteorite attacks would work in the current Pure Land realms (the dimensions that they are currently exploring). He’s Kakashi of the Sharingan – it just wouldn’t feel right.
I think the staffs reflect the original message written on the Naka Shrine Tablet (as read by Hashirama – see above). Certain characters take after Indra or Asura. In the past these characters have done great things when they have worked together. Hashirama and Madara founded Konoha, brought an end to wars and established a new order for other countries to follow when they co-operated. This fell apart when they started working against each other because of the influence of BZ.
Kakashi has gone through the full gamut of working with and against his counterpart. They were not friends in the beginning but when they worked together they were able to defeat much stronger opponents. Outside forces worked to set them against each other but in the end they were able to find a way to work with each other. This is exactly the message that the Sage wrote on the Naka Shrine Tablet and that he wanted the transmigrating spirits of his sons to follow.
In these circumstances I think it would be much more symbolic for Kakashi to obtain the complete Yin Yang Staff. It would set him apart from the power ups obtained by Naruto and Sasuke. It would add a sense of weight and authority to his character. It would reinforce Kakashi as the surrogate father to Naruto and Sasuke that he has become.
I’m probably overcomplicating things. It was only an offhand remark made by Kakashi in the first place … but I think the staff fits much better with the themes of the story. This argument is an esoteric one so I doubt whether it will convince many but this is how I read the symbolism. The dumbed down argument is Sun Staff (Obito) added to Moon Staff (Kakashi) equals the Sun/Moon Staff of Hagoromo. The bigger picture argument needs you to appreciate what the diagram of the supreme ultimate (the Taijitu or Yin Yang Symbol) is all about.
NB The all Yin Staff of Madara and the all Yang Staff of Obito do not reflect the power of the sage's staff. These staffs represent Yin and Yang out of balance which is why chaos ensues. The true power comes when they work together.
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Rabbit Teth
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I think reincarnation is the answer to who Hamura is. Only one character actually does it but he's had trouble finding the right body. I'll put down a theory on something Hamura related next. It's cold outside and I have too much time on my hands.Your theory is very interesting. How do you think about Hamura? I have been thinking Kakashi is Hamura's reincarnation but I know it's quite far-fetched assumption
Rabbit Teth
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Kakashi had Indra's staff. He was only shown with it in a colour spread but those colour spreads are often full of spoilers. You can see it in 679.Naruto transferred Rikudo's power to Kakashi.
Btw, what staff did Kakashi have?