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Ansatsuken

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I think Rinnegan Genjutsu works differently than Sharingan Genjutsu.

Rinnegan Genjutsu can paralyze the victim and control them but no illusion.

Sharingan Genjutsu create illusion and control all the 5 senses of victim.


So here what happened with Rinn-Sharingan:

-Rinnegan Genjutsu power worked to paralyze and control the victim whilst Sharingan Genjutsu power worked to create illusion/dream.
 
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salamander uchiha

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Rinne-Sharingan, which we know has the powers of both Dojutsu, was used to cast Genjutsu. If tomoe-less Rinnegan could use Sharingan abilities then there would be no point for Tomoe Rinnegan and Rinne-Sharingan.
Look the point of Rinne sharingan was to reflect the light or to reach the moon, even no Tomoe Rinnegan can cast genjutsu, which is why Madara was shown doing it. Go back to Gaiden and remember these scenes. Consider for a moment Sasuke when he has tomoe in the Rinnegan all it indicates is chakra reserves level. When he regains them he also regains his EMS, however his 3T is still active meaning the Rinnegan is still equal to the 3T sharingan. And 3T Sharingan can Sharingan genjutsu, it's also why Sasuke can still use Ameno against Shin Sr. If he can do that then he can still use it's abilities, he only can't use EMS(PS level chakra consuming abilties). So yes, it can cast genjutsu.

The problem with early Madara was because he had a false Rinnegan, he couldn't use Limbo, or summon the Gedo, so it is also why he couldn't use the genjutsu. With the real one he could use the 6 paths and the original powers.
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I think Rinnegan Genjutsu works differently than Sharingan Genjutsu.

Rinnegan Genjutsu can paralyze the victim and control them but no illusion.

Sharingan Genjutsu create illusion and control all the 5 senses of victim.


So here what happened with Rinn-Sharingan:

-Rinnegan Genjutsu power worked to paralyze and control the victim whilst Sharingan Genjutsu power worked to create illusion/dream.
Interesting concept, but didn't Sasuke use Rinnegan genjutsu on Sakura when he put her out? That affected her 5 senses, no?
 

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Look the point of Rinne sharingan was to reflect the light or to reach the moon, even no Tomoe Rinnegan can cast genjutsu, which is why Madara was shown doing it. Go back to Gaiden and remember these scenes. Consider for a moment Sasuke when he has tomoe in the Rinnegan all it indicates is chakra reserves level. When he regains them he also regains his EMS, however his 3T is still active meaning the Rinnegan is still equal to the 3T sharingan. And 3T Sharingan can Sharingan genjutsu, it's also why Sasuke can still use Ameno against Shin Sr. If he can do that then he can still use it's abilities, he only can't use EMS(PS level chakra consuming abilties). So yes, it can cast genjutsu.

The problem with early Madara was because he had a false Rinnegan, he couldn't use Limbo, or summon the Gedo, so it is also why he couldn't use the genjutsu. With the real one he could use the 6 paths and the original powers.
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Interesting concept, but didn't Sasuke use Rinnegan genjutsu on Sakura when he put her out? That affected her 5 senses, no?
I think it's the work of 6 Tomoes Sharingan power or to simplify it, Sharingan based Genjutsu. Sasuke casted an illusion on Sakura which seen like he's attacking Sakura and the effect of the illusion knocked Sakura out of her consciousness.
 
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As you said, he used it even without eyes so what makes you think he specifically used it with his Rinnegan? His use of it isn't dependant on the eyes so there's no telling that he used his eyes for it when he had them.

And even if he did, that's one ability. With Genjutsu he needed to switch.
It isn't specifically tied to his Rinnegan, yet having Rinnegan doesn't make you entirely unable to Susano'o either. You originally stated that "Tomoe-Less Rinnegan can't use Sharingan abilities" which is inaccurate in this case as Susano'o is first unlocked through the Sharingan when it matures into a Mangekyou Sharingan by releasing special chakra from their brains. Tobirama's statement gives us some interesting information regarding the evolution of the eyes.

For one we know that the power lies in their brain, not their eyes. This explains why only a pure Uchiha is able to use the eyes effectively and why the original owner is the only one able to use their own eyes to their fullest potential. The closer they are to the original owner, the closer the "link" between the chakra in the brain and the chakra in the eyes. We also know that the eyes themselves possess some power, hence my argument that when an Uchiha reaches a high emotional stage they physically mutate.

Upon losing something that means a lot to you, or being overflown with emotion of something like love, the Uchiha releases a special chakra from their brain that causes this mutation into the Sharingan. At this point the Sharingan has become a "vessel" of sorts for that chakra, an extra storage area in their body. When the Sharingan is activated by the user in combat, the chakra in those "vessels" are activated, resulting in the change in color and pattern. Nevertheless their powers such as Susano'o don't originate from their eyes, but their brains.

However, when a user loses their eyes, they also loses a lot of their chakra that was stored to be used with their eyes. However they still hold the power to use their powers somewhat as seen with Madara. This allows them to use a weaker variant of their full abilities or in certain cases not use their abilities at all if they rely on eyesight, which all known techniques excluding Obito's "phase" ability does. Also, what Genjutsu are you referring to? Infinite Tsukuyomi? That can only be case with the Rinne-Sharingan, not the Rinnegan, but it can be countered by the Rinnegan and Bijuu chakra.

Even Obito without Rinnegan could control and Gedo and with it he was an absolute beast and could actually employ the Gedo in combat. And Nagato's use of it pales in comparison to Obito's display. The gedo turned Nagato into a cripple, while Obito had it as his plaything.
What? Where did you get that from? Obito never controlled the Gedo without the Rinnegan, in-fact he went and got the Rinnegan specifically so he could use the Gedo in the war. When Obito and Zetsu first approached Yahiko, Nagato and Konan the following was said by Zetsu

Nagato is of Senju Bloodline. And the only other person in addition to Madara who can summon the Gedo Statue.
- Black Zetsu​

While Madara himself stated the following to Obito when he explained the plan and the requirements for it to work properly:

The Rinnegan cannot be awakened without possessing both Uchiha and Senju powers. And the Statue cannot be easily handled. You have Senju Cells attached to the right half of you... Even if you never awaken the Rinnegan, you ought to be able to control the statue.
- Madara Uchiha​

The two combined put out a few things. First is that the Rinnegan is required in order to summon the Gedo Statue. The second is that in order to fully control the statue, one needs the powers of both the Senju and Uchiha. As mentioned earlier, Obito wasn't in Madara's plans originally, and him having Senju DNA over half his body certainly wasn't part of the plan. It was done on a whim because it was "good enough" and Madara didn't want to wait anymore. He even admits that he should perhaps have waited until Sasuke was born.

So this means that in order for someone to control the Gedo Statue in order to gather all the Bijuu, someone who had Senju Power was required as Madara would give them the Uchiha powers through the Rinngan he would give them as they needed that in order to summon the Gedo Statue itself. Which is why Nagato was chosen as any other candidate was likely too old or too difficult to manipulate.

This is nonsense, he mentioned he could barely handle one's power
You know you just called my quote "nonsense" then went ahead and re-quoted the exact same thing word for word, right? Anyhow. It isn't nonsense as you demonstrated with the panel.

Obito has Senju DNA, rokudo rods and has Uchiha blood, yet this is what was happening to him. He even mentioned he
couldn't implant 2. This clearly tells you Madara's eyes power is too strong even for Obito with his buffs and blood.
As the panel (and my quote said earlier) says, he was starting to lose himself, he hadn't done so yet but could feel he was slipping away and being overtaken by the power with just one eye. This implies a progress, not an instant loss of oneself. Meaning it is not clear whenever or not Obito would be able to control both eyes for a set amount of time or not. Judging by his wording its more likely that he would be able to use both, but for a severely limited amount of time before losing himself entirely to them. Neither scenario is made clear by him, only that he didn't want to risk it by taking both eyes as he could already start to feel the side-effects of one.

And Sasuke confirming anybody(non Uchiha or senju) could use his tells you his is inferior.
This... Isn't accurate and is overreaching. Sasuke doesn't explain if there are any side-effects to this like what Obito explained. As he doesn't explain it and we don't see it, then its unclear whenever or not it would have side-effects or not. Hence it isn't set in stone and at best would be a theory. That being said, we know that Madara's Rinnegan was a "deviation" of Hagoromo's chakra where as Sasuke's is the pure chakra of Hagoromo. Both Rinnegan also possess the same amounts of powers, each having their own unique power in form of Limbo and Heavenly Hand Power. The only difference in display between the two different variants is the size of each technique displayed.

For example, Madara created more and larger Chibaku Tensei meteors than what Sasuke was able to do. This argument doesn't hold a lot of water as it can be explained in more than one way. Such as Madara simply being in possession of more chakra and we know from Nagato's statement that performing the Chibaku Tensei, a massive amount of chakra is required. Another argument is that Sasuke simply didn't need bigger seals on the Bijuu than what he did. Hence he didn't make them bigger. Point being, you can argue away this one instance in multiple ways, meaning it isn't a good source for evidence against another argument.

It's true that Susanoo can be used without eyes, but that's a Madara feat. As for the perfect Susanoo nobody has used it without eyes, and Sasuke linked his inability to use it to his chakra.
I assume you are referring to Sasuke from the Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring scene where he comments;

I'm taking all of us there. Since my ocular powers are finally coming back. Searching for and entering Kaguya's time-space... Requires a lot of chakra.
- Sasuke Uchiha​

At which point Sasuke activates Susano'o. This isn't something new though. The use of techniques require chakra and if you lack said chakra you cannot use said technique. That being said, even without his Tomoe and EMS being able to activate against Shin, he was still able to use Heavenly Hand Power to teleport in the short fight with Shin. We also see during his fight with Naruto that even with his Rinnegan and chakra in a weakened state he was still able to use Preta Path. Hence these abilities either don't require a lot of chakra or he still had more than enough chakra for them to be used.

On top of that, the Susano'o is the user's chakra that has taken physical form. It is a Ninjutsu technique that is derived from the Mangekyou Sharingan specifically. When Sasuke mentioned he was out of chakra in the Scarlet Spring, he was also incapable of using his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, only using his Three-Tomoe Sharingan. Upon regaining chakra his tomoe in the Rinnegan reappeared and his EMS turn on again. This falls in line with what we know about the Sharingan, that it drains chakra from the user.

Likely to replace "its storage" as it is being used and the more chakra you have and more control you have over this chakra, the less of a problem it is unless you use extremely taxing technique. That being said, we know for a fact that the Sharingan "drains" chakra from the user. This implies that the Sharingan has some form of chakra itself and uses that up, thus needing to be refilled like a glass of water. This is filled from the user's own pool, which can result in death if over-used just like any Chakra techniques. This is also backed up by Tobirama's statement that the chakra to manifest the Sharingan originally comes from the brain of the user.

This in turn means that the chakra that is being used to do techniques such as Amaterasu or Susano'o comes from the brain, not eyes. We can theorize as to why a given eye can use a given ability though. We know that the Uchiha doesn't have to preform handsigns to use their techniques, only doing so when they want to control them better or use them at a higher level. This means that at some point inbetween their brain and eye, their physical and spiritual powers are molded together naturally and thus don't require handsigns to focus that effort.

Hence the eyes likely work as an automated function that molds the chakra into a specific technique as it drains it from the host. Which would also explains the user's inherit knowledge of their techniques from the moment they get them. As Susano'o isn't tied to either eye, but both, and it is just pure chakra then its more than reasonable to say that anyone who has the chakra required to use it can do so without their eyes. Though without having their eyes as a "focus" they power becomes far weaker.
 

salamander uchiha

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Sorry bruh, I don't have time to type out walls of texts to rebuke head canon. Therefore, I will just lay out the facts as they are.

Fact one Madara said he would be able to resonate with the gedo eventually, because to resonate with the mezo all that is required is rokudo chakra.

Fact two, he didn't need the rinnegan for that. Madara's statement confirms the possibility for it. Since his statement is(paraphrased) even if Obito doesn't awaken the rinnegan he would still be able to control the mezo.

Fact three, Obito never said he was retrieving the rinnegan to control the mezo, and neither did he inply it.

Fact four, Obito needed the rinnegan to use the ten tails coffin seal(seal the ten tails), a rinnegan jutsu. That is the actual reason for retriecing the rinnegan.

Fact five, Madara taught Obito how to use the 6 paths techniques without either of them possessing a rinnegan. That included shadow and light style. That means both could use them without having the rinnegan.

Fact six, Obito confirmed he was losing himself to the chakra and power of Madara's rinnegan(1), then went onto stress how dangerous both eyes are together. And that even he with all his power ups(RSM, senju chakra, 6paths chakra and Uchiha blood) could barely handle one.

Fact six, Sasuke said anybody could use his Rinnegan. Sasuke knows tge power output pf his rinnegan, and knows what anybody(average joe) can do.

I don't need to really explain the implications of either point or statement.

I think it's the work of 6 Tomoes Sharingan power or to simplify it, Sharingan based Genjutsu. Sasuke casted an illusion on Sakura which seen like he's attacking Sakura and the effect of the illusion knocked Sakura out of her consciousness.
That's just it, the sharingan power is projection right? Projects genjutsu, projects amaetrasu, Kamui, flame control etc. Now when the sharingan becomes a rinnegan their owner uses two new projected jutsu Ameno in Sasuke's case and limbo in Madara's.

The problem is Sasuke confimred the tomoe disappearing was for chakra drain, and not for projwction ability. Sasuke could still use Ameno without them(against shin) and therfore should be able to use genjutsu, no?

Kishi's messed up or sewn a little confusion, imo.
 
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I think Rinnegan Genjutsu works differently than Sharingan Genjutsu.

Rinnegan Genjutsu can paralyze the victim and control them but no illusion.

Sharingan Genjutsu create illusion and control all the 5 senses of victim.


So here what happened with Rinn-Sharingan:

-Rinnegan Genjutsu power worked to paralyze and control the victim whilst Sharingan Genjutsu power worked to create illusion/dream.
Both the Rinnegan and Sharingan can paralyze the victim, remember when Edo Madara was killing the allied ninja with taijutsu and kenjutsu and he used 3T genjutsu to stop one of the shinobi from slicing him half? If not, look below:
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There is no difference between the type of genjutsu that either doujutsu use, it’s just that Rinnegan genjutsu is of a different caliber than all sharingan genjutsu. It lasts until the caster decides otherwise, no one can free themselves and no one without a Rinnegan can free someone trapped in a Rinnegan genjutsu.
 

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Both the Rinnegan and Sharingan can paralyze the victim, remember when Edo Madara was killing the allied ninja with taijutsu and kenjutsu and he used 3T genjutsu to stop one of the shinobi from slicing him half? If not, look below:
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There is no difference between the type of genjutsu that either doujutsu use, it’s just that Rinnegan genjutsu is of a different caliber than all sharingan genjutsu. It lasts until the caster decides otherwise, no one can free themselves and no one without a Rinnegan can free someone trapped in a Rinnegan genjutsu.
It could be. But I think he's more of looking surprised than paralyzed. Sharingan can give you scary illusion.
 
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Fact one Madara said he would be able to resonate with the gedo eventually, because to resonate with the mezo all that is required is rokudo chakra.
To Summon the Gedo, a Rinnegan is required. To control it Senju power is required. The Rinnegan is the manifestation of both Uchiha and Senju Power as far as Madara believed. This proves to be inaccurate as it is the result of Indra and Asura chakra, which is why Obito never awakened the Rinnegan himself.

Madara also never said that Obito would be able to "resonate with the Gedo eventually". He said that he would outright be able to control the Gedo thanks to the Senju DNA on his body. There wasn't an "eventually" in his dialogue. He simply said that if the time comes then Obito would be able to control the Gedo Statue. You are filling the dialogue with words to benefit your argument at this point.

Fact two, he didn't need the rinnegan for that. Madara's statement confirms the possibility for it. Since his statement is(paraphrased) even if Obito doesn't awaken the rinnegan he would still be able to control the mezo.

Fact three, Obito never said he was retrieving the rinnegan to control the mezo, and neither did he inply it.
In order to Summon the Gedo Statue, the Rinnegan is required as stated by Madara. He stated that he was only able to summon the Gedo after obtaining the Rinnegan and undoing the Seal in the moon. The Summoning: Gedo Statue is also noted to be a power of the Outer Path.

The Gedo Statue is also named after the Rinnegan, being name; "Demonic Statue of the Outer Path". The word "外道" or Gedō mean "Outer Road" or "Outer Path".

When Madara summons the Gedo Statue to fight the Bijuu they are shocked that "he was able to summon that with a fake Edo Tensei Rinnegan" which they are later corrected on by the Two-Tails, stating he is now alive and that is a real Rinnegan. They are some of the very few beings in the world that know about the Rinnegan's power and there is nothing to indicate that they are wrong. We have also never seen the Gedo being summoned without the Rinnegan.

The Chains used to restrain and seal the Bijuu are also a Rinnegan Technique. While there doesn't exist a single piece of evidence that the Rinnegan is required to force the Gedo to move around, you cannot fully control it without the Rinnegan as you cannot use its unique properties or even get it out of the cave it is within without having the Rinnegan. Obito went to retrieve the Rinnegan because he cannot fully use the Statue without it. Madara's statement simply stated that he should be able to control the Gedo even without personally awakening the Rinnegan thanks to the Senju DNA.

He isn't being specific either, making it a vague statement to derive any conclusive information from. Though as stated above we do know that the Rinnegan is required to summon and fully use the abilities of the Gedo Statue. This is backed up by multiple sources including the manga and databooks. Every single piece of evidence we have that is conclusive points towards the Rinnegan being required to fully utilize the abilities of the Gedo Statue for Obito and Madara's plan to create the Juubi.

Fact four, Obito needed the rinnegan to use the ten tails coffin seal(seal the ten tails), a rinnegan jutsu. That is the actual reason for retriecing the rinnegan.
He also needed to summon the Gedo Statue through the Outer Path in order to seal them in the first place. He also needed the Rinnegan in order to seal the remaining Bijuu down into the Statue, a plan he ended up giving up on as he gained the sealed variations of Kurama's chakra by sheer chance.

Fact five, Madara taught Obito how to use the 6 paths techniques without either of them possessing a rinnegan. That included shadow and light style. That means both could use them without having the rinnegan.
This is overreaching. Madara stated he would teach Obito how to perform "Six Paths Techniques" which can mean just about anything. We know that Rinnegan isn't required for this as seen through Naruto later. "Six Paths" refer to a chakra type, not specifically the Rinnegan itself. Madara also states that he would teach Obito "The Six Paths Jutsu" and not the overall techniques itself. This isn't conclusive in terms of really anything though. We don't know which technique he was referring to.

For all we know he could be referring to all the Rinnegan techniques so that he could teach them to Nagato. He could also be referring to the Six-Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal which is one of the few techniques specifically called "Six Paths". I find that hard to believe though as it would mean Madara would give Obito the means to overthrow him and as far as we know the technique requires the Rinnegan. However this can also imply that it doesn't require the Rinnegan, hence it isn't conclusive.

Fact six, Obito confirmed he was losing himself to the chakra and power of Madara's rinnegan(1), then went onto stress how dangerous both eyes are together. And that even he with all his power ups(RSM, senju chakra, 6paths chakra and Uchiha blood) could barely handle one.

Fact six, Sasuke said anybody could use his Rinnegan. Sasuke knows tge power output pf his rinnegan, and knows what anybody(average joe) can do.
I will repeat this once more. Obito said he was starting to lose himself, that implies a timelimit before you lose yourself entirely. Increasing the amount of eyes and therefore chakra would speed up this progress. Though we don't even know what he meant by this. Was Madara's soul going to take over his body? Would the power destroy his body like it had Nagato? Was it going to flat out kill him? It isn't conclusive and it implies a time limit. Hence there is nothing to backup the idea that no one could use Madara's Rinnegan for a limited amount of time like it was implied someone could do with Sasuke's.

That's just it, the sharingan power is projection right? Projects genjutsu, projects amaetrasu, Kamui, flame control etc. Now when the sharingan becomes a rinnegan their owner uses two new projected jutsu Ameno in Sasuke's case and limbo in Madara's.
I would just point out that Susano'o and Kagutsuchi are both Sharingan abilities that don't "project" their powers, but rather affect a already existing matter, in this case chakra. They are however the only ones I can think of that are different from the rest of the Sharingan abilities, all other being abilities that "reflect" or "project" a power outwards.

The problem is Sasuke confimred the tomoe disappearing was for chakra drain, and not for projwction ability. Sasuke could still use Ameno without them(against shin) and therfore should be able to use genjutsu, no?
While entirely confirmed by Scarlet Spring, it is a bit odd. That means that his Rinnegan without tomoe, that appears like a normal Rinnegan, is still capable of using Rinnegan techniques, he is just lacking in chakra. This is a unique trait for his eye that isn't shared with any other eyes. If an Uchiha runs out of chakra, their Sharingan deactivates as to save their lives. Sasuke still had enough chakra to maintain a Sharingan and Rinnegan, but not a EMS and Tomoe-Rinnegan.
 
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salamander uchiha

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You came back with too much head canon once again, so I'm out.

Btw, the Rinnegan is not required to control or summon the Mezo nor to control the Jyubi(advanced form of the mezo). The only time it was required was to release it from it's seal in the moon or another vessel.

I've no intention of entertaining more head canon so count me out.
 

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There would be no need to switch to EMS if Rinnegan could cast Genjutsu. Enough fanfiction.
Upon further inquiry, I realized that Madara’s clones only ever had the sharingan active, and thusly never actually switched from the Rinnegan.

Only the real Madara had the Rinnegan active, and since the clones were only using Susano’o there wasn’t a need for the Rinnegan to be active.

Chapter 578
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So that was an anime blunder :whip:
 
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