Kaguya's Battle Tactics Re-Examined!

[Hyuga Prodigy]

Kaguya was just shock value and poorly written.

By the end of the manga, we wanted answers to plotholes not more mysteries.

Madara had dialogue and connection with Naruto/Sasuke on a contemporary level, Kaguya didn't.

Kaguya was awful and ruined the entire series. How are you defending this?

Madara had dialogue and connection with Naruto and Sasuke which was always been given since the end of Part 1 but everything has been settled and nothing more for the past 400+ chapters, which I don`t find it particularly interesting because I know what`s going to go down, I`m the type of guy who`s more into mysteries and shock value and yes Kaguya does have to do with this mess, Naruto Vs Sasuke and everything that happen in the War all happened Because of BZ who was being ordered by Kaguya to revive her. Naruto and Sasuke and Hashirama vs Madara are the product of Kaguya revival.

The main point about this series is about stopping the war which was what Kaguya intended not repeating the same cycle as Indra vs Asuhra which Hagoromo had no reason why it all happens...

 

[Scryed]

Madara, Obito, Naruto, and Sasuke had less than a day of experience with that kind of power and yet they managed. Kaguya had years of experience with that kind of power but she had little opposition. Practically no one could've opposed her so I doubt she ever had to use her full power in the past.

She absorbed the Shinju and then gave rise to the Juubi (Kaguya/Shinju). Although that was Kaguya's body, it seemed that her mind itself was sealed within while the Ten Tails only acted on her will (to take back her chakra) and rampaged. Hagoromo and Hamura having fought a much more powerful Ten Tails (Her chakra hadn't been spread accross the world until after Hagoromo became Juubi Jin so it had her full chakra besides Hagoromo's and Hamura's)




In the end, although she did have tactics (she was leader of a clan), it wasn't to a great extent although calling her braindead is stupid as well.

Having tactics is one thing and knowing how to use your power is another. Kaguya had average tactics IMO but she knew how to use her overwhelming power which puts her above everyone else.

Knowledge is also important which she lacked when it came to the modern shinobi. BZ was there for that though.


Her planning skills aren't half bad though. Apparently she was the one who giving BZ instructions to ensure her restoration somehow.

 

[SatanicGod]

i agree.


OT: Do you know why most people prefer Madara to Kaguya? It isn't so much that she is a brainless chakra sucking monster of a rabbit goddess.

It's that she was introduced out of nowhere at the end of the Manga. Had she been foreshadowed and mentioned like Madara was-or even if Black Zetsu acquiesced to not being Madara's will and more of an old mysterious advisor to Madara aiding him in his goal all along while having his own agenda-we might not have had such a hard time swallowing her appearance.

"all chakra belongs to me" is a very bland and contrived motivation for her existance. Even by Shounen standards.

I've been saying she was foreshadowed in Part 1 Chuunin Exams but... :bdpf:

 

[SatanicGod]

XD only the "I agree" part was in response to your original post.

The "OT" (Other Topic) was just my 2 cents in general as it pertains to the subject matter of the thread.:flakez:

OT means On Topic...

 

[SatanicGod]

Good thread.

That's the point tho. Her existence wasn't supposed to be known. Well something was hinted at least . Hashirama sensed something at VOTE and don't you find it weird that a peaceful sage would leave behind instructions to cast the world into an eternal genjutsu?
That wasn't her main goal. It was building an army to fight momoshiki. She wanted her chakra back so she can be at full strength when she fights him.

Idk what Viz says, but I saw a translation state that she wanted the chakra in order to give to her two children

 

[TimothyTheTomato]

Kaguya should've took over madara by seducing him in his mind while the fight isn't going his way and than have black zetsu finish
We saw her do this by telling him to absorb the tree but it should've continued and in a way where kaguya seems seductive, it would make her being caught off gaurf by sexy jutsu. I agree that Kaguya isn't as dumb as people make her seem

 

[Ansatsuken]

Good thread OP.

 

[NextGenNinja]

Meh. I rate her tactics a C+. Still nothing to the hidden leafs number 1 tactician.

 

[Blackdeath667]

Awesome thread, to sum up all what was mentioned I try to split good sides of Kaguya and bad sides. NOT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT USE OF KAGUYA LATE IN STORY AS GOOD MOVE OR NO, just her battle tactics, diversions, use of raw power and skills in general.

GOOD SIDES:

1. A lot of raw power to spend
2. Fast making decision and learning from her own mistakes
3. Hax and deadly skills
4. Quite a long time since she has fought/used her power.

BAD SIDES:

1. To much hestistant to kill threat instead of absorbing chakra
2. Understimating opponents
3. not getting any black zetsu experience of how shinobi are fighting
4. depending on Black Zetsu while he was just nuinsance.
5. letting opponent to recover at early stage of battle
6. Being power hungry decrease her efficency while she was not too much focused.
7. Spamming chakra taxing attacks too much, she would rather try to conserve it.
8. She should deal with other guys earlier so Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't be that much efficient. (PLOT INDUCED STUPIDITY)

All in all I think it was more metter of plot induced stupidity, miracles for good characters, nerfing main villain and the last most imporant to prove theme of teamwork being above greater power.

this right here

 

[ninjarasengan]

Awesome thread, to sum up all what was mentioned I try to split good sides of Kaguya and bad sides. NOT I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT USE OF KAGUYA LATE IN STORY AS GOOD MOVE OR NO, just her battle tactics, diversions, use of raw power and skills in general.

GOOD SIDES:

1. A lot of raw power to spend
2. Fast making decision and learning from her own mistakes
3. Hax and deadly skills
4. Quite a long time since she has fought/used her power.

BAD SIDES:

1. To much hestistant to kill threat instead of absorbing chakra
2. Understimating opponents
3. not getting any black zetsu experience of how shinobi are fighting
4. depending on Black Zetsu while he was just nuinsance.
5. letting opponent to recover at early stage of battle
6. Being power hungry decrease her efficency while she was not too much focused.
7. Spamming chakra taxing attacks too much, she would rather try to conserve it.
8. She should deal with other guys earlier so Naruto and Sasuke wouldn't be that much efficient. (PLOT INDUCED STUPIDITY)

All in all I think it was more metter of plot induced stupidity, miracles for good characters, nerfing main villain and the last most imporant to prove theme of teamwork being above greater power.

3--Disagree with this...she didn't really need it...her real downfall was because her opponents kept developing new abilities mid-battle...you can't plan for something like that.

4--Bz may have annoyed the readers but he was valuable and one of those times he offered her advice she said she already knew...the other she thought over it before actually listening to him.

7--Didn't really spam...she used taxing abilities when she found herself about to get sealed.


Eight was critical...but then again...when she went for the kill she was trying to get rid of a seal Bearer, which is the smartest choice.(With the Intel she had at the point)

The rest

 

[Lightbringer]

Madara had dialogue and connection with Naruto and Sasuke which was always been given since the end of Part 1 but everything has been settled and nothing more for the past 400+ chapters, which I don`t find it particularly interesting because I know what`s going to go down, I`m the type of guy who`s more into mysteries and shock value and yes Kaguya does have to do with this mess, Naruto Vs Sasuke and everything that happen in the War all happened Because of BZ who was being ordered by Kaguya to revive her. Naruto and Sasuke and Hashirama vs Madara are the product of Kaguya revival.

The main point about this series is about stopping the war which was what Kaguya intended not repeating the same cycle as Indra vs Asuhra which Hagoromo had no reason why it all happens...

Again, she ruined the series and more mysteries do not make the manga better. There were still plenty of mysteries that haven't been solved that should have been or could have been done better and Kaguya just added more to the mess.

Like I've said, added mysteries should not exist at the end of the manga because it is concluding. You got what you wanted and look how bad that turned out to be.

 

[Hyuga Prodigy]

Again, she ruined the series and more mysteries do not make the manga better. There were still plenty of mysteries that haven't been solved that should have been or could have been done better and Kaguya just added more to the mess.

Like I've said, added mysteries should not exist at the end of the manga because it is concluding. You got what you wanted and look how bad that turned out to be.

Umm care to explain what other mystery before the introduction of Kaguya because clearly ever since we got the full picture of Madara and Hashirama flashback, there was none other than to intrigue the reader what's behind the tale sage of 6th path incidents.

Everything correlates to the monument stone which what triggers Madara to become in this mess and remember it always brings the question why would Hagoromo who claimed to be so heroic intend to write in the Archaeology to go against his own ideology but then we come to find out that BZ was the one pulling the strings and I find this as an epic plot twist.

So yeah Kaguya ruined it "For you" but for me this series is always better with mysteries which what makes this series even better. If there's no mysteries for the last 100 chapters before this series ended, then everything would just be plain and generic and the fight would be underwhelming when we know Naruto and Sasuke would apparently defeat Madara who doesn't poses much threat after receiving powerups which is so predictable because we almost know everything about Madara however when it comes to Kaguya fight; It might come off that the fight was so rushed and anticlimatic due to Kishi time constraint to end his series at 700; but atleast there's is still something we don't know what to expect because Kaguya poses much bigger threat than Madara. Kaguya character traits are too bland and boring to you but I find her to be interesting because her backstory seems so perplexing and dark which fits the tone of her character.

I also like her to be stoic and give remain minimal dialogue instead of revealing too much of her personality because that would ruined the mysterious vibe of this historic figure and it will be awkard if she talks too much during the fight and then Naruto making of his TNJ.

We still don't know what Kaguya motives are but it's gonna answer in the Boruto Movie...

 

[Lightbringer]

Umm care to explain what other mystery before the introduction of Kaguya because clearly ever since we got the full picture of Madara and Hashirama flashback, there was none other than to intrigue the reader what's behind the tale sage of 6th path incidents.

Everything correlates to the monument stone which what triggers Madara to become in this mess and remember it always brings the question why would Hagoromo who claimed to be so heroic intend to write in the Archaeology to go against his own ideology but then we come to find out that BZ was the one pulling the strings and I find this as an epic plot twist.

So yeah Kaguya ruined it "For you" but for me this series is always better with mysteries which what makes this series even better. If there's no mysteries for the last 100 chapters before this series ended, then everything would just be plain and generic and the fight would be underwhelming when we know Naruto and Sasuke would apparently defeat Madara who doesn't poses much threat after receiving powerups which is so predictable because we almost know everything about Madara however when it comes to Kaguya fight; It might come off that the fight was so rushed and anticlimatic due to Kishi time constraint to end his series at 700; but atleast there's is still something we don't know what to expect because Kaguya poses much bigger threat than Madara. Kaguya character traits are too bland and boring to you but I find her to be interesting because her backstory seems so perplexing and dark which fits the tone of her character.

I also like her to be stoic and give remain minimal dialogue instead of revealing too much of her personality because that would ruined the mysterious vibe of this historic figure and it will be awkard if she talks too much during the fight and then Naruto making of his TNJ.

We still don't know what Kaguya motives are but it's gonna answer in the Boruto Movie...

Well until the databook was released, we had no idea what Shinju was nor what happened to Hamura.

Then Orochimaru's motives were unclear.

The connection between Spiral Zetsu and Obito and why did Obito act like him even in front of Zetsu.

It was never explained what the new unique power that the EMS unlocks was (as stated by Itachi, no it was not eternal light).

The mystery behind Hashirama's death.

Mystery of Uzumaki's annihilation.

There were more that I can't recall.



There are only a few people that liked Kaguya and the ending for whatever reason. Not to be mean, but you have poor taste if you think that made the manga better or you thought her character was good. You can't have a good character that says nothing, has no real motive, or has little to no connection to the protagonists.

There were minor characters (like Ao) that had more development and dialogue than Kaguya (who was the final villain of the manga). That is the very indication of terrible writing.

 

[Hyuga Prodigy]

Well until the databook was released, we had no idea what Shinju was nor what happened to Hamura.

Then Orochimaru's motives were unclear.

The connection between Spiral Zetsu and Obito and why did Obito act like him even in front of Zetsu.

It was never explained what the new unique power that the EMS unlocks was (as stated by Itachi, no it was not eternal light).

The mystery behind Hashirama's death.

Mystery of Uzumaki's annihilation.

There were more that I can't recall.



There are only a few people that liked Kaguya and the ending for whatever reason. Not to be mean, but you have poor taste if you think that made the manga better or you thought her character was good. You can't have a good character that says nothing, has no real motive, or has little to no connection to the protagonists.

There were minor characters (like Ao) that had more development and dialogue than Kaguya (who was the final villain of the manga). That is the very indication of terrible writing.

Orochimaru is irrelavent and has nothing to do with the main event of this war.

Spiral Zetsu is Tobi, we already know the connection with Obito...

Every EMS users have different ocular power. Madara and Sasuke have different set of sharigan capabilities and their tomoes design are different , Madara explained about sasuke choku tomoe which he can only posses amatarsu. Simply put it gives you enhance power to evolve something even better like Perfect Susanoo. Sasuke with EMS has been show to easily manupilate his amatarsu into a sword, or Susanoo Kagutsuchi, etc.


Hashirama death was definately a mystery but it was never expected to be important


All these mysteries you listed are either non-factor to the main Plot or it's been answered which already fulfilled. The only mystery that I agree which should've been explain is the Uzumaki annihilation.


Of course you would say I have bad taste because I'm one of the "minority" to like Kaguya and of course she has no development when Kaguya was revived at the end of this series but Kishi was forced by Shonen Jump to end his series at 700 which is why it was so rushed but you're wrong, Kaguya displayed traits and some dialogues as well as motives which was clearly havn't been answered yet but you want to jump off the fact that she has no intention. Kaguya comes as the most popular historical figure in Japan and inspired many authors to reference her by implementing into the series. Knowing Kaguya has somber backstory, she definitely gonna be realistic once that's gonna explain in the Boruto Movie, and yes I'm fan of Kaguya in general which is why I'm interested with her in many different series.

I'm one of those people who have been invested predicted kaguya to be the final villain, I took my time and research based on the philosophy and mythology and compare within the concept of this series.

 

[Lightbringer]

Orochimaru is irrelavent and has nothing to do with the main event of this war.

Spiral Zetsu is Tobi, we already know the connection with Obito...

Every EMS users have different ocular power. Madara and Sasuke have different set of sharigan capabilities and their tomoes design are different , Madara explained about sasuke choku tomoe which he can only posses amatarsu. Simply put it gives you enhance power to evolve something even better like Perfect Susanoo. Sasuke with EMS has been show to easily manupilate his amatarsu into a sword, or Susanoo Kagutsuchi, etc.


Hashirama death was definately a mystery but it was never expected to be important


All these mysteries you listed are either non-factor to the main Plot or it's been answered which already fulfilled. The only mystery that I agree which should've been explain is the Uzumaki annihilation.


Of course you would say I have bad taste because I'm one of the "minority" to like Kaguya and of course she has no development when Kaguya was revived at the end of this series but Kishi was forced by Shonen Jump to end his series at 700 which is why it was so rushed but you're wrong, Kaguya displayed traits and some dialogues as well as motives which was clearly havn't been answered yet but you want to jump off the fact that she has no intention. Kaguya comes as the most popular historical figure in Japan and inspired many authors to reference her by implementing into the series. Knowing Kaguya has somber backstory, she definitely gonna be realistic once that's gonna explain in the Boruto Movie, and yes I'm fan of Kaguya in general which is why I'm interested with her in many different series.

Still those were mysteries and plotholes that were more interesting than Kaguya.

It was a show about ninjas and it turned into a show about Gods and Goddesses. I've read better fanfiction than the final arc of the manga.

The Juubi would have been better off if it remained as a primordial being beyond comprehension.

A movie is no excuse to leave manga plotholes.

Kaguya being an important icon doesn't mean she had to be a poorly written villain. I would rather have Kishi expand upon the mythology behind Indra and Ashura.

If you're part of a minority that likes something that's widely regarded as awful, then I don't how else to define that other than having poor taste.

Nagato was a good and well written villain, Kaguya was not.

 

[Hyuga Prodigy]

Still those were mysteries and plotholes that were more interesting than Kaguya.

It was a show about ninjas and it turned into a show about Gods and Goddesses. I've read better fanfiction than the final arc of the manga.

The Juubi would have been better off if it remained as a primordial being beyond comprehension.

A movie is no excuse to leave manga plotholes.

Kaguya being an important icon doesn't mean she had to be a poorly written villain. I would rather have Kishi expand upon the mythology behind Indra and Ashura.

If you're part of a minority that likes something that's widely regarded as awful, then I don't how else to define that other than having poor taste.

Nagato was a good and well written villain, Kaguya was not.

The BOLDS are just your opinions and nothing more. It still doesn't change the fact that there are some mysteries revolving the main plot needs to tie loose.

I didn't say Kaguya being a focal figure is a bad written character now did I?? That's your opinion once again, like I said, I find her characteristic wise to be intriguing and the amount of intimidating she posses; Kaguya says she definately motivation when she says something along the line with "this earth is my precious nursery" or building white zetsu army but just because it didn't explain doesn't necessary mean she's a bad villain. If she has no real motives, then she is a bad written villain but we do know she has one, it's a matter of time that we don't know.

And yes I prefer to explain everything in Kaguya arc since it's gonna make Kaguya look better and the plot even better , but atleast it's gonna tie up this loose ending in the movie. It's always better to be late than never.