Kaito-sama and Tenzo's Heated Debate...own us if you can...

[Adachi]

Teh. Everyone's seen Kaito's sig, eh? Anyhow, he and I got in a crazy debate about it...mind you, he might as well reconsider his actions before he decides on putting random quotes anywhere, lols.
Hm. So now, I invite any of you to contradict either Kaito or I.. -smirk- Good luck with that...

The start of our debate:


TenzoX: Hm...nice status.
I know the path of destruction awaits those who seek power, but people seek it anyways...
It is through agony and sorrow that gets them started, and through the darkness of the path they walk, knowing not their own minds and actions, but rage...
That is why people seek power. Such a simple statement, but yet, people refuse to follow it.
Just to feel that one thing...power. Desire and revenge of those they hate in their hearts...
And that is why I seek power. It is the darkness that calls forth me, with all the burning fury and agony that comes with it. Power is not without a price to pay...

Mah - forgive me and my rant. I saw your status and got inspired...wonder if you really understand the meaning of that simple quote?

Kaito-sama: of course i do >_< anyone who walks to the path to attain power destruction only awaits as that attained power can only destroy what bout my sig quote people cant argue with it because its a factor of life the strong will survive and the weak shall perish. its also the darwin theory

TenzoX:Ever thought how the weak can become strong?
If someone weak has the will to become strong, then they will embrace that power and stand up against the strong.
Hm. Sounds racist to me...some strong do not steal freedom away from the weak...you are a mod, and I am a regular member...but yet, do you steal my regular posting rights from me?
"And it is the providence of nature that the strong survive" Nature? In what way? Their own confidence, power? Where does the power come from? We were all weak once...weak and strong should barely be categorized as genders are categorized...
I don't know where you got the quote, but I just don't agree with it...it's all messed up...~_~

Kaito-sama:lol the weak can attain power but rarely its survival of the fittest you must be strong to survive

TenzoX:Hm...agreed...
But the way you categorize 'strong' and 'weak'...I wonder? I depict it's from that game lols...Final Fantasy, eh?
Insightful quote...but rather wrong in many ways...even though you may be right, you said that the strong took freedom from the weak...then how does the weak become strong in that way? (thus contridicting my first argument...)
Er...you know what, I think this is going way too philosophical..~_~ If you don't mind, I'll stop right here. This is how I naturally fool people anyhow...

Kaito-sama:the weak become strong by finding courage and will to stand up to the strong

TenzoX: And this takes up back to the beginning of the argument...thus your quote says the strong takes freedom from the weak...so how are they able to stand up? O__O
-cough- anyhow, I could argue all night with you and have funs...lols..

Kaito-sama: did i just not state how they do -- ?

TenzoX: Hm. You wrote "lol the weak can attain power but rarely its survival of the fittest you must be strong to survive"
Rarely? O__O You make it sound so easy...first you say the strong takes away 'freedom' from the weak (what kind of freedom?)
So now you're saying that every weak person can become strong? Because the strong hasn't taken away their freedom?
And what is 'strong'? What is 'weak'?
How do the strong take away their freedom? Pernamently?
And most importantly, where does the weak find the courage to stand up and fight if they've lost all freedom? (also known as despair..)

~_~ Just threw a bunch of questions at you...answer them if you can...
If you don't want to...meh, well that's uninsightful lols...

Kaito-sama:rite
question one: yes a weak person can become strong
question two: strong is someone with strengh and no regret and the weak are people who havent got courage or are unsure on what to do so generally they dont do nothing because they feel they can.
question three: the strong take away the weaks freedom by making the weak grow fearful and scared and when scared you cant make a correct choice and through suppression may one take freedom away and taking away the factors that give one the courage and hope. and finally
question four: the weak find the courage because one of them finally gets annoyed and acts on their judgement to change their destiny

^_^ hope that answers your questions

TenzoX: "question one: yes a weak person can become strong" Ok. Basis...but how? *reads further*
"question two: strong is someone with strengh and no regret and the weak are people who havent got courage or are unsure on what to do so generally they dont do nothing because they feel they can."Hm? So there is a basis starting point for strong people? Who was the first one to become strong? What kind of strength? And regret is something that even strong people can't get rid of...there are plenty of people out there who regret...but are strong-willed. Hm...weak do nothing? So you're saying the strong steals their freedom and then teach them to become strong? Rather contradicting...the dark takes light, then teaches it to become dark, eh?
"question three: the strong take away the weaks freedom by making the weak grow fearful and scared and when scared you cant make a correct choice and through suppression may one take freedom away and taking away the factors that give one the courage and hope. and finally" If the weak is scared, then how do you grow in strength? If they lost courage and hope, how do they become strong? So, now you're implying that strong takes away freedom, but now, they won't teach them to become strong?
"question four: the weak find the courage because one of them finally gets annoyed and acts on their judgement to change their destiny" Hah. I personally found this one funny since it is the basis of most novels and literature works. ROFL? How do they start this? Where do they get their courage if (as you said) is taken away by the strong? Judgement? Isn't this knowledge? If the weak are so weak, where do they attain the knowledge and will to do this kind of thing?
So overall, you're contridicting yourself in so many ways...~_~
The weak can rise up after they lose courage? Eh? O__O
The strong has no regret? That means they're either non-human or completely heartless or sinless...
Hmm....*thinks with puzzlement...*

Kaito-sama: they start by becoming fed up from being suppressed and bullied. the courage comes from a strong willed person. judgement is not knowlegde it is a persons choice on a problem knowlege only comes into it when understanding the full situation. and just cause they weak doesnt mean they have not got knowlege it can be in the form of cunning mind knowing tricks and deception to full the strong and take advantage of their slightly weakend state to thus overpower them and course they can rise up after loosing courage as hope can be stronger than courage or someone can muster up enough courage to provide inspiration to those who lack courage

TenzoX: "they start by becoming fed up from being suppressed and bullied" From this, you are implying that the weak has always been weak, eh? Suppressed and bullied...by the strong? Wow - and you said the strong has no regrets and were...not-weak...if that is your definition of them, then why do they bully the weak? It is a cowardice action...
"judgement is not knowlegde it is a persons choice" We are forced to go to school,lols, so we can learn stuff to help us in our lives...(isn't the point of life survival?) A person's choice? - not always...there is always a starting point. And the strong must start that point. That's why there are senseis, to pass knowledge down from one person to another...
And if you're saying the strong bully the weak, where does this starting place come from? It's like....a flat mountain that has been flat for years that suddenly become high in one place. How did that happen? How did it start?
"cunning mind knowing tricks and deception" Teh. Starting point again...so now you're saying the weak copy the strong's ways? Mind-knowing tricks? O__O This is weird...people need knowledge to do these, but if they are weak and the strong bully them, how do they get this knowledge? And more importantly, the will to do that? Something -someone- must start it...but who? O_O
"and course they can rise up after loosing courage as hope" Hope for what? What do you mean? They lose courage and gain hope? Where do they gain courage? For what intentions? And continuing on with that quote...
"can be stronger than courage or someone can muster up enough courage to provide inspiration to those who lack courage"
Who? The strong? Teh - and you said that the strong bully the weak...where does the person gain courage to provide inspiration? What inspiration? A rebel? lols...
Anyhow, think of it like this. You live in a cave for all your life...you don't anything in the outside world...then all of the sudden, one day you want to go out...
What implies this action? The sudden glimpse of light outside? Someone else comes in and brings you out the cave?
What is the action and what starts it?

Kaito-sama: O_O cant you do it in one Message >_< easier to answer lol il just answer the last one its HUMAN NATURE curiosity of being human does one take that step into the new world.

TenzoX: It won't let me post over 1000 characters lols....
Human nature eh? That is YOUR definition of what it is then....Wrong way of explaining it.
Human nature is influenced...yes so, maybe desire is what we have when we are born, but how far we carry it is ALL influence...otherwise we will be clueless as a rock.
Hm - this is exactly like gender definitions. What is YOUR definition of a guy? Of a girl? You live up to society's expectation of them, you look at them in a stereotypical ways...guys are supposed to love games, flirt with girls, act rough.
Girls are supposed to dress up to look beautiful and attract guys, be soft and love cute things...Isn't this all society's expectations? Is there a law book somewhere that says how each one of the genders should act?
In this same way, I can apply it to your strong and weak definitions...that quote is extremely stereotypical...Overall, I just depicted to you in which ways it is wrong...and you gave me your definition of what you think is right...which is, in fact, not the right way inapplying...
But I suppose everything is man's definition...and your definitions are influenced by games and people around you....
Heh - it was nice to see you try and explain it to me...
Mah - I suppose you haven't gave much thought to that quote, but I suppose now you have lols...But you probably won't survive the questions I ask you and I can contradict every one of your answers....O_O I was bored...now, if you have anything to add, do so. You're 19 years old...must have had much training in the world already, if you haven't already...

Kaito-sama: yes its human nature that makes us curious and propels someone to walk out a cave that has been their home for all their lives and again human nature to control weaker people because that factor is in out genetic makeup hense why humans will always wage war against each other and the strong trying to control the weak that is a given fact the only real way to stop this it to thus kill that human nature and thus making humans no longer human.
and its hard to answer your questions when they are simply in mulitple posts lets just leave it now it too annoying to answer multiple questions in different posts O_O <- I think he was too busy with training students lol.

TenzoX: Hah - ok. I thought you would say that sometime...
It was fun when it lasted and I still have many arguments with you....but since you want to leave it....fine by me lols.
I guess I just think too much...4 am. Time to sleep lol

Kaito-sama: lool id continue if i had more time and able to just have it in one post to reply to maybe discussion thread get people involved it be funny nice big old debate >_<

Mah - it ended at this, so I took him up on his offer and created this. Now people, I need your opinion....
Ah yes. Musa said:
Musasaibou: your conversation with kaito is a pointless in the way that all men and women have equal opinions on what is what and who is who. The strong can be defined as the ones already at the top or the ones on the bottom surviving to live. The ones that have nothing and try all they can to get to the top or the ones that have the power and push the ones that are already down beneath them. Strength is like beauty, the eye of the beholder decides whats beauty or not.

Hm. Yes it is, in fact...but it is through these debates that men grow. One person argues with another to try and make him/her see his/her point of view on a topic.

And Kaito-sama: Here's my response to yours, I went to sleep last night lols. You wrote: yes its human nature that makes us curious and propels someone to walk out a cave that has been their home for all their lives and again human nature to control weaker people because that factor is in out genetic makeup hense why humans will always wage war against each other and the strong trying to control the weak that is a given fact the only real way to stop this it to thus kill that human nature and thus making humans no longer human.


Then...What is human nature? Is it that seed planted in us that makes us so selfish and greedy? and moreover, how does it lead people to become strong or weak?
If everything is the cause of human nature, like you said, then how do things turn out to be different (some people become strong and others become weak?)? Some random factor? Kill the human nature and make us non-human? Lols...describle human nature more clearly before you say that. But then again, if I ask you to do that, then that would be your opinion of what it is...sigh...U_U

Well then...your say, people. And here's the link to the original conversation if you want it:

You must be registered for see links

GL, I grant you.

 

[Universal Enlightenment]

Long Story Short Please???

 

[Adachi]

Nope. O_O
If you're interested, then read it lols...if you're not, then don't...xd..

 

[Universal Enlightenment]

Thats The Point Dont Understand??

 

[Caliburn]

I don't agree in the least with Kaito's quote, however you, Tenzo, are by far the most foolish person of the entire convo.

Sorry to say it but the fact that you actually tried to argue about something idiotic as that and even posted it in a thread makes you loose all credibility.

That statement probably comes from some anime/manga/game or is inspired by it. Everyone of those has always some kind of "global truth" that makes sense in that specific anime/manga/game. But in another anime they have a completely other vision and that makes also sense. The answer is simple: everything is subjective. One of the best examples you can have are the Espada from Bleach. They have all their own vision and when they explain it, it makes some sense but still they are all completely different from each other.

The way you were talking it was just like a weak, flat imitation of Socrates. The only thing you did was asking questions about things Kaito said, but you barely gave self an answer. Kaito had at least a notion, even if it is one that doesn't make sense or is completely wrong, he had one. You didn't had any, and if you had one you lost yourself completely in it.

The way you're talking is like you're the smart one and that Kaito is arrogant and ignorant; but that's you O_O. Kaito was wrong, but you aren't any better or worse. And if were, you burried it completely in all your "arguments". You really aren't suited for doing such dialogues as far as I can see. Everyone can ask questions about everything and find conradictions in everything. As I said before the fact that you even tried to argue about that and posted it here makes you look like a fool.

Human nature? Darwin? Pretty much everything was completely wrong used and interpreted. If there was somewhere along that entire conversation a valid point, it got completely lost along the way and died.

There's no answer for that quote. The only thing that gets close enough is saying that it's subjective. The only person that actually still had a clear mind was Musa.
I don't agree with Kaito, however you still could follow him to a certain hight. If there's someone who lost, it's definitely you.

This entire discussion was such a waste.

 

[Amaya Sayuri]

O___O uh... *speechless* got nothng to say...

 

[Adachi]

Caliburn: I never said I was right in any way? Indeed, there are many things in life that have no point in them...but people insist upon making a point anyways...
There is no 'winning' nor 'losing' in the argument...it was simply for fun and that is it. Everyone has different viewpoints on different things...
Hm - you're right that it's from an anime or game or so what...but if kaito is inspired to induce such a conversation with me then it means that he nus have put some insight into it and I was curious to what it was.
And yes, it was all questions...remember that I started the conversation because I was curious...and when people are curious, they ask, not answer...
I am not trying to win. I was just having the blast of my life lols...(also was rather curious to see how far kaito would go...heh)
And it was kaito's idea after all, I'm not trying to win any reputation...as you see, I was just curious...lol, thanks for your input, caliburn...
I would give you a more detailed reply, but scuse me for now...I just spent seven hours getting up to the sixtieth episode of Bleach and it is already 4:40 am here...not to mention this was all typed on an iPod...
U_U Scuse me for now....

 

[Musashibo]

This situation is pretty much like this. The strong only exist because the weak are present. As much as the strong have power they wouldn't have it if the weak wasn't there. The strong use the weak and the weak use the strong to survive and overcome challenges. Both sides are strong but from two different stand points. If the strong was to only survive that would contradict itself. It's like saying light can exist without dark.

Light is defined by the absence of darkness. Cold is defined by the absence of heat. There wouldn't be a food chain for animals if only the top of it survived and if that happened they would eventually die out.

In a different way of explaining it think about it like this. Your the white knight and there is a black knight. (I'm not racist just using the black/white i'm using completely different shades as examples.) You as the white knight fight for good while the black knight fights for evil. Now right there is what you think and only believe. The black knight fights for good as well and fights against your evil. Since both of you fight for different things there is bound to be a battle and no collection of information tells you any part of their side. Like I stated on your profile before opinions is what everyone has and as much as you think your right the other person will think your wrong since they believe in what they believe.

There is my buck chipped in. The argument/debate/discussion is completely biased to what you or Kaito think and believe in so this is a never ending chat.

 

[Caliburn]

Caliburn: I never said I was right in any way? Indeed, there are many things in life that have no point in them...but people insist upon making a point anyways...
There is no 'winning' nor 'losing' in the argument...it was simply for fun and that is it. Everyone has different viewpoints on different things...
Hm - you're right that it's from an anime or game or so what...but if kaito is inspired to induce such a conversation with me then it means that he nus have put some insight into it and I was curious to what it was.
And yes, it was all questions...remember that I started the conversation because I was curious...and when people are curious, they ask, not answer...
I am not trying to win. I was just having the blast of my life lols...(also was rather curious to see how far kaito would go...heh)
And it was kaito's idea after all, I'm not trying to win any reputation...as you see, I was just curious...lol, thanks for your input, caliburn...
I would give you a more detailed reply, but scuse me for now...I just spent seven hours getting up to the sixtieth episode of Bleach and it is already 4:40 am here...not to mention this was all typed on an iPod...
U_U Scuse me for now....

You're not making it any better -_- this doesn't even need a long reply. The one you just gave is already to long for this. And as I see the convo you're the one who started it, you're the one who kept on going, not Kaito.

And as I recall I never said that you said you were right. On the contrary I even said you didn't had an opinion, or more precise a notion. And that's the worst part of it. If you don't have one of your own, you shouldn't start using arguments on other people especially not with such a ridiculous, fictional subject where everyone can find arguments for.

And whatever kind of situation you are, even if it's just to learn, in the end there's always winning or loosing in such discussions. Even if you don't want to. Imagine that you broke all Kaito's arguments, then you won and still that wasn't your intention, even if it was just to practise. If you want to win or not, even if it is a draw(what most of the time is) it still remains something that guides the entire convo.

Next time you do such things, do it with a subject that actually deserves it.

 

[zumorikato]

Really people what is this world coming to?

First of, interesting points.

Second of, stupid form of debating like Caliburn indicated.

Thirdly what is the desired result of this debate?

Like I said interesting points, theres a lot of chit chat going on between the different parties, but no actual information sharing. You cant go around throwing different facts around and want to obtain a conclusion via those means, really. I sense 3 different type of debates going on in one, and while you are busy with one debate, another starts throwing in facts or arguments for another debate.

1st debate. Reasons for Power, use or abuse of Power, and the effects of Power?

2nd debate. Strong vs Weak? (This by the way is completely subjective like Musasibou indicated)

3.rd debate. What makes us human?

So before one of you engage in such a discussion determine the topic and stick to it. Don't wander off on different subjects along the way!


Now I cant provide my opinion because like I said there is no basis on what to provide an opinion on! SO please sort that out first.

Though I can merely indicate some contradictions.

"Light is defined by the absence of darkness" I think you wanted to rephrase that, its darkness is defined by the absence of light not vice versa. Though its much easier to differentiate between light when there is darkness, there is no light if you suddenly take away the darkness, though there is darkness when you remove the light.

Another thing, that I picked up is talking about human nature. Come on people there is no such thing as (human nature)! We as humans are the most unnatural thing if there ever was something! Its like talking about black is white, you cant!!!! The only thing that resembles anything remotely close to nature of humans is the fact that we eat, sleep, sh!t and multiply! Though theres a lot of good hearted tree huggers out there, the evidence and situation the human race find its self in clearly contradicts that we are natural.

Also the fact that you have freewill and a cognitive mental capacity to reason removes any argument that could involve acting upon instinct. Even though you are starving to death you wouldnt necessarily kill your child and eat it in order to survive(Depending upon how sick you are).

So no, there is nothing natural about humans as we determine what is natural and what is not. Thus another subjective point on which we can not debate.

 

[Vexen]

holy sh*t thats a long debate

 

[Eddy-kun..]

lol what the point of this?

 

[aTastyCookie]

So Long I'm Just going to pick My favorite color that is on it Green... Also I Don't Get What Ya Quotes Mean Kaito Had To Tell Me on MSN what it means lol

 

[Adachi]

@Caliburn: I think everything is worth talking about...~_~
@Eddy-kun (anbu itachi): There is no point in anything in this world...
@zumorikato: Yes, it was a stupid way to debate, but at least both Kaito and I got something out of it...

You got some interesting points there, Caliburn...then I would like to further this argument to this something else...
Following this, I have two philosophies...tell me whether you agree with it or not...

Human nature: Every single thing we do is for our own desire. Whether we give someone a gift, love someone, or help the community...deep down, it is all for our own desire.

Natural law: There is no law that says that genders have to behave in a certain way. People look at guys to be strong and supportive of woman...they have to be cool and lax on the outside...(this is general stereotype)
People look at girls to be soft-hearted, scream cute at like every single thing they see, and dress up to look hot and charming.

Hm. You get it, don't you? Basic stereotypes for both genders. Now, is there a law anywhere is this world that says that either of the genders have to act that way? Isn't that society's expectations for each gender? Moreover, YOUR definition of what each gender is supposed to act like?
Even so you may say that we are born with these natural instincts because guys are naturally stronger than girls...but how we act is still our own choice, isn't it?

Do you agree with me? And if you do, give me reason...because this is what everyone overlooks these days...

Hm. Anyone can reply: I was just interested to see how anyone thinks about this...

 

[zumorikato]

@Caliburn: I think everything is worth talking about...~_~
@Eddy-kun (anbu itachi): There is no point in anything in this world...
@zumorikato: Yes, it was a stupid way to debate, but at least both Kaito and I got something out of it...

You got some interesting points there, Caliburn...then I would like to further this argument to this something else...
Following this, I have two philosophies...tell me whether you agree with it or not...

Human nature: Every single thing we do is for our own desire. Whether we give someone a gift, love someone, or help the community...deep down, it is all for our own desire.

Natural law: There is no law that says that genders have to behave in a certain way. People look at guys to be strong and supportive of woman...they have to be cool and lax on the outside...(this is general stereotype)
People look at girls to be soft-hearted, scream cute at like every single thing they see, and dress up to look hot and charming.

Hm. You get it, don't you? Basic stereotypes for both genders. Now, is there a law anywhere is this world that says that either of the genders have to act that way? Isn't that society's expectations for each gender? Moreover, YOUR definition of what each gender is supposed to act like?
Even so you may say that we are born with these natural instincts because guys are naturally stronger than girls...but how we act is still our own choice, isn't it?

Do you agree with me? And if you do, give me reason...because this is what everyone overlooks these days...

Hm. Anyone can reply: I was just interested to see how anyone thinks about this...

OK, before I even bother in thinking to answer this, and I want an honest answer. Do you do this just to debate for the sake of debating or are you actually really wanting something from this?

Im not here to talk to somebody that only likes debating, because they usually dont know when to stop or draw the line and theyll continue and irritate the other person and the rest of the community to no end. So think carefully before answering.

And to cut down on one of your hypotheses:

"Human nature: Every single thing we do is for our own desire. Whether we give someone a gift, love someone, or help the community...deep down, it is all for our own desire."

Is utter bull cr@p.

This is what one would call selfishness not "human nature", selfishness is merely part of what makes one human but not all of your thoughts and actions is based on that intention so this is totally wrong. If youve skipped the part were I said I dont believe that there is a thing called "human nature" then we are going to have a problem. If you want to learn something you need to listen aswell.

So to follow on your form of "information sharing", I want to know why you think that the human actions is based on selfishness? Why cant one do something out of love for one another?

 

[Adachi]

Hmm...that's hard to answer. (Your first question) First of all, I did it just for fun...but at the same time, I wanted to see if anyone had any good answers at all for me...
If you think I'm annoying/anyone else, just tell me and I'll stop, but I'm just simple curious...and curiosity, I've gotta admit, overcomes everything...

Anyhow - It still depends on how you categorize human nature. Human nature isdesire. No matter how you look at it, it is desire. Selfishness is part of human desire...and overall, it connects to desire. Desire causes us to do any of the sins that we commit: Whether it be jealously, anger, selfishness...etc

Hmph. Love. Love sounds like a pathetic thing to me. (Not just because I am unable to produce feeling for any gender despite how old I am...) When we first start looking for love, don't we expect something in return? We LOVEsomeone, we crush on them, we want them...and that is desire. We do those things to get something in return.
Out of love for one another? It still sums up to desire. You WANTthat person...and just to emphasize, if we really were in a situation of life/death, and you really do sacrfice yourself to your love, don't you expect them to honor you in return? (I'm sure you'll be mad to see them take it for granted, if you could when you're dead, that is)

Let me emphasize more. Think deep. And I mean deep...everything you're doing right now, whether it be on NB, or whatever, we are doing it for our desire.
Break it down: There are two things to desire: To impress others or benefit yourself (which still sums to human nature of desire)

Example:
As teenagers, we dress up and check the mirror everyday to see if we look good or not. (applys to both genders) It may have become a natural thing to us; most likely we were influenced by our friends to do this.
But when you really think about it, we dress up for others to see. And why do we want others to see? Desire. You want to impress them, so you can benefit yourself.

I don't feel like typing another example...but this basically sums it up.

Now anyone, I would like your opinions.

 

[zumorikato]

Hmm...that's hard to answer. (Your first question) First of all, I did it just for fun...but at the same time, I wanted to see if anyone had any good answers at all for me...
If you think I'm annoying/anyone else, just tell me and I'll stop, but I'm just simple curious...and curiosity, I've gotta admit, overcomes everything...

Very well then, you seem persistent to proceed. Im sorry but I will then answer your posts in reverse, this makes it easier for me to bring out my point.

Anyhow - It still depends on how you categorize human nature. Human nature isdesire. No matter how you look at it, it is desire. Selfishness is part of human desire...and overall, it connects to desire. Desire causes us to do any of the sins that we commit: Whether it be jealously, anger, selfishness...etc

If you indicate that it all depends on how one categorizes "human nature" then you started off with a subjective point, for me to proceed further on this is merely providing an opinion upon your opinion.

So your core believe revolves on desire? If I may ask what is the desire that you seek in Desiring?

As you indicated Selfishness is merely a form of desire. However I categorize Selfishness as a higher part in the hierarchy that you provided, I believe that your selfishness drives "what you want" in to what you desire. There is a difference between desire and wanting something, when you want something its ok, but when you apply selfishness with that "wanting something" it changes to what we would call desire. So in my point of view I find your analogy of "human nature" to be wrong.

Hmph. Love. Love sounds like a pathetic thing to me. (Not just because I am unable to produce feeling for any gender despite how old I am...) When we first start looking for love, don't we expect something in return? We LOVEsomeone, we crush on them, we want them...and that is desire. We do those things to get something in return.
Out of love for one another? It still sums up to desire. You WANTthat person...and just to emphasize, if we really were in a situation of life/death, and you really do sacrfice yourself to your love, don't you expect them to honor you in return? (I'm sure you'll be mad to see them take it for granted, if you could when you're dead, that is)

In all honesty I petty you, if your emotion/feelings/though exclude love, this world would not have had anything good if there wasnt some form of love. The reason why you might not understand/feel/fail(Like in epic fail not a typo ) in love might be due to the point of view that you take when approaching love, you clearly (and not to be rude) missed the meaning of love if you proceed in a relationship/friendship/what ever/ if your objective is to "gain" something from it. Thats another form of the "desire" that you portrait earlier. The true meaning of love is to give and not expect something in return. Thus if your unable to give, love, provide, support without expecting something in return you didnt do it out of love. So this should answer the rest of what you typed in the above text.

Let me emphasize more. Think deep. And I mean deep...everything you're doing right now, whether it be on NB, or whatever, we are doing it for our desire.

No, everything Im doing is a carefully plotted event that I have convinced myself in doing, irrespective of your reply or my feeling towards this. I dont let desire drive me, I drive desire. Understand the difference.

Break it down: There are two things to desire: To impress others or benefit yourself (which still sums to human nature of desire)

I dont care towards your feelings/emotion, whether you are impressed or not from my response neither does this reply benefit me what so ever.

So Im really sorry, but I strongly disagree with your point of view.

Example:
As teenagers, we dress up and check the mirror everyday to see if we look good or not. (applys to both genders) It may have become a natural thing to us; most likely we were influenced by our friends to do this.
But when you really think about it, we dress up for others to see. And why do we want others to see? Desire. You want to impress them, so you can benefit yourself.

I don't feel like typing another example...but this basically sums it up.

Now anyone, I would like your opinions.

You teenagers might dress up with that narrow minded though in your head. Other individuals do it to merely to cover their shame. Others do it to feel good about them selfs. Others dont ware close LOL. So no, I dont think that everything in your life is driven by a "desire", although I agree that there is a thing called desire, and I do agree that certain individuals crave for something and let their desire drive them but not all of humanity is comb under the same brush my friend.

@Caliburn: I think everything is worth talking about...~_~
@Eddy-kun (anbu itachi): There is no point in anything in this world...
@zumorikato: Yes, it was a stupid way to debate, but at least both Kaito and I got something out of it...

Thats good, if someone gets to learn something out of something then cool. Just know when to stop.

Im sorry but I will be deleting things from your post that I do not see how it contributes to the discussion.

Human nature: Every single thing we do is for our own desire. Whether we give someone a gift, love someone, or help the community...deep down, it is all for our own desire.

We have been over this.

Natural law: There is no law that says that genders have to behave in a certain way. People look at guys to be strong and supportive of woman...they have to be cool and lax on the outside...(this is general stereotype)
People look at girls to be soft-hearted, scream cute at like every single thing they see, and dress up to look hot and charming.

Ok, no you totally miss categorized this one bro. This isnt Natural Law that you are referring to your referring to "Human Perception". Humans makes the rule in the human society and socio environments differ from country to country. It is the human perception that created those stigmas you have indicated above not nature.

Hm. You get it, don't you? Basic stereotypes for both genders. Now, is there a law anywhere is this world that says that either of the genders have to act that way? Isn't that society's expectations for each gender? Moreover, YOUR definition of what each gender is supposed to act like?
Even so you may say that we are born with these natural instincts because guys are naturally stronger than girls...but how we act is still our own choice, isn't it?

Agreed, though my personal interpretation of the word human instinct differ from the norm Ill leave it at that. But I think this is the most sensible thing you have typed thus far.

 

[Adachi]

O___O

If you indicate that it all depends on how one categorizes "human nature" then you started off with a subjective point, for me to proceed further on this is merely providing an opinion upon your opinion.

So your core believe revolves on desire? If I may ask what is the desire that you seek in Desiring?

As you indicated Selfishness is merely a form of desire. However I categorize Selfishness as a higher part in the hierarchy that you provided, I believe that your selfishness drives "what you want" in to what you desire. There is a difference between desire and wanting something, when you want something its ok, but when you apply selfishness with that "wanting something" it changes to what we would call desire. So in my point of view I find your analogy of "human nature" to be wrong.

Selfishness is desire since you begin by wanting something, then going for it. Desire is the basis for selfishness, no matter how you look at it.
Then again, human nature is still desire. Selfishness as a driving emotion all begins with desire. The basic foundation is still desire no matter how far you stretch its roots.

In all honesty I petty you, if your emotion/feelings/though exclude love, this world would not have had anything good if there wasnt some form of love. The reason why you might not understand/feel/fail(Like in epic fail not a typo ) in love might be due to the point of view that you take when approaching love, you clearly (and not to be rude) missed the meaning of love if you proceed in a relationship/friendship/what ever/ if your objective is to "gain" something from it. Thats another form of the "desire" that you portrait earlier. The true meaning of love is to give and not expect something in return. Thus if your unable to give, love, provide, support without expecting something in return you didnt do it out of love. So this should answer the rest of what you typed in the above text.

I don't detest love since male and female were born for another, naturally. But then again, love starts with desire. Didn't I say that you want that person as a first? The true meaning of love is to give and not expect something in return. I've heard this so many times, whether in anime, movies, novels...etc. I can't say I disagree with this, but I have to say, if this is a true, then it becomes a point where both lovers have set their desire at a balanced point in where they are both confident that the other won't ditch/betray them. (Sadly, this doesn't happen a lot. That's why divorces happen)
You definitely don't say something like that on the first date.

No, everything Im doing is a carefully plotted event that I have convinced myself in doing, irrespective of your reply or my feeling towards this. I dont let desire drive me, I drive desire. Understand the difference.

Hm. That really doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying. Driving desire? It's still all desire. Desire is a part of us: it is the foundation of human nature. If not, then where does this desire come from?

I dont care towards your feelings/emotion, whether you are impressed or not from my response neither does this reply benefit me what so ever.

So Im really sorry, but I strongly disagree with your point of view.

What? O_____O I never said anything about being impressed...(I don't want to go deeper than this since I really do hate being blunt...~_~) It was general thinking. Why do you disagree with it? Think of it: Why did I even post this entire thread? Desire. I wanted people to look at it and give me their opinions. I WANTED.

You teenagers might dress up with that narrow minded though in your head. Other individuals do it to merely to cover their shame. Others do it to feel good about them selfs. Others dont ware close LOL. So no, I dont think that everything in your life is driven by a "desire", although I agree that there is a thing called desire, and I do agree that certain individuals crave for something and let their desire drive them but not all of humanity is comb under the same brush my friend.

You teenagers? O__O You've gone past your teenage years, lol? (Take a guess on how old I am...bid you luck, ) Narrow-minded? I highly doubt you haven't checked yourself out in the mirror before.
OK - so you said that some people do it to cover their shame? Then there is a two-way connection here. 1. Yes, to hide their shame...but from what? Other people! They don't want to get embarassed by whatever reason and they want to look good in front of other person - for their benefit. Hm. Desire. O_O

Ok, no you totally miss categorized this one bro. This isnt Natural Law that you are referring to your referring to "Human Perception". Humans makes the rule in the human society and socio environments differ from country to country. It is the human perception that created those stigmas you have indicated above not nature.

Shit, yeah. O_O Oops. Though I wouldn't say that every single society environments differ from country to country...there's always that basic foundation.

Agreed, though my personal interpretation of the word human instinct differ from the norm Ill leave it at that. But I think this is the most sensible thing you have typed thus far.

Hah. Most sensible thing, eh? I figured most people don't even think about this at all...they scream "You're girly!" or "You're boyish!" without even giving it a second thought.
Hm. So by using this simple deduction...(yes, SIMPLE), I have been able to extract all general common society stereotypes of both genders and use them efficiently. Which typically means I can act as either gender undetected, lols. (Though I did get caught once, I admit. Slipped.)
But get this: It doesn't mean I can feel like both genders...just act and think.
(Hah, I just thought this was fun to share...might come in handy some day...)

As usual, anyone's opinions are welcome.

 

[zumorikato]

O___O


Selfishness is desire since you begin by wanting something, then going for it. Desire is the basis for selfishness, no matter how you look at it.
Then again, human nature is still desire. Selfishness as a driving emotion all begins with desire. The basic foundation is still desire no matter how far you stretch its roots.

No, desire is being selfish when wanting something. As soon as you insert desire into the equation you only get the "I, Me ,Mine" factor with what ever it is that you want to obtain. No, selfishness can act with or without desire. I can be selfish without wanting anything in return. I dont have to give the beggar in the street a coin. That have got jack sh!t to do with me not desiring to give him a coin does it? So if desire is the fundamental bases of selfishness, then selfishness is not supposed to be able to operate without desire, as I stated above you can be selfish without desiring anything in return. And I used desire in the sense that you indicated in your post : "To impress others or benefit yourself (which still sums to human nature of desire)"

So please tell me how do I benefit myself be not giving to a beggar money, or please tell me how do I impress others by not giving money to a beggar?

I don't detest love since male and female were born for another, naturally. But then again, love starts with desire. Didn't I say that you want that person as a first? The true meaning of love is to give and not expect something in return. I've heard this so many times, whether in anime, movies, novels...etc. I can't say I disagree with this, but I have to say, if this is a true, then it becomes a point where both lovers have set their desire at a balanced point in where they are both confident that the other won't ditch/betray them. (Sadly, this doesn't happen a lot. That's why divorces happen)
You definitely don't say something like that on the first date.

No, wrong again. If both parties have a point where desire is balanced between them then you have already came into the relationship with a "I want something out of this" attitude. And that is exactly why I said love is giving without expecting something in return. Try it sometimes, you might find it can help you with the situations.

And yes you dont say something like that on the first date, but keep in mind you dont "LOVE" them on your first date aswell, you merely "LIKE" them, theres another difference.

Hm. That really doesn't have anything to do with what I'm saying. Driving desire? It's still all desire. Desire is a part of us: it is the foundation of human nature. If not, then where does this desire come from?

The fact that you have the ability to desire doesnt mean you need to act upon those desires TenzoX. Really, if I have the desired ability to kill somebody I dont have to act upon it inorder to feel human. That is the main point that Im trying to bring over to you. You think because you desire something you must act accordingly in order to obtain it, after achieving what you wanted you feel asif it was your desire that was the reason for your actions, and thus you base everything on desire. However you forget the part where you came right without desiring it in the first place.

Desire comes from "wanting" something in a "selfish" nature. You dont desire to climb out of bed. ~.~ So no, your thoughts arent all driven by desire.

What? O_____O I never said anything about being impressed...(I don't want to go deeper than this since I really do hate being blunt...~_~) It was general thinking. Why do you disagree with it? Think of it: Why did I even post this entire thread? Desire. I wanted people to look at it and give me their opinions. I WANTED.

~.~ I wasnt talking about you being impressed. I was referring to me ~.~

Yes you wanted, but you forget there is other people in this discussion not just you. Thats exactly what Im trying to tell you, your desire is because of selfish reasoning, you wanted to post this thread to get peoples opinions, that is fine, but you applied selfish actions towards your "wanting" that drove your desire to post this thread. Do you understand why I say that you totally forgot about what the rest of the people want from this, and only thought of what you want, that my friend is a form of selfishness you even indicated it clearly above, its what you want not about sharing information finding other peoples reasoning, go back to the first part of this post and read the part where I talk about the I/Me/Mine. And thats why I say that you are mistakingly thinking that desire is the drive that controls your actions!

You teenagers? O__O You've gone past your teenage years, lol? (Take a guess on how old I am...bid you luck, ) Narrow-minded? I highly doubt you haven't checked yourself out in the mirror before.
OK - so you said that some people do it to cover their shame? Then there is a two-way connection here. 1. Yes, to hide their shame...but from what? Other people! They don't want to get embarassed by whatever reason and they want to look good in front of other person - for their benefit. Hm. Desire. O_O

Sad to say Im past those years, thats beside the point, you talked about teenagers, I merely replied on that. Your age matters not to this discussion as we are both equal in having the ability to think, and type on a keyboard, so I dont concern myself with your age. I do have to agree that there is some validation to your point. But to take it a step further and this is what I actually wanted to, lets take the beggar example again. Why do a beggar cover his shame with what ever he can lets say cardboard boxes, broken, ripped to part cloths? Is it to impress Other people? Do they care about embarrassment? I really think your sadly mistaking if you think that he is going to benefit from it, I mean hes a beggar for crying out load. SO no, not all individuals where cloths because they desire something, really.

Shit, yeah. O_O Oops. Though I wouldn't say that every single society environments differ from country to country...there's always that basic foundation.

Agreed, they do share certain similarities. ; )

Hah. Most sensible thing, eh? I figured most people don't even think about this at all...they scream "You're girly!" or "You're boyish!" without even giving it a second thought.
Hm. So by using this simple deduction...(yes, SIMPLE), I have been able to extract all general common society stereotypes of both genders and use them efficiently. Which typically means I can act as either gender undetected, lols. (Though I did get caught once, I admit. Slipped.)
But get this: It doesn't mean I can feel like both genders...just act and think.
(Hah, I just thought this was fun to share...might come in handy some day...)

As usual, anyone's opinions are welcome.

I really dont see why you have such an issue bro, you need to build that bridge and get over it, and forget about others opinions, that same "desire" that drives you out your bed every morning, could easily be used to overcome this problem. You can just throw your hands in the air and say, I dont care about others opinions, its only myne that counts! LOL

Nice talking to you but I grow tired of this conversation. You can respond if you want to, but sadly I will not. I have said what I wanted to, its now up to you to either take it, apply it or reject it and let it go.

Cheers
Z

 

[zumorikato]

Hah. Ok. It was interesting anyways and most people do get bored after a while...
Hm - as for my age, I'll let you know I just turned 15 less than a month ago.

Tired anyways. I'll keep your insights in mind...they were very helpful...
Thanks bro.

Glad I provided you with some info. Happy late birthday. xd

Enjoyed talking to you but one needs to move to more pressing matters at hand ; )

Peace out!