JJ Madara vs. RSM Naruto

[Uchihakil]

I'm gonna make a thread because of you naruto/sasuke fanboys aand girls who think their faves stand a chance against madara

 

[rinnegan human puppet]

How does him throwing them = different case? He throws them, they explode a hundred kilometers above him, how does he get them back if he has no control over them?

I've already answered the bolded already, he fires another volley.




There you go again with your misuse of the english language. Does understanding chakra LITERALLY have nothing to do with onmyouton?


Why is onmyouton the reason obito tanked the juubidama? The black spheres eat through anything they touch if it's not senjutsu because of onmyouton right? What happens when they don't have onmyouton? Do they all of a sudden lose the ability to do that to anything? Obviously not since he cuts through Sarutobi and his shuriken like butter, and it protects him from tobirama's attack without problems. So why wouldn't that be the mechanism in which it protects him from the juubidama?


Um, no it doesn't. You told me a difference: that one caved it in, and one expanded it. You DID NOT tell me why it mattered. So nope, explain why it matters, else it's the same as me claiming that I'm stronger than The Rock because I never acted in a movie.



Relevance to the debate: FRS gets powered up X amount by RSM, therefore Bijuudama should also get powered up by X amount by RSM since the only thing that's changing is the chakra being used for both. Therefore if FRS gets powered up by X amount, and bijuudama should as well, yet the explosion we see at VoTe differes, then the bijuudama's explosion is simply an outlier or explained away by its different appearance.

I can't literally 'prove' anything about this manga, as there's always some kind of argument that can be generated for even the most granted claims about the manga.

However, my ARGUMENT for the bolded would be simple:
1) Rasenshuriken > 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans based on the damage it did to kurama.
Each chou oodama rasengan is capable of 'hollowing out a mountain', therefore since the rasenshuriken's explosion isn't big enough to hollow out a mountain, it has to have at least that power contained in a smaller AoE in order for it to do more damage to kurama.

2) The craters it makes. FRS (even the half-completed one) creates a perfect sphereical crater, the same shape as its explosion. Normal explosions don't have the power to generate a crater as deep as the actual explosion, even when they occur below ground:

Spoiler

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Plus, there are plenty of instances where characters without super durability get caught in an explosion and come out alive, while they would have been disintegrated had they been caught in the rasenshuriken's explosion. An example is beginning of part 2 sakura eating a paper bomb or Sasuke blocking C2 with his wing, there's lots of em.

When we actually see FRS's power when it's not compressed, its explosion takes up almost half the chibaku tensei crater.


I think I made it quite clear. Rasenshuriken's power gets amplified so much that it goes from 30 meter explosion to 10+ kilometer explosion. Nothing has changed other than the RSM chakra being substituted for the normal bijuu chakra, logically the bijuudama should get the same power increase. We don't see that because the explosion at VoTe isn't a normal one, it's compressed.



Go back and reread what we are actually discussing. You were making the claim that chakra quantity is what makes Juubidara's chakra construct > Kakashi's even if both are using the same chakra. Now you are arguing something else since you're trying to make the claim that kakashi's is weaker because he mixes his own chakra into it. Which claim are you making now?




Argument: abilities clones can use are based on the skill of the clone user.
Evidence: Naruto can only use a limited amount of clones on the battlefield while some of his clones gather natural energy because gathering natural energy requires immense chakra manipulation ability and skill. During his wind training's fuuton rasengan stage, Naruto could only manage 200 clones at a time, not because of his chakra reserves (because he had them out for hours) but because of his ability with the clones didn't allow him to do that.

There you go, that's my argument and that's what it's based on. If you want to argue against that, then feel free to do so.


Yeah, so 'prove it' doesn't mean anything because no one can literally 'prove' anything about this manga. There's always a counterargument that can be made, no matter how irrational it may seem to you or me. I've given you my argument, asking for MORE evidence doesn't mean anything in regards to how true my argument is, what you need to do is go and see how the counterargument fairs against my argument. If you believe my argument to be false, what evidence do you have that debunks my own claims?


....wait, are you saying that the original naruto was the one expending the mental energy to balance the right amount of natural energy with his own while he was fighting instead of his clones? That makes even less sense than your original assertion. That's like saying that the clones don't use their own jutsu, it's the real naruto who uses the jutsu through the clones. I don't think you believe that, and if you don't then your argument isn't true since the effort to focus the sennin chakra wouldn't be on the original, it would be on the clones. Which obviously is why the mental fatigue goes to the original only after the clones poof: because the original isn't experiencing it. So nope again.



Um... this is how much of the avatar is left when mokuryu disappears:

Spoiler

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That's practically nothing, negligible, and that's after naruto has been fighting for a while in that mode, yet he still has enough chakra to maintain it and use clones, giant bijuudamas and more. So no, there's absolutely no reason naruto doesn't have the chakra capacity to make 2 clones with BM.

The bolded is just laughable, you've just sealed your own grave! If you're now saying a significant portion of the chakra naruto uses in order to use the avatar is drained as time goes on, then in no way shape or form can you claim that BM Naruto is unable to use 2 avatars since mokuryu almost completely drains his avatar, yet he uses it for chapters after as well as lots of other big jutsu, but he's also used 2 kyuubi avatars against juubito and maintained it for a while as well. So you'd have to concede that naruto would be able to use 2 avatars, just with half the time and with half the total amount of chakra output.


Yep, the old 'place an impossible burden of proof on the opposition, yet subject yourself to no such standard' trick. I don't have to 'prove' anything, all I have to do is show that my argument is more plausible than the alternative.



What in the world are you talking about? The only reason he used CT was to stall because he had gained both eyes and was getting prepared to use MT. Before that, he wasn't trying to stall, he was trying to actually fight naruto and sasuke which is why he doesn't use that. Madara has shown preta path even without eyes, even obito implied that he was capable of all the rinnegan techniques with just one of madara's eyes, and here you're claiming that madara as a juubi jin and his original eyes isn't capable of using shinra tensei?



Um, there are tons of things in this manga that are not explained, for one, it could just be that naruto and sasuke's jutsu are just too powerful, or hit him too quickly for him to absorb them. So his absorption ability is a non-factor in the fight. The same with his deva abilities, he had them, didn't use them which means the same thing or worse happens even if he uses them.



been over this whole 'try to meet my bias standard of what it means to prove something while I don't subject my own argumets to the same criticism' already.



Why isn't the weaker version of madara >> Sasuke as well?



Um...is this your first time reading the manga? That's what kishimoto does all the time, he makes characters make dumb decisions because of plot. Why didn't the bijuu just blast madara instead of using non-lethal physical hits? Why did naruto opt to blast mokuryu instead of wrestling with it, why didn't sasuke use any ninjutsu to stop

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? Why did madara even charge in in the first place? That has happened tons of times in the manga to tons of characters, it doesn't mean the outcome of the fight changes if they had done something differently. If Kishi had written it so that madara did do in the reader's eyes the most logical thing, he'd have made the bijuu do the most logical thing as well, or give them some kind of answer to madara's stuff if they didn't have it and the results would have been the same.


No, according to me, the outcome would have been the same. If kishi writes madara charging in with his fists, he also writes the bijuu not opting to do non-lethal taijutsu to counter, the results end up the same. The chapter was there to showcase the bijuu using combo moves and stuff, it wouldn't have happened if he allowed madara to use justsu that would require the bijuu do what they've always done.


Madara even says that the brothers can't bring out their full strength:

Spoiler

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Not only that, but Hashirama's chakra is so huge as an edo tensei, that it takes a while for it to come back to him which is why he says

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which means since the time madara absorbed his chakra till then, he still hadn't regened what was taken from him. so no, he wasn't at full power and didn't have his full reserves.



He created the juubi tree, it's possible he can't do that without the shinjuu outside of himself.
Yeah, juubito probably did have that option, it doesn't change anything due to the factors that made it a bad decision.

Yeah, so the barrier does expand its surface area when obito rips it, the surface area of the barrier just expands inward. THe barrier pushes whatever energy it gets hit with back like an elastic collision, if juubito's chakra arms were less powerful than the juubidama, it wouldn't have been able to pull the barrier to the extent in which it breaks, it would be like the bijuudama: deform the barrier to an extent, but the barrier doesn't break.




You'd have to prove that the chakra bird is stronger, and you'd have to believe that BM Naruto can do that with his own chakra since the alliance is being powered by his own chakra and he's more than capable of making as many clones as there are alliance members with his own chakra.
You'd also have to believe that for some inexplicable reason, naruto's bijuudama doesn't receive anywhere near the powerup that naruto's rasengan/rasenshuriken receives from using RSM.
The explosion size is only what tells you which is stronger if the explosions are comparable.




If you can't answer that question, then it just proves that your current manga view has a big hole in it.
The juubi's jinchuriki obviously does have a defense that's at least as great as the juubi's body... it's called the juubi avatar. Not only that, but juubito has shown that he can casually put up a defense that can withstand 4 giant juubidamas going off at once.

How does sasuke and naruto's modes competing at all against juubito's make any sense when their avatars can't even compare? The avatars get their power from the modes they are using, if narutos and sasuke's avatars are far inferior to juubito's then it logically follows that their modes are also far inferior to juubito's as well.


Is that gap really ridiculous for Naruto? If we take pre-rikudou naruto as an example, is there really such a huge gap between BSM Naruto's chakra arm attacks and base naruto's rasenshuriken?

Juubito didn't use any chakra arms to obliterate Hashirama's gates, those only manifested after the gates were obliterated. Plus, hashirama's gates withstood the juubidama, that tells you right there how powerful those chakra arms are.



Yep already refuted all of this, which shows that you don't have any reason to call that absurd at all. In fact, the mere point that you've decided to ommit the databook claiming that kaguya's chakra punch attack is the most powerful offensive attack shows how bad your own stance actually is.

lol. Your whole argument is just you pulling shit out your ass.

 

[Kunihi]

lol. Your whole argument is just you pulling shit out your ass.

Then it should be easy for you to logically disprove it then, rather than just throw around insults.

 

[rinnegan human puppet]

Then it should be easy for you to logically disprove it then, rather than just throw around insults.

theres nothing to disprove. when you think naruto's BD is more powerful than quad juubidama.

 

[KidGamer65]

I've already answered the bolded already, he fires another volley.

In the time it takes his GD to return to him Madara would already be capable of repelling them again.

There you go again with your misuse of the english language. Does understanding chakra LITERALLY have nothing to do with onmyouton?

What does it have to do with being able to use it? Oh wait, nothing. I suggest you get me hard evidence or just stop trying to argue this point.

Why is onmyouton the reason obito tanked the juubidama? The black spheres eat through anything they touch if it's not senjutsu because of onmyouton right? What happens when they don't have onmyouton? Do they all of a sudden lose the ability to do that to anything? Obviously not since he cuts through Sarutobi and his shuriken like butter, and it protects him from tobirama's attack without problems. So why wouldn't that be the mechanism in which it protects him from the juubidama?

Because there is zero proof that this mechanism you are wanking has the power to protect him from Bijuu Dama when it couldn't even completely eat through Sasuke's Susanoo and hit Naruto like intended. Tobirama's attack was blocked because the Gudo Dama are tough, which was stated in the Manga.

Um, no it doesn't. You told me a difference: that one caved it in, and one expanded it. You DID NOT tell me why it mattered. So nope, explain why it matters, else it's the same as me claiming that I'm stronger than The Rock because I never acted in a movie.

The barrier redirects energy by expanding and pushing the blast outside of the top. Can't expand if it's being torn apart from the inside. So once again, your nonsense example doesn't stand. Not even sure why I'm still replying to this point when the Juubi's feats aren't feats that go to Naruto. :lol

Relevance to the debate: FRS gets powered up X amount by RSM, therefore Bijuudama should also get powered up by X amount by RSM since the only thing that's changing is the chakra being used for both. Therefore if FRS gets powered up by X amount, and bijuudama should as well, yet the explosion we see at VoTe differes, then the bijuudama's explosion is simply an outlier or explained away by its different appearance.

Addressed below.

I can't literally 'prove' anything about this manga, as there's always some kind of argument that can be generated for even the most granted claims about the manga.

Save me the annoying ass semantics.

However, my ARGUMENT for the bolded would be simple:
1) Rasenshuriken > 25 SM Chou oodama rasengans based on the damage it did to kurama.
Each chou oodama rasengan is capable of 'hollowing out a mountain', therefore since the rasenshuriken's explosion isn't big enough to hollow out a mountain, it has to have at least that power contained in a smaller AoE in order for it to do more damage to kurama.

Ok? Bijuu Dama's explosions turn Mountains into practically nothing. 25 Mountain Hollowers would at best reduce a Mountain to rubble. FRS having that level of power condensed into a smaller ball doesn't mean that an FRS of the same size>>BD of the same size.

2) The craters it makes. FRS (even the half-completed one) creates a perfect sphereical crater, the same shape as its explosion. Normal explosions don't have the power to generate a crater as deep as the actual explosion, even when they occur below ground:

Spoiler

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And this isn't Bijuu Dama or anything near it's level so this isn't even a point worth bringing up. "Ordinary" explosion is a hell of a foolish generalization to make when all explosions differ in potency if they aren't the same kind of jutsu.

Plus, there are plenty of instances where characters without super durability get caught in an explosion and come out alive, while they would have been disintegrated had they been caught in the rasenshuriken's explosion. An example is beginning of part 2 sakura eating a paper bomb or Sasuke blocking C2 with his wing, there's lots of em.

A full sized Bijuu Dama though? No. Absolutely not. Not sure why you are comparing paper tags, C2 and Bijuu Dama but they are all different types of attacks, thus different potency all around.

When we actually see FRS's power when it's not compressed, its explosion takes up almost half the chibaku tensei crater.

Near the same size as the visible Mountain on the right, so in the same ballpark as a Bijuu Dama in terms of size alone.

I think I made it quite clear. Rasenshuriken's power gets amplified so much that it goes from 30 meter explosion to 10+ kilometer explosion. Nothing has changed other than the RSM chakra being substituted for the normal bijuu chakra, logically the bijuudama should get the same power increase. We don't see that because the explosion at VoTe isn't a normal one, it's compressed.

-FRS uncompressed explosion is shown to be larger than Mountains.
-Those explosions weren't wind spheres, including the standard FRS, meaning they weren't compressed in any way, shape or form. Or at the very least there is no reason to believe they were.

So no. FRS goes from a Bijuu Dama sized explosion to what you see there, and if we took your cut and paste seriously then that'd mean uncompressed FRS=regular Bijuu Dama in explosion size pre RSM, thus it'd be the same post RSM. Even if I were to concede and agree that Bijuu Dama was compressed, you still don't have a point since you'd have to show that the compression of power makes up for the difference in size between v2 Juubidama and Naruto's regular BD let alone Quad fucking Juubidama. so at the very best you've made the possibility that the BD's explosion power is stronger than it looks, not that it's compressed so much that if it wasn't it'd have a blast far larger than any version of the Juubidama.

Go back and reread what we are actually discussing. You were making the claim that chakra quantity is what makes Juubidara's chakra construct > Kakashi's even if both are using the same chakra. Now you are arguing something else since you're trying to make the claim that kakashi's is weaker because he mixes his own chakra into it. Which claim are you making now?

I'm just going to stop you right there, tell you to stop posting and start reading my replies before you post. Where did I say quantity had anything to do with the power of Susanoo? :lol Dafuq? You are the one who mentioned clones as if they had anything to do with this part of the discussion, and even if they did, their power gets weaker the more it's split as shown by Madara. I simply stated that Kakashi getting a small piece of Madara's power added on to his own doesn't make his own chakra=to Madara's and that's exactly what all those examples proved. Where did I say that the clones had weaker jutsu or that the people had weaker chakra because they themselves had less chakra? Nowhere.

Read. Please. Comprehend. Please.

Argument: abilities clones can use are based on the skill of the clone user.
Evidence: Naruto can only use a limited amount of clones on the battlefield while some of his clones gather natural energy because gathering natural energy requires immense chakra manipulation ability and skill. During his wind training's fuuton rasengan stage, Naruto could only manage 200 clones at a time, not because of his chakra reserves (because he had them out for hours) but because of his ability with the clones didn't allow him to do that.

There you go, that's my argument and that's what it's based on. If you want to argue against that, then feel free to do so.

-Ok.
-No. Because none of that has to do with the skill of the clones. Fukasaku said he can't use more than 2 clones because gathering NE is too hard. The same exact reason, save NE, is why Naruto can't train for FRS with over 200 clones. And get scans for the last part anyway.

-snip-

Like I said, I don't care for semantics.

....wait, are you saying that the original naruto was the one expending the mental energy to balance the right amount of natural energy with his own while he was fighting instead of his clones? That makes even less sense than your original assertion. That's like saying that the clones don't use their own jutsu, it's the real naruto who uses the jutsu through the clones. I don't think you believe that, and if you don't then your argument isn't true since the effort to focus the sennin chakra wouldn't be on the original, it would be on the clones. Which obviously is why the mental fatigue goes to the original only after the clones poof: because the original isn't experiencing it. So nope again.

Oh look. What a surprise. Your inability to properly comprehend my posts (and the Manga) strikes again.

-Where did I say the bold?
-None of the rest is relevant, especially since nobody ever claimed half of this stuff. Naruto can't make more than 3 clones while in battle because it interferes with the clones gathering Nature Energy. Meaning that Naruto cloning himself in battle splits either his or his clone's attention to thin. None of that has anything to do with the skill of the clone user. It's something you practically just made up using a scan that obviously says something else entirely to prove your point. Stop reaching. It's getting pretty ridiculous.

Um... this is how much of the avatar is left when mokuryu disappears:

Spoiler

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That's practically nothing, negligible, and that's after naruto has been fighting for a while in that mode, yet he still has enough chakra to maintain it and use clones, giant bijuudamas and more. So no, there's absolutely no reason naruto doesn't have the chakra capacity to make 2 clones with BM.

The bolded is just laughable, you've just sealed your own grave! If you're now saying a significant portion of the chakra naruto uses in order to use the avatar is drained as time goes on, then in no way shape or form can you claim that BM Naruto is unable to use 2 avatars since mokuryu almost completely drains his avatar, yet he uses it for chapters after as well as lots of other big jutsu, but he's also used 2 kyuubi avatars against juubito and maintained it for a while as well. So you'd have to concede that naruto would be able to use 2 avatars, just with half the time and with half the total amount of chakra output.

Fine, we'll say that chakra reserve isn't the only reason why he could use Avatar clones. Doesn't change anything for Madara though since he's already used a weaker version of his Avatar with clones in canon. Only difference between PS and V3 Susanoo is that V3 Susanoo requires far less chakra to manifest.

Yep, the old 'place an impossible burden of proof on the opposition, yet subject yourself to no such standard' trick. I don't have to 'prove' anything, all I have to do is show that my argument is more plausible than the alternative.

I don't need to subject myself to that standard in this case considering I'm not the one claiming anything in this portion of the argument.

What in the world are you talking about? The only reason he used CT was to stall because he had gained both eyes and was getting prepared to use MT. Before that, he wasn't trying to stall, he was trying to actually fight naruto and sasuke which is why he doesn't use that. Madara has shown preta path even without eyes, even obito implied that he was capable of all the rinnegan techniques with just one of madara's eyes, and here you're claiming that madara as a juubi jin and his original eyes isn't capable of using shinra tensei?

-Obito implied nothing.
-Preta Path isn't the strongest Rinngean technique.
-The rest doesn't matter. Even if you want to argue that he had Chibaku Tensei, his powers are weaker if he doesn't have both eyes meaning CT not being viable in that situation is irrelevant to CT being viable in a situation where Madara has both his eyes.

And this argument is still stupid since CT would've made them fight harder and would've helped him out more than running away and getting cut in half. Him using CT to stall against them doesn't change the fact that it's an offensive technique that doesn't need to be used for stalling.

Um, there are tons of things in this manga that are not explained, for one, it could just be that naruto and sasuke's jutsu are just too powerful, or hit him too quickly for him to absorb them. So his absorption ability is a non-factor in the fight. The same with his deva abilities, he had them, didn't use them which means the same thing or worse happens even if he uses them.

Oh look. Another flimsy argument.

-If Madara can absorb Amaterasu, there's no reason why he wouldn't be able to absorb Chidori or Rasengan as Amaterasu is more chakra intensive.
-Hit too quickly was only a factor when Sasuke used Ameno, not every other time Ninjutsu was used against him, but even then an excuse like that only applies for this situation and this situation only. The bold has been addressed way too many times.

Why isn't the weaker version of madara >> Sasuke as well?

And why is this question even relevant? Why would I be arguing that One eyed Madara>>Sasuke?

Um...is this your first time reading the manga? That's what kishimoto does all the time, he makes characters make dumb decisions because of plot. Why didn't the bijuu just blast madara instead of using non-lethal physical hits? Why did naruto opt to blast mokuryu instead of wrestling with it, why didn't sasuke use any ninjutsu to stop

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? Why did madara even charge in in the first place? That has happened tons of times in the manga to tons of characters, it doesn't mean the outcome of the fight changes if they had done something differently. If Kishi had written it so that madara did do in the reader's eyes the most logical thing, he'd have made the bijuu do the most logical thing as well, or give them some kind of answer to madara's stuff if they didn't have it and the results would have been the same.

Then stop being ridiculous and stop claiming that because X wasn't used, X wouldn't work in that situation, or rather on that person in general. "Kishimoto makes characters make dumb decisions because of plot". It would've been wiser for him to use Mokuton, but he didn't. If I used your first display of nonsense logic I'd be saying that Mokuton was less effective in that scenario than basic Taijutsu, hence why he didn't use it. If I used your second display of, contradicting at that, logic then I'd be saying that Madara's Mokuton definitely would've been a better choice no matter what course of action the Bijuu took, but he didn't use it because Kishi simply wrote it that way. Everything you are saying here does nothing but prove my point.

And I'm not sure what you think the bold and underlined is supposed to prove. It definitely doesn't prove your argument right or even support it in the slightest way. The results being the same is irrelevant. You claim that Madara didn't do X, so it wouldn't have improved his situation. Meaning you are saying that Madara using Taijutsu against the bijuu is just as effective as him using Ninjutsu regardless of whether or not they answer back with Taijutsu. :lol Please just stop. This is the dumbest argument you have right behind the whole Bijuu Dama>Juubidama argument.

No, according to me, the outcome would have been the same. If kishi writes madara charging in with his fists, he also writes the bijuu not opting to do non-lethal taijutsu to counter, the results end up the same. The chapter was there to showcase the bijuu using combo moves and stuff, it wouldn't have happened if he allowed madara to use justsu that would require the bijuu do what they've always done.

When you can tell me how the outcome being the same changes the fact that one would've been more effective than the other regardless of the final result being Madara's defeat then you can talk. Why Kishimoto wrote it the way he did is irrelevant. You think that if Madara saw the Bijuu, knew of their powers, and charged at them with Taijutsu instead of using Ninjutsu that he figured what he did is more effective than anything he could've possibly done.

Madara even says that the brothers can't bring out their full strength:

Spoiler

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Not only that, but Hashirama's chakra is so huge as an edo tensei, that it takes a while for it to come back to him which is why he says

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which means since the time madara absorbed his chakra till then, he still hadn't regened what was taken from him. so no, he wasn't at full power and didn't have his full reserves.

Yet Tobirama said they were near full power. Not sure what you think you are arguing here, but Madara didn't absorb his chakra when they first clashed with each other before Obito nuked them with Bijuu Dama and brought out the Shinju. Not sure why you are using that scan as evidence when Hashirama couldn't mold chakra because of the rods. So ever since he was stuck with the rods he was at a steady decline in chakra.

But too bad that's after PS and Mokujin were obliterated, not before. And Hashirama was perfectly fine during that phase of the battle.

He created the juubi tree, it's possible he can't do that without the shinjuu outside of himself.
Yeah, juubito probably did have that option, it doesn't change anything due to the factors that made it a bad decision.

They are two completely different things, so I'm gonna go ahead and say no. This doesn't make sense.

Yes, he did. And he made a bad decision. Does that mean it wouldn't have worked? No. Does that mean that it would've worked less efficiently than what he did? No considering if he had used Bijuu Dama he'd have zero enemies and would've won the war. So you don't have a legit argument on this field anymore so just stop trying. Labeling it a "bad decision" isn't going to change the illegitimacy of your argumentation.

Yeah, so the barrier does expand its surface area when obito rips it, the surface area of the barrier just expands inward. THe barrier pushes whatever energy it gets hit with back like an elastic collision, if juubito's chakra arms were less powerful than the juubidama, it wouldn't have been able to pull the barrier to the extent in which it breaks, it would be like the bijuudama: deform the barrier to an extent, but the barrier doesn't break.

Addressed this in the post above.

You'd have to prove that the chakra bird is stronger, and you'd have to believe that BM Naruto can do that with his own chakra since the alliance is being powered by his own chakra and he's more than capable of making as many clones as there are alliance members with his own chakra.
You'd also have to believe that for some inexplicable reason, naruto's bijuudama doesn't receive anywhere near the powerup that naruto's rasengan/rasenshuriken receives from using RSM.
The explosion size is only what tells you which is stronger if the explosions are comparable.

Lel. No, you claimed that the chakra bird cutting the tail is a feat that proves your point so you'd be the one to prove (and I'm not going to go on an annoying ass irrelevant rant about how nothing in this Manga can be proven :lol) the claim that you made. Not me. The fact that the Juubi has tanked an attack far stronger than what Naruto failed to tank already puts it's durability far above Naruto's.

(And it's stupidly funny and crazy how you are still grasping at these straws with this comparison even though that was V2 Juubi, not buffed up V2 Juubi or V3 Juubi so why the hell are you even mentioning it?)

The rest is simple math. The rest has been addressed above. The explosion size of an explosion made by two identical jutsu is what tells power. Always has been, always will be. No amount of petty grasping of straws will change that.

If you can't answer that question, then it just proves that your current manga view has a big hole in it.
The juubi's jinchuriki obviously does have a defense that's at least as great as the juubi's body... it's called the juubi avatar. Not only that, but juubito has shown that he can casually put up a defense that can withstand 4 giant juubidamas going off at once.

Aka fanfiction, because no Juubi Jin has a Juubi Avatar. They only have the ability to summon the Shinju as blatantly shown in the Manga. (then you have the nerve to talk about someone else's manga view, the same guy dumb enough to argue that Naruto's BD is tiers stronger than the Quad BD) Juubito can casually put up a defense that can withstand 4 Juubidama going off at once because of Onymoton, not because of this nonsense disintegration ability you speak of. His defense isn't that tough and the fact that Naruto can crack it with his fodder in comparison Bijuu Dama and his giant combo Rasengan with Minato only prove that.

Even if it was, you don't even have a shred of hard evidence the disintegration function is what protected him from the Juubidama. If it had Senjutsu in it neither would've worked. If it doesn't then both would be working so how are you sitting here claiming that the disintegration function is what protected him when it could've easily been the other way around? Which also makes a million times more sense than what you are claiming.

How does sasuke and naruto's modes competing at all against juubito's make any sense when their avatars can't even compare? The avatars get their power from the modes they are using, if narutos and sasuke's avatars are far inferior to juubito's then it logically follows that their modes are also far inferior to juubito's as well.

Lol if only Obito had the ability to manifest a Juubi Avatar. I'd like to see the Manga page. Cause the Manga I read showed the Juubi transforming into the Shinju, automatically like it always does when it reaches enough power, right when he released it. Hell, even if I agreed. That's another hole in your idiotic "since X wasn't used, X couldn't work" argument. By your beliefs, Obito could've manifested a Juubi Avatar and nuked the entire alliance low difficulty and simply cast Infinite Tsukuyomi once no one could resist.

:lol

And btw, if Obito really could call the Juubi out then he'd obviously be far above regular RSM Naruto and regular Rinnegan Sasuke. So how is this argument you are even making relevant when Naruto and Sasuke being on the level of a Juubi's Jinchuuriki isn't a stated fact in the Manga? It's a conclusion reached by analyzing feats. Give Obito that feat (that he hasn't shown or implied he can do) then it's a wrap for Naruto and Sasuke. He'd easily be above them.

Is that gap really ridiculous for Naruto? If we take pre-rikudou naruto as an example, is there really such a huge gap between BSM Naruto's chakra arm attacks and base naruto's rasenshuriken?

Is this a serious question? Is this a serious question? No really, is this a serious question? Base Naruto's FRS is easily stronger than BSM Naruto's chakra arm attacks. Easily. What noteworthy feats do Naruto's chakra arm attacks have again? :lol Your comparison is garbage anyway considering Base Naruto's FRS to BSM Naruto's chakra fist isn't a comparison comparable to RSM Naruto's YRS and Cloaked RSM Naruto's chakra punch as the gap in power between Base Naruto and BSM Naruto is far larger than the gap between RSM Naruto and cloaked RSM Naruto.

Juubito didn't use any chakra arms to obliterate Hashirama's gates, those only manifested after the gates were obliterated. Plus, hashirama's gates withstood the juubidama, that tells you right there how powerful those chakra arms are.

Nope. Read that back.

-Gates hit.
-They are wrecked.
-We see a glow near Obito's chakra arms.
-Then the glow intensifies and the chakra arms are shown on panel again.

And I really don't care considering the Juubi's physical strength>>>RSM Kurama's physical strength if you want to talk about feats.

Yep already refuted all of this, which shows that you don't have any reason to call that absurd at all. In fact, the mere point that you've decided to ommit the databook claiming that kaguya's chakra punch attack is the most powerful offensive attack shows how bad your own stance actually is.

I omitted the part about Kaguya because Kaguya is irrelevant to your comparison as she's not Naruto or Sasuke. She's someone levels above them. Not sure what you even expect me to take seriously in that idiotic portion of your argument. DB claiming that Kaguya's chakra punch attack is the strongest offense helps you how again? Because feats show that it isn't the strongest offensive attack. So do BZ's own statements.


Fact of the matter is, Naruto's explosion is dwarfed by ridiculous amounts when referring to the Juubi's V3 BD let alone that x4 and probably then some. "Lol it's compressed" isn't an argument that supports the notion "RSM BD>>>Quad BD" when you can't prove that the compression of Naruto's attack was that severe. Your FRS argument is also idiotic considering the only reason FRS has ever been compressed is because of the wind sphere. Those weren't wind spheres shown when Super Bijuu RS exploded. So the amount of evidence you have for this compression is

ZERO. Your point is foolish and anyone who isn't ridiculously biased knows that it is. The fact I'm even arguing that RSM shoots Naruto's regular Bijuu Dama from being a fraction of what occurred at VoTE, or even a fraction of the combo Flash Bijuu Dama to being far stronger than the Quad Perfect Susanoo Sized Fucking Juubidama is mind boggling in itself.

 

[4 Sword Style]

theres nothing to disprove. when you think naruto's BD is more powerful than quad juubidama.

This guy is saying Naruto's BD is > The Juubi's?

 

[KidGamer65]

This guy is saying Naruto's BD is > The Juubi's?

That's not even the worst part of it.

To summarize his whole idiotic power ranking:

BDFRS>>>>Bijuu RS>RSM standard Bijuu Dama=PS Chidori>>>Naruto's Avatar's tail strikes=Sasuke's sword strikes>>Naruto's Avatar's fist strikes=Sasuke's Avatar's fist strikes>>Quad Juubidama>>>>V3 Juubidama>>>>>V2 Juubidama.

He thinks

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>Juubidama in any form. :lol Lord help us.

 

[Sageflash]

Naruto is the GOAT.

Therefore, Naruto destorys Maddy

 

[4 Sword Style]

That's not even the worst part of it.

To summarize his whole idiotic power ranking:

BDFRS>>>>Bijuu RS>RSM standard Bijuu Dama=PS Chidori>>>Naruto's Avatar's tail strikes=Sasuke's sword strikes>>Naruto's Avatar's fist strikes=Sasuke's Avatar's fist strikes>>Quad Juubidama>>>>V3 Juubidama>>>>>V2 Juubidama.

He thinks

You must be registered for see links

>Juubidama in any form. :lol Lord help us.

I was gonna ask how but I think we can leave it at he's breaking him arm reaching.

 

[rinnegan human puppet]

Naruto is the GOAT.

Therefore, Naruto destorys Maddy

IT one shots.